Ashura

[Aarif]

According to Dawoodi Bohra calender tommorrow is the 10th day of Muharram-ul-haram, also known as Ashura. It was on this day 1400 years ago, the beloved grandson of prophet Muhammad(pbuh), Imam Husain(pbuh) was killed along with his family and companions in Karbala by Yazid and his army. Imam Husain's family included the likes of Ali Asgar(pbuh), a six months old child. The battle of Karbala is unique in the history of Islam in the sense that Imam Husain(pbuh) won this battle inspite of loosing it to Yazid and set an extraordinary example of fight of good against evil, for the coming generations of followers of Islam. As it is rightly said by Ali Gauhar that "Qatl-e-Husain asl main marge Yazid hai, Hota hai Islam zinda har Karbala ke baad".

Let us remember the great sacrifice of Imam Husain(pbuh), his family and friends, and add some substance, meaning and value to our life by understanding the crux of this tragic event as it is more important to do so today than ever before.

[Sajid Zafar]

The correct poetry is (By Molana Mohammad Ali Johar, founder of Khilafat Movement with his brother Molana Shaukat Ali during indpence movement of Indian subcontient):

Qatl-e-Husain asel main marge Yazid hai
Islam zinda hota hai her Karbala ke baad.

[porus]

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... isti#p6032

[Danish]

Let us remember the great sacrifice of Imam Husain(pbuh), his family and friends, and add some substance, meaning and value to our life by understanding the crux of this tragic event as it is more important to do so today than ever before.

It's futile to beat around the bush.

[Aarif]

SZ,

Thanx for the correction. However, I feel the message was quite clear..

[porus]

shah ast hussain padshah ast hussain
deen ast hussain, deen panah ast hussain
sar dad na dad dar daste yazid
haqqa ke binai la ilah ast hussain

--- Moinuddin Chisti.


Translation:

King is Hussain, Emperor is Hussain,
Faith is Hussain, protector of faith is Hussain .
He gave his head, but not his hand to Yazid.
Truly, Hussain is the foundation of La-ilah*

*No god except the God

[Aarif]

I had heard this sher when I was in middle east and vaguely remember it:

Maana ki Husain Khuda nahin hein,
Lekin bakaa agar Khuda ko hein toh fanaah Husain ko bhi nahin hein

It means that it is true that Imam Husain is not Allah, but if Allah is immortal than so is Imam Husain. I think if one looks at the philoshophical meaning of this sher instead of literal it makes a lot of sense. His sacrifice is immortal and has inspired generations after generations to stand up and fight against the evil tyrants like Yazid.

[Danish]

It means that it is true that Imam Husain is not Allah, but if Allah is immortal than so is Imam Husain.

That statement in itself makes Hussain an "allah" (the god ... of shias). Remember: Allah, capitalized from a constricted form of al-ilah simply means "The God" (the chief of all gods ~ a human or a manufactured idol). The supernatural, fathomless and unperceivable "Creator of our Universe" cannot possibly have a proper name; only humans and/or "living" creatures do. In plain words, Hussain was/is or became an "allah" for the Shias.

[porus]

Immortality is not a concept you would apply to Allah. It suggests an entity, which once born, does not die. Allah is not born. Allah just is. Thus baqaa, applied to Allah, is a poetic license, as is the Quranic term al-Hayy

Nothing can be compared to Allah (Sura al-Ikhlaas).

Husain was born and he died. His memory is alive and he is 'alive' in metaphysical sense only.

[Aarif]

Good one br. Porus. That is exactly what I was trying to say in my post..

[Aarif]

Let us remember the great sacrifice of Imam Husain(pbuh), his family and friends, and add some substance, meaning and value to our life by understanding the crux of this tragic event as it is more important to do so today than ever before.

It's futile to beat around the bush.

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[Danish]

From my personal standpoint, I've numerous real life commitments and obligations to meet and overcome on a daily basis than to listen to regurgitated and gisi-piti exaggerated stories from various corners of the world every day in Moharram and other holy days throughout lifetime. Yeah, some people never learn and move on to better their own and other's lives but to remain stagnant in their pitiful doomed mindsets.

[like_minded]

From my personal standpoint, I've numerous real life commitments and obligations to meet and overcome on a daily basis than to listen to regurgitated and gisi-piti exaggerated stories from various corners of the world every day in Moharram and other holy days throughout lifetime. Yeah, some people never learn and move on to better their own and other's lives but to remain stagnant in their pitiful doomed mindsets.

