what are you trying to achieve?

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
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what are you trying to achieve?

#1

Unread post by Guest » Tue Jan 02, 2001 4:00 pm

<br>Bhai Husayn,<p>what exactly are you trying to achieve by posting here? I applaud your niyat, but this is not a place of debate, it is a place of "preaching to the choir"<p>and remember that it is not your place to teach anyone. Let the progressives' naseeb determine their fate, if their minds open it will be because of Moula's TUS dua, not you. Remember where the road leads that is paved with good intentions.<p>if you wish to change the world, change it by your actions, not your words.<p>please, bolwu chalwu maaf.<p>wassalam<p>Abde Syedna TUS

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#2

Unread post by Guest » Tue Jan 02, 2001 4:41 pm

Assalamu alayk Dear Bhai Abde,<p>Maulana has said in vaiz that we should not lose one mumin to shaytan or the hellfire. This is the jihad and is fardh on every mumin. I have not preached anything they already don't know about and I have not preached anything of my own accord. If I have stated something of religion it has been a quote from a Dai or Imam or the Prophet or Allah via Quran. Nothing I have stated is new nor of taweel in nature. Ignorance of the truth is an excuse but ignoring the truth when presented is not. Let it be known the truth was spoken.<p>If only one person reading this board is brought into the understanding of our din then I have done what Allah, Rasuallah, the Imams and the Dais,including Maulana have told us to do. And I know many have. Most of the problems of the reformist and majority bohra is ignorance of the din. They get caught up the rituals without knowing the actual niyyat of the rituals. Then they make up their own interpretation of what it is for and then argue. This is exactly what the Sunni Madhabs have done. Once they makeup their own interpretation...don't want to listen until confronted. We are one ummah.<p>I do try to live by my actions in promoting Islam, but I will probably not meet most of those on this board.<p>Was salamu alayk<p> <br>

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#3

Unread post by Guest » Tue Jan 02, 2001 4:43 pm

Assalamu alayk Dear Bhai Abde,<p>Maulana has said in vaiz that we should not lose one mumin to shaytan or the hellfire. This is the jihad and is fardh on every mumin. I have not preached anything they already don't know about and I have not preached anything of my own accord. If I have stated something of religion it has been a quote from a Dai or Imam or the Prophet or Allah via Quran. Nothing I have stated is new nor of taweel in nature. Ignorance of the truth is an excuse but ignoring the truth when presented is not. Let it be known the truth was spoken.<p>If only one person reading this board is brought into the understanding of our din then I have done what Allah, Rasuallah, the Imams and the Dais,including Maulana have told us to do. And I know many have. Most of the problems of the reformist and majority bohra is ignorance of the din. They get caught up the rituals without knowing the actual niyyat of the rituals. Then they make up their own interpretation of what it is for and then argue. This is exactly what the Sunni Madhabs have done. Once they makeup their own interpretation...don't want to listen until confronted. We are one ummah.<p>I do try to live by my actions in promoting Islam, but I will probably not meet most of those on this board.<p>Was salamu alayk<p> <br>

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#4

Unread post by Guest » Tue Jan 02, 2001 5:08 pm

<br>obviously, no "mumineen" shoudl be lost - nd they won't be. This has nothing to do with kaffirs or munafiqin. <p>Neither Allah, Rasulullah, Aimat Tahireen, nor the Duat Mutlaqin have told mumineen to prosletyze. Atleast, not in this zaman. Moula TUS has emphasised that in *this* zaman, our jihad is the personal one. It is Moula TUS who brings mumineen together and on the path. The responsibility of the mumineen is therefore to follow - not lead.<p>wassalam<p>Abde Syedna TUS

