Rejection of event of Gadheer

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humble_servant_us
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Rejection of event of Gadheer

#1

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:13 am

I think there are many fellow Bohras on this board who have taken up the Ahle sunnah school of thought. With all due respects to them can we understand as what led them to rejection of the incidence of al-Gadheer(appointment of H. ali(as) as the successor of the prophet(pbuh).) This is one of the events in history which is well documented in both shia and sunni sources.

Was it their frustration with the mal-practices of the current Bohra regime or there is some sound rationale behind it.

This question is specifically for Bohras accepting the sunni school of thought, if any.

anajmi
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#2

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:16 pm

The problem is that the Bohra Imam is in hiding for centuries, and I can imagine why, he is a bohra after all. The deeds of the Dai are well known. If you need more "sound rationale", there are well over 10,000 posts on this forum which you can peruse at your convenience. If you have a specific question, please post so that we can try to answer. As far as Hazrat Ali being appointed successor is concerned, I have no problems with any version of Ghadeer. Doesn't make any difference to me. Hazrat Ali taught the same namaaz, roza, zakaat, hajj, quran as the prophet did. He didn't add, subtract or modify from the religion of Islam. There is no evidence that Hazrat Ali combined prayers during his rule like the bohras do. So, the Ahle Sunna are following Hazrat Ali more than the bohras are!!

haseebsiddique
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#3

Unread post by haseebsiddique » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:26 pm

Salams Brother Anajmi,
I fully agree with your statment "the Ahle Sunna are following Hazrat Ali more than the bohras are"
You are right. This exactly has been my arguement with the local 'Slave Bohras' over the years.

Gursevak
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#4

Unread post by Gursevak » Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:04 pm

So, the Ahle Sunna are following Hazrat Ali more than the bohras are!!
but they took a detour or is that 3 detours before following Ali - safar lamba hon aur saathi khubsoorat hon to.....

hehehehehe

jiyo puttar jiyo.

sab ka malik ek, allah ali ishwar hari ram wai guru

makberi
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#5

Unread post by makberi » Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:10 am

maulana ali claim to the position of khalifate was based on the fact the he was a member of the ahlul bayt....and also appointed imam hasan to be his successor....does the sunni world accept that???

anajmi
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#6

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:23 am

Actually, if you talk to some bohra scholars, it doesn't matter that Hazrat Ali was the 4th Khalifa, he was still the foundation of Imamat and Hazrat Hassan was the 1st Imam and Hazrat Hussein was the 2nd Imam. I don't think the khilafat had anything to do with the Imamat.

makberi
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#7

Unread post by makberi » Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:35 am

its not really abt the khalifat or the immamat ....the question is...does the sunni muslim recognise maulana ali as the leader of the community ...and his family members as the leaders who followed him....

anajmi
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#8

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:41 am

Hazrat Ali was the leader of the Muslim Ummah. Hazrat Hussein never was. He should've been, but he never was. So how can you recognize him to be something he was not?

makberi
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#9

Unread post by makberi » Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:16 am

many ppl recognized hussain as the leader of the muslim ummah...many ppl still recognise the members of the ahlul bayt to be leaders of the muslim ummah....thats where the dispute is ...rite!!!

Zeal
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#10

Unread post by Zeal » Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:26 am

its not really abt the khalifat or the immamat ....the question is...does the sunni muslim recognise maulana ali as the leader of the community ...and his family members as the leaders who followed him....
__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Sunni muslims recognize maulana ali more than bohras recognize any other khalifa of prophet muhammed(pbuh)
Since both are the ummah of the prophet it is clear who has been really followed his teachings.

Prophet muhammed(pbuh) never cursed any of his enemies, unlike his bohra ummah who curse his own khalifas openly.

The family members of maulana Ali are also given due respect by the sunnis and they realize the importance of shahadat of imam husain, though they dont show it by beating their chests (as it again goes against the basic teaching of prophet muhammed(pbuh))

mohammed_truthseeker
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#11

Unread post by mohammed_truthseeker » Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:28 am

Originally posted by Gursevak:
So, the Ahle Sunna are following Hazrat Ali more than the bohras are!!
but they took a detour or is that 3 detours before following Ali - safar lamba hon aur saathi khubsoorat hon to.....

hehehehehe

jiyo puttar jiyo.

sab ka malik ek, allah ali ishwar hari ram wai guru
I like the way you use the term "slave bohras" - it is quite funny. but I must say that the picture as it is made out over here of the ordinary bohras is not that distorted. People are not like slaves.

