I’ve been wondering for the past two or three years.. where are the progressives within the Muslim youth? I’m still a college student so I still have a chance to see Muslim youth from all around the world and from every different sect. And for the most part, they are as “fundamentalist”, nay .. rather close-minded as the Mullas in Talibanized Afghanistan. I remember, even three years back, I would hear from Muslim peers of mine that I “shouldn’t be calling myself a Muslim” or that “don’t you know that you’re going to burn in hell fire for your beliefs” .. And what were my beliefs? Well, I’ve always thought that everyone has a right to their religion and that if someone doesn’t want to “believe”, it doesn’t make them a “bad or evil” person. I thought that relying on the Mulla’s and their interpretation of some thousand year old “here-says” (Specifically hadith) telling you how to take a dump was outlandish for people living in a secular world who were at the same time driving around in BMW’s and Lexus’ while people back home in their own countries were starving….
After 9/11 . . .
Nothing has really changed…. The Muslim youth is as imperceptive as it ever was.. but now it seems that it’s a lot less aggressive and a lot more defensive. The fashion now is to thwart criticism not by attacking but rather by saying “Man! We have to stick together.. don’t you know they are out to get us?” or if you make a comment on how poor the state of human-rights are in the “Muslim” countries around the world.. The only response you get is “Can’t you see, the media is totally biased against us?” Fine, I agree – the media is biased, but that does not negate the fact that so many of our Muslim countries have horribly misogynistic laws and that we enjoy so many more rights to practice our religion in the United States, England another secular nations than we do in Muslim countries. And on top of this, they attend these large Islamic conferences just to “hook up” (not to say that there is anything wrong with it) but, in the same breath .. they are able to condemn others to “hell fire” for criticizing the “Islamic corporation” and its utterly repulsive human-rights abuses.
Why is it that a progressive young “Muslim” (if I may call myself that) has more in common with 50 year olds than with people his own age? Why has the Muslim youth become so dogmatic and at the same time so hypocritical? Has it always been this way?
It might just be me, but in the last few years I have not met more than two people my age who call himself/herself a Muslim and has any progressive thoughts on the state of Islam.
sh
Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
I am in the US and my experiences have been more mixed than yours, though I'll admit I don't hang a lot around places like the Muslim Students Association. There were people I met there who actually believed there is no difference between a whore and a woman who does not wear the hijab.
This attitude among muslim students (especially from the middle east(not to say that it is non-existent among Indians or Pakistanis)) has a lot to do with the extremely low status that people from muslim countries have in the US or other western countries. To counter this they develop a sort of defensive morality around everything that prevents them from seeing things as they are. It also conveniently puts the blame for everything on the other side. They develop a thinking whereby everything bad is due to machinations of Israel or US and the muslim people are totally blameless for their plight. Neitzsche described this kind of thinking very well calling it "ressentiment", and it is very commonly found among powerless people.
This has the payoff of providing them with a moral high. I see this high every time they blame the US for all the ills in the muslim world. This does seem to be more of a characteristic of Muslims than other people.
The second half of the 20th century was literally handed on a silver platter to the middle east countries after the discovery of the oil. Instead of modernizing their education system and laying the foundation of a next generation industrial society, what do they do? They finance madrasas teaching that learning Quran by rote will teach you everything. Instead of modernising their military so that other countries would take them more seriously they build massive palaces and royal families with hundreds of princes draining all that wealth into the toilet. And, of course, they seem to have a total anathema towards science and reasoning lest the shaky foundations of Quran suffer any jolts. And then they realise that the world treats them like a bunch of banana republics and go bwahaha, everyone is against us.
At this point, I am not even sure if the muslim world (middle east primarily) wants to do anything to improve its position. They seem to be really happy in the knowledge that they are all going to heaven with 70 virgins and the rest of the world is destined for hell. It is almost heretical to suggest that the muslim world might need to change a bit before the rest of the world gives it a serious thought. For most of the world the Islamic culture seems to be stuck somewhere between the 15th and 18th centuries and doesn't seem to be in any hurry to get out.
-N
This attitude among muslim students (especially from the middle east(not to say that it is non-existent among Indians or Pakistanis)) has a lot to do with the extremely low status that people from muslim countries have in the US or other western countries. To counter this they develop a sort of defensive morality around everything that prevents them from seeing things as they are. It also conveniently puts the blame for everything on the other side. They develop a thinking whereby everything bad is due to machinations of Israel or US and the muslim people are totally blameless for their plight. Neitzsche described this kind of thinking very well calling it "ressentiment", and it is very commonly found among powerless people.
This has the payoff of providing them with a moral high. I see this high every time they blame the US for all the ills in the muslim world. This does seem to be more of a characteristic of Muslims than other people.
The second half of the 20th century was literally handed on a silver platter to the middle east countries after the discovery of the oil. Instead of modernizing their education system and laying the foundation of a next generation industrial society, what do they do? They finance madrasas teaching that learning Quran by rote will teach you everything. Instead of modernising their military so that other countries would take them more seriously they build massive palaces and royal families with hundreds of princes draining all that wealth into the toilet. And, of course, they seem to have a total anathema towards science and reasoning lest the shaky foundations of Quran suffer any jolts. And then they realise that the world treats them like a bunch of banana republics and go bwahaha, everyone is against us.
At this point, I am not even sure if the muslim world (middle east primarily) wants to do anything to improve its position. They seem to be really happy in the knowledge that they are all going to heaven with 70 virgins and the rest of the world is destined for hell. It is almost heretical to suggest that the muslim world might need to change a bit before the rest of the world gives it a serious thought. For most of the world the Islamic culture seems to be stuck somewhere between the 15th and 18th centuries and doesn't seem to be in any hurry to get out.
-N
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
I have had several discussions on this board regarding this topic. The various sides come together in playing victims of the west with complete lack of accountabilty for themselves. No Islamic country has a democracy, and the wealth is concentrated within the ruler's family. These so-called rulers have no interest in educating the masses or investing in arts and sciences as this will bring down their kingdoms. In fact, the madrasas are designed to prevent knowledge of democracy and free market from being on their respective national agenda. Instead, they are taught to hate the west and blame the west for their plight, while these same rulers depend on, and sell out, to the west
Keeps the masses busy ....and ignorant.
