RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
S. Insaf
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RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#1

Unread post by S. Insaf » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:25 pm

Friends,
I am reproducing the first part of Justice C. S. Dharmadhikari's long article which he had written on our request for a Souvenir on the occasion of 10th World Conference:

RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS
By – Justice C. S. Dharmadhikari

I. What is religion is a mute question. The Supreme Court in S.P. Mittal etc V/s Union of India and others – a case relating to the Auro-ville Township in Pondicherry, came to the conclusion that, “the word ‘Religion’ has not been defined in the Constitution and indeed it is a term which is hardly susceptible to any rigid definition”.
Ultimately, Religion is a way of life. Therefore the organised religion is irreligious. When the religion is organised, it becomes a sect, which is water-tight and air-tight in nature.
What are the factors that are common to all religions? The first is faith in God, second is ethics or code of conduct and the third is our dealing with other men, animal and our attitude towards nature. These thing being common to all the religion, as in mathematics these common factors get cancelled and then what is left are mere Rituals which we call religion.
In our country in the name of religion we have traditionally insulted the man. Inspite of various religions and sects we have been more often slaves than free men.
We have so many religious preceptors with tremendous followings. Still this country has been a country of subject people for most of its history. It is because we have never cared for the dignity of man as a human being.
Our country is not a country of spirituality, but a country of religiosity. Religion is not only different from spirituality but very often it is anti-spirituality.
Religion is concerned not with life in this world, not with liberation of the soul but life after death. So religion is other worldliness.
In the name of religion we always lived not a life of duplicity but also a life of split personality. We have lived on two levels – one religious level and the other mundane (routine) level.
When you make your creed or community as the basis of your nationality you are communal. This is the nearest definition of communalism, denominationalism.
Spiritual values are quite different from religious values. It is not be forgotten that that there have been more wars, deaths and destructions in the name of religion and God, than in the name kingdoms and properties.
Therefore in my view the first principle of spirituality is reverence for all life, however low, however mean and that should be our watchword. Life is in relationship and there is no life in isolation. A man can not live alone. Life is relationship with our fellowmen, relationship with animals, relationship with vegetable kingdom and relationship with all the nature.
Culture is an art of living with others. Therefore the man is the measure of all things, and there is nothing higher than man.

accountability
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#2

Unread post by accountability » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:20 pm

How are you saifuddin bhai. Hope you are well. Now that you have a brand new heart, try to give it to someone. ;)

Human rights and religion cannot go together. they are opposite to each other. if you ask rights in religion, the whole fabric will tear apart. You will ask the right to question, you will ask the right to reply, you will ask "why". And there you are,you are an ethiest, an unbeliever, pagan or what not.

Some times ago, I said in the post, that religion can not stand the test of truth, anajmi was infuriated, called me all above. But he did not deny what I said.

Above Average Bohra
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#3

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:02 pm

I deny what you say. Everything you say can easily be falsified. Religion can stand the test of truth. That is the reason why you are liar and not religion. For eg. you claim that you pray namaaz, you claim that you fast in ramadan and then you say that religion cannot stand the test of truth. You are living a lie, if you pray and fast for the sake of religion.

You have the right ask questions in religion and the person replying, has the right to reply according to his own understanding and not the answers that you want him to give. You've asked questions to anajmi and you've received appropriate responses. You just do not have the capacity to handle the truth.

When you talk about religion, you are only talking about the kothar, which does not represent religion.

Above Average Bohra
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#4

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:05 pm

Religion is concerned not with life in this world, not with liberation of the soul but life after death. So religion is other worldliness.
Brother Insaf,

I am assuming you are knowledgeable about the quran. Do you sincerely believe that quran is not concerned with the life in this world?

accountability
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Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#5

Unread post by accountability » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:54 pm

well anajmi, you are a defender of religion, you could not stand the truth and changed your name.

Above Average Bohra
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#6

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:38 pm

accty,

You are smart, really smart!! I changed my name because I can't stand the truth. Wow!! The fact that everyone knows my new name and everyone knows my old name probably didn't register in your mind. Also that, what I said with my old name is exactly the same as what I am saying with my new name, (which is why most people figured out I was anajmi) also didn't register in your mind. You are smart, really smart!!

Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#7

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:40 pm

Besides, I had to change my name because I could no longer login with my old name and the admin never sent me a new password even after I requested for one.

Above Average Bohra
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#8

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:43 pm

Brother Insaf,

I would really like to know your opinion on whether you feel that the quran/Islam is not concerned with our earthly lives.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#9

Unread post by porus » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:32 am

Originally posted by Above Average Bohra:
Brother Insaf,

I would really like to know your opinion on whether you feel that the quran/Islam is not concerned with our earthly lives.
Insafbhai,

I hope you are recovering well from your recent surgery.

I hope that you would not fall for the bigot's trick to lure you into a dialog with him. He is itching to get into fight with you by asking a superfluous and nonsensical question whose answer is apparent to all.

Dharmadhikari article deals with the issue "organized religion" and makes respectable mention of core spirituality in all religions. Bigot's question is irrelevant to the article you posted.

This 'above average bigot' fancies himself as a world's expert on Quran and will eventually insult you. I am sure you have seen this behavior of his with almost all other participants who engage with him.

Admin
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#10

Unread post by Admin » Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:11 pm

Originally posted by Above Average Bohra:
Besides, I had to change my name because I could no longer login with my old name and the admin never sent me a new password even after I requested for one.
AAB, your "anajmi" username and password seem to work fine. Please try again. If it doesn't work let us know.

Above Average Bohra
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#11

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:45 pm

Brother Insaf,

I promise you that I will not respond to your post, whatever your answer, or try to get into a debate with you. I do not insult good people.

Admin,

I can't login.

Admin
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Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2000 5:01 am

Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#12

Unread post by Admin » Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:18 pm

AAB, Pls try now. We changed your password and we are able to login with it.

Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#13

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:23 pm

Dharmadhikari is simply hiding behind the concept of "Organized Religion" in order to attack religion. Otherwise the headline of his article would've been - Organized Religion and Human Rights. Just like Tai Tripplehorn.

Organized Religion is simply a concept created by Religion Haters. There is nothing wrong in being organized. You teach your children to be organized from the time they are very small. But when it comes to religion these haters want it to be free for all, as you like it!!

Above Average Bohra
Posts: 362
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#14

Unread post by Above Average Bohra » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:08 pm

Admin,

I still can't login. It tells me that the password I used is incorrect. If you changed the password, can you email the new password to me? I am not sure what email id I used for the anajmi account but if you believe that anajmi and Above Average Bohra are the same, can you send the password for the anajmi account to the email id associated with the AAB account?

JC
Posts: 1624
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#15

Unread post by JC » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:14 pm

We are talking of Religion and Human Rights - now when we say 'religion' are we talking about Islam or all religions .......

One human rights question which involves Islam -

What if a born Muslim wants to convert to any other religion in any Muslim country say Iran or Saudi Arabia?? AND actually does convert!

How would 'Islam' rule on that?

Admin
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#16

Unread post by Admin » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:28 pm

AAB, check your private messages.

S. Insaf
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#17

Unread post by S. Insaf » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:42 pm

Friends,
There is a Review Petition pending in the Supreme Court of India since last 21 years to review it decision given in 1962 and allowing Bohra high priest to excommunicate on religious ground – only on religious ground remember. But the Bohra high priest is grossly misusing the exemption given to him. This has been clearly established by two inquiry commissions headed by legal luminaries.
I am reproducing this article by Justice C. S. Dharmadhikari so that our readers know the mind of today’s progressive judges in the Supreme Court and why Sayedna’s administration is using its might to delay the procedure. They know that their defeat in this case is a foregone conclusion.

