DB-A Personality Cult with Sinister Mind Control

[Aarif]

Here we go again. After all this you go back to the same idiotic argument that began all this. No wonder your Imam had to go into hiding. I have to go into hiding too now!!! Unlike your Imam though, I won't be going into hiding for hundreds of years. That would be a bit too much. That would show that I am really really scared. Shit scared!!

And there you go with your BS again. It would be better if you would go into hiding and never come back.

BTW: The prophet was not a coward even though he put Ali's life in danger and escaped but the Imam was a coward because he is not a prophet even though he did the same thing. Another example of brilliant logic. And if you believe that the Imam is still hiding somwhere than there is no difference between you and the abdes. The Imam like every other human being had a limited life span and is obviously dead like other human beings die.

The question is not what happened to the Imam afterwards. The question is whether he went into hiding just beacause he was a coward or not?

[anajmi]

Right!! And the prophet went into hiding and died in hiding like the Imam. No one ever heard from the Prophet again!!!! The guy who turned up in Madina a few days later was someone else.

[Aarif]

Right!! And the prophet went into hiding and died in hiding like the Imam. No one ever heard from the Prophet again!!!! The guy who turned up in Madina a few days later was someone else.

Depends upon the time and situation. If the situation would have been right do you think the Imam will leave such a powerful position and lead rest of his life in seclusion?

[anajmi]

You think the Imam was facing a tougher situation than the prophet was? We know exactly what happened during the time of the prophet. You have no clue about what happened during the time of the Imam. You guys have nothing except conjecture!! If the Imam was in such a powerful position, then why did he have to go into hiding? And what a hiding that neither he nor his generations have been able to come out of it!!

[Aarif]

If the Imam was in such a powerful position, then why did he have to go into hiding?

I am talking about his power and position among his people. Don't you think that it is basic human nature to remain in an influential position as compared to hide somewhere so that nobody knows about him?

And please do not underestimate the Imams. The sacrifice of Imam Husain in Karbala is one of the biggest sacrifices in the history of world... I am not comparing an Imam with the prophet but then I would not dumb him down to a coward as well just based on my personal opinion...

[anajmi]

I am talking about his power and position among his people.

And so he had to go into hiding for what again? If he had power and position amongst his people he didn't need to go into hiding fearing someone might kill him. People in power are always threatened. Otherwise all middle eastern dictators would've been in hiding.

The prophet had no power or position amongst the people in Mecca. He had only a few close followers. He went to Madina because a majority of people over there backed him. He didn't have to go into hiding anymore once he had power and position. He fought from there and ultimately conquered Mecca.

The sacrifice of Imam Husain in Karbala is one of the biggest sacrifices in the history of world

It is time we stopped equating other Imams and Dai with Imam Hussain. No one who followed him was like him.

[Aarif]

And so he had to go into hiding for what again? If he had power and position amongst his people he didn't need to go into hiding fearing someone might kill him.

I think you again missed the point. This example is crude but will suffice the purpose. The present Dai is the most powerful man among DBs. Outside DB community people do not even know him and nobody would submit to him or accept his authority. He is a powerful man among his people i.e. among 600-700 thousand DBs. Now if he has to go hiding for some reason which is obviously not created by DBs (i.e. his own people) and appoint a deputy in his place don't you think that he will obviously want to come back ASAP? Which one do you think he will prefer? Hide and lead rest of the life in seclusion or come back and claim the power?

Just so that you know Imam Tayyib, the 21st Imam who went into seclusion was a 2 yr old child and he was sent into seclusion by his father. The first Dai was appointed by Hurratul-Malika after the death of Tayyib's father to spread the faith. What happened to that child later on is not clear. But based on this history you are actually calling a two year old child a coward who was sent into seclusion by his father when he was on his death bed...

[anajmi]

You are right. I miss all the points you are trying to make again. I have no clue what you just said. You are saying a 2 year, who had power and position amongst his followers, had to go into hiding? Or are you saying the father had power and position but sent his child into hiding for reasons unknown? Maybe he got tired of the post of Imam, sent his child into hiding, with an alternate identity, so he wouldn't have to go through the same life that the father had to go through. The child and his later generations are looking at the DBs and having a laugh!!

