I notice lately there has been a surfeit of "blind followers" on this board who swear they are proud to be one. Here is a joke:
Question: How many blind followers does it take to change a light bulb?
Answer: Never mind; they prefer to remain in the dark.
I googled "Blind Followers" and, not surprisingly, most websites pulled up were about Islam.
Recently I participated in Sayedna's birthdy celebrations and we were treated to a 4 hour waez of Sayedna. You would have thought the followers would be listening with rapturous attention. No such luck. Most were bored and both ladies and men were intent on exchanging pleasantries throughout. Mullas kept asking the folks to keep quiet out of respect for Sayedna. But their treaties fell on deaf ears. So blindness leads to deafness too in matters of faith!!
I managed to get some of the things Sayedna was talking about. He mentioned Adam Kulli and held forth on his significance. I asked a large number of both men and women after the waez if they knew who Adam Kulli was. No one knew. Then I asked if they listened to Sayedna. They stared at me in disbelief.
Maybe one day, they will find out what Sayedna teaches and learn to be followers. They will exercise Free Will, God's gift to a human to decide whether to follow Sayedna or not.
By the way, Adam Kulli is about Free Will. Blind followers should read Kirmani, whose name was dropped a couple of times by Sayedna.
Blind Followers
Re: Blind Followers
porus,
I took your lead and googled "blind followers" and I have to reach the conclusion that you didn't understand what you were reading or that you are deliberately misleading people. I would advise more people to google "blind followers" and read some of the articles about Islam.
I took your lead and googled "blind followers" and I have to reach the conclusion that you didn't understand what you were reading or that you are deliberately misleading people. I would advise more people to google "blind followers" and read some of the articles about Islam.
Re: Blind Followers
anajmi,
That "google' comment was misplaced. I withdraw it. And I am sorry if anyone was misled.
There are just as many blind followers in Islam as there are in all other religions, both old and new. And there are enlightened followers of these religions too.
That "google' comment was misplaced. I withdraw it. And I am sorry if anyone was misled.
There are just as many blind followers in Islam as there are in all other religions, both old and new. And there are enlightened followers of these religions too.
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Blind Followers
Porus,
Did you participate in Sayedna's birthday celebrations out of Free Will ? Or are you one of the ones you speak of ?
Did you participate in Sayedna's birthday celebrations out of Free Will ? Or are you one of the ones you speak of ?
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narrowally
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Blind Followers
Salam everyone,
Porus is a pakistani, Mumineen please look out for this snake in the grass. He attains waaz for jaman and then haram khori after that on this forum. If he say he does not eat this nehamat then he is the only person leaving Waaz without eating. How difficult to locate him. Once located please show him what we do to snakes..
Zazza al khair
Porus is a pakistani, Mumineen please look out for this snake in the grass. He attains waaz for jaman and then haram khori after that on this forum. If he say he does not eat this nehamat then he is the only person leaving Waaz without eating. How difficult to locate him. Once located please show him what we do to snakes..
Zazza al khair
Re: Blind Followers
A very perceptive question, AB.Originally posted by Average Bohra:
Porus,
Did you participate in Sayedna's birthday celebrations out of Free Will ? Or are you one of the ones you speak of ?
Following on from Kirmani, I do not believe that I am able to exercise Free Will just yet. Whether I am a blind follower of Sayedna, I leave you to ponder.
Re: Blind Followers
I got an interesting link on googling "blind followers"
Loyalty is for blind followers and weak leaders
it is so true in the bohri context
Loyalty is for blind followers and weak leaders
it is so true in the bohri context
Re: Blind Followers
A very interesting post Porus. Thanks for the insight into the bored and baffled blind followers. Not that that their behaviour came as a surprise but it sort of reconfirms what one has always known.
A piece of advice: I don't care whether you attend the next majlis out free will or not, but you'd better eat the jaman. The goons are on the lookout for you.
