Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
aliakbar
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:40 pm

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#691

Unread post by aliakbar » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:27 am

Bori85 wrote:What's happening with this project, any current news on this?
SBUT has applied for indiviual IOD & CC for each cluster & they have done it for cluster no.1, where they have gona build syedna muffadals & other kasre jaali 88 rooms with garden behind & all dis is opposite saifee masjid qibla. as per info obtained by me musu people have raised objection on cluster 1 & trying to file a case in high court to get stay on work. but they delhiwalas are sale-able for good rates. next SBUT are trying level best in cluster no. 3, where SBUT are gona face a lot by another fighter Tenant Tinwala opp Zainabia Imamwada. lets see how do they get over him & how they get IOD & CC for cluster 3 also. here in bhendi bazar SBUT & the kasre jaali is gona fail for sure. SBUT had promised Tenants in 2009 & 2010 they will redeveloped in 3 years & yet after 4 years they are still looking here & there. busy stuffing their own pockets. dirt of bhendi bazar awaits to taste their tounge.



Bori85
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:48 pm

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#692

Unread post by Bori85 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:06 pm

aliakbar wrote:
Bori85 wrote:What's happening with this project, any current news on this?
SBUT has applied for indiviual IOD & CC for each cluster & they have done it for cluster no.1, where they have gona build syedna muffadals & other kasre jaali 88 rooms with garden behind & all dis is opposite saifee masjid qibla. as per info obtained by me musu people have raised objection on cluster 1 & trying to file a case in high court to get stay on work. but they delhiwalas are sale-able for good rates. next SBUT are trying level best in cluster no. 3, where SBUT are gona face a lot by another fighter Tenant Tinwala opp Zainabia Imamwada. lets see how do they get over him & how they get IOD & CC for cluster 3 also. here in bhendi bazar SBUT & the kasre jaali is gona fail for sure. SBUT had promised Tenants in 2009 & 2010 they will redeveloped in 3 years & yet after 4 years they are still looking here & there. busy stuffing their own pockets. dirt of bhendi bazar awaits to taste their tounge.
Thanks aliakbar bhai for the update, so now the cheat Muffy gang is only worried about their own houses, they are trying to get all this permission to build homes for themselves and their extended family members, so what about the DB's who were living there opp Saifee Masjid bldngs, they have been sent to Anjirwadi and Sewri and now poor guys have lost their prime properties and seems they are never going to get back their homes in Bhindi bazaar area.



abde53
Posts: 296
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#693

Unread post by abde53 » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:16 pm

People who lost their properties in Bhendi Bazar Upliftment should file the law suit against Ashraf Dahodwala to collect their lost properties. My friend in USA told me that people can file the Civil Law Suit against Ash Dahod for Ponzi scheme. Any advocate on the forum can comment
Working with Shamim, a medical doctor who has survived two bouts with cancer, Ash Dahod has funded projects at Lowell General Hospital, Boston University, and Boston Medical Center. In Mumbai, the Dahod family helped build Saifee Hospital, a state-of-the-art facility that offers subsidized care for people in need, and they are involved in an “upliftment” project to provide new homes for 3,200 families by redeveloping a densely populated 16.5 acres of dilapidated buildings in the heart of Mumbai.
https://www.alumni.hbs.edu/stories/Page ... x?num=3986



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#694

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:07 pm

abde53 wrote:My friend in USA told me that people can file the Civil Law Suit against Ash Dahod for Ponzi scheme. Any advocate on the forum can comment
As Ashraf Dahodwala is a US citizen, the proceedings will have to be fled in USA and for that you will need some good American lawyers, Indian lawyers wont do.



aliakbar
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:40 pm

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#695

Unread post by aliakbar » Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:50 pm

Working with Shamim, a medical doctor who has survived two bouts with cancer, Ash Dahod has funded projects at Lowell General Hospital, Boston University, and Boston Medical Center. In Mumbai, the Dahod family helped build Saifee Hospital, a state-of-the-art facility that offers subsidized care for people in need, and they are involved in an “upliftment” project to provide new homes for 3,200 families by redeveloping a densely populated 16.5 acres of dilapidated buildings in the heart of Mumbai.
https://www.alumni.hbs.edu/stories/Page ... x?num=3986
[/quote]

boss somebody update me who is ashraf dahodwala,,, is he related to Murtuza dahodwala who had given 100 cr in saifee hospital.
& can any body pass on some authentic information with some documents how much he has invested,,, when ,,, & by what ways, so we can inquire more & one day he can be brought to law for cheating 4700 families in connivance with quid jhonny. Q.J



