Pearls from Waaz

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#61

Unread post by Alislam » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:45 am

so better accept the present Dai is haqq and that is the right path. Also same to Hussain_KSA

I will accept present dai to be haqq, only when he follows the path shown by prophet(saw) and his Ahlebait.

If you go through various articles on this board or talk to bohris worldwide, majority will agree that corruption is at peak within the system.

The so called royals do not work for their living and thrive on the money of gullible bohras.

Why they have to live a royal life and called themselves shahzadas/is..which kingdom do they have..

compare their lives with any of the previous dais or imams and you'll find the difference.

why syedna visits only rich people and needs so much money and why confer titles by taking money from rich bohras, without even minding the source of their income.

Everything in the system revolves around money :
Titles, seating in masjid, raza for anything.

The list can go on and on

Its not that you guys do not know the answers, but i suppose you are those who are a beneficiary of the loot and justify everything.

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#62

Unread post by truemumin » Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:28 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alislam:
[qb]

I will accept present dai to be haqq, only when he follows the path shown by prophet(saw) and his Ahlebait.

If you go through various articles on this board or talk to bohris worldwide, majority will agree that corruption is at peak within the system.

The so called royals do not work for their living and thrive on the money of gullible bohras.

Why they have to live a royal life and called themselves shahzadas/is..which kingdom do they have..

compare their lives with any of the previous dais or imams and you'll find the difference.

why syedna visits only rich people and needs so much money and why confer titles by taking money from rich bohras, without even minding the source 1. Do you have more wisdom to follow ahle bait compared to Aqa Maula ?

2. Don't blame without statistics that majority of bohras are not satisfied with the system. If they are not satisfied then Dawat today will not be so thriving. Infact most bohras are satisfied with Aqa Maula. Obviously some peoples, aamils, khidmat guzars are corrupt and always go for money but that has nothing to do with religion or Aqa Maula. That happens when you run a big system. You cannot have 100% perfect peoples around you and due to reasons you even have to let them in. In Rasulaallah's zaman also there were so many. Infact you should accept ehsaan of an aamil sahab that infact he guides you to religion. Who cares about money when it is about religion. Or you accept that you care more about money compared to religion

3. Also please dont blame others of the loot etc. You dont know me. Dont blame without evidence

Your peoples just talk around money but you dont see what Syedna Malik have done for religion. I care a damn about money and whatever i spend for Dai gives me more returns automatically but still i dont give it for this reason. I care about relgion and thats my motive is. Why not you throw just a word of appreciation about Maula's religious guidance. Maula is best example of religion which even many non bohras accepts

By the way, when money is collected it is widely spent also. You always pinpoint negatives but not willing to appreciate anything positive. Today i see many many peoples give money by themselves

And yes this is kingdom because Imam is the king and Dai is rep. And Imam has authorized Dai to proceed with this Kingdom in his absence. If you question Dai then indirectly you question Imam

Dai has to run the dunya system also aparts from religion. And without money it cannot run. I repeat that some of the khidmat guzars are corrupt also and takes benefit from money but that does not mean that you create doubts about syedna malik

Hussain_KSA
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#63

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:15 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by omabharti:
[QB]Br. Hussain
Salaams
You mentioned that you are of Yamani origin Indian.
Can I deduce from this statement that somewhere you might have some linkage to the Royal family?

Brother Omabharti,

My forefathers migrated from Yemen to serve in armed forces of Nizam II of Hyderabad (Deccan) and they get settled in India. Alhamdolillah I have no linkage with the so called Royal family. Neither the present leader has any linkage or blood relation from Yemen.

There is a tomb of Mullah Vali bhai Shaheed in Aurangabad. He got the title of Mulla when he was just 21 years old due to his religious qualification and devotion towards dawat. (that time the titles were not for sold) this is something which the evil activist of Jamat did not like. They hired a killer to assassinate mullah Vali Bhai Shaheed. His father syedi Jeevanji was quite depressed and heartbroken over the news of martyrdom of Vali Bhai. He reported the incident to 43rd Syedna Abde Ali Saifuddin. Syedna Abdeli asked him to remarry. Syedi Jeevanji was 60 years old but he obeyed the orders of Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin. He married to daughter of Mullah bawa khan whose progeny reached to Syedi Fakhruddin Shaheed and Raja Bharmal linage. Syedi Jeevanji got two sons from this marriage. He offered both the sons in service of Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin.

