Halal Fish

[SENSODYNE]

What is the concept of halal fish?

Thanks

[Gulf]

Halal Fish???

Some member here (Oma, safiudin, smart, etc) don't even know what Halal is

Let me try but you have to bear with my horrific way of english

Firstly, I have been tought since my childhood is that we can only eat fish with scales. so that narrows down the category clearly.

Secondly, I should follow to categorize a halal fish is that I only eat fish which I myself have caught or bought when it was alive in the water. (please note the basic factor is that the fish should be alive when it comes out of the water).

If I catch a dead fish from the water, that becomes a non halal fish. that is why I do not buy frozen fish, tuna fish is dabba etc. or eat out any seafood in restaurants, because there is no guarantee that the fish being bought or eaten if whether it was alive whenever it came out of water. (doubt is that when fishermen catch huge quantities of fish in the net, not sure that 100% of the catch fish is alive. it may also contain dead fishes... please do not doubt that dead fish can not catch in the net )

Hence a fish with scale that is alive when taken out of the water is HALAL.

But unfortunately the majority of the progressives here on aboard do not believe this, they believe everything from the sea is halal, so it is automatically understood for you that you are at wrong place to ask such query

[ozmujaheed]

Courtesy :http://www.ifanca.org/newsletter/2002_09.htm

How diverse is the view but if we hold Quran paramount then I (OZM) agree with the Majority Sunni and will eat any edible seafood with clear conscious.

SEAFOOD - WHAT'S HALAL, WHAT'S NOT
Seafood The use of the term 'seafood' in this article refers to all non-plant life coming from permanent bodies of water, including rivers, lakes, seas and oceans. There are a number of differing opinions when it comes to the Halal or haram status of seafood. The Quran states:

Lawful to you is the pursuit of water-game and its use for food, for the benefit of yourselves and those who travel; but forbidden is the pursuit of land-game, as long as you are in the state of Ihram (for Hajj or Umrah). And fear ALLAH, to Whom you shall be gathered back. Al-Ma-ida: 96

And it is HE Who has subjected the sea (to you), that you may eat thereof fresh tender meat, and that you may extract out of it ornaments to wear. And you see the ships ploughing through it, that you may seek (thus) of the HIS bounty (by transporting the goods from place to place) and that you may be grateful. An-Nahl: 14

And the two seas (kinds of water) are not alike: this is fresh, sweet and pleasant to drink, and that is salt and bitter. And from them both you eat fresh tender meat, and extract ornaments that you wear. And you see the ships cleaving (the sea water as they sail through it), that you may seek of HIS bounty, and that you may give thanks. Fatir: 12

This ayat state that it is lawful to fish for food. In fact ALLAH, Subhanahu wa ta'ala, has subjected the seas to human beings, so they may partake of their Bounty and benefit by what has been provided. In addition, there are a number of Ahadith that also address the subject of seafood.

LobsterIn a long Hadith, a group of Sahaba ran out of food on a journey and came upon a huge sea creature, often referred to as a fish or a huge fish and sometimes referred to as a whale, washed up on the shore. The Sahaba referred to it as ‘Anbar. They debated whether it was permissible to eat from it because it was already dead, but finally decided their need for food exempted them should there be any sin in it. After returning home and informing the Prophet, salla ALLAHu alaihi wa sallam, they were told it was a blessing provided to them by ALLAH. It was Halal. In another Hadith we learn that frogs should not be killed and fish can be eaten. A different narration says that frogs are haram.

The Islamic scholars have studied the question of what seafood can be eaten and they have reached a number of different opinions. First, there are some who believe only live catches are Halal. If the object is found dead, it comes under the ayah prohibiting the consumption of dead land animals and it too is haram. Others see that seafood is exempted from this restriction and use the Hadith about the ‘Anbar to justify their opinion.

Fried Fish As to the species of sea creature that is permitted, all have agreed that fish, with scales, are Halal. Some have opined that anything, which can only live in water, is Halal while creatures that can live in and out of the water are haram. The latter would include crabs, turtles, frogs, etc. Another opinion is that only fish with scales are Halal and other creatures are not. This group believes that lobster, shrimp, octopus, eels, etc. are not permitted. Another group believes that creatures resembling Halal land animals are Halal while those resembling haram land animals are haram.

Finally, on the issue of being caught live or found dead, one opinion is that all seafood is Halal while another opines that if the Halal species is found dead in the water or on land, it is haram. A Hadith supports each opinion.