Muslim First
Posts: 6892
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#696

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:13 pm

aliakbar wrote:
Working with Shamim, a medical doctor who has survived two bouts with cancer, Ash Dahod has funded projects at Lowell General Hospital, Boston University, and Boston Medical Center. In Mumbai, the Dahod family helped build Saifee Hospital, a state-of-the-art facility that offers subsidized care for people in need, and they are involved in an “upliftment” project to provide new homes for 3,200 families by redeveloping a densely populated 16.5 acres of dilapidated buildings in the heart of Mumbai.
https://www.alumni.hbs.edu/stories/Page ... x?num=3986
boss somebody update me who is ashraf dahodwala,,, is he related to Murtuza dahodwala who had given 100 cr in saifee hospital.
& can any body pass on some authentic information with some documents how much he has invested,,, when ,,, & by what ways, so we can inquire more & one day he can be brought to law for cheating 4700 families in connivance with quid jhonny. Q.J[/quote]

Ashraf Dahodwala s/o dr Mansur Dahodwala is known as Murtaza Dahodwala in Bohri circles. SMB change his name and also his wife Dr Shamim's name.



SBM
Posts: 6214
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#697

Unread post by SBM » Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:54 pm

Murtuza and Ashraf Dahodwala are the same people. His original name is Ashraf and he shortened it to Ash but he was given name of Murtuza,
His wife is known by Shamim but was given some other name by Moula



Dr Fatema
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:38 am

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#698

Unread post by Dr Fatema » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:45 am

Mr. Adil Zainulbhai has been appointed by PM Modi as Chairman of Quality Council whose responsibilities are to giv suggestions to prime minister about how to improve manufacturing sector of the country. Mr. Adil Zainulbhai is also part of the Saifee Burhani Upliftment Trust rebuilding Bhendi Bazar in Mumbai apart from being on board of directors of major companies.
Attachments
10585186_817318008320914_768542739_n.jpg



Sufi monk
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:34 am

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#699

Unread post by Sufi monk » Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:49 am

Dr Fatema wrote:Mr. Adil Zainulbhai has been appointed by PM Modi as Chairman of Quality Council whose responsibilities are to giv suggestions to prime minister about how to improve manufacturing sector of the country. Mr. Adil Zainulbhai is also part of the Saifee Burhani Upliftment Trust rebuilding Bhendi Bazar in Mumbai apart from being on board of directors of major companies.
wow this is quite interesting and encouraging for bohra community.

now progs and others cant blame that bohras are "kuaa naa dedka"



jungle999
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:26 am

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#700

Unread post by jungle999 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:39 pm

Mr. Adil Zainulbhai. is another right hand for Mufaddal Maula in gov will we have to waite and see what he does for bohras.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#701

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:04 am

Sufi monk wrote:
Dr Fatema wrote:Mr. Adil Zainulbhai has been appointed by PM Modi as Chairman of Quality Council whose responsibilities are to giv suggestions to prime minister about how to improve manufacturing sector of the country. Mr. Adil Zainulbhai is also part of the Saifee Burhani Upliftment Trust rebuilding Bhendi Bazar in Mumbai apart from being on board of directors of major companies.
wow this is quite interesting and encouraging for bohra community.
now progs and others cant blame that bohras are "kuaa naa dedka"

This is not encouraging, it is pure politics ! the crores of donations are now coming to use. SMS will plant his cronies into government and control the community, politically too. We have seen SMS camp is more active towards garnering political clout then involve in social upliftment and work towards needy issues. He is happy donating community’s wealth to political leaders where none such help is required.



tasneempati
Posts: 260
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:44 am

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#702

Unread post by tasneempati » Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:51 am