Syedna Abdeli Saifuddin has declare the nus upon Syedi Abdulqadir but his untime death gave chance to opposition make fun. Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin told them that Imam ul Zaman will guide him about his successor. That time his son Badruddin (46th Sydena) was just five years old. At the time of his death Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin declare nus upon Mohammed Izzuddin son of Syedi Jeevanji (44th Syedna) than Syedna Izzudin declare nus upon his brother Tayeb Zainuddin son of Syedi Jeevanji (45th Sydena) Sydna Tayeb zainuddin declare nus upon Sydna Badruddin (46th Sydena son of Abdeali Saifuddin). Sydna Badruddin was 26 years old when he took the position of Syedna and later within four year he was murdered by poisoning. (Here begun the controversy of Nus) Syedna Abdulqader Nujmuddin bin Syedna Tayeb Zainuddin became 47th Sydena. Syedna Abdulqader Najmuddin decalare nus upon his brother Syedna Abdul Hussain Hussamuddin (48th Sydna). He declare Nus upon another son of Syedna Abdulqadir Najmuddin Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin 49th Syedna and father of Syedna Tahersaifuddin. Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin declare Nus upon Sydena Abdullah Badruddin son of Syedna Abdul hussain Hussamuddin.
Syedna Abdullah Badruddin declare nus upon his son Syedi Tayyeb who was Mukasir – e- Dawat. History repeated itself and Syedi Tayyeb was also murdered by poisoning. Syedna Abdullah Badruddin was quite depressed over the death of his beloved son and mansoos syedi Tayyeb. He died within one and half year later. Here emerged Syedna Taher Saifuddin (51th) and the scenario changed.

So, now you can conclude that the present leaders have no direct or blood relation with the any previous dai of Yeman.
From 46 to 50th Dai they used to write the world Dai ul Mustauda but the 51th declare himself dai ul Mutlaq (with absolute powers), God on earth ect. The story goes on and much of them has been discussed in this forum earliar.

No need to write anything about the 52nd leader as every one knows about it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by omabharti:
[QB]Br. Hussain
It takes time people to understand when you said
"YOUR ENGLISH IS POOR" :)

I really mean it.

Hussain_KSA
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#64

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:18 am

Originally posted by truemumin:
I assume you don't have any concrete answers to all these discussions that we had, so better accept the present Dai is haqq and that is the right path. Also same to Hussain_KSA[/QB]
OK sir

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#65

Unread post by truemumin » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:24 am

Originally posted by Hussain_KSA:
Originally posted by omabharti:
[QB]Br. Hussain
Salaams

No need to write anything about the 52nd leader as every one knows about it.
Sorry to jump into but just one point. No offence but Yemeni peoples were commenting on Dai and questioning him on everything (same like you are doing), infact nafarmani, and thats why Dawat shifted to Hindustan. Thats a religious fact and everybody knows about it

Hussain_KSA
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#66

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:11 am

Originally posted by truemumin:
He accepted shahadat because aurangzed wanted him to accept that he is ragzi ....[/QB]
True word is "Rafzi" or Rafdi ( رافضى) which means the one who denies. This terminology is was being used by Aurangzeb and his like minded against bohras and shias on the allegations that they are denying or refusing the true Islamic principals.

Brother Porus may confirmed this.

Thanks

Hussain_KSA
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#67

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:16 am

Originally posted by truemumin:
Originally posted by Hussain_KSA:
Sorry to jump into but just one point. No offence but Yemeni peoples were commenting on Dai and questioning him on everything (same like you are doing), infact nafarmani, and thats why Dawat shifted to Hindustan. Thats a religious fact and everybody knows about it
It was Zaidi Shia (fivers) the followers of the Son Zaid bin Imam Ali (Zainul Abedeen) bin Hussain who were making trouble for the Dawat, Yemeni bohras were very loyal and their loyalty is recorded in history. The same Zaidians were behind killing of Imam Amir and Dai Yahya bin lamak which forced the Dai ul Balagh (Chief pontiff) Hurratul Maleka (Arawa) to take Imam Tayyeb in hiding and declaring Syedna Zoeb as first Dai ul Mutlak.

Thanks

Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#68

Unread post by Alislam » Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:53 pm

And yes this is kingdom because Imam is the king and Dai is rep. And Imam has authorized Dai to proceed with this Kingdom in his absence. If you question Dai then indirectly you question Imam

It this were to true, what do you have to say about the previous dais who lead a very astute and pious life.

They also could have used(misused) the community money and spent on themselves.

Their kith and kin could have called themselves shahzadas and shahzadees.

All their religious affairs could have revolved around money ('cause, money is important in every age and time).

They could have demanded money for titles, kadam, etc.

You just cannot get away by saying some in the system are corrupt.

I'm yet to come across any Aamil or Bhaisahab or anyone who is not money minded and is away from this tyrannical plunder of ordinary bohras.

Money is imp. to run the system BUT not for personal lavishes.

Ali, when he was a khalifa had enormous wealth which he could have used for living a lavish life, But everyone knows how he lived.

Person denying all this and on top of it justifying it has to be a beneficiary of the tyranny..It does not take big brains to figure it out.

