Punnishment fit the crime

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seeker110
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Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Punnishment fit the crime

#1

Unread post by seeker110 » Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:33 pm

We are given a life of 80 years or so.We end up with the good and the bad.Now if for some reason we accumulated few more sins than the good deeds,we can end up in jahhannum for all eternity.That could be like millions of life times.
This can not be right or fair.Does anyone buy into this attrocity.

Aarif
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Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#2

Unread post by Aarif » Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:02 pm

Seeker,

I hope your post is not based on listening day in and day out the famous verse "Hazaaron saal jhanam maa jalse aapna dushman". I mean does anyone know for sure what is the procedure for punishing someone who meets his/her maker... I personally think that there would be a set of well defined rules. E.g. I would have committed more sins than good deeds. However it might be nothing in comparison to Hitler. So I would definitely not get the same punishment as him... I think all your good-bad would be taken into account and than decided whether you should go to heaven or hell. Also, initially for a few years one might end up in hell but after his/her punishment is over he/she will be transferred back to heaven.. At the same time if one misbehaves in heaven (particularly with the 70XXX virgins) than he might be thrown back to hell again.. ;)

anajmi
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Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#3

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:49 pm

Plus, one needs to understand what the quran says. The reward for one good deed may be manifold, however, the punishment for a bad deed will be equivalent to that bad deed. If your bad deeds are so many that even after getting a manifold reward for your good deeds, they still aren't enough, then you deserve to burn in hell forever!!

seeker110
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Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#4

Unread post by seeker110 » Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:58 pm

System is rigged.We wont need Hell.

anajmi
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Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#5

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:03 pm

For eg, Saying Bismillah-hir-rahman-nir-rahim (forgive my transliteration) results in 190 good deeds (as per the sunnah of the prophet). Recitation of each letter of the quran is equivalent to 10 good deeds. Now, I don't know if seeker prays salaah, but he does consider it to be a waste of time, but those who do, imagine how many good deeds they accumulate during every salaah. Does a person commit that many bad deeds in a day? He wouldn't be able to even if he tried. And being a believer makes it even harder.

anajmi
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Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#6

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:16 pm

System is rigged.
The system is rigged for back benchers like yourself. Remember how government schools have a lower passing percentage to help the dumb students pass? Consider yourself to be one who needs to take advantage of that system.

seeker110
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Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#7

Unread post by seeker110 » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:54 am

Anajmi your writing style matches gulf's.

anajmi
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Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#8

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:21 am

Well, that would make gulf a better writer than you.

Safiuddin
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Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#9

Unread post by Safiuddin » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:30 am

Recitation of each letter of the quran is equivalent to 10 good deeds. Now, I don't know if seeker prays salaah, but he does consider it to be a waste of time, but those who do, imagine how many good deeds they accumulate during every salaah.
Does this get logged somewhere? Is it a tally that is created by a diety or angel group or what? Is there a protocol in place that someone has gone and observed?
Because no one who has died is here to confirm ANY of this.
Anajmi you are saying that a book written over 1400 years ago is the authority on this?

I find this a bit hard to digest.

Zeal
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:01 am

Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#10

Unread post by Zeal » Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:45 am

Does this get logged somewhere? Is it a tally that is created by a diety or angel group or what? Is there a protocol in place that someone has gone and observed?
Because no one who has died is here to confirm ANY of this.
Anajmi you are saying that a book written over 1400 years ago is the authority on this?

I find this a bit hard to digest.
________________________________________________

Saifuddin,
Quran is revelaed to the prophet and every word in it is Allah's word.
If you are finding it hard to digest , its time you check your inner self.
Basic Imaan inside you may be taking a backseat.

Dont let your little innovative instinct win the battle.

Zeal
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:01 am

Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#11

Unread post by Zeal » Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:00 am

Does this get logged somewhere? Is it a tally that is created by a diety or angel group or what? Is there a protocol in place that someone has gone and observed?
Because no one who has died is here to confirm ANY of this.
Anajmi you are saying that a book written over 1400 years ago is the authority on this?

