A golden opportunity lost – Part One

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S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#1

Unread post by S. Insaf » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:53 pm

Legend has it that when Prsis landed on the shores of Gujarat from Persia 1000 years ago, the ruler showed them that there is no room for them by sending them a jug full of milk. The Parsis responded by adding sugar to milk, thus conveying that they would assimilate without upsetting the status quo. Ever since Parsi community has remained in India like sugar in milk, adding sweetness without disturbing, disrupting or dominating. Because of their good example, the Ismailis like Bohras from Yemen and Khojas from Khorasan were also allowed to settle in Gujarat. Following the Parsi example, the Bohras and Khojas also adopted Indian culture, dress codes, language and traditions.
It is unfortunate that in the recent time the Bohra clergy have adopted Talebali culture of fundamentalism, obscurantism, and practices, which embitter the milk instead of sweetening it.
Again in case of Parsi their community remained organized where their religion remained disorganized. The achievements of Parsis in India are amazing. The first daily newspaper, the first joint stock company, the first organized ship-builders, the first luxury hotel, the first steel mill, the first airmail service, the first airline. Tata, Godrej and Wadia in industry, Jamshedji, N. Madan, Ardesh Irani, Sohrab Mody, Nadiadwala in Cinema, Dr. Homi Bhabha and Dr. Sethna in atomic energy, field Marshal Maneckshaw and Admiral Curshetjee in defence, Adi Marzaban in theater, Jeejeebhoy and Camas in medicine and philanthropy and Petit, Jeejeebhoy and Sehtnas in education, are among the first names which come to mind in other fields. Dadabhoy Naoroji, K.F. Nariman, M.R. Masani, Firoz Gandhi and Pillo Modi in politics, Nani Palkhiwala, Karl Khandalwala and Soli Sorabji as leading jurists, Bhakhtawar Lentin and Sam Bharucha as leading Judges. The list can go on and on.
The Bohras are more than 10 million whereas Parsi population is just 80,000.
Not content with merely catering to their own community, the Parsis as pressmen have always reached out to other communities as well as country at large. Where Bohra religious establishment has muzzled all Bohra-owned publications through threat of social boycott and commercial blackmail, the Parsi-owned Bombay Samachar has been carrying on “Vohra Vertamanâ€

S. Insaf
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Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#2

Unread post by S. Insaf » Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:00 pm

Addition to part one:
As I have said, In case of Parsi their community remained organized where as their religion remained disorganized.
In parsis there no priesthood controlling the community with tight grip. For their religious rites there are priest. But it is not their profession. I was working with Godrej a Parsi-owned company for 32 years. These Parsi priests were working under me as machine operators, clerks etc and used to perform their duty as priest after factory hours. In Parsi community the community affairs are managed by Parsi Panchayats.
They look after building residencial colonies, dispensaries, scholarships, orphonages, education and employements etc for the community (Organised community). As for their religion, Parsis can be found at Hindu temples, Muslims dargah etc. (disorganised religion).
In contrast, more about Dawoodi Bohras in Part Two.

mature
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#3

Unread post by mature » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:31 am

why dont you become a parsi if things are so good there i am sure they will welcome you with open arms to organise their religion

mature
Posts: 129
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Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#4

Unread post by mature » Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:12 am

when you bacome a parsi please also tell us the secret of their success in bussiness and also the secret of their failure in religion so that us bohras can learn from the mistakes they made

HUSAIN_HQ
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#5

Unread post by HUSAIN_HQ » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:17 am

dear mr m.

f.y.i.

</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">it is not possible to became parsi or better to say zorastrian, parsis are always born parsi. they do not accept outsider even as spouses to be parsi, and even child thereof and due to that they are now in very small numbers.</font></li>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

S. Insaf
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Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#6

Unread post by S. Insaf » Tue Dec 13, 2005 5:55 pm

Dear brother Mature, Please be matured enough and do not get exited. Let me find time and put forth my concluding part. Enen Quran has said that there is no compulsion in religion. But when any religion turns into an establishment with tons weath in its possession its grips follows on its followers so that no one dare to question its misdoings.