Second Part of Justice C. S. Dharmadhikari’s article:-
If we study various parts of our Constitution, we find that chapter dealing with the Fundamental Rights, Fundamental Duties and Directive Principles are nothing but adaptation of Universal Human Rights.
It is no doubt that we have recognised the fundamental right to religion, but it does not intend the State to play a role of passive spectator, but it lays down that State should be active wherever there is denial of social and economic justice. By limiting the freedom of religion within the spiritual bounds and separating it from the secular matters the Constitution makers sought to resolve this dilemma , that blind adherence to ritualism might lead – to narrow bigotry eroding the structure of society based on equality, justice and human rights.
When there is a conflict between the Human Rights and so called Religious Rights, obviously the Human Rights must prevail.
Otherwise the religion and spirituality will become inhuman.
To say the least that will be negation of the spirituality itself and will result in religious terrorism.
This is what has been precisely laid down in the well-known case, “Sardar Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb V/s State of Bombay”. It is related to excommunication of a person on religious ground. In my view such act of excommunication is derogatory, as well contrary to well accepted human rights.
Much water has been flown after the said case was decided by the Supreme Court. Now the Chapter dealing with the fundamental duties is incorporated in the Constitution by 42nd Amendment Act, 1976. By the said chapter it is laid down that it shall be the duty of every citizen of India “to promote harmony and the spirit of common brotherhood amongst all the people of India transcending religious, linguistic and regional or sectional diversities; to renounce practices derogatory to the dignity of the women”. “To value and preserve the rich heritage of our composite culture and to develop scientific temper, humanism and spirit of inquiry and social reform”.
These Fundamental Duties will have to be read in the chapter dealing with the Fundamental Rights and particularly the right of freedom of religion. These two will have to be read together and harmoniously.
Even prior to the insertion of this Chapter in the Constitution in the case of Rev. Stainislaus V/s State of Madhya Pradesh and others, the Supreme Court had held that right to propagate one’s religion will not include in its import right to covert any person to one’s own religion. The Supreme Court has observed “what Article 25(1) grants is not right to convert other person to one’s own religion by an exposition of its tenets. (In case of Dawoodi Bohras the present tenets are not of Bohra faith but these tenets are brain child of a dominant person who is trying to compel every Bohra to accept them. Which literary, means converting persons of one faith to one’s own faith and that to on threat of excommunication. It is an impingement on the Freedom of Conscience guaranteed to all the Citizens of this country alike.”) In my view right to excommunication runs counter to this principle.
There should be democracy within religion. You can not expect ONE HEAD on all the shoulders.

anajmi
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#18

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:05 pm

Admin,

Thank you for resetting my password.

accty,

Now that I have my old name back, will you agree that I can stand up to the "truth"??

Brother Insaf,

I agree with the assessment of Justice Dharmadhikari in everything he says. I hope the Syedna suffers a humiliating defeat and is forced into stopping the practice of excommunication or using its threat for the subjugation of ordinary bohras.

Humsafar
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#19

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:51 pm

Culture is an art of living with others. Therefore the man is the measure of all things, and there is nothing higher than man.
I beg to disagree with the learned judge on this. To say that man is a measure of all things is a human-centric view. Humans enjoy no special entitlement or status in the greater scheme of things. Thanks to the strange workings of evolution and our extraordinary luck we are here today, alive and kicking, and making sure that we destroy everything we lay our hands on. And we are supposed to be the special creation of God. Now how ironic is that!

anajmi
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#20

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:08 pm

As per one of the prophet's hadiths, most humans will be in hell. Go figure.

Humsafar
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#21

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:23 pm

Yes most, except for the true mumineens :) .

porus
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#22

Unread post by porus » Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:34 pm

If true, this is against God's intention, for He intends for man to follow His message. He must then be considered an abject failure. ;)

anajmi
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#23

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:18 pm

for He intends for man to follow His message.
Yes he does, but try not to blame God for your own shortcomings. If I were in your place. I would be less worried about God being an abject failure and more worried about how his failure is going to fry my butt. ;)

Hussain_KSA
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#24

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:40 am

Islam is the only religion where you can talk about human rights. Organized religion, cults and about all other sect are creation of mullas and maulvis who are bent upon giving a wrong picture of Islam. I remember my teacher late Raja Gazanfar ali who used to teach us English as second language but was good Urdu humorous poet. He has written a rubaee for these kind of mullah.

ايک ملا غور و فكر و إجتهاد
دو ملا فقط بغض و عنــــــاد
تين ملا زنده آباد و مرده آباد
ڇار ملا في سبيل الله فســــاد

I will write this in Roman script as I am not good enough to translate this in English language.

Ek Mulla Ghour o Fikr o Ijtehaad
Do Mullah fakhat Bugz o Inad
Teen Mullah Zindabad o Murdabad
Chaar Mullah Fi Sabeelillah Fasad.

Brother Porus : Request for English Translation.