I find this a bit hard to digest.
________________________________________________

Saifuddin,
Quran is revelaed to the prophet and every word in it is Allah's word.
If you are finding it hard to digest , its time you check your inner self.
Basic Imaan inside you may be taking a backseat.

Dont let your little innovative instinct win the battle.

anajmi
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#12

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:13 pm

Safiuddin,

Being a doctor, you should be able to post smarter questions. We are talking about God himself keeping track over here. Even human made governments these days can keep track of pretty much everything a person does. Information that needed acres of space only a few decades back can now be stored on a small 6 inch by 4in by 2 in hard drive.

No one needs to die to confirm this. There are enough living people who've been saying this for centuries. Do you think you will believe a dead person when you won't believe a living one? You know what they call people who come back from the dead in America, don't you? Zombies. If you need evidence from a zombie, what does that make you?

Aarif
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Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#13

Unread post by Aarif » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:47 pm

For eg, Saying Bismillah-hir-rahman-nir-rahim (forgive my transliteration) results in 190 good deeds (as per the sunnah of the prophet). Recitation of each letter of the quran is equivalent to 10 good deeds.
Anajmi,

Does that mean that people like Osama will go to heaven even after killing so many innocent people, unless killing someone results in revocation of all your privilages as far as the heaven account is concerned. I mean if what you have said above is mentioned in Quran than this might be the easy way out for people like Osama, since he definitely considers himself a believer. Please shed some light on this.

Thai
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Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#14

Unread post by Thai » Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:13 pm

As I understand it(and I could be wrong), the principle qualities mentioned repeatedly regarding Allah, is that he is just, compassionate and merciful. Thus, those who go to hell are those who truly deserve to do so. According to Surah 15, verse 44 (?) there are 7 gates to hell with different class of sinner assigned to different gates. Justice is determined not simply by "act/action" but also by intention---therefore--you would have committed a "sin" or a bad action, knowingly and with the full intention of causing harm. The principle of justice would demand that such actions be appropriately punished. However, Allah is also merciful and compassionate and willing to listen to sincere repentence.

Thai
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Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#15

Unread post by Thai » Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:16 pm

not sure--but aren't here 2 heavens? one for the super good people like prophets and the other for us ordinary good people?

Aarif
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Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#16

Unread post by Aarif » Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:18 pm

Justice is determined not simply by "act/action" but also by intention---therefore--you would have committed a "sin" or a bad action, knowingly and with the full intention of causing harm.
Now I understand why Osama will go to heaven even after killing so many innocent people as he has killed them for a purpose of allah which he calls jihad against the non-believers.

Aarif
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#17

Unread post by Aarif » Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:25 pm

not sure--but aren't here 2 heavens? one for the super good people like prophets and the other for us ordinary good people?
I seriously hope Osama does not end up in Super heaven. Also, please don't talk about this qouta system. Syedna will end up securing a place for himself there on the basis that he has sold so many spots to bohras in ordinary heaven.

On a serious note according to prophet(pbuh) all mortals are equal in the eyes of allah. In that case I don't think there should be any discrimination out there...

Thai
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Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#18

Unread post by Thai » Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:26 pm

But if he knowingly and with intention wanted to cause harm to innocent people---it would be MURDER and against the Quran (and Allah) and as Allah knows what is in the hearts of all, no amount of verbal arguments will justify the deed---right?

Thai
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Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#19

Unread post by Thai » Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:31 pm

:DSuper heaven? ---Now that is a thought, :D ;)

Aarif
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Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#20

Unread post by Aarif » Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:59 pm

Thai,

Talk about the intension. I am talking about it.. E.g. if you ask Osama about the cause for which he is killing he will say, my intent is to serve allah. So for that I will kill people whom I think are infidels... He is never going to accept that I am murdering innocent people... And remember that is what he believes in his heart...

Safiuddin
Posts: 546
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Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#21

Unread post by Safiuddin » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:40 pm

Quran is revelaed to the prophet and every word in it is Allah's word
As it was translated by an illiterate man and written by other men. Never mind what my imaan is or isn't - my point here is that an archaic book is being interpreted to suit the whims and desires of unscrupulous people - and there is not one shred of evidence to prove the existence of this hereafter or this fathomable yet infathomable diety. (Paraphrased from one of Danish's previous posts - forgive any inaccuracies).