Very well said!

[Aarif]

From my personal standpoint, I've numerous real life commitments and obligations to meet and overcome on a daily basis than to listen to regurgitated and gisi-piti exaggerated stories from various corners of the world every day in Moharram and other holy days throughout lifetime. Yeah, some people never learn and move on to better their own and other's lives but to remain stagnant in their pitiful doomed mindsets.

Well if that's the case than this what YOU should add to the above: "I will not read threads that do not interest me. I will not waste my time on past events that are irrelevant according to me and above all I will not waste other people's time who are not atall interested in debating with me "

BTW: This is pure common sense that if someone does think that something does not make any sense and its a sheer waste of time than he/she should keep away from it unless he/she has nothing better to do...

[Danish]

Arif, your replies above are fatwa based ad hominem argument (an invalid fallacy in syllogistic logic).

[Aarif]

Arif, your replies above are fatwa based ad hominem argument (an invalid fallacy in syllogistic logic).

This is pure common sense that if someone does think that something does not make any sense and its a sheer waste of time than he/she should keep away from it unless he/she has nothing better to do...

[Muslim First]

Significance of Fasting the Day of `Ashura'
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... TheScholar

[Danish]

Arif, your replies above are fatwa based ad hominem argument (an invalid fallacy in syllogistic logic).

This is pure common sense that if someone does think that something does not make any sense and its a sheer waste of time than he/she should keep away from it unless he/she has nothing better to do...

Yes, that is true (perhpas) but then, do you believe that "ashura", the dramatized valvalu and the dreadful rituals that comes with it makes any sense? On the contrary, if something does not make any sense, then it is pertinent to present alternate views to either correct it or abolish it; and that is what I am trying to present whereby arguments/discussions can be made and/or justified against my standpoints but giving 'fatwas' like you presented earlier is uncalled for, considering that this is a "progressive" forum and not some Burhanuddin's or his cohert's jageer.

[Aarif]

Yes, that is true (perhpas) but then, do you believe that "ashura", the dramatized valvalu and the dreadful rituals that comes with it makes any sense? On the contrary, if something does not make any sense, then it is pertinent to present alternate views to either correct it or abolish it; and that is what I am trying to present whereby arguments/discussions can be made and/or justified against my standpoints but giving 'fatwas' like you presented earlier is uncalled for, considering that this is a "progressive" forum and not some Burhanuddin's or his cohert's jageer.

Who told you that Ashura and battle of Karbala makes no sense to people like me??? What I said is that it makes no sense to people like you. And in that case I am not interested in debating with you trying to convince you about the importance of this event in the life of muslims.

And who told you that I believe in Syedna's dramatized version of Ashura??? How did you deduce that from my main post in this thread as I have not mentioned anything like that??? Or are you saying that Imam Hussain was never killed in the battle of Karbala fighting against tyranny and injustice because syedna says so??? In fact according to me if bohras had really learnt something from his sacrifice they would have revolted against the tyranny of syedna... Our community is in deep shit because people do not understand the real meaning of this event. And this is the right thread on progressive bohra forum. So in short you did not even understand why I started this thread. And on top of that you are writing one meaningless post after another trying to justify your stupidity...

[Aarif]

Very well said!

LM,

This is one of the most idiotic comments you have ever made. On one side you show your sympathy and devotion to the reformist cause and on the other hand you find the lesson learnt from battle of Karbala as useless. If you will read the articles by Mr. Asgar Ali Engineer, you will realize that he has compared the sacrifice of Imam Hussain and his cause to that of the reformists in almost all of them. So when you say who cares about what happened 1400 yrs ago, you are actually insulting your fellow reformists who are trying to justify their stand using this event as an inspiration. And if you still believe that there is nothing one can learn from this event than I think you are too stupid to understand the basic facts of life and I would leave it at that...

[Danish]

Arif, I'm afraid to mention that you are too darn ignorant and thick headed to understand that Karbala event (as per Shia version) DOES NOT by any means whatsoever make anyone's life better or even remorseful just because they mourn, groan, beat themselves up and make all sorts of gooey claims to justify the present by reconstructing an ancient tragedy which they themselves have no real truth about. Millions of people all across the world from all walks of religious and non-religious lifestyles have and will continue to experience far dreadful and gruesome tragedies than Karbala day-in and day-out, yet they carry on with their lives without making a religious tamasha for lifetime. This is why I mentioned in my very first post that it is futile to beat around the bush.