Keeps the masses busy ....and ignorant.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
The masses are not totally innocent either. They do not seem to have sort of liking for democracy and I am quite sure if democracy were to suddenly come to Middle East it would not last long. Democracy doesn't just mean holding elections every few years, it also means an independent judiciary, an independent executive, an independent legislature and a free press. No muslim country, barring Iran partially, fulfils even a shadow of these requirements. Even Muslims from these countries who come to the West seem to remain completely oblivious of the benefits that freedom brings.
<RANT MODE ON>
Looking at Islamic countries it would seem that Islam almost treats muslims like mental defectives. That if a man got a glimpse of a woman's neck he would lose all control and jump on her. That if there is a strip bar somewhere all society would immediately hit the self-destruct button. That if the kids see a movie with a romantic theme they would immediately go to the neighbours and start fucking like rabbits. They seem to believe they are oh so good and moral when in fact they have never had the opportunity to test themselves.
<RANT MODE OFF>
-N
<RANT MODE ON>
Looking at Islamic countries it would seem that Islam almost treats muslims like mental defectives. That if a man got a glimpse of a woman's neck he would lose all control and jump on her. That if there is a strip bar somewhere all society would immediately hit the self-destruct button. That if the kids see a movie with a romantic theme they would immediately go to the neighbours and start fucking like rabbits. They seem to believe they are oh so good and moral when in fact they have never had the opportunity to test themselves.
<RANT MODE OFF>
-N
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
You tell 'em - sister!
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
I totally agree with what you said about how the Muslims seem to be totally content with “the knowledge that they are all going to heaven with 70 virgins and the rest of the world is destined for hell.” Take for example, Muslims criticizing other Muslims about dietary habits, alcohol, etc… I remember, when I was eating at McDonalds one time, one of the Muslim kids with us said that I shouldn’t be eating the hamburger.. because it was Haraam. And this was right in front of all the other people in the group. I was awe struck at the audacity of this person to try to make me feel that I was not a good Muslim because I was eating a hamburger. But the thing that struck me even more was that Hindu’s don’t tell other Hindu’s that they are going to be reincarnated as a dog if they eat meat. Why is it that the Muslims of the world have become such a self-righteous community?
And, the only issue that Muslim kids want to get involved in is the Israel-Palestine conflict (of which they know very little about, except the superficial “facts”) – why isn’t anything else worth fighting for? Why can’t Muslim youth hold debates about women’s rights abuses in Saudi Arabia and Iran? Or freedom of religion abuses in Saudi Arabia ..
I honestly think that the biggest problem in the Islamic world right now is Saudi Arabia and its influence on both sides of the “cultural conflict”. On one hand the Saudi’s are buddy-buddy with the US and England because they buy the oil which makes them rich. And on the other hand they are pumping money into the madrasa’s in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and even India, telling little children that the west is their enemy and that the only path to salvation is the Saudi’s perverted view of Islam. On top of this there is an even bigger problem, the Saudi’s are funding Islamic Studies departments all across the United States that are publishing the most fundamentalist and obtuse literature (if I may call it that). The Saudi’s fund the largest and most “prestigious” departments in America.. Berkeley, Harvard, Chicago, and even the likes of Oxford in the UK. How can we expect to hear any real debate and scholarship on Islam when so many of these departments have been bought by the Saudis? Just thinking about the mess they’ve put Islam into boggles the mind. They’ve covered all bases to further material interests, and the people that are losing out are millions of Muslims around the world who don’t have competent scholars to make their religion as dynamic as it should be.
…
I went to the ISNA conference this summer in Washington, DC… and I was surprised to find there this same avoidance of the CORE issues that are effecting Islam today. The only thing that these people could talk about was their IMAGE as portrayed to the western world. And how Islam was a religion of peace… BLAH! How disgraceful.. I could have heard a better deliberation and seen more progress in a debate between Donahue and Bill O’Reilly.
So what is there to do? How is this all going to change? Should we just let time work things out?
One thing is for sure… Islam would have died right there in that desert if Muhammad was as stupid and as short-sighted as the Muslims today are.
sh
And, the only issue that Muslim kids want to get involved in is the Israel-Palestine conflict (of which they know very little about, except the superficial “facts”) – why isn’t anything else worth fighting for? Why can’t Muslim youth hold debates about women’s rights abuses in Saudi Arabia and Iran? Or freedom of religion abuses in Saudi Arabia ..
I honestly think that the biggest problem in the Islamic world right now is Saudi Arabia and its influence on both sides of the “cultural conflict”. On one hand the Saudi’s are buddy-buddy with the US and England because they buy the oil which makes them rich. And on the other hand they are pumping money into the madrasa’s in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and even India, telling little children that the west is their enemy and that the only path to salvation is the Saudi’s perverted view of Islam. On top of this there is an even bigger problem, the Saudi’s are funding Islamic Studies departments all across the United States that are publishing the most fundamentalist and obtuse literature (if I may call it that). The Saudi’s fund the largest and most “prestigious” departments in America.. Berkeley, Harvard, Chicago, and even the likes of Oxford in the UK. How can we expect to hear any real debate and scholarship on Islam when so many of these departments have been bought by the Saudis? Just thinking about the mess they’ve put Islam into boggles the mind. They’ve covered all bases to further material interests, and the people that are losing out are millions of Muslims around the world who don’t have competent scholars to make their religion as dynamic as it should be.
…
I went to the ISNA conference this summer in Washington, DC… and I was surprised to find there this same avoidance of the CORE issues that are effecting Islam today. The only thing that these people could talk about was their IMAGE as portrayed to the western world. And how Islam was a religion of peace… BLAH! How disgraceful.. I could have heard a better deliberation and seen more progress in a debate between Donahue and Bill O’Reilly.
So what is there to do? How is this all going to change? Should we just let time work things out?
One thing is for sure… Islam would have died right there in that desert if Muhammad was as stupid and as short-sighted as the Muslims today are.
sh
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Why is it that the Muslims of the world have become such a self-righteous community?
That's easy to answer. The muslims of this world have done pretty much nothing in the past few centuries. The world took a giant leap forward with the industrial and information revolutions and the muslim countries were left behind in the dust. Now, they desperately need something to make themselves feel superior. Trying to portray themselves as morally superior by being self-righteous is a pretty obvious and lowly tactic.
So what is there to do? How is this all going to change? Should we just let time work things out?