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#5

Unread post by Guest » Tue Jan 02, 2001 5:31 pm

Assalamu alayk Bhai Abde<p>Actually you are wrong in one part, for the munafiqeen (hypocrite). This board says they follow Sayedna as the Dai, yet don't want to follow what he says...that is hyprocritical.<br>Your are correct when you say we, as mumineen, are not to preach what is commonly not known, which I have said that I don't post my own statements as fatwas. This you need raza from an amil to know if your compentant to preach such things. Everything I have posted is published in kitab form from Dawat-e-Hadiyah. All I have talked about should be nothing new to the common bohra. However, some forget, some misunderstand, some don't want to understand. Maulana says we should follow, but he also says to help your fellow mumineen in ibadat. And it's through teaching fellow bohras and other muslims and especially praticing ourselves what Maulana has taught us of this din of Islam that makes us stronger in our faith. This is Maulana's dua and shafaq for us. To follow in his Siyo. It is difficult to practice a personal jihad if your base knowledge is corrupt.<p>Was salam alayk

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#6

Unread post by Guest » Tue Jan 02, 2001 6:54 pm

Husayn wrote:<p>*** Most of the problems of the reformist and majority bohra is ignorance of the din. ***<p>Yes, the problem with the orthodox Bohra is ignorance of Deen. But who can you blame? Decades of brainwashing, coercion and blind faith by a corrupt priesthood? Now, where would you start in Deen when every aspect of it has been tainted with the word "MONEY" in it?<p>The remarkable success of the Progressive Bohra website is the result of well-re-searched, relevant and scholarly work by highly intelligent people. They present SOLID argument based on Quran and historical facts. Yet, there is not ONE orthodox site which comes remotely close to the wealth of information on this site.<p>On a personal note I credit my increased faith and trust in Allah to Mr Asgharali Engineer and his friends. May Allah help them continue to share knowledge about Islam!<p>In any case, shouldn't you be fixing YOUR OWN camp, whose ignorance you have readily admitted to us, instead of preaching to us? Have you noticed the irony in this, of calling us "munafiqeen" for having the guts to openly learn and share knowledge about Islam, when your own camp is one of ignorance?<p>The problem with you Husayn is that you are denying the reality of whats going on. As a consequence, you are unable to answer some of the questions posted and instead you resort to the classic "I have not seen/heard that..." solution. The sooner you people wake up, the better for you.<p><br>

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#7

Unread post by Guest » Tue Jan 02, 2001 7:25 pm

Assalamu alayk Br. Muslim<p>You have quoted me correctly but didn't read what you quoted. I said ignorance of din by reformist and majority of bohra. This in noways mean any or all are ignorant of Allah, the Prophet or the Imams...I want to make that clear. Unfortunately, what you call brainwashing I call reeducating. You have been taught a method belief quite different from what the Dai teachs. Mr. Engineer, on this very site, has been proven not to be a reliable source of Islamic information. I have seen no books of dawat information from the reformist other than when they put down the orthos. What solid information from Quran and historical facts are you referring to? My camp is being fixed constantly thru sabaq and reeducation thru reliable and educated sources...not persons who promote what they thinks things should be. The reformist are of those gone astray.<p>Please name a question that I have not answered that you yourself have the answer for with reliable evidence. I cannot recall being in this situation yet. I don't respond or comment on things I haven't experienced or don't know the answer to...if I did it would conjecture and lying. Reformist seem to do that alot. You say the Sayedna is pocketing all the zakat and wajibat money...where is your proof or evidence? I provided evidence and example of the moneys I know he's given and still you say this. Who's denying reality?<p>I have and provided evidence for the things I promote and believe in and the reformist don't. I went thru the same with "mumineen" and they boiled down to "I am right, your wrong" without providing evidences against my responses.<p>It seems to me, every problem the reformist has occurs when they are required to practice the tenets of Islam: Tawhid, Wilayat, Salat, Zakat, Sawm, Hajj and Jihad according to the Prophet, Imams, and Dais.<p>Was salams

