Syedna in Mumbasa

[ghulam muhammed]

this time you are guilty of interfering in their private event

Is Mohurrum vayez and the illgotten wealth accrued from it a private event ?

[GreatBarrier]

Al Zulfikar and Gulam Muhammed let me respond to your 2 statements in broader context.

Once again I am not an expert to qualify Sayedna's method of commemorating Muharam...and what is your bench mark of commerotion in 2009, is it the way it is done in Iran, Palestine, Pakistan, Udaipur...why do you belive Orthodox are lessor.

I have witnessed the bayans and though the historical events are at times questionable but what is your alternative, Progressives also rely on the same historical records which could have been modified as time goes by. I have not seen a better alternative in your governance and by your remarks recently to my postings you are as aggressive and vile as some of them. The only difrence is you are not yet in power ! In absense of a better alternative I recognise him as the leader of my community. His administration has flows like any adminsistration but overall it is tolerable and I wil give him credit where he deserves and am not filled with hate similar to you which is blinded which is looking for faults in every event. In one post you claimed I was a Kafir..and parctises which belittle Husains sacrifice..can you describe specifically how Sayednas or Bohras methods have belittled Husain AS sacrifice ..is it his sermon, is it the way Bohras congregate, is it the way we perfrom certain rituals, do you have a historical definitive program of how Muharam is to be commemorated across the planet for the next 1500 years...are you doing so as prescribed...before you try to preach Islam to me practise first and show me your results ! There is no fault if Bohras practise and add what they think is extra...civilisation has do so every where in its advances in science and lifestyle...as a example do you run half naked and eat raw planst like your ancestors...look at the photos of Udaipur some of you have worn western suits and leather jackets which by the way I am not against but you have introduced modern stuff into your lifestyles and yet you deny Bohras to introduce new practises and rituals which they feel coomfortable with.

The Bayaans of Moaula are there to attract the belivers and provide spiritual security and I notice thousands like what they hear and accept the mission. They have chosen their path as you have. I do not accept your consipracy theory which is trying to imply that everyday Kotharis wakeup, sit around a boardroom and the only thought is how do we make money from the community and con them. The profiteering is the consequence not the root cause. I at times am accepting they sincerely do believe in the well being and want bohras to live and breath like them more from an emotional affinity rather than malice. They are a conservative lot and want to defend and retain their identity at all costs. They are courageous enough to display their faith in their appearance and attire.Now similarly Islam encourages demonstrating your beleifs in your daily lives.

If Kotharis were so brutal and oppressive even the flaunting of the wealth would not bring so many beleivers to the fold and I have observed more people are turning to the fold then those born before the 60's. They must be doing something right which you are failing to see. You need to realise the Kenyan preseident is protected by Israeeli trained special forces, Moula regularly travels between Europe and Asia and if there was a hint of criminal or oppresive stain on Sayedna the leaders would have stayed far or even denied visa and media would have been on their case. Unless you 2 claim you are the few on this forum who are the smartest brains on the planet compared to the rest of the hundreds of thousands Bohras and non Bohras who have accepted him the leader of the Bohra community then you need to wake up from your dreams.

You criticise strong Bohra rules and punishment take time off the computer desk and look around you the rest of the world operates in a similar method...your job, your tax rules , etc. If you do not comply your are deported or jailed. Why do you expect Orthodox to operate more lenently and provide you more freedom then the Dunia. Even Saudi Arabia expects you comply with specific Wahabi beliefs and practises.

About building clinics do you not know Bohras do run medical centre in Mombasa and plenty of locals visit it and the medication is highly subsidized. Burhaniya schools are highly subsidized and is also multi-ethnic as there are after school colleges. You need to keep in context that Mombasa Bohra population is below 5000 and it is quite commendable they support local communities too.

Again back to to the topic ..what is wrong in Sayedna Mombasa ? An if in your mind he is wrong what would you expect your leader to do and is he doing as you demand others to do ?

[makberi]

I think one cannot prove an argument to be right or wrong based on numbers........i.e. u saying that becuz a good number of ppl follow the kothar that doesnt mean tht they are right.....if u use this argument then we can say that a much much larger number of ppl dont follow the kothar i.e. other muslims and people arnd the world.....most conservatives use this argument and this is wat leads to herd mentality........

wat alternative reformists are demanding is democratic functioning of jamaats.....u pointed out that in democratic governments also there is mishandling of funds ...but there is also accountability and answerability...ppl can question and change the management of governments if they dont like the performance of the incumbent....can u do tht with bohra jamaats???...regarding oppressive regimes like saudia arabia...we shud strongly condemn such regimes......

[like_minded]

You criticise strong Bohra rules and punishment take time off the computer desk and look around you the rest of the world operates in a similar method...your job, your tax rules , etc. If you do not comply your are deported or jailed. Why do you expect Orthodox to operate more lenently and provide you more freedom then the Dunia. Even Saudi Arabia expects you comply with specific Wahabi beliefs and practises.

Great Burhan ka chamcha

I do not want to drag you into any debate, because I know your reasoning and logic is as hollow as your bawa shafiq and his fraud kids. Chamchas like you have nothing between their ears, as your cohort gulf keeps coming back to prove exactly that.

Actually, scums like you don't know the importance and value of "freedom" The day you put a price tag on it, would be the day you will finally wake up! Till then.. live like bonded slaves of syedna.

[GreatBarrier]

You criticise strong Bohra rules and punishment take time off the computer desk and look around you the rest of the world operates in a similar method...your job, your tax rules , etc. If you do not comply your are deported or jailed. Why do you expect Orthodox to operate more lenently and provide you more freedom then the Dunia. Even Saudi Arabia expects you comply with specific Wahabi beliefs and practises.

Great Burhan ka chamcha

I do not want to drag you into any debate, because I know your reasoning and logic is as hollow as your bawa shafiq and his fraud kids. Chamchas like you have nothing between their ears, as your cohort gulf keeps coming back to prove exactly that.

Actually, scums like you don't know the importance and value of "freedom" The day you put a price tag on it, would be the day you will finally wake up! Till then.. live like bonded slaves of syedna.

Why dont you define freedom then ?

Is the choice to live as slaves not freedom too ? Or do you philosophically think a free starving person is better off then a well fed looked after slave. Mate it is all in the mind ! Depending on an individuals situation the other side looks greener.

[SBM]

"Or do you philosophically think a free starving person is better off then a well fed looked after slave. Mate it is all in the mind"
"Ghulami is do roti se Aazadi ki Maut behter hai"
That is what great people like Tipu Sultan and Sir Mohammed Iqabal said and I concur with it too.!

[Humsafar]

Once again I am not an expert to qualify Sayedna's method of commemorating Muharam...and what is your bench mark of commerotion in 2009, is it the way it is done in Iran, Palestine, Pakistan, Udaipur...why do you belive Orthodox are lessor.

Commemoration of Moharram is a solemn affair. The fanfare that attends sayedna's vaez - the foreign trips, the shopping, the food - is anything but solemn. The content of the vaez itself as reported in another thread is nothing but a re-run of the same old script. It's pure theatre, as porus once aptly described.

I have not seen a better alternative in your governance and by your remarks recently to my postings you are as aggressive and vile as some of them.

