Asghar Engineer...Scholar??

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Asghar Engineer...Scholar??

#1

Unread post by Guest » Tue Mar 20, 2001 3:42 pm

It's a trifle unfortunate that the half-truths on third-rate, stuttering videotapes, treacherously transacted, have totally swept away the truth or otherwise of Islam being the rationale for the destruction of the Buddha in Bamiyan. <p>Star TV had, of course, done its usual rope trick on the theme. In its weekly debating show called 'The Big Fight', it had already drawn its conclusion by labelling the topic of discussion as 'Is Islam Getting Talebanised?' What it had thereby pre-empted was the possibility that what the Taleban had done was in conformity with Islam; what was put up for discussion, instead, was whether the Taleban was de-Islamising Islam or vitiating Islam. <p>The perpetrators themselves were clear about their deed. On March 5, Reuters reported from Kabul that Mullah Mohammad Omar, the supreme leader of Afghanistan's ruling Taleban movement, defended his order to destroy the historic Buddha statues as an honour to Islam. He said Islamic principles ordered their annihilation. <p>Support for this stand came from Harkat-ul-Mujahideen, a terrorist outfit<br>operating in Jammu and Kashmir state. In a statement, the group said, 'In an Islamic country there is no concept of idols and our holy Prophet taught us to break idols.' <p>However, the contrary view was sought to be taken by two of the three Star TV debaters -- both Muslim. One of them was Prof Javed Habib, described as belonging to an obscure Babri Masjid Action Committee International, and Asghar Ali Engineer, whose views as a Muslim scholar gets red carpet treatment in all our 'secular' newspapers. While Prof Habib was quite wishy-washy but insistent that the teachings of Islam could not be changed by the Taleban --- just as the Gita's message could not be changed by anyone --- Engineer talked of the liberal core of Islam. <p>Those views were not challenged by the third participant, Seshadri Chary, editor of the RSS mouthpiece The Organiser. The man must be more knowledgeable about Hindutva than Islam. <p>Consider Engineer's mention of the benign Sufism in Islam's universe. Yes, Sufism is based on the view propounded by Hussein Ibn Mansoor Al Hallaj that there is no difference between God and man or God and self -- a<br>manifestation really of the Advait philosophy in Hinduism. However, neither Chary nor the two panellists nor the anchor nor the audience knew enough -- or had the courage -- to remind Engineer that although thought to be a face of Islam, Sufism is not recognised in Islam. <p>Incidentally, another Muslim preacher had tried to introduce a new thought among his people but he was hanged in 1850. His preaching was continued as the Bahai movement by one Mirza Hussein Ali. Its main tenets were: religion must be consistent with scientific temper, each individual must use<br>intelligence to search for the truth, and society must be founded on the concept of justice with everyone having equal opportunities and equal rights. Result? The Bahai sect was excommunicated from Islam in 1939. <p>Take the fate of another Muslim preacher, Mirza Gulam Mohamed, who founded the Mehdi sect in Punjab in 1890. Alternatively known as Ahmediya, the main tenets of this sect were that Mohammed was not the last prophet, that jihad should be limited to self-defence and not for propagating religion, and that the Ulemas are not required for the interpretation of Islamic laws. Those views grew amongst many Muslims. Result? The Ahmediyas were branded as heretics; they were tortured and their mosques razed to the ground, with Pakistan being in the forefront of that cleansing. Finally, the central organisation of the Muslim countries, World Muslim League, excommunicated the sect from Islamic religion. <p>In short, evidence shows that no change from within is acceptable to Islam, the religion founded in 610 by the one known as Mohammed the Prophet, the one who is said to have had a vision of the angels while sitting alone in<br>prayer on a hill named Heera, near Mecca. The messages he received there from God were codified in the 114 chapters of Quran while his own sayings were recorded in four 'Hadiths' -- the traditions of the Prophet. <p>And what does the Quran say about idols, such as the Buddha statues in Bamiyan, or about idol worshippers? <p>According to what Engineer said on Star TV, 'The Quran does not contain a single word against idols or statues.' If he, director of the Institute of Islamic Studies, Mumbai, says so, it must be so, isn't it? But let's look nevertheless at several specific references to idols in the Quran as explained<br>by either Yusufali or Pickthal or Shakir, three known experts of Islam, whose interpretation is different only in the choice of words, not in essence. <p>Chapter 4, verse 76 -- Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! The devil's strategy is ever weak -- Pickthal <p>Chapter 5, verse 90 -- O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination, --- of Satan's handwork; eschew such, that ye may prosper. -- Yusufali<p>Chapter 9, verse 5 -- Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. -- Pickthal<p>Chapter 9, verse 17 -- It is not for the idolaters to tend Allah's sanctuaries, bearing witness against themselves of disbelief. As for such, their works are vain and in the Fire they will abide. -- Pickthal <p>Chapter 9, verse 28 -- O you who believe! The idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of his grace if He pleases; surely Allah is Knowing Wise. -- Shakir <p>Chapter 14, verse 35 -- Remember Abraham said: O my Lord! Make this city one of peace and security, and preserve me and my sons from worshipping idols. -- Yusufali <p>Chapter 21, verse 57 -- And by Allah! I will certainly do something against your idols after you go away, turning back. -- Shakir <p>Chapter 21, verse 58 -- So he broke them to pieces, (all) but the biggest of them, that they might turn (and address themselves) to it. -- Yusufali <p>Chapter 22, verse 30 -- That (is the command). And whoso magnifieth the sacred things of Allah, it will be well for him in the sight of his Lord. The cattle are lawful unto you save that which hath been told you. So shun the filth of idols, and shun lying speech. -- Pickthal <p>Chapter 29, verse 17 -- For ye do worship idols besides Allah, and ye invent falsehood. The things that ye worship besides Allah have no power to give you sustenance: then seek ye sustenance from Allah, serve Him, and be grateful to Him: to Him will be your return. -- Yusufali <p>Chapter 29, verse 25 -- And he said: "For you, ye have taken (for worship) idols besides Allah, out of mutual love and regard between yourselves in this life; but on the Day of Judgement ye shall disown each other and curse each other: and your abode will be the Fire, and ye shall have none to help." -- Yusufali <p>Chapter 39, verse 17 -- And those who put away false gods lest they should worship them and turn to Allah in repentance, for them there are glad tidings. Therefore give good tidings (O Muhammad) to My bondmen. -- Pickthal <p>Chapter 98, verse 6 -- Lo! those who believe, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings. -- Pickthal. <p>So 'the Quran does not contain a single word against idols or statues' is it? Tell us another, Mr Engineer. <p>Tailpiece: If Islam does not sanction the demolition of idols, was Prophet Mohammed being un-Islamic when, after entering Mecca, he demolished 360 idols? And isn't a Muslim, Taleban or otherwise, expected to emulate his Prophet in every respect? We infidels await enlightenment. <p>http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/mar/20arvind.htm