Oyster In summary, all scholars are in agreement that fish with scales are Halal. Most also agree that all fish are Halal. While some opinions say everything that can only live in the water is Halal, others conclude that only those sea creatures resembling Halal land creatures are Halal. Most agree that frogs are not permitted. All agree that live fish are Halal no matter how long after they are caught. Some conclude any fish is Halal, whether it is caught live or found dead. Others believe fish found dead are haram.

Of course, all this applies to the seafood itself. As far as cooked or processed seafood, any added ingredients, flavors or cooking methods that introduce haram ingredients would make the seafood haram. Onion

[anajmi]

Consider the difference between the above 2 responses. One produced clear references and one didn't produce any reference.

[SBM]

In USA, it is illegal to catch and sell dead fish. If the fish caught by commercial fishermen or sport fishermen on the sea or lake are dead and of certain size (less than 12" in size) they have to throw it back to sea or lake. This law is very strictly enforced by US Coast Guard and marin petrol officers so all fishes in USA are Halal according to being alive.
According to Mulla Gulpie, every Bohar has to be a fisherman as per his/her quote" I only eat fish which I myself have caught"
MIGHT BE HE/SHE SHOULD ADVISE SYEDNA AND HIS ELKS TO GO FOR FISHING INSTEAD OF HUNTING IN AFRICA.

[Gulf]

According to Mulla Gulpie, every Bohar has to be a fisherman as per his/her quote" I only eat fish which I myself have caught"

oma, I know you are too busy in MP election which going to be held by the end of next month, your defeat is guaranteed thats why you are upset a lot... but it doesn't mean that you should read anything incomplete.... please read again carefully....

halal fish is that I only eat fish which I myself have caught or bought when it was alive in the water. (please note the basic factor of my saying is, that the fish should be alive when it comes out of the water).

[SBM]

Gulp
As per your comment frozen fish may not be halal, how would some one who does not live close to sea or lake and they can only receive frozen fish. Can you plese explain how they can eat seafood.

[jayanti]

Forget it!

[Danish]

The ONLY edible prohibition which the ancient quran states is that of 1) dead carcuses, 2) blood, 3) flesh of pigs and 4) animals dedicated to other than the name of Allah (2:173, 5:3, 6:145, 16:115).

The 3) and 4) are "reformed" and does not constitute ancient beliefs. The 4) is plain stupidity. Today, there's no such thing as "halaal" or "haraam" (only in Arabized Muslim theology) and only the ardent Muslim thuggists or the Arabized extremists concur.

[danishwar]

danish,
It is always easy to criticise with the reasons suited to one's mind.
Islam has a concept,rules and a setup of lifestyle for its followers.
You like it or not its your decision.
But when you reject this you must comeup with a new design ,a set up which has a capacity to guide a scholar and a common man at the same time.

You need to present your ism which is capable enoughto replace the rules established by Islam.
lets start with the present topic;
what your danishm says about the seafood,is everything from sea is ok to eat or not and why?

[SENSODYNE]

Thank you for all your replies. They have been very helpful.

I think some members of the Jewish faith do not mix fish and milk together. And also only eat fish with scales.

[Danish]

The bottom line is to eat and drink whatever you like and whatever is good within your means and taste without making any superficial fusses. Health concerns can limit even good food and surviving life threatening starvation has no limits.

[JC]

Hi Danish, welcome!

Guys I tend to agree with Danish. Why all this fuss about eating or not eating, halal or haram. Eat what suits you - health-wise and other-wise. If you have reasons to believe eating something is not good for you, then do not. SIMPLE

[ghulam muhammed]

All the above posts are informative in their own way. It is an accepted fact worldwide that seafood is considered to be the best among all the non-vegetarian food. It is considered to be better then meat, beef and chicken and it has got very less cholestrol due to which it is permitted even for people with heart ailments.

Now, has anyone wondered that inspite of all the benefits, why it is the least preffered food amongst bohras ? Why is there so much restriction on it due to which it is never served at any bohra functions like marriage receptions, engagement parties or even niyaz ? Bohras are even specifically instructed to make sure that the fish they eat is alive when it reaches them, the bohras are instructed to put their hand on it and recite Bismillah before cutting them. All this makes it quite difficult and cumbersome to have fish on a regular basis and hence bohras seldom relish the seafood. It is even considered a grave sin to eat fish which has not passed the above rituals due to which bohras prefer to avoid "Mareli macchi".

This is a very clever ploy of the kothar. The fact of the matter is that other then the above mentioned benefits of eating seafood there is one more most important quality in it. SEAFOOD IS A TONIC FOR BRAINS. This has been proved scientifically at many places. That is why fish is the staple food of some of the most intellegent people like Japanese, Konkanis, Bengalis, Keralities etc. Hence kothar doesnt want the gullible bohras to have intellegence and so it popularises the dalda made junkfood prepared by the U.P. ka bhatiyaras which keeps the masses dumb and reduces the power to think, argue and revolt. This is one of the many tricks to keep the bohras under control and rule over them without having a fear that bohras will ever question their governance.