A piece of advice: I don't care whether you attend the next majlis out free will or not, but you'd better eat the jaman. The goons are on the lookout for you.
Re: Blind Followers
Blind followers are not just restricted to Islam. All religions have
their fair share. Many bohras feel that questioning religious
authority is tantamount to apostasy which in Islamic law is punishable
by death. Of course extra-judicial killings are no longer possible so
bohras resort to the next best thing: social boycott, excommunication
and often physical abuse.
In my hometown, Pune, we recently witnessed a spectacle of this
intolerance among the bohras. Many of you may have heard of the bohra
monthly "Nasim-e-Sahar". Sometime ago some articles appeared in
Nasim-e-Sahar in which the word "Hazrat" was used for the first three
Sunni Caliphs. Some brief words of praise were also written for
them. The consequences for the editor, Moiz Hussainy, were
disastrous. The amil called Jamaat meetings to discuss this. The
Jamaat deliberated for more than a week. Moiz Hussainy was insulted and
even physically threatened. Not only was he personally abused but as a
final humiliation he and his extended family were asked to take the
misaq again. In all this the amil conveniently forgot that Moiz, and
his father before him, have published for many decades nothing but
superlative praise for the dawaat. The sad thing is that even after
experiencing such humiliation he and his family are back to their old
sycophant ways.
The fifth Da'i, Sayedna Ali b' Mohammad al-Walid actually exhorts
people not to accept a religion simply because they were born into it
(in his book Taj al-aqaid). He may not have meant it for his own
followers but there is no reason way everyone should not carefully
examine their own beliefs. Further, many of the works of Kirmani were
actually devoted to correcting what he felt were erroneous views of
his predecessor da'is. All this without a hint of malice. Infact in
all cases Kirmani spoke reverentially of the da'i whos views he was
correcting. I wonder when the present day bohras will learn from these
great personalities of the dawaat. It may only happen when they stop
worshiping the dai's or Imams and actually contemplate on what they
had to say and how they lived their lives.
In my opinion building hospitals is a good thing. However, the purpose
of the Saifee hospital is more to dazzle ordinary bohras than truly
altruistic. In the opening daris the point that it was meant as a
victory over the perceived enemies of the dawaat was repeatedly
highlighted. It may yet serve many ordinary people and only time will
tell if the initial euphoria and expectations will be
sustained.
Service to humanity is a difficult thing to measure. A community which
pools together resources to help the needy is serving
humanity. Writing extensively on contemporary issues, as Dr.Engineer
has done, is also a service to humanity. In many ways money, tombs and
buildings will wither away, yet ideas of a few great men and women
will continue to influence humanity at large. Think of social
idealists like Gandhi, Mandela, or scientists like Einstein. Even
though these people never built tombs, hospitals or did extensive
charity they have, by any standards, rendered great service to
humanity. Our own early da'is were not rich yet they are still
remembered for the literature they wrote or the ideas they
developed. Who among the bohras today has the courage to develop new
concepts in religious philosophy relevant in contemporary conditions?
Maybe the da'i does not have the time to contribute in this direction
but he can certainly patronize others to do it. Today the only
creative things the bohras do is find new ways in which to praise the
da'is and better ways to show how abjectly subservient they are to
him.
I have visited this forum on a daily basis for many years now. If I
were to meet, say, Humsafar, Porus, Anajmi, Muslim First or some
others, it would be like meeting old friends. However I would be
greatly frightened to meet some of the homophobes or bohra fanatics
who have made their appearance in the last few weeks. I would never
know when they would resort to violence and administer their favorite
catchall argument: a severe thrashing. Anyway, I hope people exercise
more restraint and show more tolerance to others. That way the forum
will remain enjoyable and informative rather than become acrimonious
and violent.
their fair share. Many bohras feel that questioning religious
authority is tantamount to apostasy which in Islamic law is punishable
by death. Of course extra-judicial killings are no longer possible so
bohras resort to the next best thing: social boycott, excommunication
and often physical abuse.