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#2

Unread post by Guest » Tue Mar 20, 2001 4:59 pm

Whoever posted this article here obviously believes that the writer - Arvind Lavkare - is telling the truth. I do not wish to speak for Asghar Ali Engineer but it's obvious that he's quoting Engineer out of context. True, idols are mentioned in the Quran but not in the context that provides the Taliban the rationale to demolish statues. For your enlightentment please read the article on the subject on the front page of this web site. Also, send it to Mr Lavkare for his enlightenment - which he so desperately seeks.



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#3

Unread post by Guest » Thu Mar 22, 2001 1:44 pm

Mr. Hypocrite says one thing in 'secular' forums and another in 'Islamic' forums!



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#4

Unread post by Guest » Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:24 pm

Did you actually watch the interview or taking Mr Lavkare's word for it?



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#5

Unread post by Guest » Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:41 pm

Just some points...I am not declaring anything and I do not know much about it either. I am most interested in Taliban, not much in Dr Ali Asghar Engineer.<p>Qur'an mentions in al-Kafirun, say Prophet that your religion is for you, and mine for me. It is directly addressed idolators, as the name and the first verse of the chapter mentions.<p>Then an obvious question that comes to one's mind is why did Muhammad abolish those statues in Ka'abah. Perhaps, one was the obvious reason that there was a clash, Ka'abah was Muslim Holy House and idolators inside a mosque for example do require us to take action. And one point to note is that Muhammad did not abolish those statues before migration?<p>These are the arguments that go against the Taliban, especially the fact that at the time Muhammad abolished idols, according to most prominent history versions, entire Mecca had embraced Islam. But even if entire Mecca hadn't, Muslims had conquered the city and to establish their house of worship, they would have demolished idols anyway. In this age of globalization, things are not as simple. Only followers of a religion within a particular city or state are not affected today; many outsiders of a faith are also affected. We would be affected too if Masjid Al-Aqsa were turned down by Israelis.<p>Taliban could have taken a stance that such an action has been "democratically" approved by majority of our people and we have to do something which our people want. There is no democracy and thats not what Taliban said. Muhammad did not say abolish a statue where ever you see it. He did not imply that either. And neither did he say statues are good for health, dont turn them down. What Islam really condems is idol worship on a Muslims part.<p>But Taliban said something along the lines "Islam requires this" or "it is not allowed in Islam". I am confused about that, where does Islam say that? If someone knows, do post.<p>At the end, all I can say is that no country has any right to interfere in internal matters of a sovereign state. And above all, India who abolished Buddhism way back and removed all its idols is shouting for Buddha statues in Afghanistan. Is it because of Buddah, or is it because of Taliban or Islam?



