The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Khairan,<br>Don't u think that onus lies on u people to prove that there is God. Science is unwrapping the secrets one after the another. Previously religion said God is the creator. Now u have cloning where a living being is created from the DNA presnt in cell from hair.Agreed that it is not a creation from scratch but still it breaks many myths. Viruses are produced in labs. <br>In almost all religious books u will find things which have no logical explainations ,miracles etc. Prove it . I have not seen a single miracle which can not be explained on scientific principle.<br>I have seen people talking that Holy Quran has remedy for all diseases & blah blah .I have not read it myself ,but I know for sure that these people run to nearest Allopath Doctor for a trivial fever .If you have so much belief in the books then why don't u all practise what u preach.?<br>And Khairan ,<br> u said "this claim is separate and distinct from the fact that certain religions have made claims which are scientifically thought to be inaccurate".<br>Definitely in Islam also such claims have been made. Also many must have been present in Holy Quran . Can u disassosicate urself from such claims?If u consider Holy Quran to be truth then evrything mentioned in it has to be truth. Even if there is one false statement ,this implies anything in it can be challenged.<br>And this is true for all religions & all religious books.
> Even if there is one false statement ,this implies anything in it can be challenged.<p>asif,<p>I agree completely. That is why I am a Muslim. People have been trying to meet the Qur'an's challenge of finding discrepancy for 14 centuries, and it has not been done yet in an unequivocal manner.
> Science is unwrapping the secrets one after the another.<p>asif, <p>based on this statement, your argument rests on the notion that religion as a concept exists solely in opposition to science. This is absurd, and blatantly untrue. While there are many examples that support that idea, there are many others that contradict it. <p>Further, because God "made" the universe does not preclude the possibility that he created physics to do it. All mechanistic explanations of the world stop short of explaining WHERE the laws that govern the universe come from, and it is at least as arbitrary on anyone's part to decide that they have arisen on their own as to decide that they were Created.<p>I agree that no religious text has offered a complete explanation of the mysteries of science, but that has never been their aim. Some have even offered incorrect explanations. So what? Even if you choose to decide that all religions in the world are in some way false that still does not mean that God does not exist. <p>If your ultimate goal is to prove that God is a fallacy, then, as I said before, you are taking at least as much a leap of faith in believing in nothing as any religionist does in believing in something.
asif,<br>I suggest that you read the Quran in English. Then you will realize the correct perspective of life. Science is nothing but what man learns about the secrets of God. Man has lots of pride that he went to the moon. But who created man in the first place and who gave him the knowledge and capability ? Who created the moon ? If you truly read the Quran you will realize that not even one ayat is irrelevant today. It is the word of Allah, the Almighty and those who oppose Him will be humiliated.
Khairan,<br>You are suggesting that Islam teaches you to reason rather than take anything blindly. But is it not a fact that even Islam says you cannot argue on "There is only one God & that Mohammed his prophet".This is the Kalma?, right? I am no scholar in religion but this is what my parents say. Now what I am saying is why can't the above statement be challenged? If you beieve in that without any reason & if what u believe is wrong than your foundation itself is shaken.<br>You convevniently skipped my questions . Religion & science are not complementary .They are at logger heads. If u analyze deeply ,you will find that Science does not need any divine intervention. At quantum world everything is probabilistic . I will not go into details.Where as when God comes in picture ,it becomes deterministic. & my above statement is based on what has been proved beyon doubt.Ur questions about how did the laws of nature arose etc are valid.But just to inform you that String theory explains even that!!!It is in nascent stage but still it is very near to Theory of Evrything. I am not saying that human being will be able unravel evry secrets of nature but still that doesnot mean that we should hide our ignorance behind religion.<p>I have many more things to say but thoughts are flooding me. One thing that is popping in my head evry now & then is regarding the riots in Gujarat . If there was any God would innocent babies would have died? Ur God is Rahim!!!!!:-). Unborn killed in foetus!!!!Looking at the country ,at the world ,Pray what makes u think that there is GOD!!!. <p>And Huzaifa , Stop cursing me .U say that I will become snake . U read Ala Kitaab for 6 hrs a day. Don't u know rebirth is not allowed in Islam.? Talk logically ,Talkk sense. & don't waste ur time reading those books. They wiull take u no where . "Mara Gaya shaitaan ek sajde ke na karne se, Jo lakhon baras sajde me sar mara to kya maraa"<p>The world will certainly be a better place without religion.<br>& u still have not answered who is going to go in Jananat ? Christians, or Jews ,or Hindus ,or Muslims or Zorastrians or Jains or Buddhist or ......................
