Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
S. Insaf
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#31

Unread post by S. Insaf » Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:35 pm

The Abbasid period is of a great significance in the history of Islam. Initially it challenged the oppressive regime of the Umayyeds which was hated by people especially by the people of non-Arab origin. The Abbasids came to power with the help of the people of Persia. The Persians had highly developed civilization and urge for higher learning. To suit this non-Arab genius Abbasids adopted more liberal policies in the matter of religion and the leading Persian intellectuals were given the most important administrative post in their regime. They organized vast scale translation of Greek and Indian works on philosophy, mathematics, astronomy medicines and other sciences. Thus the Greek ideas greatly influenced the Islamic thought in that period.
At the same time Ismaili theologies developed the rational theology in Islam. Basra became the center of rational and liberal theologies as it was port town and a great center of commerce. The people from different countries, races and religions used meet and remix in Basra. Abbasids had forged a common front for all Shias sects but after capturing power they started eliminating their rivals.
It was then the Ismailis in other to challenge their power organized an underground movement and assimilated the progressive thoughts and developed the most progressive theology in Islam that can be gauged from volumes of Ikhwan us Safa. Ismailis felt that the religion that does not resolve the tension between spiritual as well material aspects of human life is meaningless. As society and world is constantly progressing then the governing laws must also change to resolve the tension in the changed society, they thought.

The Quranic doctrine terminating the shariah of one prophet by the next prophet and giving new shariah for his society as the society has undergone considerable changes, was extended by Ismailis even for the period after the last Prophet Mohammad.
To understand this logic of Ismaili doctrine let us look at the society at the emergence of Islam and the society today after industrialization and advancement in technology.
1) Camel and horse riding used to take days and months. That has been now replaced by cars, airplanes, jets, which takes hour or minutes in reaching destination. The social and religious laws have to be changed accordingly.
2) Hand to hand cash transaction have changed in to hi tech banking system. The promises, reliance and dealing norms have to be changed accordingly.
3) Business has taken the shape of partnership, co-operatives, medium and big corporate – fresh business norms have to be set up accordingly.
4) Food consumption habits have undergone drastic change – buying ready food packets, mutton, chicken, eating in hotels, parties etc need more liberal laws. The ritual of slaughtering millions of animal in one day. Alcohol is prohibited, but there is very small percentage of it in today’s medicines.
5) Social and political relationship – There were no Hindus in Arabia then and therefore the Quran is silent about them. Hindus believe in God and worship Him in their own way – Are they Kafir or not? Are they Ahle-Kitab or not? Is marriage with them permissible or not as it is permissible with Christians and Jews? Is call for Namaz (Azaan) over mike advisable today? What Jihad is in today’s politics? The holy Prophet has said that “the best form of Jihad is telling the truth on the face of tyrants.” Then why the Islamic world today is exploited by the imperial forces and Muslim countries are joining hands with these imperial forces?
There are just a few stray examples.
I do not want debate on them please. What I want to understand is there are thousands of problems and questions today which need to be addressed; the Ismaili logic of terminating thousand year old sharia and devising a new shariah to address the challenges of society as per the existing conditions was a revolutionary logic or not? To me it was indeed a revolutionary logic.

S. Insaf
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#32

Unread post by S. Insaf » Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:38 pm

Before I post the Concluding 4th part I request you to please share with me the above passage:

East Africawalla
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#33

Unread post by East Africawalla » Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:46 pm

Mr Insaf,

I agree with you that it was a revolutionary logic.
The problem is getting people to go with it.

In a way I agree with you that we should go with the times .

S. Insaf
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#34

Unread post by S. Insaf » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:37 pm

Let me make it clear that as per my understanding the Ismailis were ardent followers Islamic teachings and the Quranic injunctions and therefore their rational and liberal theologies were also strictly based on Islamic principles.

IMMUSLIM
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#35

Unread post by IMMUSLIM » Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:24 pm