This is not so easy to answer but I'll take a stab at it. What you can try to do is wean some people of this drug of self righteousness. Muslim communities tend to suppress dissent far more openly than others so it may not be so easy. Try to see if you can have a debate where you can play the devil's advocate. You may find there are other muslims like yourself but who may be afraid to come out openly. I don't think time will work this out in the favor of muslims. In fact, I am personally inclined to think the golden period of Islam is over and is never going to return. Muslims seem to be too far gone into ressentiment mode of thinking to improve. It will take at least a generation to get a new sort of thinking going and I don't have much hope from the current teenage generation.
-N
That's easy to answer. The muslims of this world have done pretty much nothing in the past few centuries. The world took a giant leap forward with the industrial and information revolutions and the muslim countries were left behind in the dust. Now, they desperately need something to make themselves feel superior. Trying to portray themselves as morally superior by being self-righteous is a pretty obvious and lowly tactic.
So what is there to do? How is this all going to change? Should we just let time work things out?
This is not so easy to answer but I'll take a stab at it. What you can try to do is wean some people of this drug of self righteousness. Muslim communities tend to suppress dissent far more openly than others so it may not be so easy. Try to see if you can have a debate where you can play the devil's advocate. You may find there are other muslims like yourself but who may be afraid to come out openly. I don't think time will work this out in the favor of muslims. In fact, I am personally inclined to think the golden period of Islam is over and is never going to return. Muslims seem to be too far gone into ressentiment mode of thinking to improve. It will take at least a generation to get a new sort of thinking going and I don't have much hope from the current teenage generation.
-N
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Okay some points I've missed in the earlier post.
I could have heard a better deliberation and seen more progress in a debate between Donahue and Bill O’Reilly.
That's true. I've rarely seen more vapid debates than those that happen among muslims. All they try to do is pat each other on the back, reinforce their thought patterns, and then go eat a halal pizza. The very thought of independent thought is so dangerous that when someone comes out with something new they all look towards each other to see how they should respond, and almost always respond by crushing it.
One thing is for sure… Islam would have died right there in that desert if Muhammad was as stupid and as short-sighted as the Muslims today are.
If he could have seen what muslims would be doing in his name 14 centuries later he might just have slit his own throat and be done with it.
-N
I could have heard a better deliberation and seen more progress in a debate between Donahue and Bill O’Reilly.
That's true. I've rarely seen more vapid debates than those that happen among muslims. All they try to do is pat each other on the back, reinforce their thought patterns, and then go eat a halal pizza. The very thought of independent thought is so dangerous that when someone comes out with something new they all look towards each other to see how they should respond, and almost always respond by crushing it.
One thing is for sure… Islam would have died right there in that desert if Muhammad was as stupid and as short-sighted as the Muslims today are.
If he could have seen what muslims would be doing in his name 14 centuries later he might just have slit his own throat and be done with it.
-N
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
nausicaa,
""They seem to believe they are oh so good and moral when in fact they have never had the opportunity to test themselves.""
Look at what happened to you when you got the opportunity to test yourself. no fasting, no prayers, sex before marriage, drinking does not harm society, and god does not exist.
Millions of Muslims live in the US and test themselves daily with the likes of you.
""They seem to believe they are oh so good and moral when in fact they have never had the opportunity to test themselves.""
Look at what happened to you when you got the opportunity to test yourself. no fasting, no prayers, sex before marriage, drinking does not harm society, and god does not exist.
Millions of Muslims live in the US and test themselves daily with the likes of you.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Islam asks you to believe in one God and that Mohammed (saw) was his last messenger. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam asks you to pray 5 times a day. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam asks you to fast one month in a year. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam asks you to give charity. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam asks you to fight the oppressors. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam says no sex before marriage. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam says no drinking. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam says no gambling. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam says eat halal food. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam says women should cover themselves from head to toe. Does that affect growth of Muslim (or any) countries? No. The growth of the western countries was not because of their women.
Islam says no strip bars. Does that affect growth of Muslim (or any) countries? No. If neither of them cause any harm, which is better, having a strip bar or not having one?
Islam says fight for what belongs to you. Does that affect growth of Muslim (or any) countries? No
So what is affecting the growth of these Muslim countries? Maybe it is not islam.
The people who killed 3000 innocents in the world trade center didn't do it because they were muslims. Islam was a source of their strength (right or wrong) not the cause of their action.
Who does the land that the Palestinians are fighting for belong to? It belongs to the Palestinians, but they are the villains according to the western media.
The number of palestinians that have been killed is 4 times the number of israelis that have been killed in the last 2 years, and this is no secret, but guess what happens when an israeli dies as against what happens when a palestinian dies??
And then ofcourse we have muslims (ex) who want strip bars and sex before marriage and say that this is what is going to be responsible for the growth of Muslim countries.
I hope a time comes when all Muslims have to worry about is whether to have a strip bar or not and whether to have sex before marriage or not.
Islam asks you to pray 5 times a day. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam asks you to fast one month in a year. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam asks you to give charity. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam asks you to fight the oppressors. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam says no sex before marriage. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam says no drinking. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam says no gambling. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam says eat halal food. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam says women should cover themselves from head to toe. Does that affect growth of Muslim (or any) countries? No. The growth of the western countries was not because of their women.
Islam says no strip bars. Does that affect growth of Muslim (or any) countries? No. If neither of them cause any harm, which is better, having a strip bar or not having one?
Islam says fight for what belongs to you. Does that affect growth of Muslim (or any) countries? No
So what is affecting the growth of these Muslim countries? Maybe it is not islam.
The people who killed 3000 innocents in the world trade center didn't do it because they were muslims. Islam was a source of their strength (right or wrong) not the cause of their action.
Who does the land that the Palestinians are fighting for belong to? It belongs to the Palestinians, but they are the villains according to the western media.
The number of palestinians that have been killed is 4 times the number of israelis that have been killed in the last 2 years, and this is no secret, but guess what happens when an israeli dies as against what happens when a palestinian dies??
And then ofcourse we have muslims (ex) who want strip bars and sex before marriage and say that this is what is going to be responsible for the growth of Muslim countries.
I hope a time comes when all Muslims have to worry about is whether to have a strip bar or not and whether to have sex before marriage or not.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Anajmi,
Do you ever wonder why societies which are not too hung up about all of what you said are doing so much better than ones which are?
-N
Do you ever wonder why societies which are not too hung up about all of what you said are doing so much better than ones which are?
-N
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Anajmi,
I’m not asking this to make fun of you or anything... it’s just question.