Science is a current conjecture about how 'universe' appears to those who engage in "scientific pursuits". They are scientists. They obtain consensus and tell the rest of the populace which agrees with them. The received conjecture is valid until it is refuted by evidence and a 'better' conjecture. Please read Karl Popper's "Conjectures and Refutations".<p>Religion purports to state absolute truths. Those truths, if believed, will validate your experience and will further reinforce those beliefs. If you believe that religion is a conjecture, then that belief too will validtae your experience too. You experience what you believe.<p>Where religion meets science is that the pursuit of science is sometimes regulated by moral, ethical and religious beliefs. Some pursuits are considered valid and some not. <p>Westernn civilization pushes the boundaries of what is valid and it coninually progresses. Islamic civilization pulls the boundaries inwards and continually regresses.<p>Hence the dynamism of West and stagnation and degeneration of Islam in all its forms. That also leads to moral and ethical bankruptcy. No development, no power equals moral degeneracy. Muslims should beware.<p>
asif,<p>> It is in nascent stage but still it is very near to Theory of Evrything.<br>Again, your words belie your biases. You question the rationality of someone putting their faith in a Creator, yet you are happy to believe that a theory which is far from being proven is automatically more reasonable, just because a scientist has proposed it? You can't do that and maintain any claim at all on objectivity.<p>> even Islam says you cannot argue on "There is only one God & that Mohammed his prophet".<p>What does this have to do with blind faith? To be a Muslim is to accept this basic tenet of Islam. If you don't believe in Islam, you don't believe in the words of the shahadat. The question is whether you have reason to believe the shahadat to begin with. <p>> You convevniently skipped my questions<p>Or you completely missed my answer, or I didn't understand your question to begin with.<p>> that doesnot mean that we should hide our ignorance behind religion.<p>You have yet to put forward a cogent argument as to why religion as a phenomenon necessarily precludes a scientific outlook. Again, I agree that this is true in some cases, but it is also decidedly false in others. Which means that as a rule, your statement just doesn't hold up.<p><br>porus,<p>> Where religion meets science is that the pursuit of science is sometimes regulated by moral, ethical and religious beliefs.<p>I would put this a different way. Science, as we understand it in the modern day, has relegated itself to the pursuit of physical properties of the universe. Religion is largely concerned with metaphysical ones. The projects of the two pursuits are largely different, but they are both very valid and important avenues in which to seek knowledge.<p><br>Salaam
Khairan ,<br>I asked u simple questions <br>1)One thing that is popping in my head evry now & then is regarding the riots in Gujarat . If there was any God would innocent babies would have died? Ur God is Rahim!!!!!:-). Unborn killed in foetus!!!!Looking at the country ,at the world ,Pray what makes u think that there is GOD!!!. <br>.I only c Godmen(Conman) everywhere no GOD<p>2)who is going to go in Jananat ? Christians, or Jews ,or Hindus ,or Muslims or Zorastrians or Jains or Buddhist or ......................
