Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Guest

Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#1

Unread post by Guest » Tue Feb 20, 2001 2:50 am

Hello,<p>Can a non muslim (Hindu) girl marry a shiya, bohri muslim(moslem) if she agrees to convert. I have learnt from someone that she may not marry unless she is adopted by a muslim, as her father is not a muslim. What does the Holy Koran say about marriage of a man outside the religion (including Jews and Christians)? <p>Also if the girl is a Christian or a Jew does she still have to convert to Islam.<p>regards

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#2

Unread post by Guest » Wed Feb 21, 2001 12:15 am

Dear anonymous:<p>It is possible for a non bohra girl to marry with a bohra boy. However due to pressures of the khotar the couple are forced to sign a letter in which they declare for their unborn children, allegiance to the syedna, and also in which their divorce is condemned. <p>This is basically a prenuptual agreement. A true template of this letter is presented below for you to see.<p>The letter, although has no legal implications is a sick and immoral form of a control tactic implemented by the khotar and shows no blessing/ goodwill for the couple in love.<p>Salaams<br>Aleem<p><br>_______________________<br>The 52nd Dai al-Mutlaq<br>His Holiness Dr. Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (TUS)<br>Head of Dawoodi Bohra Community<br>Badri Mahal<br>Dr. D N Road, Fort<br>Mumbai 400 001 <p>Syedna (TUS) <p>Sajadaat <p>We, the undersigned (girls full name) and (boys full name) undertake on our getting married to strictly adhere to the laws, rules, customs, traditions and culture of Dawat-e-Hadiyah and in all matters of religion, particularly matrimonial action, divorce, custody of children, maintenance and inheritance we agree to be governed by Islamic law as is interpreted by al-Dai al-Mutlaq. And further, God forbid, in the event of our divorce or separation or death of any one of us, or both, our children shall be raised as per the directions of al-Dai al-Mutlaq. <p>(girls signature) (boys signature)<br>

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#3

Unread post by Guest » Thu Feb 22, 2001 3:09 pm

Dear Aleem,<p>Thanks a lot for the information. It is really invaluable. I'll be very grateful if you can tell me if there are any more letters or any other procedures that need to be followed. <p>Thanks again for all your help and time.<p>Regards <br>Anonymous

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#4

Unread post by Guest » Fri Feb 23, 2001 7:54 am

Anonymous:<br>Well the girls father will not be allowed to "give you away" unless he is a bohra and will be told to stand back and not join in the ceremony.<p>She will have to be given away by someone who the khotar deem fit.<p>If she wants to be given away by her true father - he will be FORCED to 'convert' and sign a similar letter himself.<p>Please bear in mind that these are political moves by the khotar and for a wedding one must do what their HEART says for the sake of ALLAH and love for their partner - not for the sake of a cult-like community.<p>Salaams<br>Aleem<p>

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#5

Unread post by Guest » Fri Feb 23, 2001 4:01 pm

Assalamu alaykum,<br>Actually "anonymous" and Br. Aleem, all muslims sects that marry non-muslims (other than christian/jews) require something similar to this except it is related to their particular madhab...be it ithna ashari, ismaili, maliki, hanafi, etc. It is very incorrect to say this is a political motive by the kothar. You neither gain or lose anything politically in the matter. It is also very ignorant to say the father is FORCED TO CONVERT as though it is a bad thing to come back to Islam and the right path. "Anonymous", remember that according to analogy of Br. Aleem, the Prophet and the small community of Muslims would have been considered a cult-like community to the christians of the time. Learn about the beliefs first and those who are teaching them. You may then realize those who oppose or speak ill are usually the ones not practicing Islam to begin with.<br>Was salamu<br>Was salam