Would you go live in Saudi Arabia or Iran as a citizen of those respective countries?
Think about it for a little while, maybe do some research on it. If you do live there...how do you like it?
sh
I’m not asking this to make fun of you or anything... it’s just question.
Would you go live in Saudi Arabia or Iran as a citizen of those respective countries?
Think about it for a little while, maybe do some research on it. If you do live there...how do you like it?
sh
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
One more thing.
How do you think the people in Afghanistan like it?
sh
How do you think the people in Afghanistan like it?
sh
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
barwani,
<I>Would you go live in Saudi Arabia or Iran as a citizen of those respective countries?[/i]
Don't underestimate the number of people, including women, who think Saudi Arabia is a pretty ideal society. I've met Pakistanis who thought Taliban was a good model of governance and with minor tweaking could be applied to Pakistan. It almost made me want to puke.
-N
<I>Would you go live in Saudi Arabia or Iran as a citizen of those respective countries?[/i]
Don't underestimate the number of people, including women, who think Saudi Arabia is a pretty ideal society. I've met Pakistanis who thought Taliban was a good model of governance and with minor tweaking could be applied to Pakistan. It almost made me want to puke.
-N
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Islam asks you to believe in one God and that Mohammed (saw) was his last messenger. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Obviously it does, how many Muslim authors, artists, and clerics who did not agree with the government’s version of Islam have been executed or made to disappear?
Just recently … because of the mounting pressure of students, a death sentence was lifted off of a professor of history who was accused of blasphemy in Iran.
“Hashemi Aghajari, a professor of history, was accused of blasphemy by a provincial court in the city of Hamadan and condemned to death. Aghari’s offence was to make the remark that Moslems are not “apes” and as a result are not obliged to “blindly” follow their religious leaders. Following the sentence, students demonstrated and boycotted classes at a number of universities last week. Thousands of university students joined the protests in Hamadan itself and in other cities—including Täbriz, Isfahan, and above all in Teheran.”
THANK GOD for these “Godless” students who saved this poor guy’s life.
Islam asks you to pray 5 times a day. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam asks you to fast one month in a year. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam asks you to give charity. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
For the last three .. I don’t think anything is wrong with these things. But why should the government or anyone else force any of these things upon you? That’s compulsion in religion, and it’s totally against what the Quran says. .. Don’t you believe in the Quran?
Islam asks you to fight the oppressors. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Who are the oppressors? You mean you want the Muslim people to overthrow their own "muslim" governments in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, Yemen… huh??
Islam says no sex before marriage. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Obviously it does, it violates human rights. Because their stupid sharia law tells them to stone people to death if they are “accused” of having sex outside marrage! If that doesn’t seem oppressive and reprehensible, I really don’t know what else to say to you?
Islam says no drinking. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam says no gambling. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
These last two questions I don’t even feel like answering. If you consider yourself a Muslim, then don’t drink.. but why the heck does the less than perfect government of rich old Arab bigots have to butt into your private lives? (I think putting limits on drinking and gambling is a good Idea, just like we have in the good ‘ole USA and Canada and most non-Muslim countries)
Islam says eat halal food. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Halal food is probably the MOST misunderstood concept in Islam. What is halal food? Well.. lets see what our good friend the Quran says:
Sura II-173
He hath ONLY forbidden you
Dead meat, and blood,
And the flesh of Swine,
And that on which
ANY OTHER NAME HATH BEEN INVOKED
*BESIDES* THAT OF GOD!
But if one is forced by necessity,
Without willful disobedience,
Nor transgressing due limits,
Then is he guiltless,
For God is Oft-forgiving
Most Merciful.
So my brothers and sisters, you can eat all the McDonalds and Purdue chicken you want!
Because, the people who carve those things up aren’t saying Marylin Manson’s name or any other name at all.. so by-gollie according to what the Quran says.. that doesn’t make those chicken wings HARAM! Don’t you believe in the Quran?
Islam says women should cover themselves from head to toe. Does that affect growth of Muslim (or any) countries? No. The growth of the western countries was not because of their women.
Obviously it does, because women are so oppressed in these Muslim countries (especially the Arab ones) .. there have been thousands upon thousands of human rights violations against women in Saudi Arabia. Women over there are not even treated like human beings .. They are burned if they don’t wear a burka. (Don’t you go saying that the “Western Media” portrays these Muslim countries this way, because this kind of crap happens all the time, and it keeps happening because people like you, love to lie to themselves) Now that’s some respect for women!
Islam says no strip bars. Does that affect growth of Muslim (or any) countries? No. If neither of them cause any harm, which is better, having a strip bar or not having one?
Why can’t you let the people decide? If they are good Muslims they’ll make the right choice.. if you force this upon them.. then that’s not Islam.
Islam says fight for what belongs to you. Does that affect growth of Muslim (or any) countries? No
What if you kill a couple of thousand innocent people in the process? What if you really don’t know what you are fighting for? Why aren’t Muslims fighting against their governments in the Muslim countries to get back the rights that belong to them? And why aren’t the good Muslim leaders giving them back?
Come on.. grow up! Or at least read the Quran if you want to preach Islam. Because there are too many of you ignoramuses out there who think they know what they are talking about, but have NO IDEA!
sh
Obviously it does, how many Muslim authors, artists, and clerics who did not agree with the government’s version of Islam have been executed or made to disappear?
Just recently … because of the mounting pressure of students, a death sentence was lifted off of a professor of history who was accused of blasphemy in Iran.
“Hashemi Aghajari, a professor of history, was accused of blasphemy by a provincial court in the city of Hamadan and condemned to death. Aghari’s offence was to make the remark that Moslems are not “apes” and as a result are not obliged to “blindly” follow their religious leaders. Following the sentence, students demonstrated and boycotted classes at a number of universities last week. Thousands of university students joined the protests in Hamadan itself and in other cities—including Täbriz, Isfahan, and above all in Teheran.”
THANK GOD for these “Godless” students who saved this poor guy’s life.
Islam asks you to pray 5 times a day. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam asks you to fast one month in a year. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam asks you to give charity. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
For the last three .. I don’t think anything is wrong with these things. But why should the government or anyone else force any of these things upon you? That’s compulsion in religion, and it’s totally against what the Quran says. .. Don’t you believe in the Quran?