Thai
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Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#22

Unread post by Thai » Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:30 am

Aareef

You bring up some interesting points---In that what if our intentions are good but the result is bad? I am sure that Allah is compassionate and merciful if we are sincerely repentent of the bad results of our actions.

As to Osama, I don't know what is or is not in his heart---nor do I care to find out---however, if he had bothered to read the Quran, he would have come across the concept of "just war" ---a concept that the catholic church has also (recently) adopted by the way. In this concept, during the conduct of war, "collateral damage" must be avoided. Therefore, If Osama had a dispute with the Americans, and needed to fight a war, He should have done so under the principles of "just war" laid out in the Quran. Also--the definition of "believer" and "unbeliever" are also very clear in the Quran---(according to my translation) A believer is one who believes in One God/Creator and follows the revelations/guidance given to them. And the Quran says that Guidance has been given to ALL mankind (not just the arabs)---the "unbeliever" on the other hand, is one who has turned away from God/Creator and his message by choice, knowingly and without force.

Therefore---If Osama had read the Quran and understood the "just war" principles and the definitions---but done the act anyway---he would be an "unbeliever" according to the Quran. I have to say, since the man reads and understands arabic, how he could have misunderstood the Quran is hard to fathom.

Thai
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Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#23

Unread post by Thai » Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:40 am

It is my understanding that the just war principles were further developed by muslim scholars and jurists of early Islam. Many of these ideas ---which were later translated---ended up in the Geneva conventions of today. (according to the theory of some scholars of history)

feelgud
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Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#24

Unread post by feelgud » Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:01 pm

Originally posted by Aareef:

Talk about the intension. I am talking about it.. E.g. if you ask Osama about the cause for ...
Aareef ,
Only Allah knows what is in someone's heart.
NO guesswork plz.

I hope Osama must have read this:

Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: "The first of people to be judged on the Day of Resurrection will be a man who died a martyr. He will be brought forward and Allah will make him recount his blessings and he will do so. Then Allah will ask: 'What did you do for these blessings?' He will say: 'I fought on your behalf until I was martyred.' Allah will say: 'You are lying. You fought so that the people would call you brave, and indeed they called you that.' Then he will be summoned and dragged on his face until he is cast into Hell. Another will be a man who acquired knowledge and imparted it and recited the Qur'ân. He will be brought forward and Allah will make him recount his blessings and he will do so. Then Allah will ask: 'What did you do for these blessings?' He will say: 'I acquired knowledge and imparted it and I recited the Qur'ân for your sake.' Allah will say: 'You are lying. You acquired knowledge so people would call you a learned man and you recited the Qur'ân so that people would call you a good reciter. Indeed they called you these things.' Then he will be summoned and dragged on his face until he is cast into Hell. Another will be a man who Allah had enriched with all manner of wealth. He will be brought forward and Allah will make him recount his blessings and he will do so. Then Allah will ask: 'What did you do for these blessings?' He will say: 'I spent money for your sake on every cause in which You wish money to be spent.' Allah will say: 'You are lying. You did this so that people would call you generous, and indeed they called you that.' Then he will be summoned and dragged on his face until he is cast into Hell." [Sahîh Muslim]

wassalam

anajmi
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Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#25

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:30 pm

Aareef,

First, who's been telling you about Osama the boogey man? Do you believe them? If you do, then you have other issues.

Second, have you seen or heard Osama saying bismillah?

Third, if you believe in Allah then you also believe that he will decide who will go to jannah from his believers and who won't, except of course the type of people already mentioned in the quran and you also believe that he won't do any injustice to anyone. Of course, if you don't believe in Allah, then this discussion is pointless.

Allah says in the quran that killing an innocent is like killing the entire mankind.

005.032
YUSUFALI: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
PICKTHAL: For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.
SHAKIR: For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

So if Osama has killed an innocent to spread mischief in the land then it is like has has killed the entire mankind. That is a lot sins to take care of.