> If there was any God would innocent babies would have died? Ur God is Rahim!<p>asif, <p>Just because the world is not the way you want it to be is not irrefutable proof that there is no God.<p>Also, who is to say that we are supposed to live in a perfect world? The world we have is of our own making, because God has granted us moral agency. The mistakes we make, therefore, as well as the good we do, are ours to claim. The Qur'an acknowledges that man has the capacity to be asfala safileen, but it is this capacity that makes our good deeds worthwhile, because in being gentle we overcome our evils and the good is all the more glorious for it.<p>If we lived in a perfect world, we would be in heaven. As it is, this is obviously not the case, and it is our lot to make sense of what we do have and enrich our spirits as we are able. From adversity comes wisdom, and in understanding and learning from our flaws comes our worth.<p>> Looking at the country ,at the world ,Pray what makes u think that there is GOD!!!. <p>Fa inna ma'al usre yusra<br>Always with the ill comes the good as well. If you see only the one and not the other, that is your choice... <p><br>As far as who is going to heaven, what mortal is qualified to judge? Certainly not I...<p>
Khairan,<br>UrSelf convinced with the answers u gave? To me it sounds plain philosophy with no touch to reality .& in any case this was expected. After all this beating around the bush is what u all beleivers in God /Godmen can do.<p>In any case I will not torture u further on this topic . Coz may be further arguing with u will hurt ur sentiments & beliefs .<p>
asif<br>Those who understand only the zahir of the Quran will often feel lost. Just like you. There are tons and tons of hidden meanings in the Quran. It is the Imam and the Dai who can explain the deeper meanings. I go to sabaks due to which I have been fortunate to understand the deeper meanings.
<br>br. Huzaif<p>Your comment:- "Those who understand only the zahir of the Quran will often feel lost"<p>Please show by concrete example that Zahir part of Quran has mislead you. No rhetoric, just plain facts from Quran or Sunnah of the Prophet SAW.<p>"There are tons and tons of hidden meanings in the Quran"<p>There were more then dozens of Imaams and 52 Dais. If these ppl. May Allah bless them had tons of Baatini knowledge why do not put it in words and publish it. What is this secrete Sabak business. There is nothing like secrete as far as knowledge of Allah is concerned. If you are a scholar and you have something meaningful to say then say it openly.<p>Here is your chance. Every time you go for Sabak, make notes and share with us.<p>Wasalaam<p><br>
Asif,<p>As George Carlin said, "War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago."<p>-N
huzaif <br>You should do some re-search on people who understand the Holy Book (esoteric and exoteric). Find out what Qualities these people have and what they have done with their knowledge.<p>It is just a false claim you and people like you make. Sayedna has NEVER CLAIMED to know more than what an average quranic scholar knows. Ignorant people like you who have no Idea of what it means to 'KNOW THE HOLY BOOK' always come things that can never be proven.<br>
Huzaif<br>Do you have anything in those Kitab that we are not already aware of -it?? Tell me something from those books that we don’t know.<p>You do know it is very difficult to Take the word of Abde Sayedna. These Slave of Sayedna has no scruples, prone to lie and are irrational most of time.
<br>From Huzaif:-" am studying the haqeeqat kitaabs which only a few selected are given raza for. These are the secrets of Daawat and raza is given to those of only a strong faith and intellect. Not to people like you who are doubters."<p>My brother there is no secree Ilm of Allah.<p>Allah SWT gave Quran to our Prophet SAW and he recited it Publically. He explained it to Sahaba's publically. He did not write secret books and gave it to his family. Anybody apporoached him he gave explainations. Nobody needed Raza to listen to him.<p>Wihout scrutiny from scholars of Islam these secrete books are worthless. Only secrete societies have Raza'a, Iniation rites etc. etc.<p>It is fruitless to argue with you since you will not tell me your Baatili meaning of one single Ayah of Quran. You are a made member of a secreteive society which has been called 'Cult' by its own adherents.<p>So I challange you to give your version of meaning of Surat Al-Ikhlas or At-Tauhid (Surah 112)<p>If you wish I will start a new therad.<p>Wasalaam<p><br>
Dear MuslimFirst,<p>[2.255] Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot comprehend anything out of His knowledge except what He pleases, His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both tires Him not, and He is the Most High, the Great.<p>[3.66] Behold! you are they who disputed about that of which you had knowledge; why then do you dispute about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows while you do not know.<p>"My brother there is no secret Ilm of Allah."<p>---Do you believe you know everything Allah knows? Do you believe you know everything the Prophet knew? Do you believe the sahaba knew everything the Prophet knew...let alone Allah?<p>The answer is NO! No, it is not secret..it is ilm you don't know or understand as of yet. Just as most people drive cars and work with computers...and have absolutely no idea how these things operate...so to do most muslim read the Quran and perform their salats with little understanding of the true purpose and meaning of them.
