marriage

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
dinkychick
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:01 am

marriage

#1

Unread post by dinkychick » Sun Nov 27, 2005 4:32 pm

I would like to ask why is when you reach the age of about 18, why are they so interested in people getting married? why is it such an issue?

Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 4:01 am

Re: marriage

#2

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Sun Nov 27, 2005 4:55 pm

Here are some interesting facts in the USA

The likelihood of teenagers' having intercourse increases steadily with age; about 4 in 5 young people have intercourse while teenagers.

Most young people begin having sex in their mid-to-late teens, about 8 years before they marry; more than half of 17-year-olds have had intercourse.

While 93% of teenage women report that their first intercourse was voluntary, one-quarter of these young women report that it was unwanted.

A sexually active teenager who does not use contraceptives has a 90% chance of becoming pregnant within one year.

Every year 3 million teens--about 1 in 4 sexually experienced teens--acquire an STD.

In a single act of unprotected sex with an infected partner, a teenage woman has a 1% risk of acquiring HIV, a 30% risk of getting genital herpes and a 50% chance of contracting gonorrhea.

Teens have higher rates of gonorrhea than do sexually active men and women aged 20-44.

In some studies, up to 15% of sexually active teenage women have been found to be infected with the human papillomavirus, many with a strain of the virus linked to cervical cancer.

Teenage women have a higher hospitalization rate than older women for acute pelvic inflammatory disease (PID), which is most often caused by untreated gonorrhea or chlamydia. PID can lead to infertility and ectopic pregnancy.

75% of teens 15-19 are unmarried by the time their pregnancies end.

13% of all U.S. births are to teens.

78% of births to teens occur outside of marriage.

-- that means 10.14% of all kids in the US are bastards.

Teens now account for 31% of all nonmarital births, down from 50% in 1970.

1/4 of teenage mothers have a second child within 2 years of their first.

Nearly 4 in 10 teen pregnancies (excluding those ending in miscarriages) are terminated by abortion. There were about 274,000 abortions among teens in 1996.

Is it any wonder that parents these days are afraid of their daughters either becoming sexually active, pregnant or infected with some disease. That is why they want their daughters to get married as soon as possible. They still believe that marriage will become a road block for promiscuity. And they are correct to a very large extent.

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: marriage

#3

Unread post by tahir » Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:26 pm

In this part of the globe (India), such early marriages has resulted in a population explotion.

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: marriage

#4

Unread post by tahir » Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:28 pm

"explosion" that is

anajmi
Posts: 13417
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#5

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:05 pm

Yes that is another problem that needs to be solved. Parents can make a choice, get their daughter married off soon and prevent embarassment or keep her at home thinking about the population explosion. Which one would you choose?

These are two big problems with their solutions intelinked. Ilm(knowledge) of Deen and Duniya can help solve both.

Average Bohra
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#6

Unread post by Average Bohra » Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:54 pm

Parents can make a choice, get their daughter married off soon and prevent embarassment or keep her at home thinking about the population explosion. Which one would you choose?
Very primitive thought process; not uncommon to one destined to living in intellectual bondage. Parents can make a choice to give their children a choice to when they feel they are ready for marriage, and to whom. This is simply not about the daughter or preventing
embarrassment
, and it is shocking to hear someone relate it to the latter and diminish the significance of the event.

If parents can take accountability for raising their children with good morals and ethics (regardless of their religious affiliation), then the process ceases to be a problem and as traumatic an event.

Incidentally, Muslims and Hindus exclusively use the term off as in married <u>off </u>. Parents relinquish responsibility and accountability to prevent "embarrassment" at too early an age.

anajmi
Posts: 13417
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#7

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:02 am

Average Bohra,

You are a ------ moron and you should keep out of intelligent conversation cause you are incapable of having one.

Read my complete post and then if you understand butt in or stay the ------ out!!

<small>[ 11-28-2005, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: Admin ]</small>

anajmi
Posts: 13417
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#8

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:05 am

For those who get manipulated by Islamophobes like the Average fuck over here, I repeat my post. My COMPLETE POST.
Yes that is another problem that needs to be solved. Parents can make a choice, get their daughter married off soon and prevent embarassment or keep her at home thinking about the population explosion. Which one would you choose?