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#69

Unread post by truemumin » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:22 pm

Originally posted by Alislam:
And yes this is kingdom because Imam is the king and Dai is rep. And Imam has authorized Dai to proceed with this Kingdom in his absence. If you question Dai then indirectly you question Imam

It this were to true, what do you have to say about the previous dais who lead a very astute and pious life.

They also could have used(misused) the community money and spent on themselves.

Their kith and kin could have called themselves shahzadas and shahzadees.

All their religious affairs could have revolved around money ('cause, money is important in every age and time).

They could have demanded money for titles, kadam, etc.

You just cannot get away by saying some in the system are corrupt.

I'm yet to come across any Aamil or Bhaisahab or anyone who is not money minded and is away from this tyrannical plunder of ordinary bohras.

Money is imp. to run the system BUT not for personal lavishes.

Ali, when he was a khalifa had enormous wealth which he could have used for living a lavish life, But everyone knows how he lived.

Person denying all this and on top of it justifying it has to be a beneficiary of the tyranny..It does not take big brains to figure it out.
I understand that when dawat have money then zamanay kay hisaab say high standard rakhna parta hai. And one should be happy about it. When there was not enough wealth then at that time they were living like that or some other hikmats. It is foolishness that you have lot of money and you wear torn off clothes and dont keep a good outlook. When Imams ruled egypt, do you think at that time imams were wearing torn off clothes and leading a low life

It is Maula Ali's farmaan that if you have money you must spend it (ofcourse not fazool kharchi) otherwise it would be a kufr to allah's nemat. And Maula teaches us the same. even if you see our jaman system it is the habit to finish all jaman from the thaal unlike non bohra or non muslims who waste so much jaman

allbird
Posts: 607
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#70

Unread post by allbird » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:19 am

Originally posted by Safiuddin:
Since your Moula is God on Earth, The Imaam's Personal Consultant and the The Haqeeqi and Living Kaaba, it would make sense that you would believe that he has powers.
Well, then, could you ask him to use his powers to resolve the following:

1. Disease, famine, and starvation in Africa and elsewhere
2. Poverty and depression among Bohris all over the world
3. The Iraq War and the exploitation of its people
4. Global warming
5. The results of the American presidential elections
6. The return of endangered animals that he has butchered
7. The fall in global economies
8. The cure for cancer
9. Prediction of the future
10. Negotiate peace between Israel and Palestine
11. Make me lose 20 pounds. . . . .OK, OK, that's a pretty tall order, I'll settle for 15 lbs.

And if you could tell us which powers he's used lately, and for what purposes, that would be helpful. Also, do his powers extend to his sheherezaadas and sheherezaadis? Or do they enjoy lesser powers? Are they also ruhaani?
I don't know what you smoke but sure its GOOD STUFF. Is it part of your weight loss program ???

Yes GOD Allah (SWT) can do all this. No PROBLEMS AT ALL. All you have to do Doa to him. Aka Moula (TUS) mission is ONLY to lead us towards HIM. You can but even ask Asgarbhai Engineer too can do it. Who know Allah(SWT) may listen and eliminate decease and poverty from the whole world on his request.

;)

allbird
Posts: 607
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#71

Unread post by allbird » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:20 am

Originally posted by Muslim First:
Many mojezas are there for nabi, imam and dai.
The greatest mojeza of your Imam is his hiding. If he so powerful then why is he permitting exploitation of Bohras?

I do not buy a single mojeza of your Dai.
.
DON'T worry we are selling any !!!!!! :D :D :D :D

allbird
Posts: 607
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#72

Unread post by allbird » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:21 am

Originally posted by AlBird:
Originally posted by Muslim First:
The greatest mojeza of your Imam is his hiding. If he so powerful then why is he permitting exploitation of Bohras?

I do not buy a single mojeza of your Dai.
.
DON'T worry we are NOT selling any !!!!!! :D :D :D :D

allbird
Posts: 607
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#73

Unread post by allbird » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:32 am

Originally posted by Safiuddin:
Jayanti I feel that MuslimFirst has raised some important points. Burhanuddin retells Karbala as if he had personally been there and speaks of events in Karbala as if The Prophet's Family had personally given him an eyewitness account - and only he has it in his private papers.

Much of what is in these sermons does not appear to have historical accuracy. Based on what this man and his family have done in the past, I find it difficult to believe anything they say.
Saifu Saifu Saifu when will you understand all. Have you been to Karbala ?, ever wish to go there ?. Listen to this Waaz from anyone, either Aka Moula (TUS) or Shia or just read Sahadat on net and then go there. I am sure all your questions will be answered even after 1400 years.