Believe me, this is not a small issue and it has got far reaching consequences. History has shown that certain ruthless rulers have at times injected slow poison to their subjects or have tried various slow but effective process of weakening their minds.

[SENSODYNE]

Dear Ghulam Muhammed bhai,

I have to point out that these fish rules are practiced by other faith groups. So the bohras are not alone. I also have to question the link between intelligence and eating fish as part of balanced diet.

This would mean the masses of strict vegetarians in india would be less intelligent. I do not beleive this to be true.

[Mamluk-E-Syedna]

I just couldn't stop laughing after reading the above post. "Gadhera ne Taav Aave Ehvi Vaat Karey Chhe."

[ghulam muhammed]

Br.Sensodyne,

Iam not questioning the correctness of fish rules. Iam only trying to point out as to how best it is tried by kothar to restrict the seafood diet. Regarding intellegence part, I still say that fish is a very good stimulant for brains and that people having seafood as their staple diet are more sharp and clever. This does not mean that others including vegetarians are dumb and not intellegent. Its like many people who do regular exercises and muscle building are strong but that doesnt mean that the ones who dont exercise are weak and dont have strength. Regarding fish acting as tonics for brain, I will post a detailed write up by reputed and recognized medical institues in due course

[ozmujaheed]

I think and it is my opinion that fish not being common in the diet is to be for cultural reasons.

Sea food is very difficult to keep catch and keep fresh and the alive fish is to do to prove hygiene, now I do not know if that Bohras decided on this fatwa while in Arabia, North Africa , Yemen or India.

Bohra traditions and faith is based more on mythology and less on pragmatism or Quran. Gulam is correct on the brain power issue however it is more a consequence of the fatwa than an intentional conspiracy !

[asad]

@Porus/Adam

can any one of you or others point me to reference from Bohra books where it says we need to say bismillah by rubbing hand on the fish to make it halal. And why cant i eat fish just like other Muslims by the command in Quran as stated above by others.

[pheonix]

@Porus/Adam

can any one of you or others point me to reference from Bohra books where it says we need to say bismillah by rubbing hand on the fish to make it halal. And why cant i eat fish just like other Muslims by the command in Quran as stated above by others.

Rubbing hands and bismillah is just a ritual. The important thing is that the fish not be dead when you catch it. Rubbing hands on it while it is alive is a way to ensure that fish was not dead.

[asad]

@Porus/Adam

can any one of you or others point me to reference from Bohra books where it says we need to say bismillah by rubbing hand on the fish to make it halal. And why cant i eat fish just like other Muslims by the command in Quran as stated above by others.

Rubbing hands and bismillah is just a ritual. The important thing is that the fish not be dead when you catch it. Rubbing hands on it while it is alive is a way to ensure that fish was not dead.

Thanks Pheonix,

I just wanted to know whether its written somewhere or just tradition we are following up.

[porus]

@Porus/Adam

can any one of you or others point me to reference from Bohra books where it says we need to say bismillah by rubbing hand on the fish to make it halal. And why cant i eat fish just like other Muslims by the command in Quran as stated above by others.

Nothing, as far as I know, is required to make an animal 'halaal'. All animals not expressly forbidden (haraam) for consumption are deemed halaal. That is so according to ayat 6:145. Daimul Islam goes into great lengths about slaughtering of 'halaal' animals. Strangely enough, it does not offer much advice on slaughtering fish. It offers advice on slaughtering animals with 'necks'. I am not clear whether fish have necks.

Fish which have scales are deemed halaal. Ali ibn Abi Talib is quoted in the Daimul Islam as saying that fish that have died before being caught are 'haraam'. So, it is important to ensure that you buy fish which shows some sign of life.

When it comes to slaughtering an animal, including fish, you have to abide by ayats 6:121 and 6:145. That is, a halaal fish (one with scales) should have its head turned towards Qibla and Bismillah should be invoked before slaughtering it.

To summarize, you do not make fish halaal. You have to eat only halaal fish as specified in Quran and Daimul Islam. Before slaughtering it, you should invoke God's name on it, as required by the Quran.

[anajmi]

Fish which have scales are deemed halaal. Ali ibn Abi Talib is quoted in the Daimul Islam as saying that fish that have died before being caught are 'haraam'. So, it is important to ensure that you buy fish which shows some sign of life.