Better alternative is Udaipur and other reformist jamaats the world over. Yes, some of us may come across as aggressive but that's because they have little patience for fools. But you'd wrong to judge progressives from what you see on this forum.

The only difrence is you are not yet in power !

Who said we want to be in power? If you can say that then you have little understanding of the reform movement, its history and its agenda. Please take some time read up the material available on this site.

In absense of a better alternative I recognise him as the leader of my community.

The position of the Dai is an important part of Bohra faith. Progressives have no issues with that. The problem is that this position is being misused to deceive and loot the community. The better alternative is that either Sayedna saheb overhauls his regime or appoint a new Dai who can do so.

His administration has flows like any adminsistration but overall it is tolerable and I wil give him credit where he deserves and am not filled with hate similar to you which is blinded which is looking for faults in every event.

"Flaws" is a very charitable description of a system mired in corruption and perversity. What is it that you find "tolerable"? Extorting money from bohras every step of the way? Ex-communication and chitthi band to punish and humiliate them? Misuse of "raza" and "misaq" as instrument of coercion? The complete lack of accountability about where the money collected from people goes and where and how it is spent? The brainwashing of decent bohras into slaves of Sayedna? The complete lack control of members over the properties and affairs of their local jamaat? The transformation of Fatimid doctrine into a cult of Dai? One could go on, but this should be enough for you now to ponder over.

In one post you claimed I was a Kafir..and parctises which belittle Husains sacrifice..can you describe specifically how Sayednas or Bohras methods have belittled Husain AS sacrifice ..is it his sermon, is it the way Bohras congregate, is it the way we perfrom certain rituals, do you have a historical definitive program of how Muharam is to be commemorated across the planet for the next 1500 years...are you doing so as prescribed..

See my response above. The tamasha that attends Bohra moharrum organised by the Kothar is anything but the solemnity that Imam Hussain's sacrifice deserves. If you find nothing wrong with this tamasha then I've nothing more to say.

before you try to preach Islam to me practise first and show me your results ! There is no fault if Bohras practise and add what they think is extra...civilisation has do so every where in its advances in science and lifestyle...as a example do you run half naked and eat raw planst like your ancestors...

You have little knowledge of Islam and still less of the Fatimid-Mustalian-Tayebbi faith which Bohras profess. (And perhaps none about the evolutions of science and civilisation.) The "extra" that the kothar has added (not the Bohras) goes against the cardinal principles of Islam and Bohra faith. The use of "raza" and "misaq" are innovations nowhere supported by tradition or source books. The deification of the dai into "haqiqi kaba" and the quran and what not are the perversity of Islam. The life of luxury and extravagance the Dai and his "royal family" live are in direct violation of the teachings of Prophet Mohammed and Ali. The attempt to control the community and become the sole owner of its masjids and properties is an innovation and an expansion of the Dai role into the temporal affairs of Bohras.

If you look closely, the Bohras as a community are de-evolving or degenerating.

look at the photos of Udaipur some of you have worn western suits and leather jackets which by the way I am not against but you have introduced modern stuff into your lifestyles and yet you deny Bohras to introduce new practises and rituals which they feel coomfortable with.

As explained above, the "new practices and rituals" which progressives object to go against the basics of Islam and Bohra faith. The clothes you see on people of Udaipur is what used to be normal for Bohras. The rida and saya, dhadi, topi have been introduced and imposed since the early 80s. If "Islamic modesty" was the rationale one would have understood it. But this was a cynical attempt to control people's psychology through such sartorial devices. Is it any wonder then that after a generation of brainwashing not only all bohras look the same but also behave the same: like sheep. Is this what you call civilisation? Progress? Evolution?

The Bayaans of Moaula are there to attract the belivers and provide spiritual security and I notice thousands like what they hear and accept the mission. They have chosen their path as you have.

Spiritual security? What the hell is that? And what mission are you talking about? The Kothar's mission is to bilk the community, and the Bohras mission is submit and surrender to the will of the Sayedna (read Kothar's). That is the real perversion of Islam (which BTW means surrendering to the will of Allah).

I do not accept your consipracy theory which is trying to imply that everyday Kotharis wakeup, sit around a boardroom and the only thought is how do we make money from the community and con them.

By calling it a conspiracy you may want to deny the reality. But factsremains no matter how you label it. Maybe the "kotharis" don't sit in boardrooms but the only thought that occupies their mind is to come up with the new ideas to milk the community dry. The evidence is all around you, that is if you care to look.

The profiteering is the consequence not the root cause. I at times am accepting they sincerely do believe in the well being and want bohras to live and breath like them more from an emotional affinity rather than malice.

Profiteering is the root cause. You have no idea how the byzantine kothar functions. Zulfiqar tried to explain this to you but I guess you do not want to know. The only central concern in this whole "business" called Bohra Inc. is that the well-being of the "royal family" and all it functionaries and hangers-on must be preserved and advanced.

They are a conservative lot and want to defend and retain their identity at all costs. They are courageous enough to display their faith in their appearance and attire.Now similarly Islam encourages demonstrating your beleifs in your daily lives.

Appearance and attire are tools to control your mind. Yes, Islam encourages, but leaves it to the individual and his Allah. It does not encourage imposition of beliefs and lifestyle under pain of ex-communication and other forms of humiliation.

If Kotharis were so brutal and oppressive even the flaunting of the wealth would not bring so many beleivers to the fold and I have observed more people are turning to the fold then those born before the 60's. They must be doing something right which you are failing to see.

You must understand the history and social structure of Bohras. They are an extremely small minority even within a Muslim setting; their faith, rituals and customs are unique is so many ways. Bohras outside of their community are like fish out of water. Community provides them religious fulfillment, social connection, kinship, security and satisfaction. The Kohtar know this very well and exploits this Bohra psychology to its advantage. That is why ex-communication and "chitthi band" are seen as the "end of the world" by a common bohra.
The majority of bohras tend to tolerate and ignore the Kohtar's brutality and oppression - not that they don't see it at such - but because they feel it is more important to them to be a part of the community. It fulfills their basic social and psychological needs. If more people are "turning to the fold" it is not because the Kothar is harmless, it is because their need to belong is greater than the pain of being exploited.

You need to realise the Kenyan preseident is protected by Israeeli trained special forces, Moula regularly travels between Europe and Asia and if there was a hint of criminal or oppresive stain on Sayedna the leaders would have stayed far or even denied visa and media would have been on their case.

Do you know that in the 60s(?) the Sayedna was kicked out of Kenya? One Shiekh sahab was caught for smuggling diamonds. And if all the wheelings and dealings by the Kothar are pursued diligently - and if governments and politicians are not regularly bribed - I've no doubt that the "royal family" would be drowning in a sea of money laundering charges. But then, this is not the real issue. The dawat should be more worried about the stains of morality and conscience on it soul.

You criticise strong Bohra rules and punishment take time off the computer desk and look around you the rest of the world operates in a similar method...your job, your tax rules , etc. If you do not comply your are deported or jailed. Why do you expect Orthodox to operate more lenently and provide you more freedom then the Dunia. Even Saudi Arabia expects you comply with specific Wahabi beliefs and practises.