Mohammed

mohammed_truthseeker
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#12

Unread post by mohammed_truthseeker » Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:30 am

Originally posted by Muslim-First Nephew:
Salams Brother Anajmi,
I fully agree with your statment "the Ahle Sunna are following Hazrat Ali more than the bohras are"
You are right. This exactly has been my arguement with the local 'Slave Bohras' over the years.
I like the way you use the term "slave bohras" - it is quite funny. but I must say that the picture as it is made out over here of the ordinary bohras is not that distorted. People are not like slaves.

Mohammed

anajmi
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#13

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:00 pm

many ppl recognized hussain as the leader of the muslim ummah
Some of these same people recognize the hiding Imam as the leader. Others recognize some living Imam as the leader. Still others recognize the Syedna as the leader. Hazrat Hussein was still far better than any of these.

Gursevak
Posts: 249
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#14

Unread post by Gursevak » Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:28 pm

Some of these same people recognize the hiding Imam as the leader. Others recognize some living Imam as the leader. Still others recognize the Syedna as the leader.
did makberi not write "thats where the dispute is ...rite!!! "

humble_servant_us
Posts: 471
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#15

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:57 am

Anajmi

What i understand from you post is -
You see the bohra regime corrupt and unislamic, they have a concept of hidden imam who according to you should have solved things right if he exist. However since things don't change you get reasons of not believing in him and you move your focus to a sect who has no such concept of hidden/living imam. Is this correct.

A more specific question for you.

Do you believe in the successorship of prophet(pbuh)as divinely appointed (as per shia school of thought) or ummah selected/nominated/appointed.(as per sunni school of thought). If so why.

anajmi
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#16

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:35 pm

humble servant,
they have a concept of hidden imam who according to you should have solved things right if he exist.
I am not sure which post of mine gives you that idea? There is a living Imam right now opening art galleries. Even he can't solve problems that we are having. His idiotic followers agree that we need to solve our problems on our own. That is the view of the quran too. The Imam, hidden or not, doesn't have the power to solve anything. Specially those that are hidden or are in their graves.

With the kind of divinely appointed leaders that we have today, I believe leadership should be ummah appointed. That way if one goes into hiding another one can be appointed in his place. If one gets corrupt, he can be kicked out and another appointed in his place.

Gursevak
Posts: 249
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#17

Unread post by Gursevak » Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:17 pm

I believe leadership should be ummah appointed. That way if one goes into hiding another one can be appointed in his place. If one gets corrupt, he can be kicked out and another appointed in his place.
appointed - by whom? What if the appointing commission is itself corrupt. who will be the judge. if u mean elected we are into politics then righton man let us all appoint god

porus
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#18

Unread post by porus » Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:00 pm

and what about the prophet? wasn't he divinely appointed and then died? what a pity. let us now appoint/elect/nominate another prophet....

anajmi
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#19

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:19 pm

porus,

You are welcome to do that. Do not expect me to believe in him though. I know you well enough to know not to believe in prophets appointed by you.

Gursevak
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#20

Unread post by Gursevak » Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:06 pm

I know you well enough to know not to believe in prophets appointed by you.
can i put forward a name. and isnt even entertaining the thought of a prophet after muhammad is haram. hum sab harami hein yahan

anajmi
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#21

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:54 pm

Gud,

You certainly are. Don't know about the others.

humble_servant_us
Posts: 471
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#22

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:41 am

anajmi,

Many can claim they are divinely appointed but it may not be true. The basic criterion for a divinely appointed leader should be that his character and activities should be in line with the prophet(pbuh) and Quran. If he doesn't meet these he may claim to be the chosen one but in reality he is not. He is fooling the people and history is full of such people.

So let's not talk about these guys. What i want to know is will you accept a divinely appointed system or a ummah appointed one.