MOHD HUSSAIN
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Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#7

Unread post by MOHD HUSSAIN » Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:24 am

saifbhai- Very interesting topic of comparison-In fact parsis and bohras are fondly referred as MASI MASINA (meaning maternal cousins) because our similar names and way of speaking Gujarati--
You have population of Bohras as 10 million but that is grossly exagerated as it is close to 1 million-Wow Kothar will wish it was 10 million!!!Both present and past Syednas have taken community backward in all aspects and at this rate we will be at bottom list on all the progress lists.Can you please write your E-mail address for me-Thanks--

mature
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Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#8

Unread post by mature » Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:46 am

mh please tell us how has the bohra community gone backwards in present years with specific examples.what is true is that the bohra progressives have gone backwards,look at at adamjee pirbhai sons in india and karimjees in e.a and other dushamnos elsewhere are this the people you are talking about

tahir
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Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#9

Unread post by tahir » Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:44 am

Originally posted by mature:
mh please tell us how has the bohra community gone backwards in present years with specific examples.
Here is an specific example:
Just a couple of years back we had orthos like 'qiyam', now we have you. A clear indication of decline in kothar's intelligence. That happened in record time!! If you think you are an exception, take a look at others of your creed in a similar debate.
STUNTED GROWTH

mature
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Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#10

Unread post by mature » Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:51 am

please answer my question how have we gone backwards and no abuse pleaseeee since that is your speciality when defeated

mature
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Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#11

Unread post by mature » Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:56 am

i would also add that most progressives are the who have gone backwards as i stated above two examples of those who were filthy rich now where are they,there must be other examples of reformists who were rich and are now in bad times due to adawat please if you know any give their names here for public knowledge

tahir
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Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#12

Unread post by tahir » Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:01 pm

Originally posted by mature:
no abuse pleaseeee since that is your speciality when defeated
mature,
You find your own name abusive!! I can guess who has named you... ;)
The very fact that a kothari has to keep a strict 24 hr vigil on this board indicates their insecurity about the progress of progressives. Hope it answers your query. Btw, congrats for the "fateh mubin".

jamanpasand
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#13

Unread post by jamanpasand » Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:54 pm

Mature

Be prepared to see this banner on next Ashara

Love syedna and get rich

May be an advance notice can bring extra attendance. Good Luck.

jamanpasand
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#14

Unread post by jamanpasand » Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:06 pm

Then all Jogashwari mumineens will have houses in Malabu.

Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#15

Unread post by Alislam » Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:24 pm

Mature,

please tell us how has the bohra community gone backwards in present years with specific examples.what is true is that the bohra progressives have gone backwards,look at at adamjee pirbhai sons in india and karimjees in e.a and other dushamnos elsewhere are this the people you are talking about

--- Read the article written by an insider on the "Mumineen.org" site

Brief, the article is about the lack of progress among the petty shop keepers, ie bohras.

Full Article :

http://jamaats.mumineen.org/2005/11/tal ... tices.html

observer
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2000 5:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#16

Unread post by observer » Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:06 pm

Mature

Lets not talk about the Karimjees and Adamji Pirbhais. Go to East Africa and you will see a lot of corpses of all those khidmatguzars ( a nice word)on the side of the road. Their children have now become paupers. Check out the Customwallas, Karachiwallas, Adhiwalla ....should I go on. What happenend to the barkat that was supposed to be showered on these people for their deeds. They have been wiped out financially and their projeny does not have any money.

Talk about bohora success. We have now been in the UK for a good 40 years. Show me some successes. There is only Noon Mithaiwalla (who made arrangements for Busaheba's grave) who you can call a success. Otherwise we Bohoras are all in service with small jobs and dukas and trooping to the mosque. The older generation which has settled in UK are mostly in council homes sold during teh time of Maragaret Thather. I know of some wealthy people from East Africa who live in council subsidized homes and are aslo receiving welfare. SO go figure.We do not have time to work and succeed at anything. We are too busy eating.

accountability
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Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#17

Unread post by accountability » Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:49 pm