Islam asks you to fight the oppressors. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Who are the oppressors? You mean you want the Muslim people to overthrow their own "muslim" governments in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, Yemen… huh??
Islam says no sex before marriage. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Obviously it does, it violates human rights. Because their stupid sharia law tells them to stone people to death if they are “accused” of having sex outside marrage! If that doesn’t seem oppressive and reprehensible, I really don’t know what else to say to you?
Islam says no drinking. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Islam says no gambling. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
These last two questions I don’t even feel like answering. If you consider yourself a Muslim, then don’t drink.. but why the heck does the less than perfect government of rich old Arab bigots have to butt into your private lives? (I think putting limits on drinking and gambling is a good Idea, just like we have in the good ‘ole USA and Canada and most non-Muslim countries)
Islam says eat halal food. Does that affect growth of Muslim(or any) countries? No
Halal food is probably the MOST misunderstood concept in Islam. What is halal food? Well.. lets see what our good friend the Quran says:
Sura II-173
He hath ONLY forbidden you
Dead meat, and blood,
And the flesh of Swine,
And that on which
ANY OTHER NAME HATH BEEN INVOKED
*BESIDES* THAT OF GOD!
But if one is forced by necessity,
Without willful disobedience,
Nor transgressing due limits,
Then is he guiltless,
For God is Oft-forgiving
Most Merciful.
So my brothers and sisters, you can eat all the McDonalds and Purdue chicken you want!
Because, the people who carve those things up aren’t saying Marylin Manson’s name or any other name at all.. so by-gollie according to what the Quran says.. that doesn’t make those chicken wings HARAM! Don’t you believe in the Quran?
Islam says women should cover themselves from head to toe. Does that affect growth of Muslim (or any) countries? No. The growth of the western countries was not because of their women.
Obviously it does, because women are so oppressed in these Muslim countries (especially the Arab ones) .. there have been thousands upon thousands of human rights violations against women in Saudi Arabia. Women over there are not even treated like human beings .. They are burned if they don’t wear a burka. (Don’t you go saying that the “Western Media” portrays these Muslim countries this way, because this kind of crap happens all the time, and it keeps happening because people like you, love to lie to themselves) Now that’s some respect for women!
Islam says no strip bars. Does that affect growth of Muslim (or any) countries? No. If neither of them cause any harm, which is better, having a strip bar or not having one?
Why can’t you let the people decide? If they are good Muslims they’ll make the right choice.. if you force this upon them.. then that’s not Islam.
Islam says fight for what belongs to you. Does that affect growth of Muslim (or any) countries? No
What if you kill a couple of thousand innocent people in the process? What if you really don’t know what you are fighting for? Why aren’t Muslims fighting against their governments in the Muslim countries to get back the rights that belong to them? And why aren’t the good Muslim leaders giving them back?
Come on.. grow up! Or at least read the Quran if you want to preach Islam. Because there are too many of you ignoramuses out there who think they know what they are talking about, but have NO IDEA!
sh
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
"Would you go live in Saudi Arabia or Iran as a citizen of those respective countries?"
Actually a lot of them would love to, except that the Saudi Arabian and Iranian immigration laws are very strict for Muslims and not as tolerant and forgiving as the Western countries that these same individuals despise, but take advantage of anyway.
When was the last time you heard of an Iranian or Pakistani seeking false political asylum in Saudi Arabia, or just showing up without Visas and still entitled to due process ? Hell their own citizens don't enjoy these rights !
Actually a lot of them would love to, except that the Saudi Arabian and Iranian immigration laws are very strict for Muslims and not as tolerant and forgiving as the Western countries that these same individuals despise, but take advantage of anyway.
When was the last time you heard of an Iranian or Pakistani seeking false political asylum in Saudi Arabia, or just showing up without Visas and still entitled to due process ? Hell their own citizens don't enjoy these rights !
-
Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
.
Br. Barwani
AS
You wrote: "Because, the people who carve those things up aren’t saying Marylin Manson’s name or any other name at all.. so by-gollie according to what the Quran says.. that doesn’t make those chicken wings HARAM! Don’t you believe in the Quran? "
Besides Quran there is sunnah of Prophet. And as per Sunnah there is a specific way to slaughter the animal. It is called 'Zibah'. Before you jump up and down and run to nearest McDonald please consult a book on rules of Zibah.
Hijab:
Quran has a Ayah asking women to cover-up and not show her charms. I have known young sisters who feel very comfortable in Hijab and think it is very liberating. I know a young girl who told her classmates that she is going to start wearing Hijab and had articulated her views in local paper in Boston. Her mother and older sister does not wear Hijab (Except at Islamic Center). Banning Hijab in predominantly Muslim Turky is not oppresing? Properly educated and informed sisters would prefer Hijab then Nudity.
I really do not know who is forcing Islam down your throat. If you do not want Islam then do not keep company of those people. True Islam comes from within, Nobody can make you swollow it.
Wasalaam and peace. Its good month to read and understand Quran and reflect on it.
.
Br. Barwani
AS
You wrote: "Because, the people who carve those things up aren’t saying Marylin Manson’s name or any other name at all.. so by-gollie according to what the Quran says.. that doesn’t make those chicken wings HARAM! Don’t you believe in the Quran? "
Besides Quran there is sunnah of Prophet. And as per Sunnah there is a specific way to slaughter the animal. It is called 'Zibah'. Before you jump up and down and run to nearest McDonald please consult a book on rules of Zibah.
Hijab:
Quran has a Ayah asking women to cover-up and not show her charms. I have known young sisters who feel very comfortable in Hijab and think it is very liberating. I know a young girl who told her classmates that she is going to start wearing Hijab and had articulated her views in local paper in Boston. Her mother and older sister does not wear Hijab (Except at Islamic Center). Banning Hijab in predominantly Muslim Turky is not oppresing? Properly educated and informed sisters would prefer Hijab then Nudity.
I really do not know who is forcing Islam down your throat. If you do not want Islam then do not keep company of those people. True Islam comes from within, Nobody can make you swollow it.
Wasalaam and peace. Its good month to read and understand Quran and reflect on it.
.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
MF,
Besides Quran there is sunnah of Prophet. And as per Sunnah there is a specific way to slaughter the animal. It is called 'Zibah'. Before you jump up and down and run to nearest McDonald please consult a book on rules of Zibah.
Here is a Hadith regarding this matter.
