Another SCAM??????

[Above Average Bohra]

Humsafar,

Bohras follow their beliefs and Osama his. Both are right in their own way. BTW, I never insisted on anyone's divinity.

That is simply a way of saying I am right in my own way.

The question was, do the bohras or Osama follow the quran? I never said that you insisted on anyone's divinity. Dai's post is supposed to be divinely sanctioned (with the Imam in between but he has divine sanction too) which is what you insist on maintaining. You need the Dai just like the Americans need Osama.

If you think like_minded is right, then maybe you should start following him a little bit. Give up on religion and discard the Dai as falsehood which is not needed.

[Aarif]

Humsafar,

Only a first grade idiot can agree with what LM is saying.

Let me clarify, I'm not saying that Osama's actions are right or should be condoned. But he is quite correct in acting on the dogma his religion prescribes.

Osama does not kill without reason, and personal enmity has nothing to with it. Muslims were just the collateral damage, and, I'm sure, he will find divine mercy for that in the name of the larger cause he is advancing. Jihad? I never mentioned that and feel no obligation to provide proof. Yet, proof is there for you to find.

First you said that Osama is acting as per the religion. When I ask for proof you chicken out and write back asking me to find the proof. You are the smart one who feels that religion is ritual and blah blah blah. So you need to prove your point. I am not making any claims out here so I don't have to prove anything...

A man thinks, religion could answer all his questions, without realizing that he himself is the answer to all his questions..

LM,

Only a fool will think that religion can answer all the questions. So cut the crap.

Unfortunately, most followers of all religions are always in a seeking mode, they want answers for all their questions and so rituals and customs come into existence

LM,
Again you are talking in a alien and abstract language. Maybe a genius like Humsafar can understand this crap. And I will clarify what I am saying.

First: I want to understand what Islam is all about. I have to start from somewhere...

Second: Logically I would start with quran. Quran specifies a clear "pattern" how a muslim should follow Islam. Without reading Quran and understanding it how can you understand the religion??? Also, most of the important rituals are specified by the religion...

BTW: Which important rituals of Islam E.g. namaz is man made??? Are you saying that there is no difference between the prophet and ordinary man??? If so why people call him prophet???

Also, no religious book in the world preaches you to hate others... It is the followers who draw these lines...

So again prove it to me that Islam as religion is wrong in any way and I will accept it...

Don't give me generic statements like "every one in the world is filled with spirituality etc..."

[Humsafar]

Arif,

Calling names is hardly a wise thing for someone who claims to understand "the real meaning of religion". Besides, I warned you, you need a lot of ground to cover.

Proof? I'll not be provoked into catering to your laziness. Seek and you shall find.

[Aarif]

for someone who claims to understand "the real meaning of religion".

Where did I claim that??

Besides, I warned you, you need a lot of ground to cover.

Yeah you are right. I have a lot of ground to cover in the reverse direction. Going to the caveman days and redefining the existing religions from scratch...

I remember one of your posts where you had mentioned that "if I will write a book called Furan then after 1400 years people will be fighting over it assuming it as a word of god"

Now just imagine what will happen to this world if every Tom, Dick and Humsafar starts writing holy books...

[Alislam]

It is not new that some people in every age will say that "Religion is not required" etc

Religion provdies laws that are essential for social justice.

Rules and regulations are there to be followed in every society/country for the betterment of the society.

Is there any civil society where rules are not defined ??

[Humsafar]

Arif,

Here's what you said: It is people like you who assume a lot of things in the name of religion without understanding the real meaning...

This implies you know the real meaning.

Alisalam,

Please do not confuse religion with social order and justice. Even secular organisations and governments claim to provide social justice, rules and regulations and promote the betterment of society. Besides, these rules and can and do change with time as the needs of society change.

In today's world you do not need religion to provide order, justice and security (and thank God for that). Humans have developed sophisticated institutions to take care of that. Today we need religion not to manage our worldly, temporal affairs but to help us answer the ultimate questions, to give meaning to life and universe, to show us a path to true spirituality. I believe that the temporal, worldly aspects of religions have outlived their utility. It's their spiritual, mystical core that we need to understand and take advantage of.