Now don't tell me next that Khan-e-Kaaba was built by Saudi government as tourist attraction.

allbird
Posts: 607
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#74

Unread post by allbird » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:58 am

Originally posted by omabharti:
"By the way, many mojezaas of burhanuddin maula are seen by peoples by themselves. For example one bilnd person started seeing, recently one dumb child started speaking. I think he was dumb by birth. There are countless mojezaas"
then why does he has to go Germany for treatments, why can not he do MOJIZA on him and improve his health andextend his life ta Qayamat so Bohras do not have to recite the anthem all the time
Omaben, don't mind me but can you tell me how OLD are you. Just checking your maturity.

allbird
Posts: 607
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#75

Unread post by allbird » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:25 am

Originally posted by omabharti:
Jayanti
Why you come on this board, go to your Malumaat message board.
Did you get RAZA to come here.
Oma ben Jawaab do Jawaab do, we demand Jawaab do !!!!!!

makberi
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#76

Unread post by makberi » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:45 am

truemumin, Maula Ali said to spend it on the poor and needy....not on oneself and one's family members.....the syedna roams in lavish cars...goes arnd the worl collecting hefty salaams while many poor bohras jus manage to scrap a living.....

a few weeks back syedna visited a bohra house for kadambosi in kenya.....it was intresting that malumaat.com had also posted pictures of the beach side house in which the sheikh lived in where syedna visited.....was that the reason y syedna went to his house....becuz he was filthy rich to afford such a big house in a beautiful location......there was no reference to wat the sheikh had done to the community .....

the fact that malumaat.com was showing off the house like that shows the level of materialism in our society.....and we claim to be followers of Maula Ali

Safiuddin
Posts: 546
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#77

Unread post by Safiuddin » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:45 am

Brainwashed people will believe what they want. even in the face of clear and obvious exploitation and atrocities, there are people who still believe that Burhanuddin and his cult are second to God, and they should be accorded their lavish lifestyles (at Bohri expense).

If it's keeping up with the Joneses that is fueling the TUS and Family to excess, tax fraud, and countless other heinous acts, then they have no business or right trying to manipulate and take advantage of people's spiritual beliefs all in the name of Islam - which, incidentally, they have no concept of.

Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#78

Unread post by Alislam » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:01 am

It is foolishness that you have lot of money and you wear torn off clothes and dont keep a good outlook. When Imams ruled egypt, do you think at that time imams were wearing torn off clothes and leading a low life

--- Fatimi imams did not extort money from their people. They ruled with justice and were very progressive.

No wonder so many different sciences flourished during their regime.

They built universities, hospitals, social system for the well being of people (unlike the present regime which does nothing for the poor).

It is Maula Ali's farmaan that if you have money you must spend it (ofcourse not fazool kharchi) otherwise it would be a kufr to allah's nemat. .

Do not ascribe lies to Maula Ali in order to justify your kothari thugs.

Go and read Nahjul Balagha (oh, you would need Raza for reading this)and see what he writes in a sermon to his Governors on "How to Rule".

No one would object if you spend money which you have earned yourself.

Tell me who from the administrative and ruling kothari earns his living and is not a parasite to the community money.

Money extorted from gullibles on every occasion from cradle to grave is not their hard earned money and they should be accountable for this.
It is not meant for thier lavishes.

You say "Syedna is gaib na jannar"..can you tell me what happens to his wisdom when so many atrocities are taking place..

while visiting a rich bohri house for kadam or ziafat (after negotiating a high amount)does he not know that he is also supposed to visit poor bohris houses too..what is stopping him from doing this..or he is not aware that there are poor among his followers.

I know of many filthy rich bohris who do syedna ziafat and are quite disconnected from deen..Habitual drinkers, illegal businesses, etc..

where does syedna's wisdom go in such cases..

The list is very lengthy...

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#79

Unread post by truemumin » Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:59 am

Tell me one thing. What are you going to do with your "hard earned" money. Take it to the God and tell him, hey god, take me inside heaven because i have so much money??? And i tell you what, guaranteed you will be kicked out. Or will you take your money into your grave ?

How much Maula asks from you? Does he asks for your full lifetime savings?? Zakat etc. is what everybody have to pay as per shariat. Other things are optional or minimal. Peoples give more and more by their own will because they have faith on Maula

Actually you are jealous of those peoples who have lot of money but still they spend so much more money on Maula + deen ni khidmat. Many peoples give specific hefty sums for jaman, making masjids, making zarihs, musafirkahana, making roads to ziarats etc. Even the poor like to contribute whatever they can and nobody forces them. The building of new road to Syedna Hatim was being contributed by an individual Bohri from Gulf. There are countless khidmats which peoples do for religion and this is for the sake of religion but you peoples take it negatively

By the way, zaifat khidmat guzars ki bhi hoti hai har dafa. And salaam bhi hota hai. Araz bhi hoti hai. Most of these khidmat guzars are poor like burhani guards and various khidmat committee members, shabab etc. If you don't have money then do some deen ni khidmat and you get equal chances

I know one couple, they are very ordinary bohras. Not enough money. But they got sharaf of nikah on the hands of Aqa Maula through balloting. gareeb log bhi mehroom nahi rehtay. Maula ka ehsaan hai

Why you don't see these things

May i ask again (third time in this forum) why not a word of appreciation from any of you about Aqa Maula's religious service to Bohras. Everybody knows our perfection of religion matters

humble_servant_us
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#80

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:32 am

[QUOTE]Zakat etc. is what everybody have to pay as per shariat. Other things are optional or minimal. /[QUOTE]

Its good that you accept that Zakat is only as per shariat, rest is optional or minimal.