[Aarif]

You have no clue because you have purposely decided to remain clueless. If you were the Imam and if your son's life would have been in danger what you would have done? Since, I am not making any sense I would like to know an answer from you which would make sense. And as I have mentioned that anything that I will say you will find a way to ridicule it. Because it does not suit your way of thinking.

BTW: you are the one who started with an allegation that since the Imam went into hiding he was coward. I guess you shot on your foot because you did not realize that the Imam was 2 yrs old child.

[anajmi]

Oh!! Now I understand. Since the Imam was 2 years old when he went into hiding, he acted exactly as the prophet did when he migrated from Mecca to Madina. Great thinking and fantastic logic. Damn, I shot myself in the foot again!!

[Aarif]

Oh!! Now I understand. Since the Imam was 2 years old when he went into hiding, he acted exactly as the prophet did when he migrated from Mecca to Madina.

Would you still stick to your original argument which started this whole discussion? Because now that argument looks something like "Since, the 2 years old Imam was sent to seclusion by his father the 2 years old Imam was a coward?" Do you expect me to buy this?

[anajmi]

I am not that stupid. A 2 year old has no clue. There was no hikmah behind his going into hiding except his fathers concern for his child especially since the child never came out of hiding. Hopefully you will stop comparing this with the migration of the prophet.

[Aarif]

Sure once you will stop calling that two year old child a coward. I am not interested in comparing anyone with the prophet.

[anajmi]

So here is my theory about this entire episode. The future Imam was sent into hiding when he was 2 years old. He probably had no clue that he was going into hiding let alone the reason behind it. He probably grew up an ordinary man never realizing that he was the Imam and that he had to come out of hiding. His descendents probably lived similar lives. If they became bohras then they might probably be standing with folded hands in front of the Dai. Or if they were smarter than that, they are probably on this forum fighting the Dai worshippers.

[Aarif]

So here is my theory about this entire episode. The future Imam was sent into hiding when he was 2 years old. He probably had no clue that he was going into hiding let alone the reason behind it. He probably grew up an ordinary man never realizing that he was the Imam and that he had to come out of hiding.

Or probably he was killed as child by his enemies and that is why he never returned back.

His descendents probably lived similar lives. If they became bohras then they might probably be standing with folded hands in front of the Dai. Or if they were smarter than that, they are probably on this forum fighting the Dai worshippers.

If this part is probably true than there are some probable DBs who are probably direct decendents of the prophet... I hope the kothar does not get any ideas from your theory of probability as it would only make matters worse for the DBs. The dai will start claiming that now he is controlling the probable decendents of the prophet and since they are probably standing with folded hands in front of him he is probably "definitely" Allah on earth...

I would not get too much into this probability business as it would be nothing but mere speculation and waste of time...

[anajmi]

Or probably he was killed as child by his enemies and that is why he never returned back.

The father sends him into hiding to save his life and he still gets killed.

If this part is probably true than there are some probable DBs who are probably direct decendents of the prophet

Actually the descendents of the Imam would also be the descendents of the prophet. So my "probables" covered them already.

So you have decided to write against the prophet every time I write against the Imam right? Smart move. Keep it up!!

[Aarif]

The father sends him into hiding to save his life and he still gets killed.

The father was on his death bed. After his death PROBABLY his enemies found the child and killed him. And if this does not suit your taste than probably he died of some illness. Now please don't tell me that people who go hiding cannot die...

So you have decided to write against the prophet every time I write against the Imam right? Smart move. Keep it up!!

Actually you are the one who is insulting the prophet by writing about his decendents in this manner and calling them slaves of corrupt Dai. I thought that you were smart enough to figure out that my reply was for your idiotic probabilty analysis and has nothing to do with the prophet (pbuh).

And finally I am really not sure what are you trying to prove with this probability crap?

[anajmi]

Just trying to prove that I can take you around in circles without you even knowing about it.

"Probably" can take us in many different idiotic directions. Death by murder, death by sickness, life as abde syednas etc etc!!!