Bohras are not a club nor a country. Yes, we all need rules for order and security. But who is going to set the rules and on what basis? Our faith and tradition have clearly outlined these rules: the Quran, Daim ul Islam, Tuhafat ul Qulub and the traditions of the Porphet, Ali, Imams and Dais. The rules that the kothar is imposing on the community are in complete violation of what our books and our religious leaders teach us. It's interesting that you pick up Saudia to make your point. There is no difference between Saudi Arabia and the Kothar, except that one is blessed with oil and the other with sheep; that one is blessed with a country and the other with the sovereignty over bohra soul on earth and in heaven.

Again back to to the topic ..what is wrong in Sayedna Mombasa ? An if in your mind he is wrong what would you expect your leader to do and is he doing as you demand others to do ?

First of all, sayedna saheb should not be jet-setting around considering his age and health. Do you people have not mercy on the old man? Would anybody in their right mind treat their own father like this - like a trophy to attract crowds. As for what we would expect "our leader" - the responsible Dai - to do, you'll have to wait. First try to digest all of the above.

[Al Zulfiqar]

GB,

i think humsafar has adequately answered yr post.

just let me add that re: the annual moharram picnics in yr previous posts, you first emphasised, 1. economic and other benefits to a poor country and the bohras who stay there, 2. that it was a 'private affair' and none of the reformist's business because they dont pay and that the bohras who attend like it and find it a 'deeply spiritual experience', 3. that the majority of bohras are on yr (syedna's) side and the progressives are 'not in power'.

let me tell you that the progressives are more than used to hearing all these tired arguments and some more which you have not even spelt out as yet. you have been given sufficiently detailed replies on all yr justifications but inspite of having eyes and a thinking brain, you persist in acting blind and brainless. that is entirely yr choice, as criticising where we see an abuse of our deen and outright loot and deception, is ours.

you are not only totally ignorant of the reformist cause and their aims, but you have absolutely no knowledge of our bohra deen as enshrined in our religious scriptures mentioned above by humsafar, neither do you have any awareness of our recent history and practices, even from as little as 40-50 years ago. the last 2 dai's have completely subverted our beliefs, our deen and our religious principles which were held sacrosanct by all our previous imams and dai's, up until the 50th. by talking about innovations and 'modern practices' to adjust to our new realities, you are yrself providing proof of the sinister and cunning designs of the last 2 dai's to run a totalitarian religious regime which has no mercy for those who do not toe their line. all the examples you provide of tax systems, or courts etc ring hollow because they function in a democratic set-up, unlike our bohras of today. according to your logic, gandhi should have been deported because he did not like british rule. initially it was only him and a band of few indians who rebelled and challenged the illegal rule of the british. the rest of the 500 million indians were obedient or had no objection. so gandhi was either anti-indian, insane, a trouble maker or hungry for power and jealous of the brits?

out of a total 1.5 million bohras, perhaps only a miniscule % like you wud agree that everything is hunky dory with the the kothar and its illegal and unislamic and oppressive practices. the vast majority are unsatisfied, affected and suffering, but do not know what to do or how to fight this evil system for fear of being made outcast. they feel trapped and miserable but no one will openly discuss his pvt humiliations or issues with anyone and thus they cannot get organised.

as for yr comments on how moharram is presently conducted and yr rather sarcastic queries on how it can be bettered, that alone shows how little u know of the spirit behind hussain's sacrifice and the state of our community today. it also amply demonstrates how successful our syedna and his family have been in deliberately depriving our bohras of real knowledge and the life and behaviour of ali and hussain, while diverting them most cynically into futile and ignoble pursuits of chest beating, hysteria, show, pomp and drama.

your posts so far on this forum, abundantly display only one thing. your abysmal ignorance and the insidious success of the last 2 dai's clever and oppressive policies. you are a perfect example of a brainwashed bohra of today - outwardly educated, perhaps materially successful, but deeply ignorant, spiritually illiterate and morally bankrupt.

[Smart]

@AZ

your posts so far on this forum, abundantly display only one thing. your abysmal ignorance and the insidious success of the last 2 dai's clever and oppressive policies. you are a perfect example of a brainwashed bohra of today - outwardly educated, perhaps materially successful, but deeply ignorant, spiritually illiterate and morally bankrupt.

Kudos to you. Very well put in a nutshell

[GreatBarrier]

This topic was started by Danish and Ombharti and eneded with AL Zulfikar and Gulam Muhammed..and a few cheerers on the side where this topic started off making racist black comments comments and false suggestions that Mombasa event is a wrong and implying majority Mombasa Bohras are against his visit.

Some quite unprofessional and irational derogatory remarks of Sayedna and some Orthodix participants were made and this raises questions about the credibility of the participants in trying to put forward logical and faith turning arguments. If this is the representation of the best of the Progressive then you do not have a chance in a generation to topple any Orthodox jammat ! Some orthodox do fall into the name calling trap but I excuse them because they do not have to as you host this board and your cream have to demonstrate high moral.

I wanted to correct the statments on this topic by putting forward a alternative case that you may be wrong to label Saydna's visit a failure, I was steering the discussion that possible it is good for the people of Mombasa and the Bohras who have spent their hard earned money will come back happy.

I tried to challenge your long desire of democracy and demand for freedoms to show the same courtesy to those who have chosen the Dai's path. Without digracing into other topics on the board I have tried to remain focussed. None of your responses have answered the specific comments where in summary I stated:

1. Do you not agree it is good for Mombasa to have so many visitors, keeping aside the purpose of the meeting or event ?

2. Don't Orthodox have the right to spend their money the way they wish to and for a choice of faith they desire ?

3. Rather than criticising Orthodox why have you not created a parralel so called "ideal faith" event and let the public decide which event is more popular and lets see who runs in more numbers ?

If you are not interested in the numbers why do you spend so much time criticising Orthodox and not spare the effort perfecting your own faith ?

Coincidently and quite fortunate I experienced your hate and despise for all Orthodox whether midlle right or far right , some have called me or us Kafirs, chamchas, outoward inward !!...which do not bother me. When you run out of logical and prtactical challenge you display the same mentality and despise as far right extremists in Orthodox do.

If some of you wonder why I am so keen on this topic it is my motherland that was being discredited and the community (African, Mombasawalla and Bohra) that I grew up with and in its defense I could not watch you get away so easily.

PS: Spelling is MOMBASA

[ashvad]

Some excerpts from Waayaz in town of Gujarat by this white beasts and taliban of india , has started preaching which is beyond ones imagination. Excerpts as follows "1.Licking sand beneath the legs of Syedna has more value and sawaab than touching Hazrate Ashvad. 2. Didaar of Syedna is of more value than going to Haj. 3. Listening Waayaz is having more sawaab than praying (this was said is context as Zohar time had passed and his Waayaz continued). 4. Dais Shound be given more honour than Immams. 5. Syedna is the only Mushkilkusah. "

Laanat for the people who preaches and who follows it.

[Hussain_KSA]

Brother Ashvad

Welcome on this forum and thanks for your contribution.

Regards

[Gulf]

more value and sawaab than touching Hazrate Ashvad.

For your kind info it is called Hajar-e-Aswad and NOT Hazrate Ashvad. You stupid!