These are two big problems with their solutions intelinked. Ilm(knowledge) of Deen and Duniya can help solve both.

allbird
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 am

Re: marriage

#9

Unread post by allbird » Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:16 am

Originally posted by anajmi:
Average Bohra,

You are a fucking moron and you should keep out of intelligent conversation cause you are incapable of having one.

Read my complete post and then if you understand butt in or stay the fuck out!!
ADMIN BAN THIS Chookra !!! Just like your did it to M052 and trance....same rule applies here doesn't it.

mature
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#10

Unread post by mature » Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:40 am

hi i just read some of the posts of moomin052 and i do not know why he was banned ,i dont know but in all fairness kindly show me some of his abusive posts.please admin reply

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: marriage

#11

Unread post by tahir » Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:17 am

Originally posted by Average Bohra:
Incidentally, Muslims and Hindus exclusively use the term off as in married <u>off </u>. Parents relinquish responsibility and accountability to prevent "embarrassment" at too early an age.
Absolutely true. Agrarian societies are heavily patriarchal. Girls are considered as property (like a cow) and parents attach their honour with the moral conduct of daughters. Industrialisation and modern education hasn't changed that instinct much.

anajmi
Posts: 13417
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#12

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:08 pm

The same applies to a large extent even to the western societies. Kids as soon as they are 16 or older are expected to get out of the house and start living on their own.

Those who are still living with their parents after this age are looked upon as weird.

That is the primary reason for so many bastards being born over here. At least in Hindu and Muslim households the girls are kept at home till they are married off.

anajmi
Posts: 13417
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#13

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:24 pm

The concept of the girl being a burden is predominantly a Hindu one with its influence on some ill educated Muslim societies in India.

However, ilm(knowledge) of Deen and Duniya can help alleviate these issues.

jamanpasand
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am

Re: marriage

#14

Unread post by jamanpasand » Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:59 pm

Porus
Admin's reason for banning these illustrious kothari mumins was their use of objectionable language, not the subject matter itself. I think.
Unquote

Closing “ Engineer’s Healthâ€

jamanpasand
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am

Re: marriage

#15

Unread post by jamanpasand » Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:22 pm

A Najmi Chookra

You are getting out of hand again !!!

Don’t stop in the middle. You need a complete course of Baburao colour pills ?

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#16

Unread post by porus » Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:30 pm

[quote]Originally posted by jamanpasand:

Closing “ Engineer’s Healthâ€

Admin
Posts: 678
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2000 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#17

Unread post by Admin » Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:53 pm

Anajmi,

May we pls request you not to use foul language. thank you.

Janampasand,

You've been using this board for quite sometime. We hope you appreciate the freedom and opportunity it provides to express your thoughts and ideas. Pls do NOT condemn the whole site just becuase of your personal animosity towards certain individuals.

To everyone,
You all must agree that this site provides a unique forum for free and open discussions of issues and ideas. It is upto each one of you to maintain the dignity and decorum of debate. May we appeal to you to use this freedom and opportunity responsibly.

Thank you.

<small>[ 11-28-2005, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Admin ]</small>

jamanpasand
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am

Re: marriage

#18

Unread post by jamanpasand » Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:11 pm

I don’t have personal animosity with anyone. It is not their point of views but stupid non-sence writing all over the board that makes you sick. A good example is a few posts away with the four letters word used more than once
Non-action against some members and strong action against other is a double standard.
No other person can judge this better than yourself. Double standard will not help you in the long run and this reflect on the site as a whole.

kalim
Posts: 107
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#19

Unread post by kalim » Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:09 pm

I was on a conference and then several out-of-town meetings this last month and just caught up on the message board. It seems I missed a few weeks worth of lanats, abuse and ridicule. Reading the mails by bohra fanatics confuses me: should I laugh at their lack of imagination, or shake with fright at the thought of meeting one of these fellows in flesh-and-blood? I would never know when they would resort to violence and administer their favorite catchall argument: a severe thrashing.