Brother Insaf

Very interesting posts and very informative also. Islam is a dynamic religion so a true Islamic society should be able to evolve with time. We have to keep one thing in mind no matter where the world is today and wherever it will be in future, an individual is responsible for his deeds at the end of the day. There seems to be no harm in adopting modern norms but at the same time we have to make sure that we do not compromise basic tenets of Islam. Islamic principles if applied to the society can work for the benefit of everyone in the society, though there is no check like IRS but the more we deviate the more we loose in this world (not to mention the spiritual aspect). Here is why
2) Hand to hand cash transaction have changed in to hi tech banking system. The promises, reliance and dealing norms have to be changed accordingly.
No harm in using today’s hi tech banking system. Borrowing from bank sometimes becomes necessity in business or personal life like buying home. I came across a document from a professor from Islamic University Islamabad arguing that simple banking interest is not haram as Islam forbids riba (multiplication of interest). Interest is considered as a return on capital and todays banking system would stop functioning if the investors would not receive the return on capital. But there is a fine line between an interest and riba, I think it becomes riba when banks or lending institutions start charging exorbitant rate of interest. If the consumer starts using the credit cards for luxuries then credit becomes curse. Its for an individual to draw the line or if its an Islamic country interest rate can be regulated.
Stock market crash of SE Asia in late 90’s, next US stocks went up and then down, then real estate market went up and now its on downward trend, now commodities like oil, food, steel is up. Do you see a pattern here, wealthy few knows where to invest first this causes the market to rise, followed by individual like me who joins the band trying to make some money and eventually losses it. Result inequality in the society leading to more crimes. Islam forbids hoarding, it is modern hoarding when you buy commodity today causing the market to go up and then sell it.
3) Business has taken the shape of partnership, co-operatives, medium and big corporate – fresh business norms have to be set up accordingly.
Capitalism aims at providing maximum benefit to the capital whereas Islam aims at providing maximum benefit to the individuals. No harm forming big or small corporation or co-operatives. But when Islamic values are compromised when corporation forms cartels to work for capital then they start sucking blood from consumers resulting in inequality in distribution of wealth. Example today oil companies declaring billions of dollars in quarterly profit whereas consumers are barely making it.
Check Bill Gates new idea of innovative capitalism, directly or indirectly they are trying to follow the Islamic ideals. The modern lifestyle is based on consumerism, this creates turmoil in our lives, blood pressure, and depressions are few examples.
Check again Warren Buffet, worlds richest man. Owns airline flies economy class, drives around in his own car, lives in a moderate 6000 sq feet house since 1958, has already spent billions of dollars in charity compare him with the leaders in the Islamic world, knowing or unknowing who lives according to Islamic principles.
4) Food consumption habits have undergone drastic change – buying ready food packets, mutton, chicken, eating in hotels, parties etc need more liberal laws. The ritual of slaughtering millions of animal in one day. Alcohol is prohibited, but there is very small percentage of it in today’s medicines.
My opinion would be no harm but one should know where to draw the line.
5) Social and political relationship – There were no Hindus in Arabia then and therefore the Quran is silent about them. Hindus believe in God and worship Him in their own way
No comments.
Then why the Islamic world today is exploited by the imperial forces and Muslim countries are joining hands with these imperial forces?
Because they are also the part of this imperial force. Today they are imperials but yesterday we were imperials example Muslims invasion of India.

There is nothing wrong with modernization but deviating from basic Islamic tenets results in creating turmoil in our lives and in the society also. Today alternate lifestyle is not norm atleast in our culture but its becoming a norm in other cultures where we live also. What choices our coming generations will have when they will discuss about alternate lifestyle.

S. Insaf
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#36

Unread post by S. Insaf » Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:10 am

Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith - Part – 4

Misaq is not practiced by any other sect of Islam except Dawoodi Bohras who are descendants of Ismailis. As we have seen for Ismailis it was political necessity of a close-knit underground movement in then hostile condition.
Today the movement is no longer underground; the earlier mission of Dai, Mazoon and Mukasir to convert the people of other faiths to Ismailism no longer exists.
The first religious part of the Misaq states that “Allah took the covenant from Adam and it continued…….” Nothing wrong in giving the oath to Allah. But today’s Misaq altered by Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb is oppressive as it binds the followers to submit to a total surrender Not to God but personally to Dai. Today’s Misaq is the most effective sanction for all kind of inhuman behavior which has changed the character of this decent, peace-loving and caring community. After the establishment of British rule in India and then the advent of Independence there remain no fear of persecution of Dawoodi Bohras and hence this oath of loyalty to central authority is no more essential.

Therefore the enforcing of the rigid conditions of second part of the Misaq of political significance and that too for Dai must be strongly opposed.

Similarly the retaining the same centralized secretive structure of Dawat must be strongly opposed.

The fact is that till 50th Dai only the first part of the Misaq which has religious significance was taken by the Bohra priests and that too for Imam, merely as religious custom. The Misaq had only ceremonial value till then.
But as admitted by our 51st Dai, late Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb in Bombay High Court he manipulated the text and added several passages in order to elevate Dai’s status to that of Imam and enforce his unquestionable authority over the followers of the faith.
Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb introduced very harsh conditions in the text of Misaq making it an instrument of punishment. He did this deviation inspite of clear warning in “Tuhfat-ul-Qulub” by Sayedna Hatim that: The Dai is prohibited to ascribe a single word of the Misaq towards himself.” Remember Sayedna Hatim was not a Dai during Imam’s time. He was our third Dai after the Imam Tayeb went in seclusion and the Fatimid empire had fallen down. (The text of present Misaq is there on this board.)