[Aarif]

Here's what you said: It is people like you who assume a lot of things in the name of religion without understanding the real meaning...

This implies you know the real meaning.

No it does not mean that. What it essentially means is that do you have any concrete proof to support what you are saying??? You need to understand this in the context in which I said it. I said this in response to your post where you said that "Osama is acting as per the religious dogma".

Now when you say that you are assuming that Islam allows people to kill others in the name of jihad without any reasons. And that is why I asked you for some real proof... And then what happened? You ran away didn't you??

So stop going in circles and making a fool out of yourself...

[Humsafar]

Arif,

You are quite new to this board and have a lot of catching up to do. The topic we are discussing - and the proof for which you are crying yourself hoarse - has been engaged quite a few times (and with better and sharper opponents, I might add). I do to wish to go through the same discussion again. That is why I'm brief in my responses, and urging you to search the board and go through those threads. It will save everybody's time.

[Aarif]

Humsafar,

I don't want to search the board... The reason is I am having this discussion with you and I want answers from you. I don't care what others have said in the past because those were their individual opinions. These are mine and I want answers for my questions...

And frankly if you are claiming that you had these discussions with individuals much sharper then me, then by now you should have provided me with some satisfactory answers... Handling me should have been a child's play for a genius like you.

I must admit one thing out here... You are the uncrowned sultan of spin... See how you have beautifully avoided my questions and finally when left with nothing you are asking me to search the board...

[Humsafar]

Arif, frankly I do not have the time and hardly the inclination to go through the same tedious discussion all over again. The questions you are asking are not new and have been covered already.

Thank you for the compliment, I'll add that to my resume.

[Aarif]

You could have done this long back... There was no need to waste my time either...

Thank you for the compliment, I'll add that to my resume.

Unfortunately I cannot say the same to you.

[Humsafar]

Arif, That's exactly I've been saying all along. Seek and you shall find. Now, you may have the last word.

[Aarif]

Humsafar,

I will seek what I want to find and not what you want me to find... Our discussion started because of a difference of opinion...

So lets leave it at that.

[amils]

Most men's anger about religion is as if two men should quarrel for a lady they neither of them care for.

Lord Halifax

[Above Average Bohra]

Aareef,

The proof that Humsafar wants you to find on this board does not exist. The only people who have ever tried to give proof are those that believe. The disbelivers haven't given any proof. If you search Humsafar's posts, he has clearly stated that the burden of proof is on the believers.

Besides, if religion is not needed then Humsafar should not be insisting on maintaining the post of the Dai after rooting out all the corruption. After all, isn't religion itself the biggest corruption of them all according to him? So, religion is needed, by those that believe and even by those that don't.

[Aarif]

Most men's anger about religion is as if two men should quarrel for a lady they neither of them care for.

Lord Halifax

Amils,

Religion is the human response to being alive and having to die.

Anonymous...

In fact I can post as many qoutes as you want... But the point is not that. I want to know what you think... If this is your qoute then we will talk further...

Br. Anajmi,
Agreed..

[Danish]

Originally posted by JC:
...my point is it is one's own faith and belief and that should be left personal and private.

There is no need for zareehs, qubaas, masjids, churches, temples or synagougs. Religion should be done away with and left as private affair. Spent money for the betterment of mankind, schools, hospitals, colleges, roads - and this is WELFARE too. If we help each other and minimize others sufferings and live a happy and contended life here, who says we will not have the same in life hereafter, if there is one at all. Let us worry first about what we have right now, this life and worry about life hereafter once we have excelled our lives here. For an unknown future, we are screwing our known and now present.

BRAVO! bro JC.

[like_minded]

Bro Areef,

If you think only a first grade idiot would agree with me.. well, so be it, I am not looking for any kind of support here.

Only a fool will think that religion can answer all the questions. So cut the crap.