Both shias and sunnis agree that leadership is very important in islam. On the day of ghadeer prophet(pbuh) established the foundation of imamat/khilafat(leadership) in islam by declaring h.ali(a.s) as his successor by the will of Allah(swt). After H.ali(as) his successors were chosen by Allah(swt) as the leaders of the ummah, though the ummah did not accept them as leaders which was highly unfortunate for islam.
We all know what blunders the ummah made when given a chance to elect, men like Muawiya and Yazid were preffered as leaders over pesonalities like hasan(as) and Husain(as).

Ummah not accepting them as leaders did not nullify their office of imamat because the responsibility of imams was far more than just accepting a worldy title of khilafa with limited powers which the ummah of that time decreed to then khalifas. This is analogous to if jews and christians didn't accept prophet(pbuh) as the mesenger it doesn't mean that prophethood was not divine. Do you agree ?

Gursevak
Posts: 249
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#23

Unread post by Gursevak » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:14 am

Anajmi ,

u have dodged all the "tricky" questions i put to u and the other wahabis - like what did mother of believers aisha mean by the hadith i have posted elsewhere or will angels of mercy not visit mosques that allow guide dogs or....
Gud,

You certainly are. Don't know about the others.
that is what makes u a muslim u see - quick to point fingers at others never willing to acknowledge own faults. as an honest non-muslim i do not deny i have an evil streak in me just like most other humans i know but it seems like an unwritten pillar of wahabi islam not to admit u r less than perfect. and read the adjective "unwritten" before jumping in with prove it prove it.

u have been made to look worse than ever by porus but being a true wahabi u keep on coming back for more humiliation. as pardesi mentioned u r indicative of where the malaise lies and why muslims dont make the progress one would have expected, u r the enemy within.

anajmi
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#24

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:37 pm

Gud,

I am glad you acknowledge that you are a harami. If I was one, I would've acknowledged too.

jawanmardan
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#25

Unread post by jawanmardan » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:07 pm

In regard to this matter Shia view leadership of the Ummah as been divinely appointed and that it extends into the religious, and secular spheres.

The Sunni view it as being an election process, which was defined by their Khalifas, and that it revolves purely in the secular realm, that the Khalifas enforce the religious but refrain from interpretation.

There is no absolute proof in either argument, one must read and make a rationle decision. Personally I found the Shia perspective far more compelling, a sunni may disagree.

Yet moderate members of both schools should recognise that these historical factors brought us to where we are now, and while they are worth studying for our own understanding of our origins, they should not act as a point of division between us.

If the Ummah is to truly unite, then it will take moderate members of any and all tariqahs.

anajmi
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#26

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:29 pm

jawanmardan,

Is there a divinely appointed leader today that I can approach?

Muslim First
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#27

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:35 pm

.

If the Ummah is to truly unite, then it will take moderate members of any and all tariqahs.
Ummah will not be united until all of us will learn to say "let us forget the past". Sunnis should not be blamed for events of 1400 years old . Let shia believe in their Gaib Imaam, or Imam in hiding". so long as they adhere to 5 core principle, they are Muslims. Those who have abandoned any of 5 let them go on their own.

Wasalaam
.

Gursevak
Posts: 249
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 4:01 am

Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#28

Unread post by Gursevak » Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:13 am

anajmi do u know ur halal from ur haram - u r full of the latter and that is not my verdict but ur prophet's but of course u know better than him don't u?

Gursevak
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#29

Unread post by Gursevak » Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:38 am

anajmi u and ur fellow wahabis are theologically corrupt, morally bankrupt and spiritually bereft. that should be ur epitaph. and please do not provide more evidence by responding. u could do all a great service by diving haedlong into the cesspit from which u have crawled out. do a greater service by taking your cohorts as well in a kind of suicide dive

Alislam
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Re: Rejection of event of Gadheer

#30

Unread post by Alislam » Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:18 am

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

"Sunnis should not be blamed for events of 1400 years old . Let shia believe in their Gaib Imaam, or Imam in hiding". so long as they adhere to 5 core principle, they are Muslims".
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

The likes of you have never considered shias as muslims, even though they adhere to the core principles of Islam.

extremists are all from the same single school of thought and outwardly they profess to follow the "Core Principles" and think they have licence to say or do anything in the name of Islam.

Unless this attitude changes, there is no question of unity among ummah.