As Sayedna Taher Saifuddin moved unabashedly to build his financial empire he destroyed the spirit and norms of Ismailism giving it an authoritarian character which caused and still causing many problems in the peace-loving community. There is no priesthood in Islam as religious functions can be performed by any ordinary Muslim. The priesthood is absent in all other Islamic sect. The same was the case in Dawoodi Bohra community till 50th Dai. The local Mullas and Amils were appointed and paid by the independent Jamats and they used to perform all the religious functions of the community including Moharram vaiz without interference of Dai. But our 51st Dai used this centralized structure to his advantage making it more and more authoritarian by introducing one more rigid condition that of his Raza , and ultimately introducing a deadly weapon of “Jamat kharij” and its latest version “Baraat”. Thus the Ismaili mission which played a very important role by attempting a creative intellectual synthesis of philosophy and the teachings of Islam which attracts the best intellectuals even today has now been reduced to a Cult.

His son and our present Dai Sayedna Burhanuddin has further taken the community away from Islam by declaring himself as owner of mosques and sole-trustee of the community’s property. Under his ownerships Bohra mosques have become a playground for organizing birthday functions, cutting cakes, serving jamans, arranging vadhavnis, kadambosi, najwa and salam function, mass marriages, meetings of politicians, putting cinema screen and rely apparatus and video shooting, fund collection and lottery draws. Now even musalla spaces are priced and reserved thus killing the very spirit of namaz. As recent incidents indicate this commercialization of religion has turned the Bohra mosques into the battle fields.

Our Dai has given up the principle of accountability which is so central in Islam and which was followed by the holy Prophet and his Ahle-bait most vigorously.

In conclusion I feel that now having huge stakes the Dai and his family and also his corrupt administration will not like to mend their ways as they care two hoots for Islam and Ismailism. They have no concern for the suffering humanity. A systematic organized opposition by the mumineen is the only way out. The victims alone are the savior.

Thai
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#37

Unread post by Thai » Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:12 am

I had not checked the forum for a while...

Thankyou for the interesting information. There are many ways to look at, and understand history. :)

I was wondering---where did the idea of the infallibility of Prophet Muhammed develop from--anyone...??

Also, there have been recent re-evaluation of the term Sharia (the way) as informed in the Quran (which is usually very broad and general)and fiq (jurisprudence) or Law developed later. Today, the word sharia includes "law/jurisprudence" but apparently, it did not always. Some scholars feel that all Fiq is man's understanding and interpretation of the very broad and general rules of morality and conduct (sharia) of the Quran. Therefore all man-made rules can be changed to fit the circumstances. Iran has made some interesting rulings concerning today's technology such as stem cell research...etc

Thai
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#38

Unread post by Thai » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:55 am

I was checking the dictionary for the meaning of "infallibility" (---exempt from error) and came accross the term as used by the Roman Catholic Church. Apparently the Pope is infallible--that is, all of his statements concerning ritual/Dogma and morality are infallible because these statements are inspired by God (or some such concept).

Maybe christianity had some influence in the development of some of our doctrines?

I could be wrong, but it was my understanding that some of the wives of the Imams were former christians? ---a particulalry influential one was the wife of Imam Muizz----(not sure---will have to check my notes)

Thai
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#39

Unread post by Thai » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:05 am

IMMUSLIM

Your comments on economics was interesting. Do you think today's copyright/patent battles are a problem? for example, the big western pharmaceuticals patent drugs and monopolize the market keeping these drugs away from people who cannot afford them---those companies that produce cheaper versions are sued for patent infringement.
These things are also happening in GM foods/seeds and other areas. ----maybe one day, even air and water will be patented? :D

feelgud
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#40

Unread post by feelgud » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:00 am


I was wondering---where did the idea of the infallibility of Prophet Muhammed develop from--anyone...??
48:1 VERILY, [O Muhammad,] We have laid open before thee a manifest victory, [1]

إِنَّا فَتَحْنَا لَكَ فَتْحًا مُّبِينًا (48:1)
48:2 so that God might show His forgiveness of all thy faults, past as well as future, [2] and [thus] bestow upon thee the full measure of His blessings, and guide thee on a straight way, [3]

لِيَغْفِرَ لَكَ اللَّهُ مَا تَقَدَّمَ مِن ذَنبِكَ وَمَا تَأَخَّرَ وَيُتِمَّ نِعْمَتَهُ عَلَيْكَ وَيَهْدِيَكَ صِرَاطًا مُّسْتَقِيمًا (48:2)
48:3 and [show] that God will succour thee with [His] mighty succour.