Hajar mean Stone and Aswad means Black = meaning Hajar-e-Aswad = The Black Stone


Kndly note that I am here ONLY to read fabulous posts from GreatBarier

[Al Zulfiqar]

welcome aswad to this forum. pls continue with yr contributions.

according to the logic and arguments of the orthodox, whose recent fanatic representative on this forum is greatbarrier, the contents of the vaez and its occasion are not important and also none of the reformists' business.

-if a certain number of bohras have congregated in one place for whatever reason, they have bought economic benefits to that town, village or area,
-if all those who sat there and listened to this kufr did not object, means they liked it, they wanted it and they derived great spiritual solace from it.
-if this is the same story repeated with bohra jamaats all over the world, then it has to be right. the numbers prove it and the progressives are wrong, because they cannot muster up such large followings and no one is interested in their intellectual crap. people want false mojizas and sycophancy, give it to them.
-if any profit is made out of such tamashas, it is perfectly legitimate as the end justifies the means.

in essence, running a scam is legal, a religious duty and of great economic benefit to both, the victims and the perpetrators. the reasons for such gatherings dont matter, no matter how trivial they are, which includes shahadat btw.

[ashvad]

Thanking You very much for sharing such a fantastic views. Just I want the world should know that Bohras are no more follower of Islam. Dawoodi Bohras should be distanced from Islam as they just are worshipper of living person and photograph of any one is prohibited in Islam. Why no other community in Islam object to this Idol worship. Islam can into existence by removing Idols from Kabba-e-sharif. Islam always says about One and only Allah. Why majority of Bohra doesnot really understand Islam. ????? !!!!! Very very astonishing.

[Humsafar]

Great Barrier,
Let's not start hedging and evading real issues. I'll answer all your questions, but be upfront about them and stop whining about "I came here for this" and "I wanted to correct that." When presented with an argument, try to respond to it with a counter-argument. Don't pretend as if you have not read our comments or do not understand them. A little intellectual honesty is necessary if are to have a dialogue. You also seem to labour under false assumptions about reformists. I'd urge you again to read up on our history and literature. Below are my comments to your questions/thoughts.

I wanted to correct the statments on this topic by putting forward a alternative case that you may be wrong to label Saydna's visit a failure, I was steering the discussion that possible it is good for the people of Mombasa and the Bohras who have spent their hard earned money will come back happy.

You are right, Sayenda's visit to Mombasa is not a failure - in material terms - for the people who benefited from it. Who are the people who benefited from it: the Sayedna and his family by way of collecting millions of shillings; Local bohra businessmen and others by way of increased economic activity; the outsiders who went to Mombasa and "spent their hard-earned money and came back happy." No doubt all these people benefited. By just focusing your attention on the incidental benefits of an event you're ignoring the context and purpose of the event itself. (Do you know that a lot of people benefit from war, that war is great for the economy? By your logic - concentrate on the incidental benefits, ignore larger context - war is not a "failure".)

So, you've to understand that Sayedna's visit to Mombasa cannot be separated from the context of Moharram. And Moharram is an occasion to remember the sacrifice of Imam Hussain, and the role of the Dai is to explain to his followers the importance of this sacrifice and urge them to imbibe the ideals and principles that led Imam Hussain to make this supreme sacrifice. Sayedna narrated the events of Karbala but did he draw any lessons from it for the Bohras and its relevance to our lives? No. Did he urge them live by the ideals and principles of Imam Hussain? No. Does Sayedna himself display these ideals and principles in his own actions and that of his regime? No. So, one can only conclude that Mombasa visit was a total failure in spiritual and religious terms which by the way was the main purpose of the event.

I tried to challenge your long desire of democracy and demand for freedoms to show the same courtesy to those who have chosen the Dai's path.

Please stop throwing around the word "democracy" without understanding what reformists mean by it. When we talk about democracy we mean it in a very limited sense, at the jamat level. That means, members of local jamats should have the right to elect their own management committee and vest in it the authority to run the affairs of jamat. The amil should be there to just represent the Dai and fulfill religious duties. Apart from this the amil and the Kothar should have no business in interfering in the running and managing of jamats. That's democracy of us.

Without digracing into other topics on the board I have tried to remain focussed. None of your responses have answered the specific comments where in summary I stated:

Really, read your posts again my friend. You're all over place. We've answered your all your questions, but here I go again. And please, if you are still not satisfied, feel free to ask them again and again.

1. Do you not agree it is good for Mombasa to have so many visitors, keeping aside the purpose of the meeting or event ?

This has been answered above. Yes, I agree that it is good for Mombasa in the same way war can be good for a lot of people. But our contention is that it is morally ethically wrong to "keep aside the purpose of the meeting or event".

2. Don't Orthodox have the right to spend their money the way they wish to and for a choice of faith they desire ?

Yes, they have a right to spend their money the way they want provided - and this is important - they have the freedom to do so. Look at the number of instances where Bohras have to shell out money to the Kothar. Nine out of 10 times it is due to some pressure, rule or custom. Everything has been made so systematic and "natural" that it is made to appear as if people are giving money voluntarily. Speak to ordinary bohras and you will realise how much "freedom" they have behind their right to spend their money on the "choice of faith they desire". Even people who went to Mombasa, most of them must have done so under peer pressure, to keep up with joneses and other such reasons. By your own admission they spent their hard-earned money on their own happiness (as if going on some travel junket) and not on "faith".

Even so, let's for argument's sake allow that Bohras give their money to the Kothar voluntarily. The question is, what happens to that money? How and where is it spent? One cannot separate the collection of money from its expenditure. Reformists question the morality and justification of both these aspects. To hide behind the excuse that "they have the right to spend their money" is a moral cop-out. Yes, there are some rich bohras who give freely but only as a quid pro quo, to curry favour with the establishment, to buy influence and titles, but for the majority there's no freedom to their right on how they spend their money on their faith.

3. Rather than criticising Orthodox why have you not created a parralel so called "ideal faith" event and let the public decide which event is more popular and lets see who runs in more numbers ?

"Parallel", "Ideal Faith". Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Do you know what you mean by "faith" here? Reformists are not interested in creating any "parallel" or "alternative" or "ideal" faith. In fact we have no issue with Fatimid Mustalian faith as such. The reform struggle is about issues of accountability, transparency and democracy in the context of how the social and temporal affairs of the community are conducted. Please, please try to learn the basics of the reform movement. And by the way, we are not pursuing any "ideal". By labeling our struggle as "ideal", you are saying two things: 1) That reformists are unreasonable and out of touch with reality and their demands too "idealistic". 2) Sayedna and his regime operates in the "real world", is just fine as it is and cannot submit to the foolish "idealism" of the detractors. Stop this "ideal" business.

If you are not interested in the numbers why do you spend so much time criticising Orthodox and not spare the effort perfecting your own faith ?

Look at reformists jamats, they are not perfect but that is what we are trying to achieve for the rest of the community. When we say we are not interested in numbers, what we mean is that it does not matter how many people join or leave the reform movement. What matters is that we remain true to the principles on which the movement is based. Bohras display (including you) appalling ignorance of their faith, history and tradition. We criticise them for their ignorance and gutlessness. We criticise the priestly class too for their perversity and criminality. But if there are sheep who "willingly" submit themselves for slaughter you can't really blame the butcher too much. But of course the reality is more complex and nuanced than this analogy can illustrate.