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#6

Unread post by Guest » Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:42 pm

Just some points...I am not declaring anything and I do not know much about it either. I am most interested in Taliban, not much in Dr Ali Asghar Engineer.<p>Qur'an mentions in al-Kafirun, say Prophet that your religion is for you, and mine for me. It is directly addressed idolators, as the name and the first verse of the chapter mentions.<p>Then an obvious question that comes to one's mind is why did Muhammad abolish those statues in Ka'abah. Perhaps, one was the obvious reason that there was a clash, Ka'abah was Muslim Holy House and idolators inside a mosque for example do require us to take action. And one point to note is that Muhammad did not abolish those statues before migration?<p>These are the arguments that go against the Taliban, especially the fact that at the time Muhammad abolished idols, according to most prominent history versions, entire Mecca had embraced Islam. But even if entire Mecca hadn't, Muslims had conquered the city and to establish their house of worship, they would have demolished idols anyway. In this age of globalization, things are not as simple. Only followers of a religion within a particular city or state are not affected today; many outsiders of a faith are also affected. We would be affected too if Masjid Al-Aqsa were turned down by Israelis.<p>Taliban could have taken a stance that such an action has been "democratically" approved by majority of our people and we have to do something which our people want. There is no democracy and thats not what Taliban said. Muhammad did not say abolish a statue where ever you see it. He did not imply that either. And neither did he say statues are good for health, dont turn them down. What Islam really condems is idol worship on a Muslims part.<p>But Taliban said something along the lines "Islam requires this" or "it is not allowed in Islam". I am confused about that, where does Islam say that? If someone knows, do post.<p>At the end, all I can say is that no country has any right to interfere in internal matters of a sovereign state. And above all, India who abolished Buddhism way back and removed all its idols is shouting for Buddha statues in Afghanistan. Is it because of Buddah, or is it because of Taliban or Islam?



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#7

Unread post by Guest » Sun Mar 25, 2001 2:37 am

Muslims in India are at the mercy of the majority hindus and therefore try to dilute their religion so as not to give offense to hindus. Yes, Allah has asked us to destroy idols and kill idol-worshippers if they refuse to convert to Islam. Oh muslims do not be afraid to speak the truth!<br> Do not deny your religion and kowtow to the idolators. Allah will punish you in the hereafter for your cowardice.



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#8

Unread post by Guest » Sun Mar 25, 2001 2:38 pm

You are absolutely right. Let's destory all idols, and they will destroy all mosques. Let's rape their mothers and sisters, and they will rape our mothers and sisters. Let's kill all idol-worshippers, and they will kill all Allah-worshipers. <p>In the end we all will live happily ever after. Amen.



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#9

Unread post by Guest » Fri Mar 30, 2001 3:39 pm

Just think of a world with a few holy books ordering to kill the believers of other religion. What gives the right to anyone to press his own belief on to others? All you can do is preach and leave the rest to the individual. After all it might not be your god who is the creator.Its a possibility, isn't it?



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#10

Unread post by Guest » Fri Mar 30, 2001 8:28 pm

Nah, we can't think that way. That will get us confused. That might also make us come to the conclusion that someone else's religion is right. We can't accept that.<p>Each one of us has the best religion, a religion formed on faith - blind belief, prevalent in culture around us, left in legacy by our precursors and benevolently diffused by us in the acts of brainwashing to the new generations.<p>If we started doubting, we might come to know that some other God is the real God, or some other beliefs are the real beliefs. We just don't want to think that way. <p>I just want to believe in the religion I am born right with, because I have been told all my life, "Its the correct religion". Everyone else is an imposter, is telling lies and doesn't know bull; I wish they could get some enlightenment.<br>



Guest

#11

Unread post by Guest » Sat Mar 31, 2001 2:42 am

Hindus demolished babri masjid. Did the world say anything? Did the secular bohris who are so concerned about buddhist statues in Afghanistan say anything? Thousands of muslims perished. Yet people can come to your bulletin board and laugh about your religion (if you still call yourself muslim) and all you can do is make excuses and say no, no actually Islam is not against idolators etc. This even from an individual who calls himself"musalman".<br> Buddhism started in India and yet it has no presence here because it was systematically destroyed by Brahminism.This is a historical fact that can be corrobarated by reading any scholarly history text. That is what sangh parivar is trying to do to Islam and muslims in India today. <br> And by the way, I am not advocating the rape or murder of anybody and resent the fact that you chose to give my post that colour.