If so is the case, why is Sabil, Jaman Hoob, Najwa, etc made compulsory. You may argue that it is minimal, but the point is however minimal it could be it cannot be compulsory. If you are not aware about this then fyi if you do not pay your sabil etc you are not given a safai chitti and offically not a part of community. You cannot even visit the pilgrim places as a Bohra.

On more thing Zakat depends upon a person's income /earnings, so why a pre-fixed amound is decided and bargained on. Why cannot it be left on the discretion of individual to pay honestly.

Moreover during the time of Ali(as) there was a transparency on baitul maal, why is it not there nowadays. With all technology support I think it is more easier to become transparent now than those times. Further to add if you give zakat/khums to any shia/sunni organisation , you have all the visibility in their accounts as where and how they spend the money.

If there are two persons Mr.X and Mr.Y, both of them collect Zakat money but X shows no transparency while Y does, whom would you give your money. Common sense says Y, though the probability of X and Y cheating or being honest is equally same, but with Y has a slight edge more on X as he is disclosing his accounts.

Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#81

Unread post by Alislam » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:48 am

Tell me one thing. What are you going to do with your "hard earned" money. Take it to the God and tell him, hey god, take me inside heaven because i have so much money??? And i tell you what, guaranteed you will be kicked out. Or will you take your money into your grave ?

--- What else can one expect from a brainwashed guy..A lot of things can be done with hard earned money..It can be used for good purposes like poor child education, donation for an educational institute/hospital/orphanage/widows etc..These things are beyond comprehension for some people..

For sure, my hard money money will not become a tool for some royal's lavishes.

How much Maula asks from you? Does he asks for your full lifetime savings?? Zakat etc. is what everybody have to pay as per shariat. Other things are optional or minimal. Peoples give more and more by their own will because they have faith on Maula

You must be kidding when you say, how much the kothar asks to pay..Money is extracted right from child birth (even unborn are not exempted),misaq, marriage, Ramadan, Moharram, Milads, Miqaats, darees, ziafats, constructions, various other salaams during razas, exorbitant sabeels and even after death.

Majority have to pay by force and very few who pay by themselves are the ones who are a part of the system and do it for their personal benefits and not due to any faith in maula.

By the way, zaifat khidmat guzars ki bhi hoti hai har dafa. And salaam bhi hota hai. Araz bhi hoti hai. Most of these khidmat guzars are poor like burhani guards and various khidmat committee members, shabab etc. If you don't have money then do some deen ni khidmat and you get equal chances

Are you so dumb that you do not understand what i meant by poor and underpriveleged..

Answer me why MONEY should be the criteria for ziafat or kadam or for any thing.


I know one couple, they are very ordinary bohras. Not enough money. But they got sharaf of nikah on the hands of Aqa Maula through balloting. gareeb log bhi mehroom nahi rehtay. Maula ka ehsaan hai

You see how difficult it is to show that Aqa Maula takes care of the gareeb too..

One in a thousand case this will happen and fools like you are made to believe that Maula ka ehsaan...bakwas

May i ask again (third time in this forum) why not a word of appreciation from any of you about Aqa Maula's religious service to Bohras. Everybody knows our perfection of religion matters

What perfection of religion are you talking about..Value system is taught and perfected by the various dais and imams and pl.do not give credit for all this to the present regime..In fact the present regime is hell bent upon destroying the values that bohras have inherited and carried for centuries...

The learnings have been stopped, knowledge is given a back seat, money is everything, lies & deceit are order of the day.

Present day Bohras are brainwashed and deprived of Islamic knowledge and that is the reason you see topi/dadhi orthodox bohras in gatherings of Isna Asheris and zakir Naik lectures (Who praises yezid in his lecture).