وَيَنصُرَكَ اللَّهُ نَصْرًا عَزِيزًا (48:3)

Thai
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#41

Unread post by Thai » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:36 pm

feelgud

Thankyou for the reply ---do you (or anyone) know how the concept of the prophet's infallibility developed from this verse?

by the way, ---from my translation it says

1. Surely we have granted you a manifest victory
2 That Allah may forgive you your faults of the past and those to follow: Fulfill his favor to you and guide you on the straight way

(The surah may be referring to the treaty of Hudaibiya) In any case, the fact that Allah is willing to FORGIVE faults/mistakes of Prophet Muhammed ---both those already committed and those he will commit in the future ---proves the Prophets fallibility and human-ness does it not?

feelgud
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#42

Unread post by feelgud » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:19 am

thai,
Asad has beautifully summed up this thought in his comment on this verse:
"so that God might forgive thee all that is past of thy sins and all that is yet to come" - thus indicating elliptically that freedom from faults is an exclusive prerogative of God, and that every human being, however exalted, is bound to err on occasion .(Quran Ref: 48:2 )

Thai
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#43

Unread post by Thai » Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:02 am

feelgud

Thankyou for your reply.

"that freedom from faults is an exclusive prerogative of God,..." I might venture to say that perfection and infallibility are exclusive to God as well unless he/it decides otherwise.

Some might say that because the Quran is infallible, that the person given the Quran to recite (revelation) is also infallible. However, such an equation does not need to be true since a fallible person could also be given/revealed an infallible Quran/holy book --God willing?

It is not my intention to upset anyone---I am simply asking questions because that is the way to find answers. I am also not approaching this with a mind already made-up. I am simply being open to discussion and information.

S. Insaf
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#44

Unread post by S. Insaf » Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:49 pm

As Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer has very well argued in his well-researched article “Doctrine of infallibility in Islamili tradition” the perception of the infallibility and has come to the conclusion that even to the Prophet the infallibility is only in religious sphere and he can make mistake in worldly matters. I quote below some extracts from his article:-

There is great deal of misconception about the doctrine of 'ismah (infallibility) and its precise meaning among the Isma'ilis, in general, and among the Dawoodi Bohras, in particular. The doctrine of 'ismah i.e. infallibility applies only to the Prophet in Sunni Islam and to the Prophet, his legatee (wasi) and imams in Shi'ah Islam……………………….

Again the question arises what is exact implication of the doctrine of infallibility. Does it mean infallibility in both religious and secular matters or only in religious matters? The sources are not very clear on this. It has not been specifically mentioned in the Shi'ah sources whether the doctrine of 'ismah applies to only religious or also to secular matters. It has been left vague. ……………………….

We find a hadith that once the Prophet (PBUH) advised some people in Madina to plant the date palm trees in a particular way. But when they planted in that fashion the yield of date fruit reduced. They complained to the Prophet that they followed his advice but the yield was reduced. The Prophet thereupon said that (antum a'alamuna bi umuri dunyakum) you know better in the worldly matters and you plant in a way which is more profitable…………..

………….. Holy Quran requires the Prophet to consult his companions in important matters (wa shawirhum fi'al-amr, 3:159).
Here the question arises if the Prophet is infallible in all matters including the worldly matters also why Allah requires him to consult his companions in important matters like strategies of war or techniques of war etc. And we have a number of occasions on which the Prophet consulted his companions and accepted their counsel. Such consultation becomes superfluous if the doctrine of 'ismah is applied to all spheres of action.

…………….Can imam be infallible in worldly matters also? If the question is yes, will his pronouncements in all worldly matters be binding on his followers? And if it is so can an imam be such an expert in all spheres that he will commit no error say in the fields of solar physics, astro-physics, or particle physics; or in the fields of industrial chemistry or agro-industry? Or various diseases like cancer or AIDS? Obviously it will be difficult to maintain such a position as a viable one. And no one expects ones Imam to be such an expert. He mainly looks towards him as a source of inspiration and guidance in religious and spiritual matters…….