Mature: I can give you my personel experience, when i was in university, every second home had one son or daughter in university, trying to become doctor and engineer, i was in bohra youth, the building in which the youth was operating, was a waqf building in government, we were doing a great job, distributing books, copies etc for the next year. me and others like me were forced to abondon, i was told by jamat that in youth, people are smoking, and against dawat, and we should better join talabatul kuliat, but i can tell this on oath, that i never smoked, neither did i see anyone who smoked inside the building, i saw young people playing badminton, volleyball, reading. i did not see any anti social or any anti dawat activity. but just because of some ignorant clergy bohra youth was banned. kuliyat could never fullfil the vacancy left by youth. no books for poor school going children, no fees arrangment for them. in those days, bohras were taking pride in being educated. in pakistan all the professionals in bohras are from that time. if you take current statastics, they are horrible and frightening, our youth has been misguided, there are declining no going for higher and professional education. if you can cite me some examples, how many of our kids are in medical and engineering and in high tech sectors. or cite me nos after ten years, how many are going to be professionals. right now bohras are creating sh: hussain gain and alikes, uneducated, unsophisticated, but dangerously loyal, and selfish. in karachi bohri bazar some years ago, the situation was so bad, that jamat had to interfere, give qarz hasana to shopkeepers to save them from going out of business, and stop them from selling the shops, one reason pointed out was, that in saddar bohri bazar, the shopkeeper were doing less business, and attending ashara more, so they could not keep pace with their expenditures. our life style has become so exhibitionsist in some way that it is touching the boundaries of ignorance. this lifestyle is falsely maintained by any means. i give you an example, in recent years in karachi, there was a scandal, involving one mulla's kin and one sheikh's kin female relative, they were involved in that kind of business, when they were asked by law enforcing authorities, that your community do not involve in such things, they said they are doing this to support our life style. do not refute me, summarily. if you need to confirm, go ask the guy who used to fill the nikah forms in karachi jamat office in adam masjid.

allbird
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#18

Unread post by allbird » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:43 pm

Originally posted by tahir:
Originally posted by mature:
mh please tell us how has the bohra community gone backwards in present years with specific examples.
Here is an specific example:
Just a couple of years back we had orthos like 'qiyam', now we have you. A clear indication of decline in kothar's intelligence. That happened in record time!! If you think you are an exception, take a look at others of your creed in a similar debate.
STUNTED GROWTH
Like i said before many a times start your Ashagri Bohra sect and teach us Poor backward bohras what islam is all about. lets start with your creed tahir.... Do i need to cut and paste my previous request for translation of Abde Syedna....

jamanpasand
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#19

Unread post by jamanpasand » Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:13 pm

I share views of accountability and wants to add that even wealthy bohras that we see today are due to sale of real estates that were inherited from their forefather. On their own they have not made any progress.

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#20

Unread post by tahir » Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:38 pm

IMHO, material wealth and number of people with professional degrees is a very superficial definition of progress. The real progress happens when the Weltanschauung (A german term for world view) is broadened. Bohras have acquired big and modern houses, more cars, mobiles, Tv sets and other modern gadgets than they used to have two decades back, but at the same time,their horizon has shrunk. They have become more inward looking, xenophobic and tribal minded with a sole concern for material wealth - filthy rich in true sense.

When I was a kid, I used to see so many young guys from my mohalla spending a good amount of time in sports and leisure activities. Earning money used to begin at 25. My elder brother played cricket at university level and kept playing the game till he was thirty. Many other bohra youth played kho kho, kabaddi, gilli danda, kancha apart from sports like cricket. Girls, till their early youth, used to freely mingle with guys and played sports like badminton, table tennis and swimming. There were many clubs (independent of kothar) which used to organise cultural programmes (drama, singing etc. ) and sports tournaments every year on syedna's birthday. In the evening there were lots of discussions about performance of Indian cricket team or Amitabh's next movie and there were sweet quarrels regarding the same.

Everything has changed now. Right from the age of 16, a bohra boy is concerned about how much money he is going to make and what car/mobile he would purchase. Girls are groomed for marriage just after misaq. They start wearing Rida after 15 and there is a long time since I saw a young bohra girl playing any outdoor sport. Anyone who doesn't confirm to these norms is looked upon as "faltoo" and wasting his time. All the clubs are under strict kothar control and the only culture activities they organise is madeh/marsiya competetion. If a girl at 21 or a guy at 24 is "still" unmarried, they are seen as object of pity and their parents are pestered by the women folk to get them married or else, they say, the kids are doomed. It seems radiculous that the society pressurises you to get married!! The overall environment has become too suffocating for a free spirited person to survive if he is living close to the community.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#21

Unread post by accountability » Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:11 pm

Originally posted by AlBird:
Originally posted by tahir:
Here is an specific example:
Just a couple of years back we had orthos like 'qiyam', now we have you. A clear indication of decline in kothar's intelligence. That happened in record time!! If you think you are an exception, take a look at others of your creed in a similar debate.
STUNTED GROWTH
Like i said before many a times start your Ashagri Bohra sect and teach us Poor backward bohras what islam is all about. lets start with your creed tahir.... Do i need to cut and paste my previous request for translation of Abde Syedna....
I think you have a memory or sensory problem, this thread was discussing the progres of bohras but you digress, and keep on repeating the same thing over and over again. reply to the points that i raised in post.