In my hometown, Pune, we recently witnessed a spectacle of this
intolerance among the bohras. Many of you may have heard of the bohra
monthly "Nasim-e-Sahar". Sometime ago some articles appeared in
Nasim-e-Sahar in which the word "Hazrat" was used for the first three
Sunni Caliphs. Some brief words of praise were also written for
them. The consequences for the editor, Moiz Hussainy, were
disastrous. The amil called Jamaat meetings to discuss this. The
Jamaat deliberated for more than a week. Moiz Hussainy was insulted and
even physically threatened. Not only was he personally abused but as a
final humiliation he and his extended family were asked to take the
misaq again. In all this the amil conveniently forgot that Moiz, and
his father before him, have published for many decades nothing but
superlative praise for the dawaat. The sad thing is that even after
experiencing such humiliation he and his family are back to their old
sycophant ways.
The fifth Da'i, Sayedna Ali b' Mohammad al-Walid actually exhorts
people not to accept a religion simply because they were born into it
(in his book Taj al-aqaid). He may not have meant it for his own
followers but there is no reason way everyone should not carefully
examine their own beliefs. Further, many of the works of Kirmani were
actually devoted to correcting what he felt were erroneous views of
his predecessor da'is. All this without a hint of malice. Infact in
all cases Kirmani spoke reverentially of the da'i whos views he was
correcting. I wonder when the present day bohras will learn from these
great personalities of the dawaat. It may only happen when they stop
worshiping the dai's or Imams and actually contemplate on what they
had to say and how they lived their lives.
In my opinion building hospitals is a good thing. However, the purpose
of the Saifee hospital is more to dazzle ordinary bohras than truly
altruistic. In the opening daris the point that it was meant as a
victory over the perceived enemies of the dawaat was repeatedly
highlighted. It may yet serve many ordinary people and only time will
tell if the initial euphoria and expectations will be
sustained.
Service to humanity is a difficult thing to measure. A community which
pools together resources to help the needy is serving
humanity. Writing extensively on contemporary issues, as Dr.Engineer
has done, is also a service to humanity. In many ways money, tombs and
buildings will wither away, yet ideas of a few great men and women
will continue to influence humanity at large. Think of social
idealists like Gandhi, Mandela, or scientists like Einstein. Even
though these people never built tombs, hospitals or did extensive
charity they have, by any standards, rendered great service to
humanity. Our own early da'is were not rich yet they are still
remembered for the literature they wrote or the ideas they
developed. Who among the bohras today has the courage to develop new
concepts in religious philosophy relevant in contemporary conditions?
Maybe the da'i does not have the time to contribute in this direction
but he can certainly patronize others to do it. Today the only
creative things the bohras do is find new ways in which to praise the
da'is and better ways to show how abjectly subservient they are to
him.
I have visited this forum on a daily basis for many years now. If I
were to meet, say, Humsafar, Porus, Anajmi, Muslim First or some
others, it would be like meeting old friends. However I would be
greatly frightened to meet some of the homophobes or bohra fanatics
who have made their appearance in the last few weeks. I would never
know when they would resort to violence and administer their favorite
catchall argument: a severe thrashing. Anyway, I hope people exercise
more restraint and show more tolerance to others. That way the forum
will remain enjoyable and informative rather than become acrimonious
and violent.
Re: Blind Followers
Hello Kalim
I am one of the ardent followers of the Dai , and let me tell you after reading your post I have no intention to "thrash" you or any other forms of voilence.
You seem to be a reasonable person thus I too have a point to make.
You mention earlier Dais in your post , I would like to point out the last 2.
51 and 52.
You have some knowledge of deen so i ask you
Have you ever had a chance to read or hear any of Taher Saifuddin Maula's works.
Or his risalas.
Or his madehs.
Similarly anything by Aqa Burhanuddin.
From your post I doubt you have.
