a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Al Zulfiqar
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Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#1

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:09 pm

is there a way out of the present mess of the bohra community and its exploitation by the dai and his establishment on religious grounds?

whenever any bohra questions an amil or anyone from the kothar about anything which is unjust, be it about dress, money, religious practices etc, they are asked that, do u believe in the syedna, do u believe that he is our supreme leader, do u believe in the imam-uz-zaman and that the dais is his mansoos, that through this line of divinity our dai is the dai of allah? then it follows that you have to obey his every wish and command, make him happy and thereby god happy!

this line of questioning in effect silences even the strongest critic, because you cannot possibly say no to any of the above questions and still remain a bohra!

now what is the way out of this? either:

1. we throw this entire theory of the hidden imams still existing and communicating with the dai out of the window and thus destroy the corrupt dai's theological base which they use to subdue any dissent. they know that no bohra would go to this extreme since it would mean the end of their identity and bohraism as it exists.
2. that we accept and continue to live with this founding principle of our faith and let the dai keep exploiting us and hope that one day this imam-uz-zaman will reveal himself and thus end the tyranny of his mansoos. even this is well-nigh impossible because only the dai can authenticate this imam. a strange conundrum indeed.
3. or we make concerted efforts through some courageous but neutral aalims to find this hidden imam, establish his credentials and install him as our leader. this would obviously mean having the dai and his well-entrenched goons rebelling against this scheme and declaring baraat against this imam and his supporters.
4. the only alternative that remains is having the reformists chipping away at the rotten twigs and leaves, hoping that this will shake up the huge oak tree! lets not forget that over the last 7 decades the kothar has become much more cleverer and wily, has strengthened its power base amongst the politicians, knows how to manipulate the world media and completely refuses to acknowledge the presence of the reformists. not only do they not abide by the rules of our faith, but insidiously change them as they go along, thereby defeating all the attempts of the reformists to bring about change.

in the early days of the reform movement, the dai had atleast some sense of shame and accountability. now they have thrown all sense of guilt and shame out with their ethics and morals. as they become stronger, the community is becoming more and more ignorant, more complacent, more fearful, and resigned to their unchanging fate have become more cynical and corrupt themselves as well.

the reformists have decided, in their infinite wisdom, to leave this matter of the hidden imam untouched, lest their entire movement lose credibility and be chucked onto the garbage bin of history. it is too radical a thought to be contemplated by anyone. so now what? wait for a miracle ....???

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#2

Unread post by ponga bhori » Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:34 pm

My answer, Niether a miracle.
Nothing is going to happen.
Keep waiting until Qayyamat when Justice will be done.

Safiuddin
Posts: 546
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#3

Unread post by Safiuddin » Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:30 pm

This idea that there is an Imam that speaks to Burhanuddin privately in secret is completely absurd. What validation and evidence do they have for this? Who has documented Burhanuddin's conversation with the hidden Imam? Was a video taken?

The only solution that I see is to stay as far away as possible from this insane, depraved, unconsciounable cult and it's foolish members. Now i can choose my own clothes, my own path, and think for myself, and keep my money too.

When I'm dead it won't matter if I have a Bohri endorsed funeral or if my body rots on the open street. I'll be dead and I won't know any different, neither will I care.

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#4

Unread post by ponga bhori » Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:56 pm

Hah Safiuddin,
Do not worry your dead body also shall be taken care of soon by the local municipality/council and disposed off, cannot have you lying stinking for long.
Do not worry, be haPPY.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#5

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:31 pm

is that the only response..?? i was expecting something more intellectually stimulating.

isnt it possible to reconcile not having this theory of a hidden imam with our beliefs, whereby we can have a central leadership but without this crazy faith in a hidden family from which this dai draws his authority?

it would be interesting to hear from Dr Engineer and Saifuddinbhai Insaf on this issue.

S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#6

Unread post by S. Insaf » Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:34 pm

Brother Al Zulfiqar,
Money makes them stronger. So we want to weaken them stop giving money. Go to mosque, to their tamashas, celebration - do matam but do not give them any money. That is where the soul of this Genie lies.

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
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Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#7

Unread post by ponga bhori » Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:58 pm

S.Insaf,
By attending you are giving them strength of numbers, which also is very important to them.And specially when there are attendees of standing,
for them to boast about. Do not forget they often reffer themselves as "Club" and clubs need members, so best do not become "members". Businesses do best when "accounts" are open. Most institutions will not allow an account/membership to close.