Plus, and this is my understanding, even sins have degrees, just like they do on earth. The punishment varies with severity of the crime.

Safiuddin,
and there is not one shred of evidence to prove the existence of this hereafter
There is a lot of evidence to prove the existence of the hereafter. But people have free will to either believe what they see or don't believe what they see. 95% of the people on earth believe in God. If these were all created by "nature" then there is something terribly wrong with "nature". Have you seen any other species on earth created by this "nature" to have a 95% defective rate?

Let me ask you a question, in your profession have you come across, or at least heard of, people who have these out of body experiences? Where the doctor pronounces them dead, and then they come back to life after some time? Have you heard about the stories these people tell? Do you believe them?

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#26

Unread post by Danish » Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:47 pm

OBE is a phenomenon practised whilst alive, similar to yoga meditation, telepathy, clairvoyance, psychometry, etc, which involves deep trance techniques and can be very dangerous. None of these techniques have ever encountered your alleged "Allah".

anajmi
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Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#27

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:12 pm

Do you actually think Allah is simply waiting to get encountered by these people? He is not a planet waiting to be discovered. Understand the concept of God first and then argue about it.

Danish
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Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#28

Unread post by Danish » Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:46 pm

Originally posted by anajmi:
Do you actually think Allah is simply waiting to get encountered by these people? He is not a planet waiting to be discovered.
According to YOU and your Arabized ilk, your Allah (The God), the HE MALE SUPERNATURAL FATHOMABLE DEITY has already been encountered, discovered, locked up and invisibly preserved with human attributes in a black box whom you bow and prostrate towards from all corners of the globe and kiss and circumvent around, in spite of HIM being FATHOMLESS and UNPERCEIVABLE. No wonder HE is deaf, dumb and blind. No argument there. You have manipulated and desecrated the Quran and put Abu al Qasim to shame.

feelgud
Posts: 725
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#29

Unread post by feelgud » Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:24 pm

bak rahaa hooN junooN meiN kya kya kuchch
kuchch na samjhe KHuda kare koee

jab tavaqqo hee uTh gayee 'GHalib'
kyoN kisee ka gila kare koee ?

shur-0-ain par maddar sahi
aise qatil ka kiya kare koi

unki bazam main bolne se zuban katti hai
woh kahain aur suna kare koi

bak raha hoon junoon main kiya kiya kuch
kuch na samjhay dua kare koi

(Ghalib)

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Punnishment fit the crime

#30

Unread post by Aarif » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:04 pm

Only Allah knows what is in someone's heart.
Sure!! Unless the guy goes public and reveals his true intentions. I do understand that the west is blowing too much smoke from very little fire... However, one cannot deny the fact that there is no smoke without fire... Also, there is no oil in Afganishtan.. Now that answers some questions right???
Second, have you seen or heard Osama saying bismillah?
Yes I have.. I have seen clipping of Osama on Qatar TV where he is shown praying namaz. In fact Al-Qaida means "The Law" and this is the Islamic law. The Taliban strictly follows the Quran and Hadith in every aspect of their lives. This is a well known fact even among the muslim countries.
Third, if you believe in Allah then you also believe that he will decide who will go to jannah from his believers and who won't,
Ofcourse I do.. But than this post was not to justify my stand. I have not killed anybody.. I am talking about those cowards who kill people in the name of religion and than justify it. Osama is just an example.. There are many we see everyday in headlines and unfortunately they know a lot about Islam. Most of them are religious teachers etc. How is it that they do not understand these basic facts about Islam.
According to YOU and your Arabized ilk, your Allah (The God), the HE MALE SUPERNATURAL FATHOMABLE DEITY has already been encountered, discovered, locked up and invisibly preserved with human attributes in a black box whom you bow and prostrate towards from all corners of the globe and kiss and circumvent around, in spite of HIM being FATHOMLESS and UNPERCEIVABLE. No wonder HE is deaf, dumb and blind. No argument there. You have manipulated and desecrated the Quran and put Abu al Qasim to shame.
Danish Danish
Yes Pappa
Eating shit
No Pappa
Open your mouth
Aah Aah Aaah...