3 "Laanatti"

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anajmi
Posts: 13417
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#91

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:12 am

If the prophet said Hazrat Ali was going to be his successor and since Hazrat Ali was not, doesn't that mean the prophecy of the prophet immediately after his time turned out to be false because of some corrupt people?

Today, the corrupt people are much more powerful, does that mean that none of the prophet's prophecies will come true? Does that mean that Muslims are doomed??

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#92

Unread post by porus » Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:18 am

Originally posted by anajmi:
If the prophet said Hazrat Ali was going to be his successor and since Hazrat Ali was not, doesn't that mean the prophecy of the prophet immediately after his time turned out to be false because of some corrupt people?

No prophecy was fulfilled because Ali was his successor as Imam and Wasi. Imamat is succession. Caliphate is not.

Do you know if Prophet chose his successor or that he used the word Khalifa for his successor?

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#93

Unread post by porus » Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:18 am

Please read as:

No! The prophecy was fulfilled because Ali was his successor as Imam and Wasi. Imamat is succession. Caliphate is not

Hyderabadi
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#94

Unread post by Hyderabadi » Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:22 am

"If I cannot trust the muslims closest to the prophet, how can I trust any other muslim in matters of religion"

--- The closest to the prophet are his Ahlebait and what is your problem in trusting them.

kabeer19922001
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#95

Unread post by kabeer19922001 » Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:07 am

Dear Hyderabadi

I repeat Muslim First's query in a different way. Which line of Imamamat do you think is correct. The Bohris, Shia 12ers or the Agha Kahani. Given the cloice, I would opt for the Agha Kahani's. He has given his followers exemptions from namaz, fasting etc and he can trace his lineage to the Prophet (PBUH).

Agin you have not answered my earlier e-mail. Do you still think "matam' is a social event only.!!!

Regards

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#96

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:26 pm

.
Br. Khan (Kabeer)
AS

You or I will not get an answer from Br.Hyerabadi.

He doe'nt know which shia faction is rightexcept one he follows!

Correct path would be to follow Ali RA. He followed path of Qur'an and Rasul SAW. Same path followed by other compainions.

Wasalaam
.

Hyderabadi
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#97

Unread post by Hyderabadi » Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:33 pm

"I repeat Muslim First's query in a different way. Which line of Imamamat do you think is correct. The Bohris, Shia 12ers or the Agha Kahanis".

---- I'm born a sunni muslim (Hanafi).I started reading/understading and discussing with learned people of various sects.

I'm a muslim and would not like to restrict myself or identify myself with sects and subsects.
It is not the teaching of the Quran or Prophet or the learned Imams.

Based on all my study this far, i fully agree that Ali(A.S.) is the successor of the Prophet and imamat is among his lineage.

Five generations from Ali (A.S.) to Imam Jaffer (A.S.) were good enough for all the followers to get a clear understanding of the teachings of Islam.It is also till this point, the majority of the followers were not divided.

The various sects that happened on the issue of succession (Imamat) will not matter much as the foundation laid till this point is a good enough to adhere to.

If there are differences and sects within shias, so are within the sunnis and if you compare the shariat that is followed within the four main sunni groups, there are a hell lot of differences.

To devide there are 72 odd sects and subsects, each fancying on their beliefs, but in fact there is only one ummah according to Quran.

Hyderabadi
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#98

Unread post by Hyderabadi » Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:44 pm

"Correct path would be to follow Ali RA. He followed path of Qur'an and Rasul SAW. Same path followed by other compainions".

--- The first part is correct.

Had all the companions followed the path of Quran and Rasul SAW, there would not have been differences.

Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#99

Unread post by Alislam » Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:11 pm

________________________________________________

Prophet: I am the City of Knowledge and Ali is its Gate.
________________________________________________

Prophet :Hussaino minni, wa ana minal hussain
(Hussain is from me and i'm from hussain)

kabeer19922001
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#100

Unread post by kabeer19922001 » Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:58 am

Dear Brother Hyderabadi

I am even more confused with your reply. You have made a pretty general statement i.e follow Ali (RA). If you ask any of the Shia sects, they will tell you that they follow Ali (RA). So why such huge differences ????

Any way,I pray my 5 prayers, give zakat, have done Hajj, try to follow the Sunnah as much as possible, keep fasts in the month of Ramamdhan, generally try not to upset my colleagues and family, try and inculcate Islamic beliefs to my children. What else I should do as an ordinary Muslim to ensure I follow Ali (RA).

Of course I don't believe in matam, offering prayers at graves etcetc

Regards

Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#101

Unread post by Alislam » Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:07 am

"Any way,I pray my 5 prayers, give zakat, have done Hajj, try to follow the Sunnah as much as possible, keep fasts in the month of Ramamdhan, generally try not to upset my colleagues and family, try and inculcate Islamic beliefs to my children. What else I should do as an ordinary Muslim to ensure I follow Ali (RA).