Let us know if you have any more questions.

[Al Zulfiqar]

great post humsafar. now watch gb move the goalposts again...

according to him, as per his last drivel filled post, it is his love for his 'motherland' Kenya, that makes him overlook the trifling matter of the solemn occasion of moharram. the economic benefits resulting from it are more important.

as an aside, the blacks (and the govt. of kenya by being complicit) recently acknowledged this love of his, by looting and murdering kenyans of indian origin under the guise of election issues. entire towns like kisumu were economically destroyed as indian businessess were plundered and robbed. indians and bohras are still there only because they find it monetarily worthwhile to make quick bucks in a corrupt regime. the day it is no longer worth it, they will all run and abandon their 'motherland' like rats abandon a sinking ship. so much for his argument about his great patriotic love!

[Anwar]

"Kndly note that I am here ONLY to read fabulous posts from GreatBarier" writes Gulg.
either you are blind, stupid , both or just just a ----------------------- This post was not written by your like minded GB.So what r u doing, u r not supposed to read articles other than GB´s, and this is what you yourself said.
It will be intresting to read what u have to comment, which will prove what I have said above and may be more

[Smart]

There is small query that comes to my mind. Can somebody please answer that.
Why do orthodox have pseudonames that are self deprecating such as:
1. Gulf - Big gap
2. Great Barrier - Big blockage
3. Jayanti - Death anniversary
4. Propig - everybody here know he was pro - who

[mumin]

Does the syedna have to have a chartered plane to visit Mombasa? Was a first class ticket not good enough. Could not all this extra money be spent in helping the community.
Here in the states another scheme has been started by the local amil to gain more money for himself. Here in our jamat the jamat members were asked to become N.K.D. and other such titles. THis meant najwa had to be given and the Fat salams for the Amil. The jamat members had to do as he wanted . They paid up najwas and salams and accepted a shawl with long and sad faces thinking all the time how they were fleeced . Although for Imam Hussain's niaz single individuals have already commited and are providing niaz for the small jamaat for all ten , still money is forcefully collected by the local jamat members for niaz purposes and the funny thing is that money has to be given to the Amil and not the jamaat who is responsible for the food. Also one cannot contribute what one can afford because this Amil has started a unit system to collect niaz money which means if one wants to contribute a small amount he cannot. You have to contribute by buying units of $52. I think this is unfair. Another money making ploy started by this Amil is to collect money to send mumins to Kerbala ziarat if they cannot afford it. . He wants individuals to purchase unit of $500.00 . And of course the usual, that one will gain a lot of sawab. I have read that even for haj one should go if one can afford it and definitely not by asking for handouts.
IS IT RIGHT FOR THE LOCAL AMIL TO COME UP WITH THESE NEW IDEAS TO COLLECT MONEY AND HOW CAN ONE BE CERTAIN THAT THE MONEY COLLECTED IS BEING USED FOR THE PURPOSE GIVEN AND NOT LINING HIS OWN POCKETS.

[ghulam muhammed]

Does the syedna have to have a chartered plane to visit Mombasa? Was a first class ticket not good enough. Could not all this extra money be spent in helping the community.

Bro Mumin,

Its surprising that you are shocked of burhanudin saab travelling by a chartered flight to a far off place like Mumbasa. Let me give you one more shocker--- He travelled by a chartered Jet Airways flight on Sat, 4th Oct '08 at around 10.30 a.m. to Surat for his zikra bash, a 3 hour plus distance by train and for which endless number of trains are available. Needless to say that the flight was occupied by his family members only who tagged alongwith their respective maids and servants. I have a first hand account of this incident as I was on my way to some other destination on another flight at around the same time. Now calculate the waste of community money by comparing the 1st class ticket rates with what they paid for chartering a flight.

[Al Zulfiqar]

the day is not far off when they will have their own pvt plane, a la the sultan of brunei, with gold taps, posh bedrooms and lavish fittings et al...

next they will be establishing their own country. perhaps the syedna and his parasites can buy up the world's smallest country -andorra- and convert it to 'burhanistan'. i am sure the european union will welcome this initiative with open arms. then the syedna can also have a seat in the united nations and his family members can compete in the olympics in std's under their national flag. they can literally print their own money and each and every bohra must migrate there by force. of course the passport of this new country will cost 100,000 $ per person, enough to buy another small country next to it, perhaps monaco or lichtenstein? i see the beginnings of a bohra empire here, the glorious days of ghanu jeevo...

[ghulam muhammed]

Aqa Maula TUS delivers Purdard Shahadat zikr of Maulatena Fatema AS in the 6th Waaz Mubarak
7 Moharrum-ul-Haram, 1430 [ 03-01-2009 ] at Mombasa - Kenya

Today Aqa Maula TUS performed Waaz mubarak with zikr of Maulatena Fatema tuz Zahra AS.

Maula TUS ye farmaayu ke Fatema ni shaan azeem chhe.

Aimmat sagla Fatemiyeen kehwai chhe. Je sagla Fatema na farzando chhe. Fatema nu ghar-aj tatheer nu ghar chhe.

Aa ghar ehwu ghar chhe jema si koi na ummeed nahin waltu. Aaj me 97 saal ni umr par pohcho chhu. Fatema AS na ghar par tamara waaste shafaat ni ataa lewa ne aayo chhu. Je Fatema ma ne saayil ne nawu kameez aapi didhu, te Fatema na ghar par sehaat ane aafiyaat lewa aayo chhu.

Maula TUS ye khajoori ni zikr farmaavi je ne teko daee ne Imam Hussain AS betha hata. Jiwaare Hussain AS ni shahadat thai to eh khajuri nu su haal hase. Jiwaare aa shahadat ni zikr thai chhe to Ae Mumineen tamaaro su haal hoe chhe.

Maula TUS farmaayu ke duniya chhe, ehwa haalat aawe. Ek nusko batau chhu, Hussain par aansu nikaali dejo.

Rasulullah SAW ye Ali AS ane Fatema AS ni shaadi kari aapi ane kaam nu ehm takhmeen kidhu ke bahar nu saglu kaam Amirul Mumineen AS kare and ghar nu kaam saglu Fatema AS kare.

Maula TUS farmaayu ke koi tamari dikri waaste mangnu laawe to ehm na khayal karjo ke aa shakhs to gareeb chhe. Mohti umr ni dikriyo hoe ehni bhi shaadi thaawi joiye.

Maulana Badrul Jamali RA bayan kare chhe mard ne potana bairo waaste su waajib chhe:

-Mard par waajib ehm je ke bairo ne khaas ghar ma wasaawe.
-Ehne madarrat (takleef) na pohchaawe.
-Khamosh rahi ne bairo ne sambhale. Bairo laaya magar khush nathin. To thori khushi chhe tehne sambhalo.

Amirul Mumineen AS farmaave chhe ke bairo ma waakaas hoe chhe.. Agar ekdam doorust karwa jaaso to tuti jaase. Jitlu durust thai sake itlu karo pacchi rehwa dao. Wadhaare doorust na karjo.

Aqa Maula TUS ye aa upar nu bayan tabassum si farmaayu.