This leads us to the conclusion that the doctrine of 'ismah is to be understood properly……………

…………. Now the head of the Dawoodi Bohra sect Saiyyidna Muhammad Burhanuddin and his father Saiyyidna Tahir Saifuddin began to claim that they are infallible and that they can never go wrong. This is of course an innovation (bid'ah) that a da'i could be infallible. According to the Shi'ah-Isma'ili sources (or the authentic sources of the Fatimi Da'wah) only an Imam can be ma'sum, not any one below the rank of Imam can claim 'ismah (infallibility) for himself, not even hujjah who is far above the rank of a da'i.
But the Dawoodi Bohra religious establishment has now popularized this and the da'i is being projected as ma'sum. They have not even properly thought of implications of such a claim…………….

Thai
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#45

Unread post by Thai » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:13 am

That was an interesting article---I appreciate your quoting it.

"limited infallibility"....This is an interesting concept. The argument seems reasonable on the surface. Can a human being have unlimited or limited infallibility? The Quran says that Prophet Isa was just as much a human as Prophet Adam and yet Prophet Isa was able to perform miracles such as make the dead come alive, by God's help. Therefore, if God so chooses, any human being can attain some degree of "infallibility"

However, such a concept brings up additional questions such as---is any degree of infallibility
neccessary to attain religious/spiritual enlightenment (nafs mutmainna)? and how does one
differentiate between religious and worldly affairs in order to express/define the concept of "limited infallibility in the religious sphere".

The Quran speaks of all aspects of life such as war, economics,marital relationships, charity as well as aspects of knowledge such as the creation of the world, the orbit of planets, the "other" beings (jinn) etc. In Islam---Islam (submission to God's will) permeates all aspects of life. ---so then, in what context do we define "limited infallibility in religion" ---without limiting religion/Islam itself?

Claims of limited infallibility by or for the Popes, Imams, and Prophets are certainly plausible
doctrines. Nevertheless, in the grand scheme of things, for the individual believer/muslim it has
limited significance in their religious/spiritual journey for in the end, they are each solely responsible for the choices they make in life, not the Prophets or Imams.

We must all bear our own burdens.

Judaism (progressive) and some protestant versions of christianity have the concept of attaining wisdom through the Holy Spirit(christianity), Ruach Hakodesh (Judaism)--- which translates to ruh-al-qudus in arabic. That wisdom attained through such means by rabbi's or priests is divine wisdom.

S. Insaf
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#46

Unread post by S. Insaf » Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:28 pm

Here is the English Translation of the second part of the original Misaq Nama.
This part was administered after the faithful taking the first part of covenant affirmed his support to the movement. Now the Voluntarism got replaced by Compulsion. As the second part assumed the political character. The faithful was now required to maintain all religious as well as political secrets of the mission. Thus the second part began with:-

In the name of God, the Compassionate, the merciful
You took upon yourselves as a duty and made firm upon your necks the covenant of God which is asked for and confirmed; and His bond which is stout and tight, with your obedience and pleasure, owing to (your) inclination; and not for the sake of fear. You shall not dissemble, use tricks and deceive it. But it should be with true intents, clear purposes, good mind, pure conscience, and sincere secrets. You should refrain from dissembling and treacherous attack (going against what your tongues utter) at the hearing of what you covenant me for the servant of God, his favourite, the lmam, peace be on him, his sincere forefathers and his respected sons who are expected (to come one after another) till the day of Deen, but your words should be according to what is hidden in your hearts and what is coiled in your limbs. You bear witness that there is no God except Allah. He is alone; there is no partner for Him. He is the creator of the skies and the earth and what is between them, and lie within them. And verily Mohammed is His servant and prophet and verily Ali, the son of Abi Talib, is his successor-heir to his position, owner of His hidden knowledge, and the master of the male and female believers after him (prophet). Then from their descendants are Imams who are chosen by God one after another. There can be no time without Imam. Say NAAM.

And every body from his descendants or he who will come next whom he will appoint by Nas, or whom he will point out, is Imam whose obedience is compulsory upon the people of his time. Say NAAM.

And the paradise is true, and the fire (hell) is true, and the moment that will come is true, and God will raise all who are in the graves. Say NAAM

You will be regular in time in prayers, give Zakat (tax) properly, keep fasts in the month of Raman, in which God has sent the Quran, go to the Baitullah-il-Haram if any one of you can do that, visit the tomb of the grand father of the Imam of your time Mohammed, Peace be on him and his descendants, fight in the cause of God, fulfilling the duty of Jihad (religious war) and will sincerely obey the Imam. Say NAAM.

And you will obey every one whom Imam will order to obey and you will hear him, will not disobey him, will not deceive him by false pretence, will not be treacherous, will make him true and not false, will help him and not leave him, will act uprightly and not turn from him, will not change what he will bring to you, will not find faults in him whom Imam will be pleased to choose as a messenger, and will carry out what will be ordered by your Imam . Say NAAM.