---- You are good to yourself, family, and the society.
You are a good muslim if you are able to do all that.

kabeer19922001
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#102

Unread post by kabeer19922001 » Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:10 am

The various sects that happened on the issue of succession (Imamat) will not matter much as the foundation laid till this point is a good enough to adhere to.

Brother Hyderabadi, you obviously have no idea ove the extent the "foundation stone" you refer to has been chnaged by the three Shia Sects. The current dai/Imam of these 3 groups have made their own interpretations, each secretly cursing the other. There are 3 distinct philosophies and I am sorry you cannot just sit back and say follow Ali (RA). You have to go with one of these groups or admit all three are wrong.

If there are differences and sects within shias, so are within the sunnis and if you compare the shariat that is followed within the four main sunni groups, there are a hell lot of differences.

I am aware of some of the differences between the four schools of thought. But these differnces are not as fundamental as the 3 shia schools of thought.

Regards

kabeer19922001
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#103

Unread post by kabeer19922001 » Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:18 am

Dear Ali

But is being a good muslim enough. According to the Bohra belief no one can be a good mumin unless he/she professes allegaince to the current dai etc.

As to what I have written, these acts are probably done by a vast majority of muslims. So why is heaven reserved for the Bohri's.

Regards

Hyderabadi
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#104

Unread post by Hyderabadi » Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:29 am

""If you ask any of the Shia sects, they will tell you that they follow Ali (RA). So why such huge differences ????""

All sunni sects say they follow Quran and Prophet of Sunnah, so why such huge differences ???
It is the differences that had divided ummah into 72 sects.

On top of this there are differences within the same sects and subsects based on language etc.,
For Ex :An Arab esp. from Saudi consider himself superior than a non-Arab, A syed consider himself superior to non-syed.

Hyderabadi
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#105

Unread post by Hyderabadi » Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:40 am

""I am aware of some of the differences between the four schools of thought. But these differnces are not as fundamental as the 3 shia schools of thought""

You are downplaying the differences with the four sunni madhabs and trying to outblow the diff within shia sects.
The FUNDAMENTAL agreement for all shias is the walayat/Imamat of Ali(A.S.) and all the three shia schools that you are currently talking accept upto Imam Jafer.

kabeer19922001
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#106

Unread post by kabeer19922001 » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:26 am

Brother Hyderabadi

Ok so I agree for arguments sake that the Sunni's have got it all wrong and now accept the Shia beliefs. It is not important to just say that all the Shia sects were united up to Imam Jafar. The reality is that there have been major splits and each split considers itself to be correct.

Please help me, how do I follow Imam Jafar without following one of these sects. You have concluded based on your reseach that Ali (RA) should have been the true successor. Have you ventured forward to find out who now are the true followers of Ali (RA).

We will keep the Sunni differences for a seperate thread. As I was a Bohri I am more interested about the Shia sects.

Interestingly, how has your life changed after you found out that Ali (RA) should have been the successor??? Are you still a Sunni ??

Regards

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#107

Unread post by tahir » Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:24 pm

If there are differences and sects within shias, so are within the sunnis and if you compare the shariat that is followed within the four main sunni groups, there are a hell lot of differences.
I am just curious to know that like the shia sects, is marriage prohibited between different sects of sunnis? Are there such sunni mosques which are demarcated by school of thoughts (like there are bohras mosques, aga khani jamatkhanas) and do the various sunni sub sects strictly pray in their own mosques?

If a Bohra from India goes to Saudi Arab for haj, he will strictly stick to other bohras. He will not mingle with other shias like Iranians and will not dine or pray with them. However, do sunnis too observe such strict sectorial difference? For instance, will a sunni from India hesitate in entering and praying in a wahabi mosque in Saudi Arab since it belongs to a different school of thought? OR would the wahabis prohibit him from praying in their mosques (other than the 2 harams)?

Here is an extreme instance of sub sectorial segregation. A Dawoodi Bohra, in her daughter's marriage, can invite people of altogether different faiths (hindus, christians, sikhs etc.). However, he is not allowed to invite a Nagpuri Bohra. It should be noted that Nagpuuri Bohras not only belong to the same faith but the same sect, sub sect and same sub sub sect. They just parted from the 47th dai. If a dawoodi invites a nagpuri and it is repoted to the city amil, the poor host will have to submit an apology and will suffer humiliation. I just want to know if similar "differences" occur among the sunni sects.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#108

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:54 pm

Br Tahir
AS
I will try to anser some of your questions

is marriage prohibited between different sects of sunnis?

No. A muslim can marry a muslim of different Madhab.

Generally it is recommended that you stick to one Madhab. This to prevent picking and choosing obligations which coould be easier to follow in one Madhab then the other.

You are free to change your Madhab.

Are there such sunni mosques which are demarcated by school of thoughts

Yes. In India there are now Mosque designated as Devbendi and Barlevi. This was pointed out to me when I visited India.There are some problems and have become more pronounced due to influence of fundamandilists.

will a sunni from India hesitate in entering and praying in a wahabi mosque in Saudi Arab since it belongs to a different school of thought

No.