Anyway, I fully support the Admin in banning them from the board. If they can't behave themselves then they have no right to be here. We have many people on this board, not sharing the Progressive view point, yet maintaining proper decorum. Spot is one example, so are the Sunni participants on this board, like Muslim First. I have personally learned a lot from everybody but am greatly turned off when a lanat hurling fanatic jumps into a discussion, sprinkling all and sundry with his unholy words.

I urge all members, specially the Progressives, to be patient and not reply hastily to such people. We can try our best to set an example of decent, rational debate, even if we do not agree with each other. That way we will not have the orthodox accusing us of the same behavior we accuse them of.

kalim
Posts: 107
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#20

Unread post by kalim » Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:41 pm

I agree with Average Bohra and Tahir that the language most conservative religious people use for women and marriage makes it appear that women are nothing but property, to be "given off" in marriage as they (the parents) please. Unfortunately this very attitude promotes inequalities and retards the growth of women, and hence society as a whole. How much ever the Muslims trumpet that Islam was the "first" to give women "freedom" the ground reality is that today the position of women in current Muslim society is not very good.

However, there are exceptions. My mother is highly educated, with a PhD to her credit, and worked for many years in as a research scientist in a field dominated by men. She faced numerous difficulties, including problems from our bohra neighbors and relatives, but she persisted and was very successful in her field. The worst incident I remember happened when a miyasaheb from Jamea said in a Ramadan bayan that women are like flowers, their fragrance (kushboo) to be "enjoyed" by their husband only and they should not, hence, under any circumstances, work outside the home. This caused quite a furore in our family and my mother was under a lot of pressure to quit her job.

Marriage is a human institution and there is no reason why it should not change with changing times. Today, a bohra girl is just out of high-school when her parents start worrying about her marriage. Marriage at such an early age is most unhealthy as it stifles the girl's education and urge to do something meaningful. Today, raising a family may not be the most meaningful thing a girl may want to do. She may want to work and have an independent income (and sense of accomplishment) of her own before she has children.

The issue of sex before marriage is also blown out of proportion. Sex is a normal part of a healthy life and if young people's sexual needs are curbed by outdated and ancient taboos they may manifest themselves in a most unhealthy way. Teenagers need to be taught the dangers inherent in unprotected sex, but do not need be engulfed in a guilt complex about something so natural. Proper sex-education can help eliminate many health risks: it is better to be informed of the precautions one needs to take rather than wait till it is too late.

As Tahir has pointed out often, bohras tend to marry early and this promotes conservatism. Once one has a family and children then the fire of youth is extinguished and household matters prevent the development of a rational and progressive attitude. Often one sees that the ideas a person develops in his childhood never change: it is as if he continues to believe in Santa Claus throughout his life, his intellect never maturing in tandem with his physical body. In my personal experience most bohras are woefully uninformed about anything but their "dukan"/job and masjid/markaz. Most don't even care. It would be interesting to see how much of this orthodoxy stems directly from their early marriage and if the priesthood is deliberately encouraging bohras to marry early for this very reason.

dinkychick
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#21

Unread post by dinkychick » Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:58 pm

To begin, can i just point out that, before people start saying abusive stuff they should take a long hard look at themselves! and now more to the point,reading all the statisics and everything else, i still am unable to understand why marriage seems more like a duty then something that should be one on the things that makes you most happy!

jamanpasand
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am

Re: marriage

#22

Unread post by jamanpasand » Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:20 pm

One of the advantages of early marriage is that your Children become adult while you still are below fifty. This keeps the generation gap to a minimum and you have very open communication with them.

dinkychick
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#23

Unread post by dinkychick » Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:38 pm

oh yeh, definitly on that sense i do agree, as you would be able to relate to your children, however my point is that im not against marriage at all, i just want to know why it is such a issue?