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#8

Unread post by Guest » Tue Jan 02, 2001 7:37 pm

<br>obviously, there are munafiqin here. trying to do hujjat with munafiqin is futile. that is what I am telling you.<p>neither do you have the authority to educate the kaffir, regardless of whether you are using kutab-ul Dawat or not.<p>finally, the third category - the mumin, who simply lacks 'ilm. you have assumed the role of madrasah/sabaq saheb, I see from your explanation. Again this is not acceptable. <p>Moula TUS says assist your fellow mumin - true. Help them with ibadat - NOT with 'ilm. You have confused/muddled the two. it is very critical you understand the difference.<p>you said, "through teaching fellow bohras and other muslims and especially praticing ourselves what Maulana has taught us of this din of Islam that makes us stronger in our faith."<p>this is wrong. you have no authority to teach anyone regarding 'ilm or faith. Only ibadat - which Moula TUS teaches, and you can assist. understand the difference. To make your faith stronger, look towards your own amal first and do not worry about the faith of others. Moula TUS has assumed that responsibility and as a rising tide, floats our community upwards. <p>again, I repeat that your niyat is good. But your method is quite wrong - I think you have operated on a false assumption.<p>As for the people on this message board, let them be. they will either find our truth or find some substitute, as per their naseeb. They are not your concern, nor mine - leave them to their words.<p>wassalam<p>Abde Syedna TUS

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#9

Unread post by Guest » Tue Jan 02, 2001 8:05 pm

Assalamu alayk Dear Bhai Abde<br>What is ibadat? How do we perform ibadat? We do this by the ilm we are taught. How do we know Allah, the Prophet, the Imams, and the Dais? By the ilm we are taught. Ilm is knowledge. If I teach my son to perform salat I have taught him the ilm of salat. There is quite a large difference between the zahir (present) and tawil (hidden) ilm. The zahir is the actions and duas we recite when performing the salat. The tawil is the trues reasons behind the salats and its meanings and rewards. What your referring to is the tawil ilm which should not be interpreted by anyone except without raza. Zahir ilm is the obvious ibadats of belief in Allah, the Prophet, Imams, the Dais, reciting Quran, performing salat, fasting, etc. and even this has it's limits.<p>And no, I have not assumed the role of a madresa sahab for sabaqs. Everything I have posted you can find at any Dawoodi Bohra bookstore without raza. That is the difference.<p>Was salams<br>

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#10

Unread post by Guest » Tue Jan 02, 2001 8:22 pm

Husayn I have posted this before but again in reply to your statement: " This board says they follow Sayedna as the Dai, yet don't want to follow what he says...that is hyprocritical".<p>If you read carefully it clearly says Reformist "challenge the authoritarian ways of the priesthood and not the religious authority of the Da’i (high priest)".<br>I don't think any reformist bohra has or is questioning the (if I may say) Dai'ship or the existence or belief of Dai which is fundamental pillar of Bohraism. <br>The fight here is the person who is DAI (or is at the seat of DAI) and his administration that is running the affairs of this community. <br>Through out past 50 years, there are clear documented evidence against the DAI and the administration via court cases, baraats, violence/torture and other passive methods used by the khotar to suppress the opposition.<p><br>Hyder.<br>

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#11

Unread post by Guest » Tue Jan 02, 2001 8:38 pm

<br>Bhai Husayn,<p>ibadat and 'ilm are two separate things. you are confusing 'ilm with madrasah instruction - teaching someone to do ibadat is not teaching them 'ilm. 'im is *why* we do ibadat, not *how*. And Moula TUS tells us to help mumineen *do* ibadat, not teach them *why*. You have confused the *how* with the *why* when you claim that Moula TUS instructs you to teach others.<p>the difference between tawwil and zahir 'ilm is not what you think. *all* 'ilm, be it tawwil or zahir, still is 'ilm and may only be taught, or printed, with raza. You have no authority to attempt to teach it.<p>what you must understand is that you also are operating under assumptions and instinct when you try to teach others. Sometimes your assumptions and instincts are wrong - especially when dealing with such a sensitive matter as 'ilm (be it tawwil or not). that is why you *must not* take it upon yourself. you are wrong in this case, bhai, and I tell you this out of gentle admonishment, not out of scorn or anger. Unlike the others on this board, I believe that you will submit to Truth and not labor onwards in prideful delusion.<p>one final note - bookstores in Mumbai obtain raza to sell kitabs. no one has obtained raza to mass-distribute that same information electronically (and many have asked). No one even has raza to print kitabs yet in the West. You, as a mumin, have raza from Moula TUS to purchase a kitab from a raza-bearing bookstore, for your personal use only. You do NOT have raza to become a secondary distributor of that material. do you understand the subtle difference?<p>my email is AbdeSyednaTUS @ Hotmail if you wish to continue discussion privately. there is nothing more for me to say here.<p>wassalam<p>Abde Syedna TUS