Brother Al Zulfikhar : Request for Lisaane Dawat Translation :)

S. Insaf
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#25

Unread post by S. Insaf » Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:43 am

In the Second part Justice C. S. Dharmadhikari’s article the learned judge considers even forceful acceptance of all innovations introduced by 51st Dai and 52nd Dai as forceful conversion, which is against the Constitution. This is the line of thinking of present day judges of the Supreme Court. He has most empathetically said that, “There should be democracy within religion. You can not expect ONE HEAD on all the shoulders”. Sayedna Saheb’s present establishment out rightly rejects this policy and wants to have an authoritarian rule over the community.
Islam was not a religion like other religions in its early stages. It was a Revolution. The Prophet Hazrat Mohammad (pbuh) was a man of modest means but extraordinary qualities of heart and mind. When he was born Mecca was developing as an important trading centre and a complex financial centre of great international importance. The social dynamics of Meccan society was driving it in a direction which could not be in harmonious conjunction with a society based on tribal norms. In a tribal society, the needs were extremely primitive and it was characterised by the absence of cash economy. The question of hoarding and concentration of wealth therefore did not arise. The mercantile society on the other hand, depends on expansion of cash economy, developing and preserving institution of private property, maximising of profit thus increasing economic disparity. There was a dark side to the prosperity of Mecca. It displayed evils of a wealthy commercial society. Extremes wealth and acute poverty and class-barriers. Thus the Prophet (pbuh) and Qura’n most fervently denounced the social injustice.
Quran says, “And We sent unto any township a warner, but its rich and affluent ones declared: Lo! We are disbelievers in that which you bring to us.” But Quran warns these wealthy ones, “It is not your wealth nor your children that will bring you near Us, but he who believes and does good (he draws near Us).” Thus it is very clearly indicated in Quran that the real Kafirs (unbelievers) are those who accumulate wealth and perpetuate injustice in the society. Thus Islam emerged as a revolutionary religious movement with deep socio-economic implications. Namaz was to break the social barriers, Roza and Zakat were to realise the hunger of poor and help them monetarily. Hajj in Prophet’s time was for harmony of believers and Jihad was to fight against injustices in the society.
But when Islam turned into an organised establishment and monarchy it lost its revolutionary zeal and all sorts of corruptions creped in.
Professor Mrs. Alu Dastoor who was the member of the “Justice Nathwani Commission of Inquiry once told in her speech “How being a very insignificant in numbers (total world-wide population around 80,000) the Parsee community could do unparallel philanthropic, charitable and social welfare work? She said “because our religion is disorganised but our community as whole is organised. I have worked with a Parsee firm known as ‘Godrej & Boyce Pvt. Ltd.’ for more than 30 years. Their dastoors (priests) were ordinary workers, professional, managers etc. Whenever called they used to perform the religious rites of their community after office hours. Some Parsees were devotees of Sai Baba, some of Muslim saints. In Udaipur the reformists, on the similar line, have trained their Mullas without creating a separate class of Mullas.
Coming up next is the Third Part of Justice C. S. Dharmadhikari’s article.

Aftab
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#26

Unread post by Aftab » Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:22 am

Humsafar,
I am of the school that the Quran is the book for all times and for all people. Humans are alleviated to a higher rank than angels just for the gift by Subhanallah to make their own choice. No accident. The choice can be that of America to spend $3T or $5B/week for war or use it to irradiate child poverty, homelessness or aids. According to UN, the cost of a 15 year plan for the next 5 years would be just $2B/year for each of the items mentioned. On the other hand we have Gandhi, Mother Teresa, Mandela, Martin Luther King Jr. (please note the omission of a single Muslim) or moulana in the list, as he is above all by his virtue to go to jannah straight.
Thus this ability to decide your fate is a double edged sword and do not blame Allah for humans inadequacy.