OR would the wahabis prohibit him from praying in their mosques

No.

I have not seen anybody telling anybody not to pray in Sunni Mosque.

In America it has become much more easier to go to any sunni mosque and pry there. It does not matter which style you pray (hands tied in front or on side). In fact we have Shia's come to our mosque and pray.

If I missed any, please ask.

Wasalaam
.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#109

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:05 pm

.
Br. Tahir
Your last question
------just want to know if similar "differences" occur among the sunni sects

Suniis do not this problem but in India I have seen this problem at Cast level. There are sunnis who also subscribe to cast that is from where they came from such as Ghanch, or Memon etec. etc. They ave there own governing Body. They stick together since thy have common language and culture. It is easier for marriage etc. If you do something wrong then you might be thrown out of perticular cast and therefor might not be welcome in mosque this cast might have built. I do not think this has to with religion.

Wasalaam
.

Hyderabadi
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#110

Unread post by Hyderabadi » Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:26 pm

""Are there such sunni mosques which are demarcated by school of thoughts (like there are bohras mosques, aga khani jamatkhanas) and do the various sunni sub sects strictly pray in their own mosques""

--- Some mosques in india and pakistan are mentioning it as 'Ahle Hadees masjid or Ahle Sunnat wal Jammat masjid.

Hyderabadi
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#111

Unread post by Hyderabadi » Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:37 pm

""Interestingly, how has your life changed after you found out that Ali (RA) should have been the successor??? ""

--- The tolerant islam was unfolded on me after i found that Ali(AS) is the real successor of the Prophet (AS).

"" Are you still a Sunni ??""

---- As i mentioned earlier, i would not like to be associated or called as belonging to a particular sect.
An identity of a muslim is sufficient for me.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#112

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:53 pm

Expaination.

'Ahle Hadees masjid

Ahle hadees and salafi in india are one who do not follow any imams blindly or in other words they are gair muqallid ,known as Ahle hadees but in saudi ,malaysia,indinesia ,UK,USA known as salafia.

Ahle Sunnat wal Jammat masjid:-A sunni mosque following one of four Imaams.

There is no harm in praying in any one of them and I do not think anybody will bother you.

Wasalaam
.

Hyderabadi
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#113

Unread post by Hyderabadi » Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:59 pm

""There is no harm in praying in any one of them and I do not think anybody will bother you""

--- Here we are not discussing whether to pray or not in them.
The point here was that the mosques are being tagged as belonging to so and so.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#114

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:13 pm

.
Br. Hyerabadi
AS
Now that " The tolerant islam was unfolded on you after you found that Ali(AS) is the real successor of the Prophet (AS). ", Please tell.

Which way your Namaaz has changed?

Wasalaam

Hyderabadi
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#115

Unread post by Hyderabadi » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:11 am

""Which way your Namaaz has changed?""

--- It has became more meaningful and it is no more a 'Slave Namaaz' or a 'Trader Namaaz'.

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#116

Unread post by tahir » Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:45 am

MF,
Thank you for the detailed reply. I can only conclude that the splits in sunnis is not even half as institutionalised as it is in shias.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#117

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:33 am

.Br. Hyderabadi
Please explain 'Slave Namaaz' or a 'Trader Namaaz'. . I have never heard that expression.

Wasalaam
.

Hyderabadi
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#118

Unread post by Hyderabadi » Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:55 am

Br MF,

""Please explain 'Slave Namaaz' or a 'Trader Namaaz'. . I have never heard that expression""

--- Hazrat Ali(AS) described the types of people who pray to Almighty.

There are people who Pray Allah to gain His Favors, this is the worship of traders; while there are some who worship Him to keep themselves free from His Wrath, this is the worship of slaves; a few who obey Him out' of their sense of gratitude and obligations, this is the worship of free and noble men.

S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#119

Unread post by S. Insaf » Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:49 pm

Though I, as a Bohra reformist is not allowed to pray by Sayedna's men in any Bohra mosque and bury my deads in any Bohra cemetary I and like me many other reformists are welcomed to pray in any other Muslim mosqes and bury our deads in any of Muslim cemetary.
Whatever the differences in religious practices, I find the fundamental humanity in the Muslims other than Dawoodi Bohras.
Sayedna Saheb takes the atmost advantage of Muslim Aligarh University, Haj Committee, Muslim Personal Law Board etc. but never allows any non-Bohra Muslims to pray in the Bohra mosques or bury his dead in Bohra cemetaries. I think he is the one who is creating a division among Muslims and his own followers.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: 3 "Laanatti"

#120

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:26 pm

.Br. Hyderabadi
AS
Very good explaination. Thank you. So your outlook on reward of Namaaz has changed. Now please tell me if your procedure on Namaaz or recitations within Namaaz has changed? Is Namaaz process significantly deferent then your previous Hanfi way of praying?

Do you go to different mosque?

Wasalaam
.