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#82

Unread post by truemumin » Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:37 am

This is only your thought. Present day bohras are far more educated compared to previous zaman and even religiously much more educated. Even one school system has been started in various cities of the world which runs on cambridge system and the quality of education is very good
By the way, if you think dhadhi is senseless then you don't know religion at all. You just say all these things because you dont like them. but religion will not change for you. You have to change for religion

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#83

Unread post by truemumin » Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:50 am

1. Mister. Jaman khanay jaatay ho to kuch contribution nahi karo gay kiya if you can. Nobody ask for fix amount. By the way, i know you might not believe, i forgot to pay jaman hoob this moharram because nobody asked me for
All the other payments you think are bakwaas but possibly neccessary by religion and possibly also required to run an organization.
Dai ka zamana to abhi bhi satar ka zamana hai. If imam gets zahoor then you will have to pay lot more. But then probably you will also be saying all ths stuff to Imam-uz-zamaan

2. Zakat amount. That depends on aamil. Before i was living in subcontinent. I used to pay fixed amount justified by aamil but still i think i never paid what i deserved. Now in gulf i always pay whatever is justified. Aamil Sahab just recommends but never forced me. It depends on aamil and his wisdom. Still it is to make "you" clean. Because if you dont pay zakat with the amount religiously meant for then obviously you have to pay it in other ways by allah's will. And many peoples in sub-continent usually dont pay zakaat in full. My example is there

3. When you give zakaat to raza na sahib you must trust him. You cannot ask him religiously how he spends. Thats not right
If religious leader disclosed his accounts and answer you or ask you where he need spend will he be called a spiritual leader ? You are abde-allah so you have to become abde-syedna because syedna malik is Rep of allah via Dai and imam

Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#84

Unread post by Alislam » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:02 pm

"Dawat have built many schools, hospitals, eduational institutes etc. + religious things. Perhaps you are without brains. Hundred of thousand of peoples cannot be brainwashed"

whatever construction happens is mainly due to the money contribued(extracted) from local jamaats..In fact there will be a huge gap between the money collected and actual money spent.

After construction, iftetah requires a salaam of crores of rupees which is again a burden on people.

One can hardly count the schools, hospitals or institutes and compare those with what other Ismaili brothers (khojas) are doing..Syedna is nowhere near to what Aga Khan is doing for his people.

Money is not extracted. These are charges which are taken and which are neccessary o/wise without money how do you run an organization. And whatever peoples pay them by willing pay them due to trust on Maula, not due to personal benefits. This is only your thought

You are in a fools paradise, my friend..Bohras across the globe discuss in jaman thals or in diff. gatherings, how they were forced to pay money everytime..So this is not my thought but a general thought of bohras globally.

Poor and unpreviliged cannot do khidmat? Even in imam's time whenever peoples used to come to meet they always bring hadyas to imam. Whats the problem in that

Getting gift out of free will is different from being coerced.Hope you know the diff.

Imams never discriminated people based on their financial strengths..
You are changing the basic tenets of Islam.."Rich or Poor, white or black, healthy or weak" ...

There should'nt be any discrimination atleast from a religious head.

By the way, if you think dhadhi is senseless then you don't know religion at all. You just say all these things because you dont like them. but religion will not change for you. You have to change for religion

where did i say dhadi is senseless ??
Read properly what i have written.
I mentioned orthodox bohras (topi/dhadi walas in quami libas) are so much deprived of knowledge that they attend shia majlises and also Zakir Naik lectures with the hope to learn something, which they are missing in so called sabaks.

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#85

Unread post by truemumin » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:49 pm

1. If you just compare then why not you become a chiristian or a jew. They do more charity then anybody else. If somebody do charity just to attract peoples will it be right and you will join them? change your religion ?
What Aga Khan is doing for religion? He has even changed the religion. Go and ask any aga khani about their religious beliefs. Give money and namaaz maaf. give money and roza maaf. This is what their religious belief is. And do you know how much money they have to pay to their jamaats? I know aga khani system well because i had aga khani friends in school

You are in a fools paradise, my friend..Bohras across the globe discuss in jaman thals or in diff. gatherings, how they were forced to pay money everytime..So this is not my thought but a general thought of bohras globally

Again it is upto ones mind. Somebody's heart is big some is small. But everybody wants to pay and be in mainstream. And again it depends on each aamil sahab and his individual attitude. If you have problem with an aamil sahab you must not consider Dai as same. I have seen many many many peoples paying so much by their own will. Obviously religion and strength of faith is different with everybody. See your own self

If you have problem with evil 1, 2 and 3 and many others you will not blame rasuallah for that. Or do you????????

Getting gift out of free will is different from being coerced.Hope you know the diff.

Imams never discriminated people based on their financial strengths..
You are changing the basic tenets of Islam.."Rich or Poor, white or black, healthy or weak" ...
There should'nt be any discrimination atleast from a religious head.