What all you progressives somehow don;t see is the progress we have made as a community.
We are definately more religious , more of our young are involved with the community more people are attending prayers , waaz , etc .
Of course some are there just for show but most are there for genuine reasons.
And its not that we are uneducated or backward as a community.
We may not have many Phds but we sure have a lot of Graduates.
I am one of the ardent followers of the Dai , and let me tell you after reading your post I have no intention to "thrash" you or any other forms of voilence.
You seem to be a reasonable person thus I too have a point to make.
You mention earlier Dais in your post , I would like to point out the last 2.
51 and 52.
You have some knowledge of deen so i ask you
Have you ever had a chance to read or hear any of Taher Saifuddin Maula's works.
Or his risalas.
Or his madehs.
Similarly anything by Aqa Burhanuddin.
From your post I doubt you have.
What all you progressives somehow don;t see is the progress we have made as a community.
We are definately more religious , more of our young are involved with the community more people are attending prayers , waaz , etc .
Of course some are there just for show but most are there for genuine reasons.
And its not that we are uneducated or backward as a community.
We may not have many Phds but we sure have a lot of Graduates.
Re: Blind Followers
hj786,
I would love to read the maula's risalas and madehs. Can you point me to a link or help me get hold of a book where I may be able to read them?
I would love to read the maula's risalas and madehs. Can you point me to a link or help me get hold of a book where I may be able to read them?
Re: Blind Followers
hj,And its not that we are uneducated or backward as a community.
We may not have many Phds but we sure have a lot of Graduates.
there is a fundamental difference between formal education and literacy....one can be a drop out from school and still be socially literate while another can be socially illiterate inspite of being a Phd. No doubt, bohras have a high ratio of doctors, engineers, lawyers, CAs etc. but the question is WHAT ARE THEIR CONCERNS? (sorry for being so repetetive)...as long as they are comfortable with and confirm to the exploitative establishment, I wont call them socially literate.
Re: Blind Followers
Or perhaps you would let Allah use violence against alleged enemies of Daawat. At least that is what you guys continually pray. In "wazaa'efuni", you beseech Allah to burn the enemies in hell. In "ghanno jeevo" madeh, the same refrain.Originally posted by hj786:
...I am one of the ardent followers of the Dai , and let me tell you after reading your post I have no intention to "thrash" you or any other forms of voilence....
If you are a reasonable chap, you might begin to question the whole enchilada. Imagine you are called upon to administer this punishment. You start with putting an enemy's hand on a hot stove. He screams, you pile on the oil and do extreme violence against this enemy, because you are convinced he has sinned. And he is trapped with no way out.
I, for one, would be sickened with this behavior of yours. And what would you call a person who wants to burn another human being? I would call him sick or thoroughly evil. So why would you also not call Allah sick or evil, since he has created this immeasurable hell? And why would you want to believe in this vengeful, evil God? And why would you want to follow anyone who asks you to pray for him in such a way that "evil' befalls him?
What are your answers based on your unquestioned following of Sayedna?
This is just one of a number of deep questions that you may not have investigated. I want to be sure that your faith in Sayedna is not the result of crowd psychology and charisma of your leaders in your gatherings. That it is based on intense soul searching with very difficult questions of faith.
Re: Blind Followers
porus,
I believe in God and the fact that he is going to fry the non-believers ass in hell fire. You better repent and ask for forgiveness and you get to go to heaven and enjoy all the pleasures of heaven.
You know the other thing is that they say that dwellers of heaven can actually see the people burning in hell fire. I am actually looking forward to it (if I land up in heaven inshaallah). I would love to see a few people getting burned.
I believe in God and the fact that he is going to fry the non-believers ass in hell fire. You better repent and ask for forgiveness and you get to go to heaven and enjoy all the pleasures of heaven.
You know the other thing is that they say that dwellers of heaven can actually see the people burning in hell fire. I am actually looking forward to it (if I land up in heaven inshaallah). I would love to see a few people getting burned.