I have said the bitter truth! isnt it?? Human minds are unstable, there is always an element of fear which keeps growing.. always a question which needs an answer.. more questions prop up, so there is a growing demand for more answers...

Primarily these questions prop up because of the fear element in humans, If humans can tackle this, which I am sure they can with the awareness of the present, then there is simply peace!!

[Humsafar]

Anajmi, you're mixing up a lot of things here. The "burden of proof" was about a different topic and context, and not about the so-called violent proclivities of the Quran. You may want to read up again.

I know it is tempting to mix up my reformist position with my personal beliefs and score cheap points, but please have some intellectual honesty and refrain from doing so.

[Aarif]

Br LM,

I am sorry for the crude language that I used in my earlier post... My whole point is that one cannot exist in isolation without a religion... No religion teaches you to hate others or disrespect others... Also, people who look for each and every answer in the religion are the ones who follow religion out of complete fear. I believe that one should fear of doing wrong based on one's judgement where things are not obvious. Because when things are not obvious then people will have different interpretations. And you will choose one of them. So you are not actually following the religion, not using your own conceince, but blindly accepting the views of the interpreter... This is where the problem comes into picture... Today followers of Syedna will believe whatever he says... Now that does not mean that it is sanctioned by Islam. Ideally they should use their own senses and judgement... But they will not do so because of the fear of going against the appointed Dai...

Hence, saying that Islam is all about outdated rituals is unfair... Probably I can agree about haj as I also do not see any point in heards of people going to haj every year... But namaz,Quran and ramzaan... If these followed in the right sense brings a GRT decipline and satisfaction in life. Again this is my personal experience and opnion... So saying that these are mere rituals and useless in modern times is unacceptable by all means... Atleast I think that way..

[amils]

Convulated words ----one wonders if they lead to anything----other then to escape with a mask on.

[Aarif]

Convulated words ----one wonders if they lead to anything----other then to escape with a mask on.

----for some thoughts stumble over words.

[Danish]

Originally posted by Aareef:
No religion teaches you to hate others or disrespect others...

All religions are created to do just that. Islam (Quran & Sunnah) vividly declares, confessess and subjugates all other religious denominations as "kafirs" and deliberately enforces wanton rules down their throats all in the name of a fathomless supreme deity whom no one on earth has any idea about.

Hence, saying that Islam is all about outdated rituals is unfair... Probably I can agree about haj as I also do not see any point in heards of people going to haj every year... But namaz,Quran and ramzaan... If these followed in the right sense brings a GRT decipline and satisfaction in life. Again this is my personal experience and opnion... So saying that these are mere rituals and useless in modern times is unacceptable by all means... Atleast I think that way..

Islam, like all other religions, certainly consists of not only outdated and meaningless dogmatic rituals but many unprecedented commands in the Quran as well that has no basis in our times.

[porus]

Do you need religion?

For now, I will define religion loosely as one of the major belief systems, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Judaism etc.

If you profess to be a Muslim, you obviously do not need any of the other religions. How about Islam? Say you are in streets of London and you can do most anything that another person in London can do, like go shopping, raise your children, go to school etc. In this situation, what would a Muslim do? He is allowed not to eat pork, he is allowed to go to Masjid of his choice, he is allowed to beat his breasts etc. But you can do this, even if you do not care for Islam. You obviously do not need Islam to do anything that a Muslim does? You can beat your wife, you can follow Sayedna and everything. But do you need Islam for that? No.

Say you are alone and it is time for Maghrib namaaz. Do you need to offer prayers? No. Unless of course you accept that a jealous God is watching over you and will consign you everlasting hell if you did not offer them. Tell that to a Hindu or a Christian. However, you can both agree to thank God, if both of you believe in him. You can choose Christian way or a Sikh way to offer prayer. Unless you think only your God accepts your prayer, a result of infantile brainwashing.

So, ask again, "Do I need religion". The answer is no. Do I need Islam? No. Do I need Christianity? NO. Do I need atheism? No.