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#12

Unread post by Guest » Sat Mar 31, 2001 7:19 am

This is an interesting read. Dear Abdullah, Could you read my message and let me know how many times did I say I do not know this or I am not clear on this? How else do I need to say that I do not know about Taliban's action?<p>Muhammad made a treaty with idolators when he was not allowed to enter into ka'bah, and he returned, only to see that treaty was later nullified and Muslims took over Mecca by force.<p>And al-Kafirun was revealed exactly at the time of Hegira, when Muhammad was leaving Mecca, and it addressed idolators. This is what I have stated, and these are facts, not conclusions.<p>Now, if you believe Islam is against idolators, could you let me know why you think so? Islam says that one should not worship anything but God, but where does it say anything against the idolators. It says a lot to Kaafirs but remember that there is a difference between idolators and kaafirs. All idolators are not necessarily kaafirs.<p>And I call myself Musalmaan because I follow Qur'an, and then Muhammad and do not blindly follow what I am being told to, or what all Muslims follow blindly.<p>Regards,<br>Musalmaan



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#13

Unread post by Guest » Sat Mar 31, 2001 4:18 pm

The secular Bohras condemned the destruction of the Barbri masjid as much as they now denounce the destruction of Buddha statues. It's all in the public record, you can check it out.<br> It's true that Hindu fanatics are targeting Muslims (and Christians and dlaits too, why forget them) in India and it's something all sensible people (Hindus, Muslims, Christians) should address and counter Hindutva's ideological campaign. But your suggestion that Muslims too should become like Hindutava fanatics (by destroying temples) is hardly the solution. <br>In fact, Muslim bigotry plays into the hands of Hindu bigotry, one needs the other to flourish. True, you don't advocate rape and murder but that's what your kind of attitude and thinking will lead to. The minorities in India are facing tough challenges and our response should be creative, peaceful and democratic rather than rash and sentimental. Unfortunately, Muslims in India lack the leadersip they deserve. Instead, we've fanatics like you - adding fuel to the fire to the general delight of the Hindutva brigade.



Guest

#14

Unread post by Guest » Sun Apr 01, 2001 3:28 pm

The Kah'ba was built to be a house of god, not a house of idols. Muhammed was simply restoring the Kah'ba to it's true nature. If when it was built was intended as house for idol worhip, Muahammed would not have destroyed the idols.<p>There is a differnce between restoration and destruction. The Talebans destroyed the bhudist statues, whilst Muhammed restored the Kah'ba.



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#15

Unread post by Guest » Wed Apr 04, 2001 10:04 pm

Why are people (read Muslims) fear the wrath of other idolators? do what is right, as per the Quran the Prophet has shown us the way, how we should deal with idols (naturally by breaking them) so brothers do not be afraid of the Western and Hindu barbarics and idolators who are either politically motivated or cry like the RSS and BJP to insult Islam. Support the breaking of idols as that is what Islam teaches and be afraid of no one as you are following the truth.<br>"Doing right is always difficult but is always what one should do."<br>



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#16

Unread post by Guest » Wed Apr 04, 2001 10:06 pm

Why are people (read Muslims) fear the wrath of other idolators? do what is right, as per the Quran the Prophet has shown us the way, how we should deal with idols (naturally by breaking them) so brothers do not be afraid of the Western and Hindu barbarics and idolators who are either politically motivated or cry like the RSS and BJP to insult Islam. Support the breaking of idols as that is what Islam teaches and be afraid of no one as you are following the truth.<br>"Doing right is always difficult but is always what one should do."<br>



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#17

Unread post by Guest » Thu Apr 05, 2001 1:27 am

>>>Support the breaking of idols as that is what Islam teaches...<<<<p>Lets assume you are right (you offer no proof from Quran).<p>Definition of "idol": An object of worship.<br>Question: Who worships Buddha statues?<p>The aim of destroying an idol it to prevent people from worshipping it. Since nobody worshiped the Buddha statues in the first place, their destruction could very well be called a waste of dynamite.<p>More questions:<br>- Afghanistan have been ruled by Muslims for hundreds of years. Why destroy them now? Have the ulema just woken up?<br>- Should we also destroy the Pyramids and the nearby statues? Why didn't Imam Ali (AS) order their destruction when Egypt was conquered?<p>Possible answer:<br>- Taleban obtain military, financial and moral support from Wahabis in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Only Wahabis could call for senseless killing, maiming and destruction, which put the Muslim world to disgrace.<p>Flashback: April 21, 1925, destruction of Jannat al-Baqee by Wahabi king Ibn Saud.<br>