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#6

Unread post by Guest » Fri Feb 23, 2001 8:31 pm

As salam o Aleikum Husayn,<p>Prophet Muhammad(sm) married outside his tribe to make sure that the concept of tribes and communities was broken. He also married a Christian Coptic slave and did not require her to sign any sort of letter/agreement or anything for marriage. It was just a simple plain Nikkah. The issue of children is a mutual understanding of the father and the mother and no external entity had a right to say anything in the matter. This is clear from Qur'an itself, ask me for references and I will provide you with many.<p>As far as practice of other sects is concerned, Muslims do not define Islam. Islam defines Muslims. If majority of Muslims are unable to follow Islam or do not adhere to its practices, does not necessarily mean it is right. It is surprising to see that millions of Muslims are well-read except in the field of their own religion. It is also astonishing that this happens with the Book which asks its reader to read and understand It more than any other Book in the World.<p>This is a political move as inclusion of non-Bohras in their society would losen the control of the priesthood over the community. People have already started questioning his authority, which has caused much distress in past. People questioned Muhammad(sm) will all kinds of question and he satisfied them with all sorts of explanations. What a stark contrast! In fact Allah has answered the queries of many people in Qur'an, which start with "O Muhammad they ask you concerning ..., tell them ...". In fact Surah Mujadilah was revealed when a woman was having an argument with Prophet, using the words "Allah has listened to the woman ...".<p>Bohras do not marry outside their community, and those who convert to marry are generally not allowed in Jamat Khanas and mosques. They are outsiders!<p>Aleem: Also as far as my understanding goes, no orthodox Bohra Amil will read your Nikkah without you having taken the Misaq. This Misaq would require you to follow the Bohra Dai as your spiritual leader and in case of your deviation, your wife, property etc will be unlawful for you. Ba'arat will be applied to you and your family.<p>Best,<br>Muhammad Omer Iqbal

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#7

Unread post by Guest » Fri Feb 23, 2001 9:56 pm

Assalamu alayk Br. Musalaman,<br>Dear Br. you are indeed wrong regarding what is defined for marriage both in the Bohra community and in Islam in general. The nikah itself is a contract between the groom (who must be muslim) and the bride's wali (whom should be muslim and not necessarily her father) who represents the wishes of the bride. Secondly the Prophet instituted the performance of the nikah...do you think he would not practice it himself? The nikah (a contract signed) is done infront of at minimum two witnesses (preferably 4) and during which both swear the couple will abide by the islamic laws with the stipulations of the madhab. Children are one of the blessings of marriage and is the reason the father should be muslim (the father must teach and support the child's religious and secular eductation). If he is christian he will teach his children christianity and as such the muslim mother would be supporting this which is haram. The external entity is the Imam and his Dai and by being Allah's representatives on this earth they have the correct position. Whether you follow is of your own doing.<p>Regarding bohras entering marriage with non-muslims, I know personally many muslims who have married outside the community and most have converts to Islam (Bohra) and are more than welcome in the jamat khannas/masjids. I know many mullahs from jamia who's mothers were christian and converts to islam. There is no stipulation that you cannot marry outside the community (they must convert if not christian or jew though).<p>Regarding the misaq or bayah, this is the bayah of following Allah, Prophet, Imamate, and following the Imam's Dai. This is part and parcel of entering the fold of Muslims and taking the shahadat. It was practiced by Rasullah, the Imams, and their Dais before and now.<br>Was salam

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#8

Unread post by Guest » Sat Feb 24, 2001 6:08 pm

Wa aleikum us salaam,<p>Qur'an does not define the contract between the groom and wife's wali. Infact there was a man who forcefully married his daughter to a guy, she complained to Prophet(sm) and the marriage was nullified as she did not want to be wife to that man. Qur'an has defined marriage between a man and a woman, with four witnesses; there is never a mention of father as such.<p>"and during which both swear the couple will abide by the islamic laws with the stipulations of the madhab."<p>If this were the case, Qur'an would not make a sacntion on marrying the women of the people of the Book, as having gone through this formality, she would be as good as a Muslim woman.<p>In Bohras, people convert because they are forced to take misaq and they have to get married. I would want you to give me the name of one bohra Amil who would do Nikah without having a non-Bohra taken the Misaq. And obviously taking a Misaq makes them Bohra anyways, so that means the marriage is as good as marriage between two Bohras.<p>Imams is a disputed issue, never was any mention made to that of a Dai. Also, there has been much debate on the issue of Imams already on this board elsewhere. I will not talk on this topic.<p>Best,<br>Musalmaan<br>