I do not agree with humanbeing. SMS gropu is doing at least something. What SKQ group is doing - hiding in Dar-us-Sakina & nothing else
humanbeing wrote:
Sufi monk wrote: wow this is quite interesting and encouraging for bohra community.
now progs and others cant blame that bohras are "kuaa naa dedka"

This is not encouraging, it is pure politics ! the crores of donations are now coming to use. SMS will plant his cronies into government and control the community, politically too. We have seen SMS camp is more active towards garnering political clout then involve in social upliftment and work towards needy issues. He is happy donating community’s wealth to political leaders where none such help is required.



dawedaar
Posts: 844
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:40 pm

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#703

Unread post by dawedaar » Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:01 pm

adil.PNG



UnhappyBohra
Posts: 557
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:23 pm

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#704

Unread post by UnhappyBohra » Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:53 pm

dawedaar wrote:
adil.PNG
I wonder if Mr. Zainulbhai plans to do anything regarding the "quality" of the all-but-dead SBUT project that he is on the board of. So far the displaced residents have had a pretty low quality experience. Is any building ever going to get erected in this development or has all the money gone to line people's pockets?



Akhtiar Wahid
Posts: 802
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:22 am

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#705

Unread post by Akhtiar Wahid » Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:24 pm

khuda Mushrikeen ko is kadar duniya mein uncha charata hain ke jab woh usko girata hain toh aawaz bhi nahee aati!



zinger
Posts: 1951
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#706

Unread post by zinger » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:10 am

HussainMakkaji wrote:Very Impressive congratulations to whole community for this proud moment.
Bohras are winning all fronts....while our gair are cutting each other throats.

Hello Hello Hello :mrgreen:



tasneempati
Posts: 260
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:44 am

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#707

Unread post by tasneempati » Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:39 am

UnhappyBohra wrote:
dawedaar wrote:
adil.PNG
I wonder if Mr. Zainulbhai plans to do anything regarding the "quality" of the all-but-dead SBUT project that he is on the board of. So far the displaced residents have had a pretty low quality experience. Is any building ever going to get erected in this development or has all the money gone to line people's pockets?
With the blessings of Dr QJ BS Mr. Zainulbhai can do wonders for not only SBUT but any project. May be first building is not get erected till the SMS & SKQ amend their differences.



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#708

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:08 pm

PIL on Bhendi Bazaar redevelopment project

Monday, October 06, 2014

Social activist Priya Rathod has filed a Public Interest Litigation (PIL) in the Supreme Court demanding a Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) probe into the Bhendi Bazaar redevelopment project, the city’s biggest, by the Saifee Burhani Upliftment Trust (SBUT).

In her petition, the activist has alleged that the underworld is playing a key role by threatening residents and shopkeepers to vacate their place. “The SBUT has hired the underworld to forcefully vacate both the residential and commercial establishments to pave way for redevelopment work,” claimed Priya Rathod.

Earlier this year, the Bombay High Court had dismissed her petition for lack of evidence to back the allegation. “This time we are prepared. We have strong evidence, including the names of some former ministers from the Prithviraj Chavan government and few sitting legislators,” she informed.

The Bhendi Bazaar redevelopment scheme comprises nine clusters in an area of 16.5 acres; each of these will have two or three towers. Of the 17 buildings planned, 12 will be reserved for about 20,000 tenants. The revamp, which has been undertaken by the SBUT, is one of the two clusters under the state’s 2008 policy aimed at the holistic development of the city’s old congested localities. The project stretches from the J J Flyover junction at Byculla to Minara Masjid in the South and is to be completed in phases by 2020.

According to Rathod's lawyer K T Thomas, the tenants in Bhendi Bazaar fear eviction by the underworld without being provided alternative accommodation. “My client (Priya Rathod) is seeking a thorough CBI probe into the matter,” he said.

Priya Rathod, a resident of Bhendi Bazaar, claimed that the whole Bhendi Bazaar project by the SBUT is an eye-wash as there is no clear road map. “The cost projections, the total sum of capital involved, source of funding, the final price of flats when they will be sold, the promises made to existing tenants, the prices paid for purchasing, the sizes of flats which will be given in compensation to those who will be dislocated, where and how they will be re-located, etc, all these important facts are being deliberately kept vague,” she pointed out.