S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#27

Unread post by S. Insaf » Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:02 am

Justice C. S. Dharmadhikari says: “The man is the measure of all things, and there is nothing higher than man.”
As per my understanding:-
Rights and duties of an individual arise from the fact that we live together in societies. Cooperative social living is essential for human existence. The well-being and development of individual would be impossible in the absence of social living.
Society is not biological and so it is not capable by itself of experiencing pleasure or pain, progress or regress. Conscious individuals alone are capable of such experience. Conscience is the basis of moral values which are essential for cooperative living. Whether it is religion, faith, ideology, philosophy or science, the betterment and development of man is the sole measure of social and spiritual progress. Therefore the man is the measure of all things.
Society is for all its members and not for few selected individuals. Equal recognition of the dignity of every members of the society is the basis of the rights and the duties of individuals.
Man does not live by bread alone. He strives not only for physical necessities, but for intellectual, ethical and aesthetic development. Therefore, it is in that sense that there is nothing higher than man.

S. Insaf
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Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#28

Unread post by S. Insaf » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:46 pm

Third and concluding Part of Justice C. S. Dharmadhikari’s article:-

Freedom of expression is a part and parcel of human rights, which means right to differ and, therefore, this human right must prevail, over and above the so called religious right or freedom. Freedom of conscience, means, there should be an absolute right to express religious as well as non-religious views, without fear. Fundamentalism in any religion violates this freedom. Religion may have some positive features, but ignoring them, fundamentalists are imposing negative consequences because of their intolerance, obsessions and opposition to progress.

Under our constitution, power to make laws vests in the parliament and the legislature. This takes in its import power to legislate, even in the matters relating to the personal laws or so called religious rights. To say that the parliament has no right to regulate or legislate in the field of religion will practically amount to negation of Parliamentary Sovereignty. It will mean that in the religious field Mullas and Dharmadhikari, are supreme and not parliament or judiciary. This will not only run counter to the various directive principles incorporated in our Constitution but will amount to negation of basic human rights.

The Universal Declaration of human rights is binding upon India, since it is a signatory to the said declaration. Very basis of this declaration is that the interest of the one part of the world is bound up with the interests of human beings as a whole in very other part of the World.

As Dr. Martin Luther King says, injustice anywhere is bound to lead injustice everywhere. Pains and troubles of one part of the human family, may be religious or otherwise, cause the pain and trouble to the rest of the human family. This is the fundamental concept underlying making of binding declarations and conventions in which the nations of the world have joined.

Therefore, it is quite obvious that whenever there is a conflict between the human right and the religious right, human right must prevail. Any Law, which is violative of the basic human rights, can safely be termed as inhuman.

Irony is that in this country we have always insulted a human being, in the name of religion. Therefore, any step or precept, which results in denying basic human rights, must be termed as irreligious. Our religions inculcate the fear of Guru or head priest but we have to go beyond this, we have to place human rights above everything else. This can be termed as true humanism. Therefore, ultimately is appears that the religions in plurality will have to go or disappear giving place to one and only religion, which recognises human rights and universal Brotherhood as the basis of its governance and this is our goal, which we ultimately want to achieve. There is enough provision of dignity of man (including women)in Islam which must be brought in practice.

porus
Posts: 3594
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Re: RELIGION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

#29

Unread post by porus » Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:46 pm

Originally posted by S. Insaf:
Thus it is very clearly indicated in Quran that the real Kafirs (unbelievers) are those who accumulate wealth and perpetuate injustice in the society.
<p class="MsoNormal" dir="RTL" style="text-align:right;direction:rtl;unicode-bidi:
embed">
<span lang="AR-SA" style="font-size: 24.0pt; font-family: Traditional Arabic; color: black">
وَلاَ تَأْكُلُواْ أَمْوَالَكُم بَيْنَكُم بِالْبَاطِلِ وَتُدْلُواْ بِهَا إِلَى
الْحُكَّامِ لِتَأْكُلُواْ فَرِيقًا مِّنْ أَمْوَالِ النَّاسِ بِالإِثْمِ وَأَنتُمْ
تَعْلَمُونَ</span><span lang="AR-SA" dir="LTR" style="font-size: 24.0pt; font-family: Verdana; color: black">
</span>
<span lang="AR-SA" style="font-size: 24.0pt; font-family: Traditional Arabic; color: black">
 (البقرة </span><span dir="LTR" style="font-size:24.0pt;font-family:Karbala">188</span><span lang="AR-SA" style="font-size: 24.0pt">)</span></p>

Do not consume your property wrongfully, nor use it to bribe judges, intending sinfully and knowingly to consume parts of other people’s property (al-Baqarah 188)