Bairo par su waajib chhe:
-Mard na amar ni taat kare. Ehni khushi mutabiq amal kare.
-Mard ni qadr ne jaane. Mard bahar si aawe to uthi ne khara thai jai ehni azamat waaste. Ehm na bane ke mard ghare aaya to kai khabar aj na hoe. Kaun aya kaun gaya. Kapra siya kare.
Amirul Mumineen AS padharta to Fatema uthi ne jaata.
-Mard na qasam ne paale.
-Ehni nemat no shukur kare.
-Tamaru ghar ya maru judu tem barabar nahin.
-Mard saathe tawaazo saathe waat kare. Mard no saamno na kare.
-Ehna farzando ni kafalat barabar kare.
-Ma mas'oola chhe.
-Ehni amanat ne ada kare.
-Ehna maal ne barabar sambhaale.
-Iffat si rahe.
-Bairo na sir(secrets) ne mard ne raakhwo joiye. Sagla ne na kahe.
-Potani zeenat ne koina paase zaahir na kare.

Mumineen ni jamaat. Apan fatemi Daawat na farzando chhe. Aapnu culture khayal raakhwu joiye.

Aa dushmano ye Mohammed SAW ni shahzadiyo ne bandiwaan kidha. Ehna ek farzand ne zeher si shaheed kari naakha ane bija farzand Hussain !! Ashura na din shaheed kidha..

Aaj saatmi taarikh si paani band thayu chhe.. Nubuwat na aasman ma taarao sagla dubi gaya. Hussain AS no maatam kari lejo.

Maula TUS ye Imam Hussain AS ni shahadat pari.

Te baad Maula TUS ye Rasulullah SAW na wafaat na baad je zulm amirul Mumineen AS ane Fatema AS par thaya tehni zikr farmaawi. Mumineen ghana roya aa zikr suni ne.

Maulatena Fatema AS Rasulullah SAW ni qabr mubarak per aawi ne ghana roya.

Maulatena Fatema AS ni chhatri ni purdard zikr farmaavi.

Maulatena Fatema AS ni ghani purdard shahadat ni zikr Maula TUS ye farmaavi.

Te baad Waaz khatam thai ane Maula TUS qibla ma padhara ane Zohr Asr ni namaz parhaavi..

Te baad Aqa Maula TUS miyana ma padhara saglaj Mumineen ye masjid na cmoplex ane atraf ma chhe te sagl ne deedar nu sharaf mile te Maula TUS ye karam ane ehsan farmaavi ne padhara.

[ghulam muhammed]

Aqa Maula TUS delivers the 7th Waaz Mubarak of Ashara 1430 with Shahadat zikr of Amirul Mumineen AS
8 Moharrum-ul-Haram, 1430 [ 04-01-2009 ] at Mombasa - Kenya


Aqa Maula TUS ye aaj ni waaz Amirul Mumineen Ali ibn Abi Talib AS ni zikr si shuru farmaavi.

Maulana Ali AS ni shaan ghani baland chhe.
Aaj ni aa majlis ma Maula Ali AS hamne olkhi le. Aa dino ma ghana aansu nikaaljo.ehj tamaro shugul hoe.

Rasulullah SAW na farzand Hussain AS su ashura na din mushkil kushai kare chhe.

Aqa Maula TUS Maulana Aliakbar AS ni purdard shahadat parhi.

Imam Hussain AS ye Aliakbar AS na seena ma si barchhi nikaali.

Mumineen shukur karo ke apne Khuda ye Kufa ni masjid ni taameer nu sharaf apne aapu. Je qibla maa aap shaheed thaya wahan ni zareeh banawu apne naseeb kidhu.

Imam Ali Zainul Abedin AS ni mashki ni zikr mashhoor chhe teh ni Zikr farmaavi ane farmaayu kem hamne eh Imam ni mashki na fokora karjo.

Syedna Moayyed us Shirazi RA ye Imam Mustansir AS ni 800 majlis parhi chhe.

Afrikiyah na logo ni khulusiyat joi ne ghani khushi thai chhe. Bawajisaheb Syedna Taher Saifuddin Aqa AQ ni Afrikiyah ni safar ni zikr bastat si farmaavi.
Syedna Taher Saifuddin Aqa teen din waaste Karachi padhara Africa padharwa pehle.

Bawajisaheb ye naw jawano (youngsters) ne hidaayat aapi ke je degree lai to su kaam karwu joiye. Mumineen ghana khush hata.

Saifee foundation qaem kidhu.

Tanga padhara. Isteqbal thayu. Gardi ghani thai. Ghana mumineen har roz aawe.

President wahan hata ane milwaa aaya.

Madagascar ma 22 din rahya. Je waqt Syedna Taher Saifuddin AQ ne dekha to yaqeen thai gayu ke haq na Dai aaj chhe.

Bahar na logo ye dekha to mabhur thai gaya.

Darussalam, Kampala ma ghani shaanaat dikhaawi.

Syedna Taher Saifuddin AQ ye Shabab ul Eiddiz Zahabi ne qaem farmaavi. Te baad Nairobi ma function thayu.te waqt 1500 mumineen hata. Governor General milwa aya. Eh kayu ke Syedna ne dekhi ne mein ghanoj muta-assir thayo chhu. Aa saheb kitlu kaam kare chhe. Syedna har kaam ghani hikmat na saath kare chhe. Tame ghana naseeb dar chho mumineen ke tamne ehwa rehbar mila chhe. Tamne duniya ane deen ni saadat aape chhe.

Te baad Governor kahe chhe ke mein je bolo te dil si bolo chho.

Paaccha Mumbai Maula Syedna Taher saifuddin AQ padhara to India ni hukumat ye kahyu ke aap padhara to hamara ambassador thai ne padhara.

Aaj aalame imaan ma relay thai rahyu chhe. Hawe to faqt be din rahya chhe.

Mumineen !! Mara saath Imam Hussain AS no maatam ane buka kari lejo.

It'aam ut Taam ma ghanu sawab chhe. Jaman jamaro jamaro.

Mumin ne jamaro to ehno bhai samjhi ne jamaro. Mumineen ma koi gareeb nathin. Sadaqa ni maana si na jamaro. Mumin qubool kare to ehnui ehsan. Mumin bhai par sadaqo na hoe.

Aa dino par Hussain AS par jamarwa ma ghanu sawab chhe.. Koi dudh pilaawe, koi sharbat pilaawe chhe. Khuda e sagla ne jaza aapjo.

Aaj na din ma aalam e Iman ma jaha kahan maari raza si aza ni majlis thai chhe eh tamam mawaze ma aaj na din ni niyaz nu sagla Mumineen ne izan chhe. Ummeed karu chhe ke koi ek mumin bhi aa jaman si mehroom na rahe.

Amirul Mumineen AS na aakhri Shehrullah ni zikr farmaavi.

Aqa Maula TUS ye Amirul Mumineen AS ni shahadat parhi.

Waaz baad Aqa Maula TUS ye Zohr/Asr ni namaz parhaavi ane te baad miyana ma padhara.

Aaj aalam e iman ma Aqa Maula TUS taraf si niyaz nu izan thu ane saglu Mumineen ye Muala TUS ni aa thaal ni barakaat haasil kidhi.

IS THIS VAYEZ OF IMAM HUSSAIN A.S. OR VAYEZ OF TAHERSAIFUDIN SAAB.