Re: Blind Followers
I would of course be sorry to see people like you in hell.
-
Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Blind Followers
It is rather simplistic to think in terms of heaven and hell when hopefully you have a long life ahead of you. The here & now is more important as you are accountable for it, else you are indulging in escapism which is a luxury most can't afford.
It is indeed a sorry existence to actually looking forward to see the people burning in hell fire. The life that your God has given you in the here & now has to be a dismal failure for you to speak orgasmically of such events in the hereafter.
It is indeed a sorry existence to actually looking forward to see the people burning in hell fire. The life that your God has given you in the here & now has to be a dismal failure for you to speak orgasmically of such events in the hereafter.
Re: Blind Followers
Now now Average Bohra don't get carried away. It is the same as you wanting to see say Osama in Gitmo isn't it? or wouldn't you?
And as far as the here and now is concerned, save it!! My here and now is what is actually going to enable me to see some people burn in hell from the comfort of heaven inshaallah. And yes, I am actually looking forward to it!!
And as far as the here and now is concerned, save it!! My here and now is what is actually going to enable me to see some people burn in hell from the comfort of heaven inshaallah. And yes, I am actually looking forward to it!!
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Blind Followers
Osama in Gitmo ? Are you nuts ? He needs to be dead in the here & now.
Is it really heaven if your prize is gleefully watching people die ? You might as well go to Africa now and avoid the rush to heaven.
Is it really heaven if your prize is gleefully watching people die ? You might as well go to Africa now and avoid the rush to heaven.
-
Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Blind Followers
hj786,
I would really appreciate it if you can post a link to the risalas & madehs you speak of.
Thanks
I would really appreciate it if you can post a link to the risalas & madehs you speak of.
Thanks
Re: Blind Followers
Hi
I do not have access to these risalas the madehs and other duas are easily available in any of the regular shops that sell our litreture , ike the ones across Ruadat Tahera in Bombay.
You will be surprised to know the amount of day to day duas written by Syedna Thaer Saifuddin , from Ya Sayadas Shohodai to Allah a Talla n hamd tu Karje.
As far as his risalas are concerned u will need to attend sabaks , although there is one (i dont know the number) whic was published a s a paper in Oxford , the topic being Tawheed.
As far as praying to Allah to put enemies in Jahannum , I think if everybody did that and believed in justice of Allah , we would have no wars in this world.
Let HIM be the judge of who is wrong and who is right , as far as Him being evil revenging , let me point out that being just is different from being avengeful , would you call a judge evil just because he punishes the guilty , and whos a bigger judge than Allah.
Having a difference of opinion is fine and OK , but ridiculing a man of God and saying all he did and is doing is wrong , well our human opinion about you all doesnt matter but Allah will surely not like it.
We will all know ONE DAY!!
I do not have access to these risalas the madehs and other duas are easily available in any of the regular shops that sell our litreture , ike the ones across Ruadat Tahera in Bombay.
You will be surprised to know the amount of day to day duas written by Syedna Thaer Saifuddin , from Ya Sayadas Shohodai to Allah a Talla n hamd tu Karje.
As far as his risalas are concerned u will need to attend sabaks , although there is one (i dont know the number) whic was published a s a paper in Oxford , the topic being Tawheed.
As far as praying to Allah to put enemies in Jahannum , I think if everybody did that and believed in justice of Allah , we would have no wars in this world.
Let HIM be the judge of who is wrong and who is right , as far as Him being evil revenging , let me point out that being just is different from being avengeful , would you call a judge evil just because he punishes the guilty , and whos a bigger judge than Allah.
Having a difference of opinion is fine and OK , but ridiculing a man of God and saying all he did and is doing is wrong , well our human opinion about you all doesnt matter but Allah will surely not like it.
We will all know ONE DAY!!