So haraam is dead before being "caught" or dead before being "bought"?

If it is dead before being "caught", then all fish become halaal as the fish caught are most likely to have been alive at the time they are caught. Ofcourse, they'd be dead by the time they came to the market.

[level_headed]

Aali Qadr Maula in his Ashara waaz(this year) mentioned that you do not need to slaughter the fish. Just saying bismillah should suffice.
Regarding not eating dead fish, I remember one of Syedi Sadiqali saheb's nasihat mentioning not to eat dead fish. Cannot recollect now

[level_headed]

Dawoodi Bohra rules on fish
All fish which do not have scales are haraam(dead or alive do not matter).
All fish which have scales and are caught alive and have had bismillah said on it before they die are halal.
All fish which have scales and are caught alive but do not have had bismillah said on it before they die are haraam.
All fish which have scales and are caught or found dead are haraam.

[humble_servant_us]

As i understand eating of a dead animal is haraam for all and not particular to fish. Even a chicken or goat if dead cannot be eaten. We buy a goat or chicken from a muslim believing that it was not dead and he would have done the correct zabiha for it but when it comes to a fish we do not trust anyone and want to see it alive. For a fish there is nothing like a zabiha, so the rules of zabiha which are applicable to other animals do not apply. So eating a fish should be simpler compared to eating a goat or chicken. Logically we have to be more stringent while buying chicken or goat compared to fish but somehow the rules put forward by Bohras have made it very difficult to eat fish.

There might be dead fishes but do they come up in the nets or they are thrown out by water to the shore or eaten by other water animals. What is the probability of catching a dead fish. Is it not sufficient to trust the fisherman who confirms the fish was alive when fished.

Have we understood this ruling correctly or there is something misssing in it. Fish is supposed to be the best food in the world , wondering why would Allah(swt) make it so difficult to eat the best food in the world.

[asad]

Why is there a difference in understanding the Ayat of Quran. Quran doesnt say anything about scales or fins and Majority Muslims dont have any qualms about eating anything coming out from Sea (i have seen sharks on sale in Arab countries). Does Daim gives any reference from Quran or Hadeeth on its Fish rules, or its just the word of Syedna Qadi Noman we have to believe.

What is the Bohra rule for Shrimps, Oysters, crabs.
If a Muslim says he caught the fish alive, then can it be eaten or it needs to be verified by our own eyes, why not the same rule applied to meat/chicken where we believe the word of Muslim butcher infact we even eat of meat of ahle kitabs, but why so much issue with Fish. Infact its said one cant even ask a Muslim Butcher if the meat is halal, we have to believe it will be halal.

I have recentrly heard Syedi Mufaddal as saying that if one has eaten dead fish then in akhirat the flesh which was made from the food will be taken out from the body.

[ozmujaheed]

Levelhead

What is the significance of not having scales ? Fish is fish? Some are poisonous but having scales does not mean they are not poisonous or carnivorous?

As per bohra Saying bismillah on a fish makes it halal , but in land animals halal process also means blood has to be drained, cut the jagular, give a drink of water , so by your definition this does not apply to fish? Why because it is not practical ! So how practical is to catch a deep sea fish in their millions keep it alive and then one at a time say bismillah and that by a bohra because a Muslim person will not understand why he is doing this with the fish.

Was sayedna sadiqali a fisherman who could envisage the 21st century fishing advancement better that what qua ran prescribed ? I do not think so.

About not eating dead fish it is more from a hygiene perspective , we are not saying a lazy bohra walks on the beach and collects dead washed up fish and takes it home. In modern times most people especially in western world buy farmed or fish caught in commercial ships. Somebody makes sure the fish are not spoiled.

[anajmi]

Bro Muslim First asked me to post this link as he is unable to post for some reason.

http://www.islamhelpline.net/node/820

[porus]

Bohras follow general guidelines of the Quran when it comes to eating fish. For specifics, Daimul Islam can be referenced.

Imam Jafar al-Sadiq has laid out specific guidance about which sea food is halaal. This has been detailed in "The Book of Food" of Daimul Islam. The book does not give reasons for these pronouncements.

The following sea creatures are halaal:

1. Fish with scales
2. Whales

The following sea creatures are considered haraam:

1. Creatures which have no scales
2. Tortoise
3. Crabs (including shrimp, lobster and other creatures of the same family)
4. Eels
5. All kinds of shellfish
6. All halaal sea creatures which were already dead when caught.

Of course, other Muslim ulama may not agree with Imam Jafar al-Sadiq. For reasons, please pray for Imam Jafar al-Sadiq to reveal them in your dreams.