And you will love him whom he (Imam) loves and fight with him whom he fights with, and with him who breaks the covenant, whether he be a principal or a common man, a relative or a distant. Say NAAM.

You will have no connection with Imam’s enemy by letter, message, hint, signal, sign, inclination or trick i.e. with one of the reasons and causes. Say NAAM.

You will fight sincerely in Imam’s Jihad with your wealth and lives when you will be called by Imam for that and will not become sluggish and you will not disclose to any one among you separating from what you gave oaths to the Imam, but you will put it before Imam or one to whom the knowledge will be parted from you. Say NAAM.

You will not refrain from helping the Imam of your time from following him, from his favours, accepting him as Imam, sincerely in his service and his sincere advice. You shall not be misled from what you covenanted by one gone astray and shall not be turned by a changer notwithstanding you spend at the time of your grand covenant and Missaq by your words NAAM, "We heard and we agree" which is equal to an oath. God knows your conscience and your secrets in your believing, adopting and fulfilling it. You will not be deceitful and cheating and playing tricks until you meet God on the day of meeting as those who have fulfilled their covenant and preserved their Imam. Say NAAM.

You will conceal what you heard and what you will hear by reading Quran and performing religious rites; you will not disclose what is to be hidden, protecting the religion of God and preserving the laws of the prophet of God, peace be on him, and his descendants. You will not oppose anything with any reason concealing it until you meet God on the day of meeting, while you have concealed what you have been ordered to conceal, so that he may be pleased with you. Nothing false should keep you away from the right because God will not accept from you but with the fulfillment of Ahad (covenant). Say NAAM.

You will be pleased with what will be ordered among you, exalting, degrading, gift, forbidden, refusal, reward, punishment, pleasure and displeasure. Say NAAM.

lf any one of you will separate from what I have made firm upon his soul secretly or openly or deceiving in any manner, and in every interpretation, then he is cut off from God, the Creator of the skies and the earth who ordained him (limbs) and blessed him with good health. And he is cut on from Taurat (Pentateuch); the Gospel; Psalms of David; Quran, the great, and the perfect words, truly and justly. Say NAAM.

All the properties, wealth, movable and immovable properties, capital, jewels, goods, cattle, animals for load, and riding, or slaves or whatever he has earned from the world, these all are alms for the poor Muslims, nothing of which can be regained by any contrivance. Say NAAM.

Whatever he will earn in his remaining life is forbidden to him but by the fulfillment of the covenant which has been taken from him. Say NAAM.

And every slave male or female who is in his possession is free in the cause of God. He has no right for them. Say NAAM.

And all his present wives or those whom he shall marry in future then they are as divorced thrice like the divorce of "Al batah," one kind of divorce (by this divorce the wife is utterly prohibited to the husband and he can never re-marry her) and that of Farz and Sunnat which can be performed at the time of menses. It is the divorce which cannot be regained. Say NAAM.
And he is to go to the old house of God at Mecca to perform thirty pilgrimages on bare foot, God will not acknowledge even that but with the fulfillment (of the covenant). Say NAAM.

Upon him lies God‘s curse with which God curses the devil. Heaven is forbidden to him and the Fire will burn him. And he will see God on the day of meeting while he is unbeliever. He denies (his existence); and he is separate from the power of God, taking shelter under the power of his conscience. God’s curse and wrath upon him and his situation (in the Hereafter) will become worst. Say NAAM.

He inclines away from the worship of God, who is merciful and compassionate; to the worship of idols and he holds what the misled and disobedient people keep hold of. God will refuse His mercy to him on the day when he will require it. He will not assist him and will quicken his abjectness and his departure towards the fire of hell in which God has no mercy. Say NAAM.

There is no outlet to separate from the obedience of which I have taken oath upon you, and God is sufficient for the evidence. Say NAAM.

You heard my words and are pleased with my conditions, have taken upon your necks the firm covenant of God and His stout and tight bond for Imam, and his fathers and sons expected to continue up to the Day of Deen, you agree to fulfill the covenant ? Say NAAM.