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#12

Unread post by Guest » Tue Jan 02, 2001 8:59 pm

Assalamu alayk Dear Abde<br>So what you are saying is I can buy a copy of the Kitab Salat wa Ibadat published by Dawat-e-Hadhaiyah but cannot explain to my son what is in? Bhu Saheb has clearly defined the basic zahir ilm of our belief in this book. I agree with you and you have reiterated the points between zahir and tawil ilm but I think it is you who have confused the two. I am not teaching anyone anything that isn't told to us in vaiz, available kitabs, and publicly published articles by ustads. These are used by the general community. I have not published anything nor plan to over the internet.<p>I appreciate your kind words and gentle warnings but I have not said or done anything wrong.<p>Salam

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#13

Unread post by Guest » Tue Jan 02, 2001 9:00 pm

was salamu alayk<br>Husayn asks what proof our high preists not pocket zakat etc, one do not have to go beyond Bohri moholla in Mumbai, right infront of one of our most mordern holly places the Roude Tun Taherattan and one will ,especially during the month of Ramadhan, find scores of very poor and needy moomins begging, or may be the "kothari´s" are blinded by the faith that they do nos see such poorty, hardship and misery on our mumins

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#14

Unread post by Guest » Tue Jan 02, 2001 9:09 pm

After reading this Abde's posts, Husayn has risen in my admiration much that i may hate his polite, soft-spoken kohari propagandan. This Abde fellow takes the cake. You can't get more stupid, more orthodox, more colse-minded than him. Or even more shameless and hypocritical, for that matter. The guy who for all practical purposes thinks and behaves like a Kothar's pooch has the cheek to call reformists "people of the choir". I find this endlessly amusing. And if that were not enough, he has the gumption to tell Husayn not come sell his stuff on this board. In effect, what Abde is saying is that Husayn doesn't have the RAZA to talk about matters of ilm, and must shut up.<br>And i know why Abde is saying what he's saying: Just imagine if every tom, dick and husayn of the Kothar started coming and talking here what will happen to the Kothar's control over the community and its special grip over the "religious knowledge" which it keeps in wraps?? It will all get out of hand!

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#15

Unread post by Guest » Tue Jan 02, 2001 9:14 pm

<br>Bhai Husayn,<p>you said, "So what you are saying is I can buy a copy of the Kitab Salat wa Ibadat published by Dawat-e-Hadhaiyah but cannot explain to my son what is in"<p>I did NOT say that. Please withhold rush to defensive/judgemental interpretation of my words. <p>Buying a kitab, and teaching your son from it, counts as "personal use". I had hoped this would be implicit in my earlier explanation but I am happy to make this point clear, despite my distaste for the forum. you may email me freely at my email I disclosed above<p>you say, "I have not published anything nor plan to over the internet." However, posting to this site *is* "distribution" on the internet, beyond the scope of the raza. Publishing 'ilm - regardless of whether it is tawwil or not tawwil - on a website run by people opposed to Dawat is clearly wrong.<p>I hope you understand the difference. I am disturbed by how easily you refuse to admit the possibility that you are mistaken. I do not understand why you are insistent on this destructive and futile course of action. <p>you said I have confused tawwil and non-tawwil 'ilm? please explain why you think so.<p><br>wassalam<p>Abde Syedna TUS