So I would say: Do not become their "members"

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#8

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:27 pm

Bhai Saifuddinbhai,

I agree with whatever u say, because those are also my thoughts and what I am already doing, i.e. not paying them a single penny.

But what I do notice is that you have avoided commenting on this very central issue of the hidden Imam theory. How do we circumvent that?

Is it possible to discard that belief and still be bohras, although in some modern new avatar..?

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#9

Unread post by porus » Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:57 pm

Imamat is a fundamental lynchpin of the Bohra religion. Without Imam, this religion cannot exist.

If reformists want to retain the fundamentals of their faith without the Dai, they can surely do so. They can retain all the rituals of the 7 pillars but declare that the current Dai is not fulfilling his obligations of office and hence they will independently await the appearance of the Imam. They will then need to find Bohra ulama sufficiently advanced in religious knowledge but otherwise are of reformist bent. This would be necessary to minister to the spiritual needs of reformists.

Proto-jamaats of this type already exist in the UK. I have heard that in some cities of the USA, reformists Bohras gather together on Lailatul Qadr and other important occasions to worship together, but without Imamat namaaz.

Most reformists have abandoned the idea of raza and subservience to Royal Family and their appointed officials.

This is a prescription for a new sect in which the concept of the divine appointment of Imam is retained but in practice, it becomes irrelevant as the sect can organize around enlightened principles.

The reason for the new sect is simply that it will bring together those who share common history, religious and social experiences.

Reformist position as outlined on this site -reform while maintaing the authority of the Dai's family - is a losing proposition.

seeker110
Posts: 1727
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#10

Unread post by seeker110 » Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:30 pm

When one becomes powerful because of money,then we need to take away their money.This can be achieved by making them spend money.Keep reporting them to the government.that is everywhere in the world.Mail camere footage the the diffrent sects of muslims.Let them do something to save our behind.They might even go with it to further their own causes,so be it.Turn them in for any small wrong doings.(parking illegally).Let them pay bribes.Remember there are no reciepts in bribes.just make it costly for them.In the mean time watch them burn.They are already putting more animals on the site to report.Remember its for the sake of our children.Lets leave them a better bhora community.

makberi
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#11

Unread post by makberi » Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:55 am

recently i heard a bayan where the bhai saheb said....thats v cannot question the dai...cuz the line of dais has been appointed by the imam....who were in turn appointed by Ali..who was in turn appointed by the Prophet ....who was in turn appointed by God himself.....which makes the Dai being appointed by God himself.....so if u question the dai then ur in turn question Ali, the Prophet n God....

but lets take this a little further....the imam..appointed the dai...who appointed the local amil....n so the local amil is also appointed by God!!!!.....n cannot make mistakes!!!!......which ofcourse is not true...as everyone wud agree that the local amils are corupt at times....they are humans n can mistakes......

thus the same cud apply for the dai himself...n thts where this argument of the dai being infalliable is broken logically.....there have also been isntances where the imam has punished the dai for commiting sins.....

regarding the view of the reformists of upholding the seat of the dai..i think the policymakers have been very foresighted...we must remember that a similar struggle was there in the khoja community which led to break up of the community into the ithna ashari khojas n the ones who followed the imam.....the reformists realise that this is not the final solution...as it will not be able to save the community from the menace

then wats the solution u ask......as i have said b4 the fight is not against the dai...but against narrowmindedness and intellectual degradation of the community.....if we can make the common bohri think...ask questions then the dai wud have to change...cuz when he realises that his support is weakening he will have to play to the galleries......so let the fight be against corruption n justice..instead of really taking the seat of the dai head on or changing our beliefs....the change has to be frm the ground level...internally

it will be difficult guys i know ...right now i cant even open this website at home cuz if my parents c the name of asghar ali engineer on my computer screen they will scream the way they did when i ordered a salman rushdie novel....lol....jokes apart wat we need is awareness ....we need all of us to talk abt these issues....n make ppl think....its hard n it cud take ages...but guys tahts the only solution.....

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#12

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:01 am

Check out this most interesting video. This is how the bohras have to take care of the kotharis

It's close to 8 minutes, make sure you watch the whole thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#13

Unread post by ponga bhori » Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:10 am

Anajmi,
Will Sheeps ever behave like Buffallos.
Will have to wait till.........

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#14

Unread post by ponga bhori » Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:44 am

My answer, Niether a miracle.
Nothing is going to happen.
Keep waiting until Qayyamat when Justice will be done.