Average Bohra
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#24

Unread post by Average Bohra » Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:11 am

Jamanpasand,

It is not the age gap that prevents open communication with your children, but rather the societal pressures and religious values of the parents. Again, Hindus / Muslims and predominantly Asian communities generally favor a dictatorial approach when raising their children. Allow me to quote a post from Anajmi to illustrate my point:
A lot of years ago when I was young, my mom said "Go to school"…So I went to school. Then my mom told me "Go to college", so I went to college….. Then my mom said "Find a good job", so I found a good job….. Then my mom said "Now get married", so I got married.

anajmi
Posts: 13417
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#25

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:01 am

This is an example of how Average Bohra lies, misinterprets and quotes out of context. Let me post the actual text from which the Average fuck has taken stuff out of context. Here it is.

This post appeared in a thread called literal interpretaion of the quran.
This is the post that I started to discuss "Literal Interpretations of the Quran"

I would like to present some analogies as to what the "scholars" of the "literal interpretations" of the quran say about the "literal interpretations" of the quran.

A lot of years ago when I was young, my mom said "Go to school". So I went to school. Now the "scholar" of the "literal interpretation" of the quran would say that I literally interpreted what my mom told me and went to school so I am a Saudi/Wahabi, ignorant/hypocrite.

Then she told me, "Study hard and pass your exam", so I studied hard and passed my exam. Now the "scholar" of the "literal interpretation" of the quran would say that I literally interpreted what my mom told me and studied hard and passed my exam, so I am a Saudi/Wahabi, ignorant/hypocrite.

Then my mom told me "Go to college", so I went to college. Now the "scholar" of the "literal interpretation" of the quran would say that I literally interpreted what my mom told me and went to college, so I am a Saudi/Wahabi, ignorant/hypocrite.

Then my mom said "Find a good job", so I found a good job. Now the "scholar" of the "literal interpretation" of the quran would say that I literally interpreted what my mom told me and found a good job, so I am a Saudi/Wahabi, ignorant/hypocrite.

Then my mom said "Now get married", so I got married. Now the "scholar" of the "literal interpretation" of the quran would say that I literally interpreted what my mom told me and got married, so I am a Saudi/Wahabi, ignorant/hypocrite.

Now let us come to the quran.

The quran says, "Establish regular prayer." So true muslims establish regular prayers. Now the "scholar" of the "literal interpretation" of the quran would say that muslims have literally interpreted the quran and established regular prayers, so they are Saudi/Wahabi, ignorant/hypocrite.

Just an example of Ignorance/Hypocrisy of the "Scholars" of the "Literal Interpretations" of the quran.

If there is anyone out there who has an example of an ayah which has been literally interpreted to mean something other than what it was supposed to mean, please post it over here with your interpretation so that all those who are ignorant can be enlightened.

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: marriage

#26

Unread post by tahir » Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:02 am

Originally posted by Kalim:
Today, a bohra girl is just out of high-school when her parents start worrying about her marriage. Marriage at such an early age is most unhealthy as it stifles the girl's education and urge to do something meaningful. Today, raising a family may not be the most meaningful thing a girl may want to do. She may want to work and have an independent income (and sense of accomplishment) of her own before she has children.
Oh!! that reminds me of another issue. In recent times, marriage failures among people who marry early has become very frequent.

Modern bohras, being more liberal than other communities, usually allow the girl to exercise her choice among the set of guys he is shown by her parents. So the girl atleast has a limited choice in the matter of "whom" to marry if not in "when" to marry. This actually does more harm than good. In her late teens (15 to 17) a girl is not emotionaly mature. Her preferences are volatile and are heavily influenced by the superficial things like physical traits of the boy and his material possessions. After a couple of years when she grows up, her preferences are altered and become stable. She starts valuing character and substance more than looks and money. BUt by this time she is already in a deep and firm grip of this rigid social institution called marriage. The social set up doesn't allow easy divorce and even if it does, it becomes difficult for a divorcee girl to find another life partner of choice if she belongs to a conservative community of any of the mid sized Indian towns where a mojority of bohras live.

So what does she do? She looks for fulfilments outside the marital bond if she is not the one who can suffocate and suffer silently. The cases of adultery among bohras are on a sharp rise. In big cities where bohras are less conservative, this phenominon fortunately results into high divorce rates (liberating!!) rather than adultery.

anajmi
Posts: 13417
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#27

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:07 am

Admin,

I apologize for using this kind of language. I don't like doing it, but there are people on this board who have been lying and misrepresenting and quoting out of context.