I dont accept your argument. Maula never discriminates peoples based on wealth. May i ask you one question. Suppose you are a very rich man, but your heart is not clear. You do salaam to maula, even give precious hadya to maula and maula accepts that to keep your heart, will you become No.1 in entering jannat. This is wrong perception my friend

where did i say dhadi is senseless ??
Read properly what i have written.
I mentioned orthodox bohras (topi/dhadi walas in quami libas) are so much deprived of knowledge that they attend shia majlises and also Zakir Naik lectures with the hope to learn something, which they are missing in so called sabaks.
[/QB][/QUOTE]

See your words. "Orthodox bohras (top/dhadhi walas)". What is the meaning of that? It shows your personal grudge against topi and dhadhi. And the bohras which go to shia majlis are religiously illeterate bohras and when they get religious knowledge they understand and never go. It depends on one's ownself. You cannot imply this to all bohras. And nobody deprived bohras of knowledge. Today so many bohras learn religion you could not imagine that in previous zamans. I believe, indeed, it is most easy to learn religion and attend sabaqs today then before. Even so many young children today are hafiz-e-quran ( do you know how many hafiz-e-quran are in aga khanis?). But obviously the guy like you cannot understand this because you have a negative mindset

Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#86

Unread post by Alislam » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:22 pm

I dont accept your argument. Maula never discriminates peoples based on wealth.

If discrimination is not based on wealth, your Maula should go to poor's houses for ziafat.
How can even a middle class pay lakhs of rupees for ziafat?

May i ask you one question. Suppose you are a very rich man, but your heart is not clear. You do salaam to maula, even give precious hadya to maula and maula accepts that to keep your heart, will you become No.1 in entering jannat. This is wrong perception my friend

It is reflecting here how educated people like you can be brainwashed..what has salaam or hadya got to do with going to jannat.
It is one's Aamal that will decide the fate and not salaams or ziafats..

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#87

Unread post by truemumin » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:28 pm

Then what ziafat has to do with going to jannat? Maula ki mohabbat dil main ho to bhi aadmi jannat main hi jaye ga.
For hajj also lot of money has to be spent. so as per your logic you will not have respect for khana-e-kaaba saying kay "kharcha bohot hota hai". Allah koi aisa system kiyoon nahi banata kay gareeb log free main wings laga kay khana-e-kaaba pohonch jayein

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#88

Unread post by Aarif » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:47 pm

brother TrueMumin

AS

My two cents..

According to you everything that is done by the dai and his administration popularly known as Kothar is justified. It is the only truth and one has to accept it unconditionally as a true dawoodi bohra or as a true mumin like you.

However before accepting anything as truth and nothing but truth we need to carefully analyze the source. What is the source of your knowledge about dawoodi bohra beliefs in Dai, his office and Mithaq. It is nothing but whatever you have been hearing in waez, majlis etc. from local amils and occasionally from the Dai himself. Now the people who run the local administration will obviously sell you the concept of Dai and Imam keeping their selfish motive in mind. Most of us do not have any access to the authentic Fatimid literature that governs the function of Dai and his office. The point that I am trying to make out here is regarding the source of our information. The authenticity of the source itself is doubtful.

However, if you have read the original literature than I am sure you will find a lot of differences in the way things are mentioned in those books as compared to the way they are performed in reality because no book on religion will promote amassing of extreme wealth at the expense of community for personal gains.

Syedna is like a father figure for the bohras. He is the head of the community. He can lay down effective policies that will make our community number 1 among other communities. He can control corruption in Kothar. The good thing about our community is that we have a central administration system. This means that funds can be channelised effectively to achieve the greater good. The kothar should collect more money from those who have the power to pay and use that money to help those who are in great need of the same. This way the community can really progress much much more than it has already done.

Using Syedna as a trump card for collecting money from the community for personal gains and that to in the name of religion is definitely unacceptable.
Dai ka zamana to abhi bhi satar ka zamana hai. If imam gets zahoor then you will have to pay lot more. But then probably you will also be saying all ths stuff to Imam-uz-zamaan
brother TM... If the Imam is more expensive then the dai then the wasi would be more expensive then the imam and Nabi would be more expensive then the wasi and Allah would be the most expensive one. Going by your theory a ordinary dawoodi bohra who cannot afford to pay the dai cannot even imagine of ever asking anything from allah.

Now believe me this is what the kotharis would be telling you while collecting money from you. "Aapi do aapi do aa toh ghanu kum che Imam hotaa toh double paisa bharwa padta" :D :D

If you find this bargain logical then definitely you are a true mumin... Aameen ;)

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#89

Unread post by truemumin » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:12 pm

According to you everything that is done by the dai and his administration popularly known as Kothar is justified. It is the only truth and one has to accept it unconditionally as a true dawoodi bohra or as a true mumin like you.