Al-Zulfi,
Please have patience.....
Wait,wait,wait...........ages,
till bhoris behave like buffallos (very possible,Darwin"s).....
until QAYAMAT.

It is for YOU to change.
The sooner the better.

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#15

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:23 pm

ponga bohri,

Maybe sheep cannot behave like buffaloes. Atleast the video is interesting.

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#16

Unread post by ponga bhori » Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:48 pm

The irony now is that we are asking the REFORMISTS to REFORM and change.
Is there a REFORMISTS of the PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI-BOHRAS in the making.

It has well been made out that as long as the Immam remains hidden, the DAI has his day.

We cannot expect the Saitan to change, for Allah is not Willing it.

like_minded
Posts: 1260
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#17

Unread post by like_minded » Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:02 am

Originally posted by ponga bhori:
My answer, Niether a miracle.
Nothing is going to happen.
Keep waiting until Qayyamat when Justice will be done.

Al-Zulfi,
Please have patience.....
Wait,wait,wait...........ages,
till bhoris behave like buffallos (very possible,Darwin"s).....
until QAYAMAT.

It is for YOU to change.
The sooner the better.
I fully agree with you, Nothing is going to happen.

What had to happen, should have happened atleast 3 decades ago, When Kothar started the brain-washing sessions.... The followers now are helpless in the hands of Kothar, They accept Kothar out of fear of unknown., Those who dont accept are either out of this fold (cult) or have just kept quite, waiting for revolution to happen, which they know would never happen.

Now, to cleanse the system, the follower has to be taught to get rid of fear, because unless he does not, there is going to be no end to it. To understand fear one has to know that sins happen, "gunaah" or wrong-doing has to be observed, simply with observance it vanishes.. Kothar keep hammering this point that mumeneen apna ghana gunaah che, apne gunaah na dariyan ma che, Please dont wash away your "gunaah", keep them inside you, so that the next time you dont commit gunaah. If you are free from it, then why fear?? When there is no fear, do you need a leader to tell you what is right and what is wrong?? because you (with your understanding) know it. Aren't you already reformed??

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#18

Unread post by ponga bhori » Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:09 am

....to cleanse the system, the follower has to be taught to get rid of fear, because.....

Dear Al-Zulfikar,
That is if the follower excepts a "teacher" and then "teachings".
Here we have a cult follower who is not even willing to listen to anything except the cult leader. And some of whom are "progressives" their teachers are saying "accept the Dai" the very cult leader.Attend his tamashas, do maatam....but do not pay money!!.....Back to square one, CULT follower.

As long as one keeps the Sanghat (company) of this cult, he will keep to the cult.A man is known by the company he keeps. So first step get out of the "club" memebrship of this cult.

So the 3 jewels: the Bhuddha (the perfect guide), the Dharma (the teachings), the Sangha (spiritual friends) all are required to help in improving our inner understanding through their great inspirations.

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#19

Unread post by ponga bhori » Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:28 am

Let me get back to the 3 jewels:

The PERFECT GUIDE : ALLAH
The Prophets
For Shias: the Immam/s

The TEACHINGS: The Holy Scriptures:
Torah,Bible,Koran.

The SPIRITUAL FRIENDS:
The Ulemaas,our fellow MUSLIMS

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#20

Unread post by ponga bhori » Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:59 am

The above two posts are for Like_minded.
Sorry Al-Zulfikar as always was On My Mind.

like_minded
Posts: 1260
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#21

Unread post by like_minded » Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:35 am

Perfect Guide: Allah..(Faith in Allah)

Teaching: If you really want to learn, just look around, everything around you teaches you something or the other... they are all like sign-posts, just look where it points!! You will be amazed!!

Spiritual friends: Understanding the first two jewels, (perfect guide and teaching) can one really have enimity in oneself?? No... only LOVE, which gives birth to friendship.

like_minded
Posts: 1260
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#22

Unread post by like_minded » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:54 am

That is if the follower excepts a "teacher" and then "teachings".

The first and foremost rule of reform is to come out of "following", This "following" has ruined us, isnt it? Follow this, follow that, and we get monotonous in our following and eventually become zombies. Religion has made us zombies for sure, because religion expects following. Ridiculous!! but its a fact.

Christians believe Jesus will soon appear... and so there is a following... for Jesus to appear, For Bohras, its the hidden Imam, and so, they submit to the Dai (his representative) and follow him blindly... For other muslims, there is qayamat (judgement day) and so, they stick to it and do all kind of nonsense on this planet, in order to reserve a seat in heaven and be in good books of Allah....