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#22

Unread post by tahir » Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:36 am

acc'bility,
That is actually scrotum problem... ;)

allbird
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#23

Unread post by allbird » Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:38 pm

Originally posted by tahir:
acc'bility,
That is actually scrotum problem... ;)
Yes tahir thats is the problem right said man!!!. Thats were your brains are located. Bingo peewee

allbird
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#24

Unread post by allbird » Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:52 pm

Originally posted by accountability:
Originally posted by AlBird:
Like i said before many a times start your Ashagri Bohra sect and teach us Poor backward bohras what islam is all about. lets start with your creed tahir.... Do i need to cut and paste my previous request for translation of Abde Syedna....
I think you have a memory or sensory problem, this thread was discussing the progres of bohras but you digress, and keep on repeating the same thing over and over again. reply to the points that i raised in post.
Yes i intrude into every topic and repeat same thing again. Well guess whats my reasons are, How can you discuss something sensible with people like tahir. On one hand you Asgari says we belive in the Dai but against the managemnent while on other hand likes of tahir display open vulgarity and use profinity against our Dai. tahir will someday have scrotum problem big time........just like he asked for insa-allah. Moula Ali once said spoken words cannot return just like the arrow so think before you say something.

allbird
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#25

Unread post by allbird » Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:48 pm

Originally posted by AlBird:
Originally posted by tahir:
acc'bility,
That is actually scrotum problem... ;)
Yes tahir thats is the problem right said man!!!. Thats were your brains are located. Bingo peewee
tahir your must be calling your mother a swine and father a PIG for klling an innocent goat for Aqeeqah on the birth of their son called tahir. Now don't teach me religion !!! and give discource i am just comparing Apples to Apples.

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#26

Unread post by tahir » Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:27 am

You are right, I cannot teach religion to someone who cannot differentiate between killing for sport (fun) and killing as a religious obligation and later consuming the meat. You already have a moron to teach you religion... :D

allbird
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#27

Unread post by allbird » Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:07 pm

Originally posted by tahir:
You are right, I cannot teach religion to someone who cannot differentiate between killing for sport (fun) and killing as a religious obligation and later consuming the meat. You already have a moron to teach you religion... :D
What religion obligation for YOU, cannine's like you don't even deserve a PIG as a secrifice. And i did say before compare Apples to Apples don't use religion for justification. I know lot of people kill their million dollars horses once injured are those people Pigs too expect for your parents !!!! :D :D

allbird
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#28

Unread post by allbird » Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:13 pm

Originally posted by AlBird:
Originally posted by tahir:
You are right, I cannot teach religion to someone who cannot differentiate between killing for sport (fun) and killing as a religious obligation and later consuming the meat. You already have a moron to teach you religion... :D
What religion obligation for YOU, cannine's like you don't even deserve a PIG as a secrifice. And i did say before compare Apples to Apples don't use religion for justification. I know lot of people kill their million dollars horses once injured are those people Pigs too expect for your parents !!!! :D :D
We all like to throw dirt on other but cannot take it. tahir if you cannot call your father a PIG and your mother a Swine then DON'T use for others. Like someone said before when you point 1 figure to others the rest 4 points towards you too. HOW TRUE, and next thing you offered you own sister for keepsake was that also your religious obligation. How your sister does not read this forum where her bother is PIMPING for his sister.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#29

Unread post by accountability » Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:24 pm

admin this is too much, this guy albird is crossing every limit, the discussion should never become personal to such extent that it crosses all civility and morality. i suggest he be given a strong warning that in any discussion the civility should not be crossed.

allbird
Posts: 498
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 am

Re: A golden opportunity lost – Part One

#30

Unread post by allbird » Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:48 pm

Originally posted by accountability:
admin this is too much, this guy albird is crossing every limit, the discussion should never become personal to such extent that it crosses all civility and morality. i suggest he be given a strong warning that in any discussion the civility should not be crossed.
Hey acco'ty

Why warn me !!!. Isn't this open board, tahir has used more profinity then i do addressing PERSONALY why no warning for tahir so far. Not a single one Ahh Ahhha. You single out a mumineen once identified you sort Admin to warn and BAN whats wrong with you, mental imbalance or ta'ssub. I have not used any word which tahir has not used in the past, INCLUDING referencing those words towards someones parents.

YOU Asgaris can use the 'B' words or 'F' words openly towards us BUT cannot digest in return.

tahir threw the first stone !!!!!!! not me!!!!!