[Al Zulfiqar]

te baad saghla momin je gham na dariya ma dubela ane paivast hata, te saghla ye jaman na thaalo par bismillah kahi ne tooti pada che. su manzar che..

te baad su shaan thi mumeen jame che.. aaa. hu dekhu che su? ke gham na maara mumeen halwo, te baad murghi ane mag pulao, kadhi ane salad, sharbat, imam hussain ane ena kafla ni bhook ane pyaas ne yaad kareene behad jamya che ane nosh farmayu che..

te baad, ghana mumeen je pet ma jagya na howana na sabab thi utha che ane shopping na plan kare che..ek bija thi guftagu kare che. ena noorani hasta hua chehra joyne malaekat khush thai che. mataamdarana hussain kai misal apno valvalo zari kare che..badhi dego ne saaf kareene ne apno zalzalo dekhare che..

[GreatBarrier]

great post humsafar. now watch gb move the goalposts again...

according to him, as per his last drivel filled post, it is his love for his 'motherland' Kenya, that makes him overlook the trifling matter of the solemn occasion of moharram. the economic benefits resulting from it are more important.

as an aside, the blacks (and the govt. of kenya by being complicit) recently acknowledged this love of his, by looting and murdering kenyans of indian origin under the guise of election issues. entire towns like kisumu were economically destroyed as indian businessess were plundered and robbed. indians and bohras are still there only because they find it monetarily worthwhile to make quick bucks in a corrupt regime. the day it is no longer worth it, they will all run and abandon their 'motherland' like rats abandon a sinking ship. so much for his argument about his great patriotic love!

AZ get your facts right...the number of Indians affected were a drop in the ocean in comparison to Black affected..these were tribal wars and not racial..Indians got caught in cross fire and opportunistic looting of the wealthy. Secondly when Hindus killed Muslims in Gujarat ...Muslims did not leave India and run to Pakistan.... Kenya is as corrupt as Pakistan or Indonesia .

[Al Zulfiqar]

Secondly when Hindus killed Muslims in Gujarat ...Muslims did not leave India and run to Pakistan.... .

Exactly! But the indians and bohras in kenya will run to India, UK etc when its no longer safe for them there..

thanks for proving my point that neither the blacks care for the indians, nor do the indians treat the country as their own. so much for yr pathetic patriotism excuse on behalf of our mercenary syedna and his leach family..

[ghulam muhammed]

Aaj ni aa majlis ma Maula Ali AS hamne olkhi le. Aa dino ma ghana aansu nikaaljo.ehj tamaro shugul hoe.

Moula Ali a.s. has definately "olkhi lidha" after seeing 52nd's lavish lifestyle, openly doing "amaanat ma khayaanat" by looting the zakaat money for himself and cursing all and sundry who refuse to tow his line all of which is exactly the opposite of what Moula Ali a.s. has preached.

The message of the great shahadat is given in a nutshell "Aa dino ma ghana aansu nikaaljo ehj tamaro shugul hoe". It means just weep, beat ur chests, eat lavish food, attend his vayez and the purpose of shahadat is achieved.

Governor General milwa aya. Eh kayu ke Syedna ne dekhi ne mein ghanoj muta-assir thayo chhu. Aa saheb kitlu kaam kare chhe. Syedna har kaam ghani hikmat na saath kare chhe. Tame ghana naseeb dar chho mumineen ke tamne ehwa rehbar mila chhe. Tamne duniya ane deen ni saadat aape chhe.

Either the governor is dumb or he hasnt seen the 'hikmat' which should be termed as 'manipulative cunningness' seeing the way that he has totally rewritten the bohra history by introducing innumerable reppressive measures and milking the community dry.

Paaccha Mumbai Maula Syedna Taher saifuddin AQ padhara to India ni hukumat ye kahyu ke aap padhara to hamara ambassador thai ne padhara.

Can anyone tell me which dumb and/or corrupt politician was heading the state of affairs at that time ?

Mumineen ma koi gareeb nathin.

This is the best one as it speaks volumes of his claim of being infallible and 'ghaib na sardar'.

saglu Mumineen ye Muala TUS ni aa thaal ni barakaat haasil kidhi.

Is this the 'barkat' for which thousands of lunatics travelled all the way to Mumbasa ?

[Al Zulfiqar]

bro. gm,

please dont drive yrself into a nervous breakdown. all the bohras who have travelled to mombasa have gone there with altruistic motives of the most noble form. foremost among one of their many reasons is the economic uplift of kenya by shopping and enjoying tourism and next is contributing to the meagre expenses of the syedna's 'royal family', which is surviving on a few scraps of food, wearing old tattered clothes and travelling by bullock carts.. we as bohras cannot bear their suffering and pain...

[GreatBarrier]

Response to Humsafar

H: Commemoration of Moharram is a solemn affair. The fanfare that attends sayedna's vaez - the foreign trips, the shopping, the food - is anything but solemn. The content of the vaez itself as reported in another thread is nothing but a re-run of the same old script. It's pure theatre, as porus once aptly described.

History of Karbala has not changed why do you think there should be a new script If you have attended any event what fanfare do you see ? Don’t the Mumin do matam and weep. Why do you think it is wrong to buy a few merchandise or have some soft drinks or snacks. If you go to Makah, Cairo or Karabala you will see the same things..of course I have not heard people making multi million dollar investment deals while standing in 35C sun.

H: Better alternative is Udaipur and other reformist jamaats the world over. Yes, some of us may come across as aggressive but that's because they have little patience for fools. But you'd wrong to judge progressives from what you see on this forum.

Let the public decide which is better…see my other posts. If

you are intolerant and have not patience for fools like me well lets call it as it is this is a whinging board.

H: Who said we want to be in power? If you can say that then you have little understanding of the reform movement, its history and its agenda. Please take some time read up the material available on this site.

Well what is your purpose of continued attack on Sayedna if it is not to take away his authority and run it the way you think it should be run.

H:The position of the Dai is an important part of Bohra faith. Progressives have no issues with that. The problem is that this position is being misused to deceive and loot the community. The better alternative is that either Sayedna saheb overhauls his regime or appoint a new Dai who can do so.

So you want to retain the position but appoint someone you want…how can that be fair that you as a minority want to impose your person as a leader of Bohras and deny the current satisfaction majority have with Burhanudinn Saheb.

H: "Flaws" is a very charitable description of a system mired in corruption and perversity. What is it that you find "tolerable"? Extorting money from bohras every step of the way? Ex-communication and chitthi band to punish and humiliate them? Misuse of "raza" and "misaq" as instrument of coercion? The complete lack of accountability about where the money collected from people goes and where and how it is spent? The brainwashing of decent bohras into slaves of Sayedna? The complete lack control of members over the properties and affairs of their local jamaat? The transformation of Fatimid doctrine into a cult of Dai? One could go on, but this should be enough for you now to ponder over.

You are exaggerating, the issues are there but not as widespread as you state..not every step not every day. And let us be honest we have many amongst us who are culturally and racially misers…for example we cannot get away paying R5,000 a year wajebaat and sabeel and turn up for over 100 days to use the jamaat facilities, madrassas, Amil and meals and then say we are being squeezed.