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#16

Unread post by Guest » Tue Jan 02, 2001 9:24 pm

<br>Humsafar,<p>as a progressive myself, I like Abde better than Husayn. Do we need Orthodox Bohras coming here and saying the same thing over and over? we already know where we stand and where they stand. Husayn has contributed very little to this board. At least Abde is getting him out of our hair<p>abde are you also same as original JTariq or Abde Syedna TUS? <p>anyway if any of you remember me, I am teh one who said that we shouldn't even bother with the Orthos at all and we shoudl break free of their control. We should start our own community, based on our own principles, and create our own networks and global connections.<p>And I still think that Dr Engineer's insistence of remaining part of this Bohra community, instead of having the intellectual courage to stike out on our own and pursue our ideals (live and let live!), has harmed our movement more than it has helped. I fully expect Yes-men to come out in support of Dr Enginee's policies - doesn't it strike anyone as odd that we are trying to fight for our own sense of identity, yet we remain tied to a Dai whose validity we do not recognize? And that we say we are for independent thought but follow Dr Engineer (whose ideals are now dated and from an earlier era) blindly?<p>let us forge something new, and for teh first time be committed to action rather than pointless complaints and recrimination. That is the future!

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#17

Unread post by Guest » Tue Jan 02, 2001 9:43 pm

I agree with Abde. Husayn has no "raza" to come to this message board and share with us his knowledge. On the other hand, Abde, you have no "raza" either to come to this message board and ask Husayn to stop.<p>Coming to think of it, I have no "raza" to tell you all this. But then I don't care do I? Can you two fight somewhere else? :-)<p>

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#18

Unread post by Guest » Tue Jan 02, 2001 9:49 pm

Dear Br. Abde,<br>I would gladly admit that I am wrong and have done it before on this site, when I am proven wrong by evidence not by opinions and blank statements. That the only response I get from the reformist...I expect better from you my brother. <p>Regarding the use of kitabs...we share kitabs from mumineen to munineen across this entire world and show each other how recite duas, salat, etc. without raza because these kitabs are for the general public. If I teach my brother in faith how to say a niyyat for a salat, according to your analogy I need raza, but according to the kitab being in the public I don't. Do you see why what you say for this topic doesn't make sense.<p>I don't need raza to post religious things which are not tawil in nature. If I tell a reformist you must pay their wajibat, or follow the Dais teachings, or obey the laws of the Quran there is nothing tawil about these ideas. They are zahir in nature (obvious and present). That is why in sabaqs you need raza from the amil to attention tawil and haqiqat sabaqs but not zahir sabaqs. And I am not teaching or giving fatwas that would require a raza. I am reiterating what is in writing already.<p>Raza is to confirm the ilm (both action and word) is correct according to the Dawat and Dai. This raza is published right on the kitabs I am referring to and quoting from..not my own words.<p>The reason I am even posting on this board is because most of those that read these posts attend the same markez/masjid programs you attend, maybe praying right next to you in the suff, and maybe your close friend without you knowing it.<p>Was salam

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#19

Unread post by Guest » Wed Jan 03, 2001 1:15 am

salaam hussain and Abe bro,<br> Why are you guys fighting like kids on this board.Abde bhai first of all you need raza to come on this munafiq board and post and adise hussain bro to stop writing,it is a big sin not to take raza and you can go hell for this deed,so you go to your local aamil do big salaam and take raza and come back.Hussain bhai why are you caring "that we should not lose one mumin to shaytan or the hellfire" if the leader of community and kothar does not care though are resposible for this as he is the representative of fatemi Immaam in his seclusion (purda),dont waste time on this munafiq people board instead become a Sheikh or Mullah sahab by doing 50 grand salam and have party and fun with kothari bhai sahabs and other mashaiq,have namaz in first row in masjid and invitation to all ziyafats and lavish food and stuff.Progressives your leader Asghari Ali is an agent of kothar like Sadam Hussain of US, which they are using for their own interest.<p>peace<br>