Narrated By 'Aisha: A group of people said to the Prophet, "Some people bring us meat and we do not know whether they have mentioned Allah's Name or not on slaughtering the animal." He said, "Mention Allah's Name on it and eat."
Vol 7, Book 67. Hunting, Slaughtering.
Hadith 415. (Shahi Bukhari)
I find the hadith to be utterly flawed, they are from a time much after the Prophet's death and were compiled as here-say, thus the only reliable source for Muslims would be the Quran, but I have included a hadith just to make the point that the lay concept of “halal” is inconsistent with the texts (both Quran and Hadith).
sh
Besides Quran there is sunnah of Prophet. And as per Sunnah there is a specific way to slaughter the animal. It is called 'Zibah'. Before you jump up and down and run to nearest McDonald please consult a book on rules of Zibah.
Here is a Hadith regarding this matter.
Narrated By 'Aisha: A group of people said to the Prophet, "Some people bring us meat and we do not know whether they have mentioned Allah's Name or not on slaughtering the animal." He said, "Mention Allah's Name on it and eat."
Vol 7, Book 67. Hunting, Slaughtering.
Hadith 415. (Shahi Bukhari)
I find the hadith to be utterly flawed, they are from a time much after the Prophet's death and were compiled as here-say, thus the only reliable source for Muslims would be the Quran, but I have included a hadith just to make the point that the lay concept of “halal” is inconsistent with the texts (both Quran and Hadith).
sh
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Day before yesterday, I was surprised when I saw mawlana of sunni orthodox mosque in Mc-Donalds. I asked him he said that there is no wrong in eating mc-donalds. Just say bismillah and eat it he said. I was surprised. He is from Saudi. I told him that in our country we eat only somting that is zibah. He said that if you are eating the zibah food that’s fine and if you are not eating then there is no harm in it. The mawlana is very repectfull personality here in muslim society. He said that in sunnies there are three different schools of thought for zibah.
This was first time I heard this. Then I tried to search and many said that there is no harm in eating. But they were not from India or pak. When I asked my mom back home she said that unless you are not getting any zibah food to eat u cann’t eat that Mc-Donalds food. Indonasian muslims don’t even believe in zibah food.
This was first time I heard this. Then I tried to search and many said that there is no harm in eating. But they were not from India or pak. When I asked my mom back home she said that unless you are not getting any zibah food to eat u cann’t eat that Mc-Donalds food. Indonasian muslims don’t even believe in zibah food.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
This is in response to anajami’s post.
Every Muslim including me feels very happy and proud to read what you wrote. Those are all basic moral values; most of them are true for all religions. But when you search in depth then I feel nausicca gave good explanation why country should not be very rigid. Along with the points mentioned in by nausicca there are many other points on which people may differ in their views. These are the main reason for Muslim countries being backward.
If enforcing those rules is very good idea then why not those Muslim countries are developing.
Every Muslim including me feels very happy and proud to read what you wrote. Those are all basic moral values; most of them are true for all religions. But when you search in depth then I feel nausicca gave good explanation why country should not be very rigid. Along with the points mentioned in by nausicca there are many other points on which people may differ in their views. These are the main reason for Muslim countries being backward.
If enforcing those rules is very good idea then why not those Muslim countries are developing.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
I know a young girl who told her classmates that she is going to start wearing Hijab and had articulated her views in local paper in Boston. Her mother and older sister does not wear Hijab (Except at Islamic Center).
I am all for wearing whatever you feel comfortable in. The problem starts when you impose the dress code on everybody under the threat of whippings and lashes.
Banning Hijab in predominantly Muslim Turky is not oppresing?
It is. And isn't banning everything except the hideous black abaya in Saudi Arabia far more oppressive?
Properly educated and informed sisters would prefer Hijab then Nudity.</I>
That's a false dichotomy. There are lots of other choices between the two.
-N
I am all for wearing whatever you feel comfortable in. The problem starts when you impose the dress code on everybody under the threat of whippings and lashes.
Banning Hijab in predominantly Muslim Turky is not oppresing?
It is. And isn't banning everything except the hideous black abaya in Saudi Arabia far more oppressive?
Properly educated and informed sisters would prefer Hijab then Nudity.</I>
That's a false dichotomy. There are lots of other choices between the two.
-N
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
“Properly educated and informed sisters would prefer Hijab then Nudity.”
I except, I feel Muslim First has a point here. There might be some exceptions. Hijab means wearing cloths with modesty. Modesty is more relative term. It is more dependent on culture. If you are leaving in India and pak and if you are wearing skirts or very low neck then that may take the attention of other people on body part which are supposed to be hidden. But wearing just middy is fine for India and Pakistan. But if you are living in Saudi, afghan where people are very narrow minded and people mind will get diverted easily to those part of the females body which should be hidden. So hijab is more relative. Modesty is very relative. It depends upon which society you are living in.
I except, I feel Muslim First has a point here. There might be some exceptions. Hijab means wearing cloths with modesty. Modesty is more relative term. It is more dependent on culture. If you are leaving in India and pak and if you are wearing skirts or very low neck then that may take the attention of other people on body part which are supposed to be hidden. But wearing just middy is fine for India and Pakistan. But if you are living in Saudi, afghan where people are very narrow minded and people mind will get diverted easily to those part of the females body which should be hidden. So hijab is more relative. Modesty is very relative. It depends upon which society you are living in.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
I think having strong moral values is important. And I want to reiterate that the core Islamic values in the statements that Anajmi had made were all things that made us better people. The problem arises when these values are forced on people.
As time goes on and people’s outlook on the world evolves, so do the applications of these core moral values. Take for example: Slavery. During the time of the Prophet slavery was allowed, but in the Quran there are many passages that tell people to treat their slaves well and if possible, free them. The statements regarding slavery do not tell us to go out and buy slaves and then be kind to them, they just reiterate the core moral value underlying that statement: Be kind to others. The dietary laws that are prescribed within the Quran are meant for the same reason. They are practical applications of core values appropriate to the times. (e.g. do not eat things that are lying dead in the forest because you might not know what disease they have) This is also true in regard to the modesty in dress required for women. During the time of the Prophet, women did not enjoy as many rights as they do today and because of this lower social status, they needed to be protected from the “others” that might do harm to them. Today women have much more freedom and security than they had 14 centuries ago, thus forcing a woman to wear a full black burka would not be applicable to our modern societies. But if she chooses to do so, it would be up to her discretion.