H:See my response above. The tamasha that attends Bohra moharrum organised by the Kothar is anything but the solemnity that Imam Hussain's sacrifice deserves. If you find nothing wrong with this tamasha then I've nothing more to say.

You say it is tamasha because you see it as tamasha and over reacting. The tamasha happened outside the masjid and are not propgated..the only fault is they are not discouraging the gatherings and socialising of people…but I bet if they did enforce strict Islamic rules like they do in Saudi Arabaia they will be people on this board claiming fundamentalism and extremism. Your damned if you do damned if you don’t.

H:You have little knowledge of Islam and still less of the Fatimid-Mustalian-Tayebbi faith which Bohras profess. (And perhaps none about the evolutions of science and civilisation.) The "extra" that the kothar has added (not the Bohras) goes against the cardinal principles of Islam and Bohra faith. The use of "raza" and "misaq" are innovations nowhere supported by tradition or source books. The deification of the dai into "haqiqi kaba" and the quran and what not are the perversity of Islam. The life of luxury and extravagance the Dai and his "royal family" live are in direct violation of the teachings of Prophet Mohammed and Ali. The attempt to control the community and become the sole owner of its masjids and properties is an innovation and an expansion of the Dai role into the temporal affairs of Bohras.

Where is it written that it is haram to live a luxurious life style..and whatever they have added has not diminished Islamic values…let us be frank about it. There are many who live without raza and misaq and go about their daily lives.

H:If you look closely, the Bohras as a community are de-evolving or degenerating.

Travel the world and then update your reply..degenerating into what are the number of Bhoras dropping off…evolution and civilization will continue and has done for 1400 years.

H:The rida and saya, dhadi, topi have been introduced and imposed since the early 80s. If "Islamic modesty" was the rationale one would have understood it. But this was a cynical attempt to control people's psychology through such sartorial devices. Is it any wonder then that after a generation of brainwashing not only all bohras look the same but also behave the same: like sheep. Is this what you call civilisation? Progress? Evolution?

Again you are looking at negatives…rida topi dhadhi are Sunna’s in Islam I have no issue with it ..if you see around you the Muslim Ummah as a whole is moving towards the demonstrating their Islamic identity..to mention a few Hashim Amla RSA cricket player, young women in the West going to court so they can wear Hijab..

I am stunned that Progressives have objection to some one who is encouraging Sunnah…it is a sad that our own Muslims do not respect our identity and yet we seek non-Muslims to respect our values more.

H: Spiritual security? What the hell is that? And what mission are you talking about? The Kothar's mission is to bilk the community, and the Bohras mission is submit and surrender to the will of the Sayedna (read Kothar's). That is the real perversion of Islam (which BTW means surrendering to the will of Allah).

You are wrong…The surrender to the will of Dai as a conduit to the will of Allah is the basic fundamental of Fatimid-Ismaili theology..don’t you ask for Dua through Imams and Dais, My strife with you is you are cherry picking and deciding to justify your hate and opposition while playing around with your limited knowledge. If the rules are to be followed it applies to everything 100% not when you decide and when it suits you.

H:Profiteering is the root cause. You have no idea how the byzantine kothar functions. Zulfiqar tried to explain this to you but I guess you do not want to know. The only central concern in this whole "business" called Bohra Inc. is that the well-being of the "royal family" and all it functionaries and hangers-on must be preserved and advanced.

This may be the case but its is the cost many have accepted. Why do you drag every one in your attacks…target the specific people who are corrupt and fleecing. Leave the dai alone and stop trashing around the whole community.

H:Appearance and attire are tools to control your mind. Yes, Islam encourages, but leaves it to the individual and his Allah. It does not encourage imposition of beliefs and lifestyle under pain of ex-communication and other forms of humiliation.

No id not think they are used to control the minds but the extremists within Orthodox in the pursuit of impressing Sayedna force the members. However I have never heard that Sayedna instruct youth who work in the corporate world to replace their suits with Sayas, however I have heard that Kothoar state that if your world environment permits why don’t you display your identity..and I see no issue with that.

H: You must understand the history and social structure of Bohras. They are an extremely small minority even within a Muslim setting; their faith, rituals and customs are unique is so many ways. Bohras outside of their community are like fish out of water. Community provides them religious fulfillment, social connection, kinship, security and satisfaction. The Kohtar know this very well and exploits this Bohra psychology to its advantage. That is why ex-communication and "chitthi band" are seen as the "end of the world" by a common bohra.
The majority of bohras tend to tolerate and ignore the Kohtar's brutality and oppression - not that they don't see it at such - but because they feel it is more important to them to be a part of the community. It fulfills their basic social and psychological needs. If more people are "turning to the fold" it is not because the Kothar is harmless, it is because their need to belong is greater than the pain of being exploited.

AGREE on this occasion and I call upon you to join and tolerate the ups and down too.

H: Do you know that in the 60s(?) the Sayedna was kicked out of Kenya? One Shiekh sahab was caught for smuggling diamonds. And if all the wheelings and dealings by the Kothar are pursued diligently - and if governments and politicians are not regularly bribed - I've no doubt that the "royal family" would be drowning in a sea of money laundering charges. But then, this is not the real issue. The dawat should be more worried about the stains of morality and conscience on it soul.

Over 50 years things change and people learn. Why would I not analyse theses historical events as a strategy of the Progressives who had issue of not accepting to be educated on faith decided to look for a loop hole. In the anger and emotions on both sides one was avictor then influenced the authorities to use money laundering as a reason for deportation.

Mind you what was illegal in 60’s is now quite ok in many countries..such as taking diamonds or large cash is ok as long as it is declared while in 60’s one could never export dollars…now thanks to economic globalisation.

H: Bohras are not a club nor a country. Yes, we all need rules for order and security. But who is going to set the rules and on what basis? Our faith and tradition have clearly outlined these rules: the Quran, Daim ul Islam, Tuhafat ul Qulub and the traditions of the Porphet, Ali, Imams and Dais. The rules that the kothar is imposing on the community are in complete violation of what our books and our religious leaders teach us. It's interesting that you pick up Saudia to make your point. There is no difference between Saudi Arabia and the Kothar, except that one is blessed with oil and the other with sheep; that one is blessed with a country and the other with the sovereignty over bohra soul on earth and in heaven.

You use extreme words..”complete violation”.., prove to me within the context of our scriptures where Sayedna is breaching interpretations to the word by enforcing some of the rules ?
Do you think to govern 1 million people is easy with no rules and people an do what they like and when they like. Your concept is for Sayedna to be a preacher in a church and people do what they like…you forget Islam there is no separation of dunia and din. There is no compulsion to join Islam but when you join you have to follow strict rules. Research the concept for yourself.

H:First of all, sayedna saheb should not be jet-setting around considering his age and health. Do you people have not mercy on the old man? Would anybody in their right mind treat their own father like this - like a trophy to attract crowds. As for what we would expect "our leader" - the responsible Dai - to do, you'll have to wait. First try to digest all of the above.

I am now not sure you sound incencerely to be sympathetic of his health and welfare but opposed to his lifelong mission!

PS: Interesting some people on this board like spectators are cheering you with the classic Indian..waah waah ..thinking because one has posted long ended response he MUST have made the point to shut me up….mates bring it on!