However before accepting anything as truth and nothing but truth we need to carefully analyze the source. What is the source of your knowledge about dawoodi bohra beliefs in Dai, his office and Mithaq. It is nothing but whatever you have been hearing in waez, majlis etc. from local amils and occasionally from the Dai himself. Now the people who run the local administration will obviously sell you the concept of Dai and Imam keeping their selfish motive in mind. Most of us do not have any access to the authentic Fatimid literature that governs the function of Dai and his office. The point that I am trying to make out here is regarding the source of our information. The authenticity of the source itself is doubtful.

However, if you have read the original literature than I am sure you will find a lot of differences in the way things are mentioned in those books as compared to the way they are performed in reality because no book on religion will promote amassing of extreme wealth at the expense of community for personal gains.

Syedna is like a father figure for the bohras. He is the head of the community. He can lay down effective policies that will make our community number 1 among other communities. He can control corruption in Kothar. The good thing about our community is that we have a central administration system. This means that funds can be channelised effectively to achieve the greater good. The kothar should collect more money from those who have the power to pay and use that money to help those who are in great need of the same. This way the community can really progress much much more than it has already done.

Using Syedna as a trump card for collecting money from the community for personal gains and that to in the name of religion is definitely unacceptable.

quote:
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Dai ka zamana to abhi bhi satar ka zamana hai. If imam gets zahoor then you will have to pay lot more. But then probably you will also be saying all ths stuff to Imam-uz-zamaan

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brother TM... If the Imam is more expensive then the dai then the wasi would be more expensive then the imam and Nabi would be more expensive then the wasi and Allah would be the most expensive one. Going by your theory a ordinary dawoodi bohra who cannot afford to pay the dai cannot even imagine of ever asking anything from allah.

Now believe me this is what the kotharis would be telling you while collecting money from you. "Aapi do aapi do aa toh ghanu kum che Imam hotaa toh double paisa bharwa padta"

If you find this bargain logical then definitely you are a true mumin... Aameen
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1. Suppose you have read a lot of books. Are you sure those books are authenticated. And who has right to authenticate them? Or are you sure that you have grabed exact meaning from them. Einstein's e=mc2 is a very simple statement. To understand it needs several hours discussions with a learned person

2. The problem is that, if some aamils or khidmat guzars do something wrong you peoples put all blame on maula. If this theory is correct then probably (naoozubillah) rasuallah is to be blamed for everything because if he had not allowed the 3 evils and other munafeqeen the religion would not be devided today and perhaps imam hussain did not have to die like that. So would you blame rasuallah???? Or you would trust his hikmat

I am talking on logics. You are allowed to learn religion, why not. But obviously nobody would allow you to jump to 10th standard without passing 1-9 standards. Many many ordinary Bohras (not talking about jamea students) today are learning religion. Nobody stops them. Infact i have observed that religion learning is more common these days then ever

3. Your problem is only funds funds and funds. I dont know how much you have given in your lifetime to jamaat that you make so much hue and cry. Its rediculous. When you live in this world then atleast zamanay kay hisaab say bhi chalna perta hai. If some khidmat guzars do something wrong then to hell with it. It would be between allah and them. Why not you just follow your religion and trust Dai. Obviously trust is main factor

4. Dawat today is going very strong although you peoples don't accept. But it is a fact. We have international fame. Most world leaders respects us. Bohras are now spread all over the world. Bohras are very widely educated and still very strong in religion. I have seen that many most educated persons are more strong in faith and religion compared to low educated persons. Bohras follow religion also in very perfect way. Namaaz, roza, zakat, hajj, ziarats etc. Isnt it a big success

One must see the positive side and carry on. Dai is doing his best to run the safeena of ahl-e-bait and imam. He is chosen by imam so you must trust imam's wisdom and so Dai's wisdom. Let him do his work and don't interfere in it because you don't have that wisdom. If you loose Dai's hands then obviously you will land nowhere. Money is nothing. If some khidmat guzar does anything wrong to you then allah will give you more. Trust allah and Dai. Paisa to waisay bhi bohot reasons say khatam ho jaata hai. Earthquake, riots, loss in business etc. etc. But religion lives evergreen in your heart and on religion basis you have to dei and gve answer to allah. Allah will not ask you about money. So care about religion more

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#90

Unread post by Aarif » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:39 pm

Money is nothing.
Are you sure TM? If money is nothing according to you then why do we end up giving so much "Nothing" to Kothar? Why is kothar so much interested in nothing? Why does everyone work so hard every day for nothing... Your philosophy is unique. "Full of nothing"

BTW: e=mc2 is the key formulae of theory of relativity. This equation is only valid on one assumption. That assumption is that "C" is a constant. It represents speed of light.. Tomorrow if someone proves that speed of light is not constant then this formulae will become invalid. Similarly the base of Islam is Quran. Without Quran there is no Islam. And on similar lines the base of Dawoodi Bohra beliefs is Fatimid Literature. The Dai's started from somewhere..

Unfortunately you did not get my point. How can you?? After all you are such a true mumin... Aameen