huzaif,<br>you say you are studying haqaiq. one of the first things taught even at the taweel stage is not to discuss it among yourself, let alone talk about it in the presence of known munafiqs here. the true student of taweel and haqaiq does not go around proclaiming that he has studied so and so. instead the change after studying is palpable in behavior and lifestyle. please use your newfound knowledge to introspect and increase your ikhlaas and valaayat for daizzamaan and do not spend your time educating folks here. please do not take it in the wrong manner. if you think i sound condescending, please ask your ustaad whether such knowledge can be discussed outside the realm of sabak.
huzaif,you wrote,"I am studying the haqeeqat kitaabs which only a few selected are given raza for. These are the secrets of Daawat and raza is given to those of only a strong faith and intellect. Not to people like you who are doubters."Can you or anybody on this board tell me why is it a secret and one needs RAZA?And then again, if one is a of strong faith, like you,why waste time reading haqeeqat kitabs, just follow your amil/mulla/or whoever gives sabaak.Is it not that all books are to be read and knowledge to be obtained from it so that one can follow the right path?<br>And yes Br Qiyam you are right most people who use a car or computer do not know how it works, but then,do they need any RAZA from anybody to read the books explaining the system?
Dear Anwar,<br>If I gave you a book explaining how the V6 engine operates and acts...written in the language level a master mechanic...would you understand it?<p>If I gave you a book explaining the circuitry of a pentium chip and its relations to the motherboard and sdram chips of a cpu...written for a computer technican...would you understand it?<p>No..you would not..unless you were instructed in understanding the books by a master mechanic and a computer technican. We are taught physics in school by a physics professor..who him/herself went to school for years to understand what he/she teaches.<p>So if you take a book like Daimul Islam by Qadi Numan...with no historical background on Islam, the Prophet, the Imams, the traditions, the arabian society, the difference between sects...and many other things...would you understand why there are seven pillars described in it...versus the sunni five pillars? The book was not written for the lay muslim...but for other qadis to reference.<p>These books of taweel and haqiqat are not written at the level of a beginner student but someone who has a base of understanding. And even then, an authorized person, who himself was taught, would teach you from the books. This is the reason behind requiring raza for learning from these books.
Br. qiyam,<p>in your response to anwar, there is one element which you haven't taken into account. As you say, in all areas of knowledge, acquiring training at the higher levels requires first proficiency at lower levels. In a university, many advanced classes have prerequisites without which you cannot take these classes. The prerequisites prove to the university and to the professor that you have the training necessary to assimilate course material and therefore to justify the space and resources you take up with your presence. Okay - follow and agree with you upto here.<p>The fundamental difference in the case of the above and the case of having raza to study batin knowledge is this: batin knowledge is not available anywhere else. It is in fact *secret* because no one has ready access to it without first passing levels of clearance. In the case of standard academic knowledge, like software or mechanics or physical chemistry, anybody can buy and read an advanced book discussing the topic. They are not forbidden from doing so or prevented from accessing this knowledge, though they will most likely be unable to grasp it.<p>Insofar as this is true, the two situations are not analagous.<p>Salaams
The Quran states - Say: "The Death from which ye flee will truly overtake you: then will ye be sent back to the Knower of things secret and open: and He will tell you the things that ye did!"<br>Indeed Allah is All-Knowing of all things. No secret can be kept from Him. And the Imams and the Dais are trustees to some of His secrets.<p><br>
You mean Aqal Al-Awal as in Neo-Platonism? And the cycle's of Alam?<p>Yeah..I have read few of that but I don’t see why you should claim these things are secrecy of Dawat. Most people know these topic & Ideas quite well..<p>Like I said. Do you have anything new that we are not aware of yet?? I mean something that is done and research by yourself and no copycat from some other branch of knowledge and from some books??
<br>Huzaif said:-"Did u know that there are 1029 stars in the sky"<p>I Thought ther are millians of stars.<p>If this is part of secrete knowledge of Imaams and Daawat, then, no wonder you need Raza to learn it. They are looking for ppl. who check-out their brains at the door.<p>Keep on Brother Huzaif. More you write absurd it gets.<p>Wasalaam<p><p>