Re: Blind Followers
I have an open question for all the "Progressives"
Is there one man on earth that you all would follow without question , I know its not the Dai for u all , who could be that one human and what qualities should that human have for you to follow him bila sawaal (without questions)?
If you all believe in Imam who is descendant of Rasul Lullah would you follow him ?
(Provided it is proven beyond doubt that he is the actual Imam)
Is there one man on earth that you all would follow without question , I know its not the Dai for u all , who could be that one human and what qualities should that human have for you to follow him bila sawaal (without questions)?
If you all believe in Imam who is descendant of Rasul Lullah would you follow him ?
(Provided it is proven beyond doubt that he is the actual Imam)
Re: Blind Followers
You don't have to follow anyone.
Think. Feel. Use reason. Use compassion. Draw your own conclusion. If you have to follow, follow yourself.
Think. Feel. Use reason. Use compassion. Draw your own conclusion. If you have to follow, follow yourself.
Re: Blind Followers
My answer is:
apa dweepo bhavah - be a light unto urself
apa dweepo bhavah - be a light unto urself
Re: Blind Followers
Average
. Africa gives me pain, whereas in heaven it will be pleasure.
And watching people burn ain't the only prize in heaven. How come you forgot about the houris?
I won't be watching people die. I will be watching them burn and still not be able to die. Burn foreverIs it really heaven if your prize is gleefully watching people die ? You might as well go to Africa now and avoid the rush to heaven.
. Africa gives me pain, whereas in heaven it will be pleasure.And watching people burn ain't the only prize in heaven. How come you forgot about the houris?
Re: Blind Followers
What an astounding solution to end all wars!! Everyone must pray that their enemies burn in hell. They would then be so busy praying that there would be no time for wars!Originally posted by hj786:
Hi
As far as praying to Allah to put enemies in Jahannum , I think if everybody did that and believed in justice of Allah , we would have no wars in this world.
Re: Blind Followers
Well the solution sounds more practical to me.
I'd rather pray than fight anytime.
That doesnt mean I will pray if someone attacks me or my loved ones , that is different, Im talking about ideological enemies here.
I'd rather pray than fight anytime.
That doesnt mean I will pray if someone attacks me or my loved ones , that is different, Im talking about ideological enemies here.
Re: Blind Followers
hj786,
I agree with Humsafar and Tahir. Follow no human without questioning first, no matter how mighty that human appears to be.
Would you cut off hands of a thief? This is a divinely ordained punishment as it is in the Quran.
Assuming you would follow Muhammad and Ali without question, let me quote two instances of punishments from Daaimul Islam, another book you are required to follow without question.
1. A noble woman was caught thieving and brought before Nabi Muhammad who ordered that her hand be cut off. People of Quyraysh questioned Prophet about the severity of punishment for such a small offence. Prophet replied that no one should interfere with Quranic injunction. Noblemen as well as slaves deserve the same punishment.
2. Once a certain Walid bin Uqba was brought in front of Hazrat Usman for a crime deserving a divinely ordained punishment. (I believe it was adultery). Usman, who was apparently related to Walid) declared that anyone holds that Walid desrevs punishment should carry it out. Seeing that Walid was a kin of Usman's no one moved. However, Ali ibn Abi Talib immediately delivered the appropriate punishment (lashes) with his own hands. He (Ali) said that Allah's decree should be applied equally to all whether relatives or non-relatives.
Let us expand this a bit further.
Ayman Zawahiri, the evil instructor of Usama bin Laden, believes that all the people who fail to rise up to overthrow corrupt regimes in Muslim lands have forfeited the right to call themselves Muslims and therefore deserve to die. He claims Quranic justification for his views. In fact, I am almost convinced that he has a logical interpretation of the Quran. This is also corroborated by Daaimul Islam. Ali ibn Abi Talib would give three days for an apostate to repent. If he did not, Ali would put him to death.
Hence we see indiscriminare rampage of killing mostly Muslims by al-Qaeda.