[Aarif]

Danish,

Try and understand what I am saying... I have clearly mentioned that you need to use your own judgement and sensibility at times... E.g. The extremists justify wife-beating based on ayat from Quran. If true will you beat your wife??? You will not unless you are insane... So the bottom line is imbibe the best from the religion and use your judgement when in doubt...

Tell me one good reason why a person should not pray namaz???

BTW: Christians hate jews more then muslims hate them. They call them christ killers... You know what the Nazis did with jews don't you???

Just blaming Islam for everything is a marketing gimmick used by the powerful western media and people like you easily fall for that...

If Christanity teaches peace then why we had two world wars in less then a century from today??? The main participating countries were Christian countries... What happened at that time?? They forgot about Christ?? Also, you know what Gen Dyer did at Jalianwalla bagh??? He was also a christian.. And again terrorism by Islamic countries is the outcome of Western politics.

Osama and other Talebanis were trained by America to fight against Soviet Union...

Some of the missiles that Saddam used in gulf war were purchased from US...

The Hindus destroyed Babri masjid recently.. What happened in Ahemedabad?? What happened in Gujarat???

The point is what has religion got to do with all this... Also, Quran does say that following Islam is the only way to heaven... However, it does not give you the permission to kill others because they do not follow Islam...

Remember that Mughals ruled India for centuries.. Except Aurangazeb all other rulers were secular... If they would not have been secular India would have been a muslim country today because they would have eliminated all the Hindus...

The image of a particular religion in the eyes of others depends a lot on the actions of its followers. And if this is true for Muslims it has to be true for everyone else.

So tell me which religion is perfect by all means??? If not then what's the harm in following Islam with your senses in place...

[amils]

Islam Amils ----whats in a name save a drunken need to belong in here and the hereafter.

[Aarif]

Br. Porus,

AS

Lets go by your theory.. We do not need any religion.. And no religion actually makes sense... We can live without going to church or mosque or Synagogue etc... We do whatever you mentioned in your post...

Now my 2 cents:

All this makes sense when we only think in worldly terms... But all religions talk about life after death... What happens to that? Also, if what you are saying is true why did god send prophets??? He could have instilled this basic intelligence in man where they would have known about him by default... He would have programmed human beings with default settings and that's it... Don't you think that would have been the best way to make sure that everybody follows only one god and does not ever get confused???

The point that I am trying to make is that religion helps you to reach to god... It is the bridge between human and almighty... Different religions are different bridges... Without using anyone of them you cannot reach him. So well if you think about worldly matters then yes it is allright not to follow any religion... But what happens after your soul leaves your body??? We have two words "Deen and Duniya" See deen comes before duniya...

Now you are saying that man can reach god without using any of these bridges??? How?? Will he build one in air??

[amils]

----are they prophets or loss ?

[Aarif]

I know one thing for sure. Kothari "Amils" are definitely a big time loss

[porus]

Areef,

How do you think religion helps you to reach God?

Do you think that it is done through rituals like namaaz etc.?

I think not. Most enlightened people found God before thet were 'religious'. Was Buddha a Buddhist before he got enlightenment? Was Jesus a Christian?

Enlightenment experiences happen in most odd circumstances. Extreme pain, imminent death, sudden encounter with beauty, music etc.

Despite what religions tell you, no one knoes what happens after deasth. Prophets did not know either.

Be honest and you will find that the need for religion is simply the need to belong to a tribe. If you accept that and follow tribal rituals you will be fine.

Our community does not suffer problems from religion. They suffer owing to iniquitous social organization. If justice was done and seen to be done, then no one would have problem if the person ruling us claimed he was God incarnate. We can all live with that fiction to oil the smooth running of the organization.

What does it matter if Imam exists or not? What does it matter if Dai is infallible and talks to Imam in secret? The only reason you need them is that you want to be part of rituals like marriage, burial etc. You do not need any religion to belong to a tribe.

Search for spirituality is available and religions are a hindrance to that search.