The same goes for the other values you stated:
Prayer – Be thankful for what you have
Fasting – Again, be thankful and respectful of what you have
Charity – Allow others to share in the joys of life.
Drinking – Be completely aware of what you say and do.
Gambling – Do not be wasteful of what you have because others might not be so fortunate.
Halal Food – Keep your body in good physical condition
Women should cover themselves – Be modest in front of others.
Fight for what belongs to you, Fight the Oppressors - This very questionable, because today Muslims are in the mode of what Russell called “persecution-mania” so the first reaction is to attack who you think is out to get you or to seclude yourself from everyone else – and that is exactly what we should not be doing today.
I don’t know where you get this “No Strip bars” – I’ve never read that in the Quran, but I guess this also goes back to Modesty .
I was not attacking the core values of Islam, because the ethics preached in all religions and ethical doctrines are the same. My only qualms are with the forced application of these anachronistic dogmas spewed by the Muslim youth and self-anointed “Islamic rulers”.
sh
As time goes on and people’s outlook on the world evolves, so do the applications of these core moral values. Take for example: Slavery. During the time of the Prophet slavery was allowed, but in the Quran there are many passages that tell people to treat their slaves well and if possible, free them. The statements regarding slavery do not tell us to go out and buy slaves and then be kind to them, they just reiterate the core moral value underlying that statement: Be kind to others. The dietary laws that are prescribed within the Quran are meant for the same reason. They are practical applications of core values appropriate to the times. (e.g. do not eat things that are lying dead in the forest because you might not know what disease they have) This is also true in regard to the modesty in dress required for women. During the time of the Prophet, women did not enjoy as many rights as they do today and because of this lower social status, they needed to be protected from the “others” that might do harm to them. Today women have much more freedom and security than they had 14 centuries ago, thus forcing a woman to wear a full black burka would not be applicable to our modern societies. But if she chooses to do so, it would be up to her discretion.
The same goes for the other values you stated:
Prayer – Be thankful for what you have
Fasting – Again, be thankful and respectful of what you have
Charity – Allow others to share in the joys of life.
Drinking – Be completely aware of what you say and do.
Gambling – Do not be wasteful of what you have because others might not be so fortunate.
Halal Food – Keep your body in good physical condition
Women should cover themselves – Be modest in front of others.
Fight for what belongs to you, Fight the Oppressors - This very questionable, because today Muslims are in the mode of what Russell called “persecution-mania” so the first reaction is to attack who you think is out to get you or to seclude yourself from everyone else – and that is exactly what we should not be doing today.
I don’t know where you get this “No Strip bars” – I’ve never read that in the Quran, but I guess this also goes back to Modesty .
I was not attacking the core values of Islam, because the ethics preached in all religions and ethical doctrines are the same. My only qualms are with the forced application of these anachronistic dogmas spewed by the Muslim youth and self-anointed “Islamic rulers”.
sh
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
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Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
.
Mr. B. and br Khusema
Please read the following Ayah from holy Quran
It specifically mentions that you take the name of Allah.
Ask the Shaikh from SA abour this.
Q. 22:36
Yusuf Ali: The sacrificial camels we have made for you as among the Symbols from Allah: in them is (much) good for you: THEN PRONOUNCE THE NAME OF ALLAH over them as they line up (for sacrifice): when they are down on their sides (after slaughter) eat ye thereof and feed such as (beg not but) live in contentment and such as beg with due humility: thus have we made animals subject to you that ye may be grateful.
Pickthall:And the camels! We have appointed them among the ceremonies of Allah. Therein ye have much good. SO MENTION THE NAME OF ALLAH over them when they are drawn up in lines. Then when their flanks fall (dead), eat thereof and feed the beggar and the suppliant. Thus have We made them subject unto you, that haply ye may give thanks.
Transliteration: Wal budna ja'alna_ha_ lakum min sa'a_ril la_hi lakum fiha_ khairun fazkurus mal la_hi 'alaiha_ sawa_f fa iza_ wajabat junu_buha_ fakulu_ minha_ wa at'imul qa_ni'a wal mu'tar kaza_lika sakh kharna_ha_ lakum la'al lakum taskurun
Zibah is guidance from Allah and his Rasool and you may take all of it or none of it. Choice is yours.
N.
Once again there is a guidance regarding Hijab in Quran. You can follow it or not.
Majority Muslim countries can enforce it (SA) or prohibit (Turky) it.
If you are in culturally Islamic enviournment you will get occasional dirty looks or comments if you are not modestly covered. If you do not like it then don't go there or be brave and ignore it.
B.
Muslims are eateing properly slaughtered meat since the inception of the religion. Please do not make issue out of it. Accept the fact that Zaboa requirements are there in Islam.
This is my last commets.
Wasalaam
.
Mr. B. and br Khusema
Please read the following Ayah from holy Quran
It specifically mentions that you take the name of Allah.
Ask the Shaikh from SA abour this.
Q. 22:36
Yusuf Ali: The sacrificial camels we have made for you as among the Symbols from Allah: in them is (much) good for you: THEN PRONOUNCE THE NAME OF ALLAH over them as they line up (for sacrifice): when they are down on their sides (after slaughter) eat ye thereof and feed such as (beg not but) live in contentment and such as beg with due humility: thus have we made animals subject to you that ye may be grateful.
Pickthall:And the camels! We have appointed them among the ceremonies of Allah. Therein ye have much good. SO MENTION THE NAME OF ALLAH over them when they are drawn up in lines. Then when their flanks fall (dead), eat thereof and feed the beggar and the suppliant. Thus have We made them subject unto you, that haply ye may give thanks.
Transliteration: Wal budna ja'alna_ha_ lakum min sa'a_ril la_hi lakum fiha_ khairun fazkurus mal la_hi 'alaiha_ sawa_f fa iza_ wajabat junu_buha_ fakulu_ minha_ wa at'imul qa_ni'a wal mu'tar kaza_lika sakh kharna_ha_ lakum la'al lakum taskurun
Zibah is guidance from Allah and his Rasool and you may take all of it or none of it. Choice is yours.
N.
Once again there is a guidance regarding Hijab in Quran. You can follow it or not.
Majority Muslim countries can enforce it (SA) or prohibit (Turky) it.
If you are in culturally Islamic enviournment you will get occasional dirty looks or comments if you are not modestly covered. If you do not like it then don't go there or be brave and ignore it.
B.