In a multicultural world, when we are in close contact with fabulous cultures spawned by other religions, why would you insist on following these ideas unquestionably?
I agree with Humsafar and Tahir. Follow no human without questioning first, no matter how mighty that human appears to be.
Would you cut off hands of a thief? This is a divinely ordained punishment as it is in the Quran.
Assuming you would follow Muhammad and Ali without question, let me quote two instances of punishments from Daaimul Islam, another book you are required to follow without question.
1. A noble woman was caught thieving and brought before Nabi Muhammad who ordered that her hand be cut off. People of Quyraysh questioned Prophet about the severity of punishment for such a small offence. Prophet replied that no one should interfere with Quranic injunction. Noblemen as well as slaves deserve the same punishment.
2. Once a certain Walid bin Uqba was brought in front of Hazrat Usman for a crime deserving a divinely ordained punishment. (I believe it was adultery). Usman, who was apparently related to Walid) declared that anyone holds that Walid desrevs punishment should carry it out. Seeing that Walid was a kin of Usman's no one moved. However, Ali ibn Abi Talib immediately delivered the appropriate punishment (lashes) with his own hands. He (Ali) said that Allah's decree should be applied equally to all whether relatives or non-relatives.
Let us expand this a bit further.
Ayman Zawahiri, the evil instructor of Usama bin Laden, believes that all the people who fail to rise up to overthrow corrupt regimes in Muslim lands have forfeited the right to call themselves Muslims and therefore deserve to die. He claims Quranic justification for his views. In fact, I am almost convinced that he has a logical interpretation of the Quran. This is also corroborated by Daaimul Islam. Ali ibn Abi Talib would give three days for an apostate to repent. If he did not, Ali would put him to death.
Hence we see indiscriminare rampage of killing mostly Muslims by al-Qaeda.
In a multicultural world, when we are in close contact with fabulous cultures spawned by other religions, why would you insist on following these ideas unquestionably?
Re: Blind Followers
Dear Hj786, can you explain in detail why one must unquestioningly follow a single human? Is it because you are not mature enough to take responsibility for the decisions you make in your own life? The people who suggest following a single human authority in all matters, religious as well as secular, are the true enemies of an open society. Progress in the modern world has happened only because individuals have been allowed to think and express their opinions without being crushed by myopic religious leaders intent to keep their flock in check.
The question of progress of the bohras should be studied in the light of general progress among Indians. Other Indian communities are also progressing, getting good jobs and good education. So one must ask, how different is the bohra progress compared to the other Indians living in similar conditions? I suspect that once you take this into account you will find that bohras are doing as well as other communities in large cities. In my experience educated bohras, even the doctors or engineers, are ignorant of even the most basic concept of what it means to be a rational human being. One only needs to read the articles and emails on Malumaat to understand that bohras will buy any pseudo-science and mumbo-jumbo if it is couched in religious language.
I am aware of the duas, madhes, marsyas, risalas written by Sayedna Taher Saifuddin. Presumptuous of you to think otherwise. Such literature has been produced by all duats throughout our history. So what is unique about it? My question to you is this: in light of modern science, technology and political theory developed in recent centuries, has any duat made an effort to create a new synthesis of these with our religious beliefs? You may not be aware of this but a major goal of earlier duats (at the time of the Imams) was to synthesis Greek learning into Ismaili belief system. Study just the table of contents of Rasail Ikhwan al-Safa and you will discover that they are an attempt to systematically integrate the then-known sciences (physical and social) into our religious belief system. The very first chapter is on the property of numbers (primes, odd/even etc.)!
Maybe it is time for you to grow out of your school-boy mode and learn to take responsibility for you own life. Try it, you may find it immensely satisfying and you will then no longer need the crutch of another persons guidance.