This is going to be my last post on this message board. You can delete or edit my previous posts.

Thank you for bearing me for all these years.

mature
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#28

Unread post by mature » Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:14 am

moulana ali once said that all the people who will do his adawat will bastards(in real sense).reading the posts of tahir and kalim who advocate free sex and are against marriage its seems he is being proven right by the forward and rational progressive thinkers

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: marriage

#29

Unread post by tahir » Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:16 am

Originally posted by Average Bohra:

Again, Hindus / Muslims and predominantly Asian communities generally favor a dictatorial approach when raising their children.
This used to be the order even in the USA just half a century back. The rampant "confirmism" inspired the entire counter culture revolution of 60s- hippism, sex, drugs and rock n roll. To give an idea, I can't resist putting this song "Mother" (1979) from Pink Floyd.

Mother, do you think they'll drop the bomb?
Mother, do you think they'll like this song?
Mother, do you think they'll try to break my balls?
Ooooowaa Mother, should I build a wall?

Mother, should I run for President?
Mother, should I trust the government?
Mother, will they put me in the firing line?
Ooooowaa Is it just a waste of time?

Hush, my baby. Baby, don't you cry.
Momma's gonna make all of your nightmares come true.
Momma's gonna put all of her fears into you.
Momma's gonna keep you right here under her wing.
She won't let you fly, but she might let you sing.
Momma's gonna keep Baby cozy and warm.
Oooo Babe.
Oooo Babe.
Ooo Babe, of course Momma's gonna help build a wall.

Mother, do you think she's good enough,
For me?
Mother, do you think she's dangerous,
To me?
Mother will she tear your little boy apart?
Ooooowaa Mother, will she break my heart?

Hush, my baby. Baby, don't you cry.
Momma's gonna check out all your girlfriends for you.
Momma won't let anyone dirty get through.
Momma's gonna wait up until you get in.
Momma will always find out where you've been.
Momma's gonna keep Baby healthy and clean.
Oooo Babe.
Oooo Babe.
Ooo Babe, you'll always be Baby to me.

Mother, did it need to be so high?


One can safely replace "mother" by "maula" in the above song.... ;)

kalim
Posts: 107
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:01 am

Re: marriage

#30

Unread post by kalim » Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:48 am

Dear mature: You are absolutely right, it is claimed by some that the child of zinha will be an enemy of the dawaat. However, that was 14 centuries ago in a tribal culture in which establishing paternity was very important. If the need to establish paternity vanishes then there is no need for traditional marriages at all. In the 7th century being called a "bastard" may have been the worst insult, but not so in the 21st. There are plenty of single mothers who have raised successful families.

However, if you had read my post you would understand that I do not advocate libertinism at all. (I hope by "free-sex" you meant libertinism. If you meant the opposite of "paid-sex", I would certainly prefer the former). All I advocate is an acceptance of the fact the sex is natural and that by restricting it to after marriage we have made sex into a taboo subject, leading to intense guilt and uncounted neurosis. If we simply accept that sexual relations are natural and healthy we can move on to more important things in life. I feel that a person should not spend more than 1% of his time thinking about sex. However, due to the taboo nature of the subject men spend countless hours thinking about it. Remove the taboo and this obsession will vanish.

In my personal opinion strong family bonds are very important. A necessary part of this is sexual fidelity between partners. However, before marriage abstinence is not required. I also believe that both the mother and the father have very important roles to play in upbringing of children. Thus even in current times, single parenting is not alway a good idea, although it may not always be a bad idea either.

So please understand my stand before criticizing it, or bringing Maulana Ali into it. No one is trying to do any "adawaat" of anyone. You seem very arrogant to judge someone you have never met. Refrain from such behavior: the sayedna has warned his followers against such arrogance often in his waaz.

On a lighter note: your choice of alias and topic of post is most unfortunate. And if you really want to know what libertinism means please read a few of Marquis de Sade's books and plays.I most recommend the rather hilarious "Philosophy in the Bedroom" which was turned into a play in 2003 and shown around UK. It caused quite a furore, as one can imagine.