Muslims are eateing properly slaughtered meat since the inception of the religion. Please do not make issue out of it. Accept the fact that Zaboa requirements are there in Islam.
This is my last commets.
Wasalaam
.
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
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Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
.
I am sorry I spelled br. Khuzema's name wrong. My apology.
Wasalaam
.
I am sorry I spelled br. Khuzema's name wrong. My apology.
Wasalaam
.
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
.
The same goes for the other values you stated:
Prayer – Be thankful for what you have
MAKE UP YOUR OWN WAY OF PRAYERS AND SCHEDULE. IT WILL SUFFICE
Fasting – Again, be thankful and respectful of what you have
MAKE UP YOUR OWN WAY TO FAST AT YOUR OWN CONVIENCE AND IT WILL SUFFICE
Charity – Allow others to share in the joys of life.
GIVE WHATEVER YOU CAN OR WANT. DAMN THOSE RULES ABOUT ZAKAT
Drinking – Be completely aware of what you say and do.
DRINK ANY BEAVARAGE YOU WANT TO SO LONG AS YOU ARE AWARE OF WHAT YOU DO OR SAY
Gambling – Do not be wasteful of what you have because others might not be so fortunate.
OCCASIONAL BET ON LOTTARY IS OK OR MODEST AMOUNT GAMBLED AT CASINO IS OK.
Halal Food – Keep your body in good physical condition
EAT HEALTHY MEAT (EVEN PORK WILL DO-IT IS HEALTY AND GOOD FOR BODY) SO LONG AS IT IS INSPECTED BY THE GOVERMENT AND PROPERLY COOKED.
Women should cover themselves – Be modest in front of others.
LET ME BE THE JUDGE OF MODESTY
.
The same goes for the other values you stated:
Prayer – Be thankful for what you have
MAKE UP YOUR OWN WAY OF PRAYERS AND SCHEDULE. IT WILL SUFFICE
Fasting – Again, be thankful and respectful of what you have
MAKE UP YOUR OWN WAY TO FAST AT YOUR OWN CONVIENCE AND IT WILL SUFFICE
Charity – Allow others to share in the joys of life.
GIVE WHATEVER YOU CAN OR WANT. DAMN THOSE RULES ABOUT ZAKAT
Drinking – Be completely aware of what you say and do.
DRINK ANY BEAVARAGE YOU WANT TO SO LONG AS YOU ARE AWARE OF WHAT YOU DO OR SAY
Gambling – Do not be wasteful of what you have because others might not be so fortunate.
OCCASIONAL BET ON LOTTARY IS OK OR MODEST AMOUNT GAMBLED AT CASINO IS OK.
Halal Food – Keep your body in good physical condition
EAT HEALTHY MEAT (EVEN PORK WILL DO-IT IS HEALTY AND GOOD FOR BODY) SO LONG AS IT IS INSPECTED BY THE GOVERMENT AND PROPERLY COOKED.
Women should cover themselves – Be modest in front of others.
LET ME BE THE JUDGE OF MODESTY
.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Muslim First,
Should not everything you do come from the heart, as real rather than forced devotion?
sh
Should not everything you do come from the heart, as real rather than forced devotion?
sh
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
.
Barwani
"Should not everything you do come from the heart, as real rather than forced"
Yes. 47 years of my life I was nominal Muslim. Then Allah gave me proverbial slap (Big C). Allah also gave me sense to recognise the SLAP. I read and accepted form the hart and understood my religion. I do not pontificate my faith in my real life. I do not even tell my son or wife. Some day they will receive their own Slap (I pray and hope not) and I hope they wiil recognize the sign and mend their way. Coice is theirs.
Yes everything you do shold be from your heart.
Wasalaam
.
Barwani
"Should not everything you do come from the heart, as real rather than forced"
Yes. 47 years of my life I was nominal Muslim. Then Allah gave me proverbial slap (Big C). Allah also gave me sense to recognise the SLAP. I read and accepted form the hart and understood my religion. I do not pontificate my faith in my real life. I do not even tell my son or wife. Some day they will receive their own Slap (I pray and hope not) and I hope they wiil recognize the sign and mend their way. Coice is theirs.
Yes everything you do shold be from your heart.
Wasalaam
.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Dear MF,
Sorry to learn of your condition. I hope and pray the disease is in remission. Good luck and Regards.
Sorry to learn of your condition. I hope and pray the disease is in remission. Good luck and Regards.
Re: Progressive Muslim Youth .. an Oxymoron?
Br. Muslim First,(I didn't put "Br." before your name earlier because I didn't know if you were male or female) 
<I>“Yes everything you do shold be from your heart.”</I>
Thank you, this was the point I was trying to make from the beginning: that Muslim Governments should not force religion on their people, and it should allow their people to come to terms with their faith and if necessary get a <I>“proverbial slap”</I> from Allah. The same goes for Muslim individuals (youth especially) who have an air self-righteousness, they should not criticize others for their beliefs without questioning their own beliefs thoroughly and I feel that questioning your beliefs should not stop until the day you die! Because we humans are fallible creatures, prone to err. (This goes for me too, because I became a bit defensive after Anajmi’s post)
I find it highly commendable that you don’t <I>“pontificate [your] faith in [your] real life. [and you] do not even tell [your] son or wife.” </I> Don’t you feel all Muslims should live this way and give that same courtesy to others? Won’t our Muslim countries be much better places and we can actually have understanding rather than hatred?
Thanks sharing your thoughts and hearing mine.
sh
<I>“Yes everything you do shold be from your heart.”</I>
Thank you, this was the point I was trying to make from the beginning: that Muslim Governments should not force religion on their people, and it should allow their people to come to terms with their faith and if necessary get a <I>“proverbial slap”</I> from Allah. The same goes for Muslim individuals (youth especially) who have an air self-righteousness, they should not criticize others for their beliefs without questioning their own beliefs thoroughly and I feel that questioning your beliefs should not stop until the day you die! Because we humans are fallible creatures, prone to err. (This goes for me too, because I became a bit defensive after Anajmi’s post)
I find it highly commendable that you don’t <I>“pontificate [your] faith in [your] real life. [and you] do not even tell [your] son or wife.” </I> Don’t you feel all Muslims should live this way and give that same courtesy to others? Won’t our Muslim countries be much better places and we can actually have understanding rather than hatred?
Thanks sharing your thoughts and hearing mine.
sh