The question of progress of the bohras should be studied in the light of general progress among Indians. Other Indian communities are also progressing, getting good jobs and good education. So one must ask, how different is the bohra progress compared to the other Indians living in similar conditions? I suspect that once you take this into account you will find that bohras are doing as well as other communities in large cities. In my experience educated bohras, even the doctors or engineers, are ignorant of even the most basic concept of what it means to be a rational human being. One only needs to read the articles and emails on Malumaat to understand that bohras will buy any pseudo-science and mumbo-jumbo if it is couched in religious language.
I am aware of the duas, madhes, marsyas, risalas written by Sayedna Taher Saifuddin. Presumptuous of you to think otherwise. Such literature has been produced by all duats throughout our history. So what is unique about it? My question to you is this: in light of modern science, technology and political theory developed in recent centuries, has any duat made an effort to create a new synthesis of these with our religious beliefs? You may not be aware of this but a major goal of earlier duats (at the time of the Imams) was to synthesis Greek learning into Ismaili belief system. Study just the table of contents of Rasail Ikhwan al-Safa and you will discover that they are an attempt to systematically integrate the then-known sciences (physical and social) into our religious belief system. The very first chapter is on the property of numbers (primes, odd/even etc.)!
Maybe it is time for you to grow out of your school-boy mode and learn to take responsibility for you own life. Try it, you may find it immensely satisfying and you will then no longer need the crutch of another persons guidance.
Re: Blind Followers
all,
the idea of questioning a human is fine, i believe. but in the realm of islam, those who are chosen for position like that of prophet, imam and dai are not meant for questioning of the person's validity in being in that position. you are questioning not for the sake of gain knowledge, but justification of person being in that position. these are two very different things.
Allah chose the muhammad ibn abdullah to be the prophet of islam. Muhammad chose ali ibn abi talib to be his wasi, asas of imamate, and wali. Ali chose his heir to begin the chain of imamate. the imams chose their dais. the Imam tayyib chose the transfer to the dai al'mutlaq and the dai al'mutlaq chose his successor in like.
if you ask about religious learning than that is another issue.
Kalim unfortunately has been misguided in his understanding of synthesis from the root. greek teachings were formed far after the developement of ismaili thought and theology. you could say greek understanding is similar to ismaili understanding, but the teaching dais of the fatimi imams were teaching the same theology and understanding as imam jafar sadiq and the imams who composed the ikwan as'safa.
the idea of questioning a human is fine, i believe. but in the realm of islam, those who are chosen for position like that of prophet, imam and dai are not meant for questioning of the person's validity in being in that position. you are questioning not for the sake of gain knowledge, but justification of person being in that position. these are two very different things.
Allah chose the muhammad ibn abdullah to be the prophet of islam. Muhammad chose ali ibn abi talib to be his wasi, asas of imamate, and wali. Ali chose his heir to begin the chain of imamate. the imams chose their dais. the Imam tayyib chose the transfer to the dai al'mutlaq and the dai al'mutlaq chose his successor in like.
if you ask about religious learning than that is another issue.
Kalim unfortunately has been misguided in his understanding of synthesis from the root. greek teachings were formed far after the developement of ismaili thought and theology. you could say greek understanding is similar to ismaili understanding, but the teaching dais of the fatimi imams were teaching the same theology and understanding as imam jafar sadiq and the imams who composed the ikwan as'safa.
Re: Blind Followers
Another ignorant response from Spot.Originally posted by spot:
Kalim unfortunately has been misguided in his understanding of synthesis from the root. greek teachings were formed far after the developement of ismaili thought and theology. you could say greek understanding is similar to ismaili understanding, but the teaching dais of the fatimi imams were teaching the same theology and understanding as imam jafar sadiq and the imams who composed the ikwan as'safa.
You might want to trace the origins of Greek thought incorporated in Rasail Ikhawaan as-Safa. And then identify them with the teachings of Imam al-Sadiq. For instance, where in discourses of al-Sadiq do you find mention of Neoplatonic ideas of emanations like aql awwal, thani etc.?