The 38-year-old Priya Rathod said that majority of people in Bhendi Bazaar do not have the resources and money to approach the authorities or go to court.

“On the behest of the people, I have approached India’s highest appellate court demanding a CBI investigation to unearth the nexus between the previous government and SBUT,” she concluded.

http://www.afternoondc.in/city-news/pil ... cle_121254



Moiz_Dhaanu
Posts: 326
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#709

Unread post by Moiz_Dhaanu » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:55 pm

Can anyone confirm if this PIL is a genuine one.
I ask this , cause in the past the mafia culture at SBUT has been known to play such convoluted games.
The theory here is that since for a long time this Project has been marred in controversies and money-scandals, the management knows that they will never be able to deliver what they have promised .
And to top it off they have the audacity of now blaming the Court case to be the main hurdle to the completion of the project.
The gullible abdes just need to hear the name of "Dawat Court-case" and they are willing to look away from the rampant mishandling and corruption in the SBUT.
ShzQJ is exactly doing what the Indian and Pakistan government does , whenever they have a critical situation that they cannot handle , they start border clashes to divert the attention of the masses.
So similarly this time they(Kothar and SBUT) have come up with one more false propoganda(PIL), and i guess that this PIL is nothing but an insiders trick to add to those reasons , to convince the gullible abdes that its not the SBUT's fault that project is stuck.
They(Kothar and SBUT) will later say that " Due to all this dushman tactics and hinderances(PIL) we were unable to complete the project"
No one will say that it was sheer incompetancy and corruption that led to the downfall, and the slimy ShzQJ and his cohorts will go scot-free after looting dawats money in the name of the project. In hindsight i am guessing that this activist Priya Rathod might just be another paid pawn in the hands of Shz QJ.



fustrate_Bohra
Posts: 678
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:46 am

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#710

Unread post by fustrate_Bohra » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:05 pm

Rumours had been going around shiah circle that zainabia hall had been sold by Mr. Rizvi. To clear this doubts they had made an announcement through their Maulana whose waaz are heard all over mumbai that this news is crap and they are only in talking terms. They also said Mr. Rizvi will first take consultation from their leader if he permits than only he will consider moving zainabia hall else not.

Our jamaat are offering them 2 additional floor apart from existing 2 floors in the new location



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#711

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:07 pm

fustrate_Bohra wrote:Rumours had been going around shiah circle that zainabia hall had been sold by Mr. Rizvi. To clear this doubts they had made an announcement through their Maulana whose waaz are heard all over mumbai that this news is crap and they are only in talking terms. They also said Mr. Rizvi will first take consultation from their leader if he permits than only he will consider moving zainabia hall else not.

Our jamaat are offering them 2 additional floor apart from existing 2 floors in the new location
Received on watsup :-

Image



fustrate_Bohra
Posts: 678
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:46 am

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#712

Unread post by fustrate_Bohra » Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:16 pm

Ok, thanks for the pics.

As per their announcement this is only rumours and mr. Rizvi has NOT sold zainabia. Zainabia hall may be consider to shift at different location only after their leader permits.



SBM
Posts: 6214
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#713

Unread post by SBM » Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:14 pm




ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#714

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:39 pm

SBM wrote:Can this apply to SBUT projects

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... =TOI_AShow
This is a very interesting article and the tenants of SBUT should take a legal opinion based on the case cited therein. However it has to be noted that the subject case pertains to a matter in the state of Gujarat wherein the tenancy acts and Rent Control Act are different from the ones in the state of Maharashtra where SBUT functions.



rational_guy
Posts: 205
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:21 am

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#715

Unread post by rational_guy » Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:50 am

Backroom deals are undercutting the poor

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 084897.cms

Situated on a busy street near the massive Saifee Mosque and the mausoleum, Roza-e-Tahera in Bhendi Bazaar, Zainabia Imambada is a magnet to mourners of Muharram. No Azadari (rituals of mourning for the martyrs of Karbala) for the city's Shias is complete without a visit to Zainabia Imambada, the two-storey shrine distinguished by a string of black flags hanging from its walls and rooftop. But these days Zainabia, a centre of solemn prayers, preaching and recitations of mournful poetry, is in the eye of a storm. The Imambada may get a new address, a proposal which is being fiercely opposed by a section of the Shias.