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#20

Unread post by Guest » Wed Jan 03, 2001 4:03 pm

<br>Bhai Husayn,<p>note that you don't need raza to speak to other mumineen. I speak to you freely but I will not interact with the others.<p>you say, "If I teach my brother in faith how to say a niyyat for a salat, according to your analogy I need raza"<p>Incorrect. you have raza to teach a known mumin how to say a niyat. Moula TUS tells us to help other mumineen.<p>you say, "but according to the kitab being in the public I don't."<p>the kitab is NOT in "public". The kitab is sold by certain distributors who have raza to sell it. Mumineen have raza to buy it for their "personal use" - of them and their family and friends. I have explained this previously.<p>you say, "I don't need raza to post religious things which are not tawil in nature. If I tell a reformist you must pay their wajibat, or follow the Dais teachings, or obey the laws of the Quran there is nothing tawil about these ideas."<p>why are you telling the munafiq or the kaffir any of these things? Moula TUS tells us to stay away from them. It is not your responsibility nor your concern. This too I have explained previously.<p>I assure you that you have infact confused what 'ilm is with what ibadat is. Ibadat - for example, the 7 Da'im al-Islam - is something you are free to explain (go to Hajj. Fast. etc.). These are *what* we are instructed to do under Deen. see my previous post.<p>'Ilm is more than that - it is the *why* we do the things we do. You have in fact strayed into discussing 'ilm many times, when you attempt to explain why things are the way they are. Look over your posts and understand that you have crossed the line. <p>If you desire to simply post things like, "the rosa niyats are such and such" or you wish to re-iterate the 7 Da'im (one sentence, essentially), then that is fine. You are mis-representing the level of explanation you have tried to communicate, and I understand that in your zeal to make a point you may overstep unintentionally. I am only seeking to make you aware that there is a line and that you have crossed it, likely unawares.<p>However, you clearly have taken offense - otherwise you would not compare me to the munafiqin. Since you clearly do not desire my advice, I will cease providing it. You may contact me on email if you choose. There is no point in furthering the discussion here. If you want to know my qualifications and discuss these issues I will be happy to correspond to you in private.<p>wassalam,<br>Abde Syedna TUS

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#21

Unread post by Guest » Wed Jan 03, 2001 7:32 pm

'Crossing the line', 'overstepping the limits'. Now we're talking. Who can speak such a language other than the bored, brain-dead mullas who impose mindless cult-like discipline on a hapless people and call it Fatemi Dawat. One is not surprised by either the brainlessness or heartlessness of people like Abde, yet you cannot cease to wonder what is it that keeps them going. For what religion with any humanity would condemn dissenters as "munafiqueen", and what religious head with any humanity would advise his followers to "stay away from them".<br>What a mockery of religion! What a mockery of Fatemi Dawat!

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#22

Unread post by Guest » Wed Jan 03, 2001 8:22 pm

<br>come on, Abde Syedna - stop ignoring the real debate. I notice you haven't even responded once to anyone but Husayn. what do you have to say?

Guest

Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#23

Unread post by Guest » Wed Jan 03, 2001 9:11 pm

Well! well! abde you proved yourself what a dork you are. keep digging a bigger hole yourself. <p>This humors me; that now you guys need so called razas to buy and sell books, razas to read books. You probably have raza to Shit and pea I believe?. I guess it serves you right to get razas for everything because you dorks can't decide anything yourselves anyway’s.<p>Just cacoon yourself in your own little world and wait for the razas and 'saffai nee chitti'.<p>Get a life.<p>Hyder.<br>

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#24

Unread post by Guest » Thu Jan 04, 2001 5:11 am

I think Abde has a PhD in 'Raza' qualification. What do y'all think?<br>

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#25

Unread post by Guest » Sat Jan 06, 2001 4:17 pm

abde,do you take RAZA for every time you screw your wife if not its a very big GUNNAH,RAZA LOO FOR SCRWEWING YOUR WIFE EVERY TIME.

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Re: what are you trying to achieve?

#26

Unread post by Guest » Sat Jan 06, 2001 5:15 pm

Hey Husayn, Abdo and all the fanatics of Burhanuddin:<p>How you like the idea of Mukhlis? You dorks better get raza everytime you fuck your wives or mistress. That way your Burhanuddin can make more money. Have some feedback.