Be cheerful with your covenant with which you swore fealty, while God says, "Verily, those who swore fealty to you do but swear fealty to God, the hand of God is over his hands; then he who perjures himself does not perjure against himself and he fulfills what he has covenanted God, He will give him a great reward." Through his mercy and benevolence, may God make it permanent and not temporary. May God help you the swearers of fealty and ourselves to fulfill the covenant; and may he make us firm to obey him, His prophets and His favourites and through His mercy may He make us persevering and make our ends better.
All praises are due to God, the one, the omnipotent, peace be on Mohammed, the chosen, on Ali, his successor, the assistant, and on his family the generous, the noble, and the pure. God is sufficient for us. He is good support, good Master and good Assistant. There is no power and strength but with God. A M E N A M E N

zak
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#47

Unread post by zak » Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:01 pm

a very informative discussion

profastian
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#48

Unread post by profastian » Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:11 am

omabharti wrote:Insaf Bhai
I am confused, current Syedna connects his ancestary to Yemeni Dai ?
Who told you that?

zak
Posts: 60
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#49

Unread post by zak » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:56 pm

profastian wrote:
omabharti wrote:Insaf Bhai
I am confused, current Syedna connects his ancestary to Yemeni Dai ?
Who told you that?
Are Dais appointed in own family ? Is selection done by Imam in hding or the current Dai ?

profastian
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am

Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#50

Unread post by profastian » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:41 am

zak wrote:
profastian wrote: Who told you that?
Are Dais appointed in own family ? Is selection done by Imam in hding or the current Dai ?
No it is not necessary. The selection is done by the DAI (through the Ilham of Imam-uz-Zaman)

S. Insaf
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#51

Unread post by S. Insaf » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:42 am

Dear zak,
Are Dais appointed in own family? Is selection done by Imam in hiding or the current Dai?
According to Dawoodi Bohra Dawat-Hadiya principles, any ordinary Bohra who is the most learned and is known for his simplicity, piety and just conduct can be chosen and raised to the office of Dai, not by inheritance or by election but by Nass.
There was a condition that the selection of such a person should be inspired by Imam and Nass on him should be declared publicly by the Dai. (Nass-e-Jali)

Hindu Raja Sidhraj Jaisingh Bharmal, who was converted to the faith in 486 Hijri. Nine persons from his dynasty were raised to the post of Dai, the first being 34th Dai Syedna Ismailji Badruddin and last was 46th Dai Syedna Mohammad Badruddin who died a mysterious death leading to the controversy of Nass on 47th Dai, the grandfather of Syedna Taher Saifuddin. That was the beginning of corruption in the Dawat system. Some credit must be given to 48th, 49th and 50th Dai that they tried to curbed as much as they could do but they were financially not powerful and were unable to control the vested interests in the system.

Now because of two world wars and industrialization, prosperity has come in the Bohra Community too and Syedna Taher Saifuddin managing a lion’s share in the community’s prosperity has accumulated huge concentration of wealth and power at the center, and Imam's existence being ambiguous, the system of appointing outsiders to the post of Mazoon, Mukasir and Dai has been unceremoniously abandoned and these posts have been confined to just one family without much regard for their literary and ecclesiastical qualifications.

Dawat-e-Hadiya is no more divine and spiritual now. It is a ruthless commercial organization where not principles or ethics but the boss is the final word.

incredible
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#52

Unread post by incredible » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:51 am

S. Insaf wrote:Dear zak,
Are Dais appointed in own family? Is selection done by Imam in hiding or the current Dai?
According to Dawoodi Bohra Dawat-Hadiya principles, any ordinary Bohra who is the most learned and is known for his simplicity, piety and just conduct can be chosen and raised to the office of Dai, not by inheritance or by election but by Nass.
There was a condition that the selection of such a person should be inspired by Imam and Nass on him should be declared publicly by the Dai. (Nass-e-Jali)

Hindu Raja Sidhraj Jaisingh Bharmal, who was converted to the faith in 486 Hijri. Nine persons from his dynasty were raised to the post of Dai, the first being 34th Dai Syedna Ismailji Badruddin and last was 46th Dai Syedna Mohammad Badruddin who died a mysterious death leading to the controversy of Nass on 47th Dai, the grandfather of Syedna Taher Saifuddin. That was the beginning of corruption in the Dawat system. Some credit must be given to 48th, 49th and 50th Dai that they tried to curbed as much as they could do but they were financially not powerful and were unable to control the vested interests in the system.

Now because of two world wars and industrialization, prosperity has come in the Bohra Community too and Syedna Taher Saifuddin managing a lion’s share in the community’s prosperity has accumulated huge concentration of wealth and power at the center, and Imam's existence being ambiguous, the system of appointing outsiders to the post of Mazoon, Mukasir and Dai has been unceremoniously abandoned and these posts have been confined to just one family without much regard for their literary and ecclesiastical qualifications.

Dawat-e-Hadiya is no more divine and spiritual now. It is a ruthless commercial organization where not principles or ethics but the boss is the final word.
why grandfather of syedna taher saifuddin didnt passed dai position to his father?what excuse do you have for it?