Zainabia Trust, headed by builder and educationist Akhtar Hasan Rizvi, signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) in 2012 with Saifee Burhani Upliftment Trust (SBUT), which is in charge of the redevelopment project in Bhendi Bazaar. According to the MoU, SBUT will construct a new building which, unlike the current structure that houses the Imambada and also several families, will be an independent structure dedicated to Azadari-related functions alone.

"The tenants living on the current Imambada premises will get bigger flats in the new structure and even the approach to the new Imambada will be wider. It will also have space for parking," says Rizvi. "I am aghast that those opposing the plan are wearing blinkers and cannot see the benefits of the project, like bigger halls for mourning and lectures. There is shortage of space at Zainabia."



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#716

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:28 pm

As per earlier reports, SBUT wanted to shift Imambada to Noor Baug (they have bought this place) after pulling down the market which stands there on a temporary structure as tenants of that market would be rehabilitated in Bhendi Bazar again once the project is complete. Now WHEN the project will be completed is anyones guess !!!!



alivasan
Posts: 352
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 9:28 am

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#717

Unread post by alivasan » Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:43 pm

The guy in attached pic is fraud who had worked with SBUT and was blacklisted. If anyone has any information regarding Hussain abbasbhai panwala resident of sagwara please write to aliasgar4u14@rocket mail.com. HE IS WANTED in VISA FRAUD CASE and many other criminal cases in Mumbai.
Attachments
hussainmanna1.jpg
SBUT Letter BlackListing Hussain abbasbhai Panwala
hussain abbas manna.jpg
alamdar contractor



Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#718

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:35 pm

alivasan wrote:The guy in attached pic is fraud who had worked with SBUT and was blacklisted. If anyone has any information regarding Hussain abbasbhai panwala resident of sagwara please write to aliasgar4u14@rocket mail.com. HE IS WANTED in VISA FRAUD CASE and many other criminal cases in Mumbai.
he is presently hiding in the dungeons below saifee mahal and is a guest of mufatlal, who collects such unsavoury goondas so that he can unleash them on the community when the need arises or when 'special tasks' need to be carried out. you get my drift... :wink:

since the fellow is a paanwala, he is ideal for 'supari'.



alivasan
Posts: 352
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 9:28 am

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#719

Unread post by alivasan » Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:32 am

I can't ignore this possibility. Maybe he is creation of very same goons who claims to be parezgar.this guy might be there pawn. Sachu kahu to Dudh na dhoyela koi nathi



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: Dream Project of Bhendi Bazar

#720

Unread post by humanbeing » Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:38 am

asad wrote:"They did not give me any agreement and what I would be getting post redevelopment," said Nafisa. Her advocate argued in court that "SBUT, under the guise of demolishing the suit building, are trying to dispossess the plaintiff from the suit premises."

Nafisa's advocate further contended that SBUT was "Not providing suitable transit accommodation to the plaintiff, and also not ready to execute the registered agreement with the plaintiff to provide her permanent alternate accommodation in the newly constructed building that may be constructed after demolishing the present suit building. Therefore, the learned advocate urged that the appeal be allowed and status-quo be continued to protect possession and interests of the plaintiff."

The SBUT advocate however, argued that 47 of the 48 tenants in the building had moved out and if she did not, there would be danger to her life and that of her family. It also stated that Mumbai Buildings Repari and Reconstruction Board had directed it to demolish the building to avoid any untoward incident. The court stated that the two parties unfortunately could not settle the matter amicably.

It then stated that until another case is settled, Nafisa and her family be allowed to live there. "The original case is with respect to the tenancy rights of Nafisa," said Nasima Don, solicitor under whose firm the case was fought.

dna contacted SBUT officials, but there was no response from them.

http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report-c ... es-2041967
What could be the reason, that nafisa ben masawala is not granted transit accommodation neither being provided with legal agreement of her settlement at SBUT once developed ?

I have had general talks on this SBUT project with devoted abdes, and they too are pessimistic about its development. It seems so messed up and complex. Moreover with political clout getting stronger, these Kothari thugs are getting more and more bolder. They come with sweet sugar coated knife, whether one bend bow and crawl or not, they are going to slaughter you any ways.