Where is this madness leading us?? Do we have a clue??

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#23

Unread post by ponga bhori » Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:12 pm

KARMA, all actions shall be rewarded.
Sooner or latter, when do not know.
So do good DEEDS, for good rewards.

Humsafar
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#24

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:47 pm

Al Zulfiqar,

As porus said, the belief in the imam is fundamental to the Bohra faith. It is not negotiable. True the clergy is using this belief to dupe the public, that does not mean we trash the belief itself. I think the solution to this dilemma is the education and awareness of bohras of their own religion and history. But, to complicate the dilemma, as long as they are caught up in the clergy's web of lies they won't know any better. This is a classic vicious circle, but it will break sooner or later.

As to why the reform movement does not take up the issue of the Imam, the answer is simple: It is not an issue. The reform movement has a very limited - yet challenging - scope of introducing reforms pertaining to financial accountability, jamaat democracy, end of raza, baraat, misaq etc. Reformists in Udaipur and elsewhere have shown the way. Unless the rest of the Bohras start behaving like buffalos little is going to change. Taking the Imam out of the equation will have no impact whatsoever, because for a people who have lost their humanity and soul a little doctrinal rearrangement will make no difference. The corrupt clergy will invent some other pretext to oppress them. There's no other solution but for the sheep to become buffalos.

Porus,

Your suggestion of taking the Dai out of the equation and directly communing with the Imam is quite original. This may eventually happen, who knows. But I don't think the reformists want to even consider that. Their agenda is to reform the system and cut down the clergy to size while retaining all the doctrinal paraphernalia. It looks like a losing proposition because the bohras are weak and coward. If reformists begin to tamper with doctrine they will have no legs to stand on. They are not interested in starting a separate sect, if that were the case they would have done it a long time ago.

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#25

Unread post by ponga bhori » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:05 pm

PORUS, PORUS,

Reformists in Udaipur and elsewhere have shown the way. Unless the rest of the Bohras start behaving like buffalos little is going to change.

So Udaipur Reformists have become behaving like buffalos. And you also want the whole of the Bhoris to go BUFFALO.

and
There's no other solution but for the sheep to become buffalos.

For a stupid theory to survive you want mankind to
evolute. Keep being a HUMAN BEING, make use of your MIND that Allah has given you to fight this oppression of the dia.

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#26

Unread post by ponga bhori » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:11 pm

Hey, I am laughing my mind out,
Why am I calling out to Porus.
It be HUNSAFAR HUMSAFAR,

Oh God, this is getting funnier than I can handle.

Humsafar
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#27

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:54 pm

ponga bohri,

Hope you're not smoking pot. Either you don't understand metaphors or you haven't watched the YouTube video anajmi provided a link for.

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#28

Unread post by ponga bhori » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:00 pm

This is better than POT.
But why not take my talk as also in metas.
Yes, I had the op to watch that much before by a frwd and was on CNN too.

Give me more of this metas of yours.
Boy it is said: Bhori sae shanoo tae diwanoo,
I am going crazy.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#29

Unread post by porus » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:07 pm

Humsafar,

At one time, I was in touch with the 'Luqmani' group in England. They operated as an independent sect while retaining all religious and cultural aspects of the Bohra religion. Most agreed with Reformists.

While some of these harboured residual grievances against the Orthodox Jamaat, the majority were content to maintain separateness.

One way to go would be to encourage similar associations and poach members from the Orthodox Jamaat. If critical mass is reached, Kothar will be forced to take notice and begin to reform itself. They may even begin to re-attract those who have left, but have family or other pressures to rejoin.

But, if you have tasted freedom.......

Ministering to spiritual needs is paramount. Temporal administration is easy. If all occasions, including Muharram and Ramadan are observed, then the task is easier. Community has to be weaned away from the belief that God will not accept them unless they go through the Dai or his family. That is the biggest challenge.

ponga bhori
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 4:01 am

Re: a challenge to all bohra intellectuals....

#30

Unread post by ponga bhori » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:41 pm

Hamsafar,

I suggest that you understand the U-Tube clip.
The MEN in the episode where not being eaten up like the buffalo or pulled by the croc in the water.

MEN are smart, they use their mind, well off from being taken. They keep away, they do not go in to save the buffalo. KEEP AWAY from the DANGER, the DANGER of the Khotar. Why go into the jaws of the Kothar to save the sheep.