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#9

Unread post by Guest » Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:04 am

Assalaamu alekum <p>The letter from Dai al-Mutlaq clearly demands allegiance to him (...governed by Islamic law AS IS INTERPRETED BY AL-DAI AL-MULTAQ.....children shall be raised as per the directions of al-Dai al-Mutlaq....)It is deplorable that the orthodox bohras are unable to cognise the obvious difference between allegiance to Religion and that to a person. Why are the views of the orthodox bohras different from those of Qura'n and sayings of Prophet Mohammed(PBUH)?<p>Sufi<br>

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#10

Unread post by Guest » Mon Feb 26, 2001 9:36 pm

Assalamu alaykum<br>I would like to reply to the comments by Br. Musalaman<p>1. Your correct that the Qur'an doesn't state that the bride needs a wali..the Prophet does via hadith. The bride cannot touch the groom hand until after marriage and therefore require a representative to "certify" the nikah with the groom and the qadi. The wali is the representative of the bride. If the bride doesn't want to marry their is no need for a wali. Forced marriage are prohibited as you stated.<p>2. The Quran states that this applies except for People of Book and they are to abide by their book.<p>3. I cannot name an amil who would deny one the marriage can you? Taking the misaq is to take an oath of abiding by the Laws of Allah, following His Prophets, Imams and their Dais in ghaybat. One is a mumin if they ABIDES by this not just claims it. Just as one who takes the shahadat is a muslim but not necessarily a mumin.<p>Did not the Prophet and the Imams take bayah or misaq from their companions? If you can answer this truthfully then you can answer your own question of why bohras take the bayah or misaq. If you don't follow the Imamiyah fiqh then there is no discussion.<p>Was salam

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#11

Unread post by Guest » Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:33 pm

Dear Husayn,<p>Lets make everything very simple. Suppose I am a Christian female and wish to marry a Muslim. Being a Christian, I believe that Muhammad is not a messenger, for if I believed he was, I would have turned a Muslim. If at marriage I were to say the kalima, accept Muhammad as prophet and Ali as Wali, I would be a Muslim; perhaps not a Mu'min according to Bohra beliefs. Nevertheless, the permission to marry "people of the Book" does not apply to me because now I have turned a Muslim. It is equivalent to me converting a Muslim and then getting married. So my question is why is that permission there in Qur'an?<p>Regards,<br>Musalmaan

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#12

Unread post by Guest » Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:35 pm

Sorry, I got your point now.

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#13

Unread post by Guest » Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:40 pm

So what you are suggesting is that a non-Bohra Muslim needs to take Misaq and anyone from people of the Book does not? <p>Which in effect means that anyone who believes in Bibles and Gospels but not in Muhammad is from people of the Book, but someone who believes in Qur'an and Muhammad but not Ali is a non-Muslim?<p>Musalmaan

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#14

Unread post by Guest » Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:16 am

Salaams All<p>Addressing to Br. Husayn.<p>You have stated:<p>"The Quran states that this applies except for People of Book and they are to abide by their book....I cannot name an amil who would deny one the marriage can you?"<p>Yes I can name the 'authorities' that deny marriage to people of the book 'as they are'.<p>The powers that be demand conversion to the 'bohri faith; regardless if the bride is a 'person of the book'. This demand comes from the khotar and Dai directly and completely contradicts what the Holy Quran states. <p>the letter I posted earlier proves this point clearly.<p>Aleem<p>