[Al-Muizz]

Boy, this dude Danish needs some strong medicine, stronger than Prozac...a lobotomy maybe. He sounds like a Wahabi, probably worked for Saddam in the torture chambers......Whacked out character this Danish fella really.

Let me explain this to you, Mr. Oh-So-Damn Busy, President of the World aka Danish the Wahabi.....

1. Shias mourning Husayn A.S martyrdom is like Christians mourning Christ on Easter. It's called FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, STUPID!
2. NO one is making you mourn Imam Husayn or the other martyrs at all, moron! LA KUM DI NUKUM WALEYADIN!
3. Far gruesome tragedies than Kerbela?!?! OK Mr. World President, NAME ONE.......Name One situation where someone had their 6 month old son killed in the name of religion? And don't give me some ignorant posting of Sudan or other God forsaken place....the atrocities in these places HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION. Name a point in History where water was witheld and folks were forced to die of thirst or make pledges of religion to a despot like Yezid (LA)?
4. FYI, since it is "historical" there really is no "proof" other than the ceremonies we maintain, Mr. Genius!
5. What do you believe in,Mr. Know-It-All? If you believe in God, what proof do you have? If you believe in The Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) and his miracles, what proof do you have? If you believe in any ofthe Prophets and their miracles, what proof do you have? If all the tradition is gooey, then why pray? That is a tradition isn't it?

The problem with Islam right now, is Wahabis like Danish.....see what Wahabi teaching has done to Pakis? Turned them into a bunch of uneducated idiots carrying out dumb "fatwas"

Infact, I posit, our good friend Danish isn't Muslim AT ALL!

Arif, I'm afraid to mention that you are too darn ignorant and thick headed to understand that Karbala event (as per Shia version) DOES NOT by any means whatsoever make anyone's life better or even remorseful just because they mourn, groan, beat themselves up and make all sorts of gooey claims to justify the present by reconstructing an ancient tragedy which they themselves have no real truth about. Millions of people all across the world from all walks of religious and non-religious lifestyles have and will continue to experience far dreadful and gruesome tragedies than Karbala day-in and day-out, yet they carry on with their lives without making a religious tamasha for lifetime. This is why I mentioned in my very first post that it is futile to beat around the bush.

[Al Zulfiqar]

muizz, as i have already indicated to u, send in yr scholars and preferably yr leader himself on this forum. ignorant fools like u are not worth our time.

[jayanti]

Another Fool and lots of fool in this forums.
I have question is progressive dawoodi bohra believe in Inam husein? What proof they have?

[like_minded]

Very well said!

LM,

This is one of the most idiotic comments you have ever made. On one side you show your sympathy and devotion to the reformist cause and on the other hand you find the lesson learnt from battle of Karbala as useless. If you will read the articles by Mr. Asgar Ali Engineer, you will realize that he has compared the sacrifice of Imam Hussain and his cause to that of the reformists in almost all of them. So when you say who cares about what happened 1400 yrs ago, you are actually insulting your fellow reformists who are trying to justify their stand using this event as an inspiration. And if you still believe that there is nothing one can learn from this event than I think you are too stupid to understand the basic facts of life and I would leave it at that...

Arif

I fully endorse Danish's views on this subject and on the whole, I share his views on various topics. I am only ready to engage myself with reality.. which is present! I believe, what happened 1400 years ago in middle-east was an unfortunate incident, that's all.

If you are ready to learn and draw inspiration, then just live.... because life itself is the biggest teacher.

[like_minded]

On one side you show your sympathy and devotion to the reformist cause and on the other hand you find the lesson learnt from battle of Karbala as useless.



All I am saying is, what happened 1400 years ago, has no relation whatsoever with our present lives and reality. By grieving and self-flagellating we are just indulging in a ritual which was started long ago...

[Aarif]

Arif, I'm afraid to mention that you are too darn ignorant and thick headed to understand that Karbala event (as per Shia version) DOES NOT by any means whatsoever make anyone's life better or even remorseful just because they mourn, groan, beat themselves up and make all sorts of gooey claims to justify the present by reconstructing an ancient tragedy which they themselves have no real truth about. Millions of people all across the world from all walks of religious and non-religious lifestyles have and will continue to experience far dreadful and gruesome tragedies than Karbala day-in and day-out, yet they carry on with their lives without making a religious tamasha for lifetime. This is why I mentioned in my very first post that it is futile to beat around the bush.