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#53

Unread post by aqs » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:15 am

S. Insaf wrote:Dear zak,
Are Dais appointed in own family? Is selection done by Imam in hiding or the current Dai?
According to Dawoodi Bohra Dawat-Hadiya principles, any ordinary Bohra who is the most learned and is known for his simplicity, piety and just conduct can be chosen and raised to the office of Dai, not by inheritance or by election but by Nass.
There was a condition that the selection of such a person should be inspired by Imam and Nass on him should be declared publicly by the Dai. (Nass-e-Jali)
Insaaf Saheb,

Its was never a criteria to select Dai, the only criteria was and is the Ilhaam of Imam(as)
Hindu Raja Sidhraj Jaisingh Bharmal, who was converted to the faith in 486 Hijri. Nine persons from his dynasty were raised to the post of Dai, the first being 34th Dai Syedna Ismailji Badruddin and last was 46th Dai Syedna Mohammad Badruddin who died a mysterious death leading to the controversy of Nass on 47th Dai, the grandfather of Syedna Taher Saifuddin. That was the beginning of corruption in the Dawat system. Some credit must be given to 48th, 49th and 50th Dai that they tried to curbed as much as they could do but they were financially not powerful and were unable to control the vested interests in the system.
People have been harping about Hindu lineage of Dai's, In Islam when a person leaves his deen and accepts Islam all his past sins are erased and a new identity of a Muslim is created so why so much emphasis on around 5 generation back conversion of Moulai Raj's ancestor, Moulai Raj got Dai in his nasl due to his hard work for deen as Allah's reward like in Ale walid's case
Now because of two world wars and industrialization, prosperity has come in the Bohra Community too and Syedna Taher Saifuddin managing a lion’s share in the community’s prosperity has accumulated huge concentration of wealth and power at the center, and Imam's existence being ambiguous, the system of appointing outsiders to the post of Mazoon, Mukasir and Dai has been unceremoniously abandoned and these posts have been confined to just one family without much regard for their literary and ecclesiastical qualifications.
In the past if Dai's appointed thier Son or brothers as Dai or Mazoon or Mukasir then its accepted but when the same is done by present Syedna(tus) you find nepotism in this, now how fair is this argument. If you need i can post the whole shajarah of all the dais and it will be amply clear to you and others that it has been a accepted practice in Dawat.
Dawat-e-Hadiya is no more divine and spiritual now. It is a ruthless commercial organization where not principles or ethics but the boss is the final word.
the whole concept of Islam is run on Boss is the final word, starting from the Prophet(saw), Imams(as) to the Dai

SBM
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#54

Unread post by SBM » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:27 am

Aqs
the whole concept of Islam is run on Boss is the final word, starting from the Prophet(saw), Imams(as) to the Dai
Br. Aqs
In that case the Boss should be Allah and not the prophet or anyone else. Remember La Illah haa Ill lah

aqs
Posts: 848
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#55

Unread post by aqs » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:44 am

omabharti wrote:
Aqs
the whole concept of Islam is run on Boss is the final word, starting from the Prophet(saw), Imams(as) to the Dai
Br. Aqs
In that case the Boss should be Allah and not the prophet or anyone else. Remember La Illah haa Ill lah
Br. Oma,

Oh sure i remember the Shahadah but its also incomplete without Muhamad ar Rasul Lalllah, and if you believe in Shia faith then Aliun wali ullah. So you see where you start and where you have lead to, its Moula Ali and his progeny

SBM
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#56

Unread post by SBM » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:49 pm

^
But ultimetly the BOSS is Allah. I did not complete the Kalema since every one should know the complete Kalema.

aqs
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Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#57

Unread post by aqs » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:44 pm

omabharti wrote:^
But ultimetly the BOSS is Allah. I did not complete the Kalema since every one should know the complete Kalema.
you missed the point
So you see where you start and where you have lead to, its Moula Ali and his progeny

zak
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:46 pm

Re: Understanding Dawoodi Bohra Faith

#58

Unread post by zak » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:48 pm

aqs wrote:
omabharti wrote:^
But ultimetly the BOSS is Allah. I did not complete the Kalema since every one should know the complete Kalema.
you missed the point
So you see where you start and where you have lead to, its Moula Ali and his progeny
......


...in islam , allah is creator , mohamed is rasool ... and for shias Ali is Imam ...

now where does this humanly appointed Dai fit in ?
is he spiritual, divinely appointed?
what are his powers ?

surah nisa 4 59 is clear about who to obey ?

is obeying a human appointed Dai , an fallible person like yourself ..not shirk ?

if not why not .. explain please .