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#15

Unread post by Guest » Wed Feb 28, 2001 6:23 am

Assalaamu alekum aleem,musalmaan,husayn and anonymous.<p>There has been a quite informative and good discussion on this topic.However, I feel the originator of this topic (anonymous) seems to be looking for a solution to a practical problem. Recapitulating, there are two major problems for a non bohri woman marrying a bohra: 1. she would be "given away" by some one else, unless her father converts to bohra and her true father would not be allowed to join the wedding. 2. the horrible letter from sydena posted by aleem.<p>With regards to this, I would like to rephrase MUSALMAAN's question.<p>IS THERE ANY AMIL ON THIS PLANET WHO WOULD DO A NIKAH WITHOUT THE MISAAQ,ADOPTION BY A BOHRA AND SIGNING THE HORRIBLE LETTER.If anyone can answer this, I think the discussion would be a bit more fruitful.Husayn please pardon me if i am rude.<p>Salaam,<p>sufi

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#16

Unread post by Guest » Wed Feb 28, 2001 11:14 am

And anonymous, you might want to see a copy of the Misaq at http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/issues/mi ... nteresting document it is.<p>Musalmaan

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#17

Unread post by Guest » Wed Feb 28, 2001 11:27 am

Anonymous,<p>On rereading your posting, you have asked what Qur'an says in this regard. Qur'an has addressed a believer directly and stated that one may marry one, or two or three or four in an honourable contract; and deal with all of them justly. Pay them dowry before consummation of the marriage.<p>After Islam, Muhammad married Ayesha through Abu Bakr because she had not attained puberty as yet. There are numerous incidents both in Shi'ite texts and Sunni hadith texts where Nikkah was conducted between the groom and the bride along with witnesses. Infact many females were also captives of the war and there was no requirement of adoption as such. Islam does not sanction adoption in its purest form. Muhammad married Zainab, divorced wife of his adopted son Zayd, thereby explaining that adoption has no sanctity.<p>Regards,<br>Omer

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#18

Unread post by Guest » Wed Feb 28, 2001 3:09 pm

Assalamu alaykum<br>There are several responses to my statements and I would like to respond.<br>I will state firstly as most on this board are not, experts in fiqh, nor pretend to be given fatwas on anything, only reiterating the things I have learned. With that stated...<p>Br. Aleem,<br>You reference to the misaq doesn't say that the christian or jew is to convert to Islam (though highly recommended). It says the woman must follow the laws of Islam as interpreted by the Dai. This was the same with those that were under the control of the Fatimid Imams. The people, whatever their religion, had to follow the rules of Islamic law in general public in order to be protected by the Imam, though personally did not.<p>Br. Sufi,<br>To answer your question..no an amil wouldn't. In order for a woman to be married bohra..the woman is part of the Ummah as charged by the Imam only when they have taken the misaq (oath to the Imam.. and his Dai in his ghaybat). This is what the Prophet, the Imams, and their Dais after practiced. I don't see how a bohra mumin would be able to uphold his oath (misaq) when his wife is not taking the oath. Like I said conversion and taking an oath of following the rules of Islamic Law are two different things. It is assumed both believe in the Allah (God) and the Prophets of the other books as stated in the misaq. This is why a muslim cannot marry one who is not at least a jew or a christian.<p>Br. Musalman,<br>The Prophet performed the nikah with Ayesha at her age being reported either at 9, 11, and 14. It is documented via hadith that the marriage was not consummated until she had reached puberty. This is why Ithna Ashari Shiah consider a female that the has reached the age of 9 eligible for marriage. She was already a muslim and had taken the oath to the Prophet. This also applies to those of other marriages both of the Prophet and his companions.<p>I ask for Allah ta'Ala forgiveness and pardon if I have stated something incorrect. I ask the brothers/sisters to correct me if so.<br>Was salam alaykum<br>

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#19

Unread post by Guest » Wed Feb 28, 2001 7:01 pm

As salam o Aleikum Husayn,<p>What you exactly mean to say is that I may accept to obey law as set up by Allah, Muhammad, Imams and Dais, thereby believing in them and yet be called a non-Muslim?<p>Regards,<br>Musalmaan

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#20

Unread post by Guest » Wed Feb 28, 2001 7:45 pm

assalaamu alekum husayn and all,<p>according to husayn,"...conversion and taking an oath of following the rules of Islamic Law are two different things. .."<p>but from the misaq( http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/issues/misaq.htm), any rational muslim can say that obeying the islamic law and obeying the misaaq are entirely different things. It is quite obvious that the MOST part of the misaaq is not asking to obey islamic laws. And this is not my viewpoint, anyone can make out by comparing the misaaq and the Qura'n.<p>Salaam,<p>Sufi.