Danish,

Ignorance is a highly subjective word... According to me you don't have to mourn and beat your chest to understand the significance of Karbala and Imam Hussain
Its the inspiration that one derives from grt men. As the saying goes that some men are born great, some become great and greatness is thrusted upon on some...

Out of this the second category is my all time favorate. And Imam Husain belongs to that category. If you cannot derive any inspiration from his greatness I would call that ignorance. There are some idiots who curse Mahatma Gandhi and call him a coward. I would call that ignorance too... So as I said its a matter of perception.

BTW: I am still wondering what one can learn from a person like you if he wants to, who is only interested in coming to this site with the intention of spreading hatred towards muslims and Islam. If I remember correctly you were even once banned by the Admin of this site. So much for a highly evovled and sophisticated specie.

[Aarif]

All I am saying is, what happened 1400 years ago, has no relation whatsoever with our present lives and reality. By grieving and self-flagellating we are just indulging in a ritual which was started long ago...

LM,

Please read my reply to Danish. If you think that mouring and chest beating is the only way one can show repect for the martyrs of Karbala or learn something from them you are seriously mistaken... Let me ask you one simple question... The reformists take lot of inspiration from the sacrifice of Imam Husain while fighting for their cause. Now what do you think about them??? They often criticize syedna for not following the footsteps of prophet and his family. People like Imam Husain have set a beautiful example of life. If everyone tries and imbibes even 5% of that, this world will be a much better place to live. Remember good past is the basis of good future in most of the cases. That is how mankind progresses. Just imagine if all the scientists in the world start thinking the way you think. If they simply go by your advice they will dump all the important achievements of science down the drain and start from scratch because they are only suppose to live in present and not care or think about what happened in the past. I am sure that Danish did not understand the meaning of this thread. By blindly endorsing his views you have ended up making a fool out of yourself.

[porus]

I am only ready to engage myself with reality.. which is present! I believe, what happened 1400 years ago in middle-east was an unfortunate incident, that's all.

Past, as they say, is prologue.

It is very admirable, but not very achievable, to live in full consciousness of the present moment, which is the only 'reality' anyone experiences.

However, what you are conscious of is determined by the choices you make, which in turn is determined by the 'past'. There is really no difference between the events that happened a thousand years ago and those that happened an hour ago except how you structure them in your mind.

Out of millions of bits of information that continually impinge on your consciouness every moment, you filter in only those that make sense to you according your conditioning, that is acording to your beliefs.

So, essentially, there is no difference between a person who mourns Husain's sacrifice and the one who mourns a recently deceased loved one. To be sure, the latter appears more immediate but, by a fiat, the former can be made to appear more immediate also, which appears to be the function of the Waaiz.

[porus]

...Karbala event (as per Shia version) DOES NOT by any means whatsoever make anyone's life better ....

To ask the Shia to abandon the commemoration of Karbala is tantamount to asking him to abondon the Quran altogether.

On this forum, we have discussed special importance the Shia place on Ahlul Bayt (ayat 33:33). Hadith of the cloak, narrated amongst others by Aaisha, clearly identifies Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain as ahlul bayt.

In addition, the famous episode of Mubahila, as narrated in ayat 3:61 identifies the same five persons as ahlul bayt.

Allah commands Rasulullah to say (ayat 42:23) that the only reward he (Rasul) seeks from the believers is the love of ahlul bayt.

Is there a reference to Karbala in the Quran? The Shia very clearly say "yes, there is". One of the most important events the Quran describes is how Ibrahim's sacrifice of his son was averted at the last moment. Surely, there was no one Ibrahim loved more than Ismail, but he was prepared to give him up for will of Allah. But it did not end there.

37:106 "Inna hadha la-huwa al-bala al-mubeen" (This was indeed a manifest trial)

However, immeidately in the following ayat:

37:107 "wa fadayna-hu bi-dhibhin adheem" (And we ransomed him with a tremendous sacrifice)

All the Shia mufassireen have agreed that the tremendous sacrifice referred to in 37:107 is the one that was fulfilled in Karbala. It was the ransom which bought the life of Ismail but was ultimately redeemed in Karbala.

The promise that Allah made to Ibrahim was that Imams will be from his progeny (ayat 2:124) but they will first have to demonstrate absolute rectitude. Muhammad made sure in the initial upbringing of Husain that he would be worthy of the ransom postponed during Ibrahim's prophethood.

Husain's conduct in his last days at Karbala is a universal object lesson for everyone as it speaks with the same vehemence today as it did nearly 1400 years ago.