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#21

Unread post by Guest » Wed Feb 28, 2001 8:39 pm

Assalamu alaykum<br>Let me give an example:<br>Majority of the world's countries have an oath of allegiance with its particular stimpulations (whether they are secular and/or religous). You must abide by those oath and the laws of that country via the oath. In most cases, you would have to die for that country if it went to war by law (whether you support the beliefs of the war or not).<p>This example illustrates the misaq. According to Imamiyah thought, the ummah is ruled/governor/guided by the Imam az'Zaman and the misaq is the oath to the Imam and his ummah (Islamic nation/people). The rule of the Imam includes muslims and non-muslims alike, but all must follow the laws of the land whether they believe in them or not if they want to live there. In the case of the Islamic nation following the shariah, and the only exception are found in the Qur'an and sunnah for both muslim and non-muslims. This is the misaq and bayah of the Allah, the Prophet, the Imams and their Dais.<p>I ask for forgiveness and guidance from Allah if I have state something incorrect. Please correct me brothers/sisters if incorrect. <br>Was salams

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#22

Unread post by Guest » Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:25 am

As salam o Aleikum Husayn, once again,<p>The example did not convince me.<p>Religious law is very much different from the state law, for the former is personal, while latter is public. Public law can be changed, I do not care; American Muslims live under secular government, which does not compromise their religious beliefs.<p>As soon as you define private law, religious beliefs are affected. In short, in today's time religion is different from state.<p>So my question, which you did not address directly anyways, is that is it possible for a non-Muslim to believe the law of Allah, Muhammad, Imam, Dai and yet be a non-Muslim?<p>Regards,<br>Musalmaan

Guest

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#23

Unread post by Guest » Thu Mar 01, 2001 6:54 am

Salaam Anonymous,<p>If a Hindu girl converts to Islam, then it is permissible for a Muslim to marry her. No-one should prevent the lawful and consented marriage a believing man to a believing unmarried woman. I've never heard about any requirement of the girl's father to be Muslim. The Quran doesn't mention any such rule. Please correct me if I am wrong.<p>The Quran (5:5) says this about marriage with People of the Book (Jews and Christians):<p>"This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."<p><br>

juzarkarjat
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:52 am

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#24

Unread post by juzarkarjat » Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:50 am

Hi all you
i m in relationship with a hindu girl scince last 6yrs ,and we r serious abut our future lyf .....she is ready to give missaq and marry me and follow the traditions of dawoodi bohra ,and she is perfect girl to me ...can it is allowed to marry her in our religion? .plz reply me ...

Ummul Bani
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:09 am

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#25

Unread post by Ummul Bani » Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:09 am

Bro Juzerkarjat,

You can marry her after she converts and accepts Islam.

These kind of queries have been answered several times on this forum. Do search with appropriate keywords to get the thread relevant to your query or for further questions on this subject.

juzarkarjat
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:52 am

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#26

Unread post by juzarkarjat » Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:18 am

I hav read al the queries ,, but i need to b guided.. As i dont know wat to do ... My parents are opposed to this marraige ,how do i convince ..? Can i bring raza for this from aqa maula ?

Haqq_Prevails
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:51 pm

Re: Wedding rules in the Bohra Community

#27

Unread post by Haqq_Prevails » Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:10 am

juzarkarjat wrote:I hav read al the queries ,, but i need to b guided.. As i dont know wat to do ... My parents are opposed to this marraige ,how do i convince ..? Can i bring raza for this from aqa maula ?
Who is your moula?