The conclusion is that the Imam went or was sent into hiding to save his life and no one knows what happened to him or his descendents. The prophet migrated to Madina and delivered the complete message of Allah.

[anajmi]

israfild,

This is a question that I posted for you which got lost in the subsequent junk. Can you please comment?

israfild,

The point that i wanted to drive through my post was that,
1.) According to the Shia (ithna ashari, or bohras or khoja shias etc) there has to be a Sahib-uz-zamaan which is none but the Imam-Uz-zamaan (AS).
2.) No body apart from the ones i mentioned earlier can answer all questions. NOBODY AT ALL

1.) That has no basis in the Quran or the Sunnah of the prophet. It is according to these sects only.
2.) Have you asked any unanswerable questions to these people and received answers?

[Aarif]

So you have decided to write against the prophet every time I write against the Imam right? Smart move. Keep it up!!

In one post you call me smart and in other post you THINK you are taking me around in circles. And believe me you are the biggest fool on this forum if you thought that I bought your probabibility shit.

The conclusion is that the Imam went or was sent into hiding to save his life and no one knows what happened to him or his descendents. The prophet migrated to Madina and delivered the complete message of Allah.

Your argument was that the Imam was a coward and that is why he went into hiding to save his skin. Now that we know the Imam was a child who was sent by his father in seclusion you are desperately insulting the prophet and his decendents to prove your stupid theory of probability. According to me the conclusion is that the Imam was not a coward. Now do you want to start all over again. Because I do not have anymore time to waste on you. As far as I am concerned your window of wasting my time is now closed

[anajmi]

In one post you call me smart and in other post you THINK you are taking me around in circles.

Did I call you smart? Oops. My mistake. I remember calling you a fool a few dozen posts earlier and you haven't said anything smart since then to change my mind, then how the hell did I end up calling you smart? Was that a sarcastic remark? Don't know. Can never tell.

According to me the conclusion is that the Imam was not a coward.

Smart conclusion. The 2 year old was not a coward.

Here is a better one.

The conclusion is that the Imam went or was sent into hiding to save his life and no one knows what happened to him or his descendents. The prophet migrated to Madina and delivered the complete message of Allah.

[Aarif]

Anajmi said: A leader goes into hiding to save his own skin. Infact, I do not understand the logic of that. If the leader were to die fisabilillah, he would be setting a much better example than by going into hiding!! Allah has always come to the aid of all his messengers whose lives were threatened. None of them went into hiding.

Anajmi said: Smart conclusion. The 2 year old was not a coward.

Laughing at your own logic Huh!. Calling yourself a fool? Expecting a 2 year old child to set an great example of a true leader? Tch tch... I will spare you from your misery by not going any further than this. After all a good muslim should always be merciful

[anajmi]

According to me the conclusion is that the Imam was not a coward.

Laughing at your own logic Huh!. Calling yourself a fool? Expecting a 2 year old child to set an great example of a true leader?

[Aarif]

According to me the conclusion is that the Imam was not a coward.

Smart conclusion. The 2 year old was not a coward.

So are you trying to tell me that if a person is two years old he is a coward.

You have still not clarified your original post:

Anajmi said: A leader goes into hiding to save his own skin. Infact, I do not understand the logic of that. If the leader were to die fisabilillah, he would be setting a much better example than by going into hiding!! Allah has always come to the aid of all his messengers whose lives were threatened. None of them went into hiding.

So what's your conclusion on this?

[anajmi]

No, I am just trying to tell you that a 2 year old is just that. A 2 year old!! Trying to figure out whether he was a coward or not would be pretty stupid unless you are an adult with the brain of a 2 year old.

My conclusion is that this was a pretty stupid discussion where we started comparing the actions of a 2 year old who was sent into hiding to those of the prophet(saw) when he migrated from mecca to madina.

My original post was in response to this

As far as my knowledge of the instances of the time is concerned, the Shias as a community including the leader (AS) were under oppression and threat of life. The hiding of the Imam (AS) was from the oppressors and not from the followers.

It is common sense that when a leader has a threat to life, he does not disclose his location and appoints some responsible deputy / deputies to convey his message and commands to his followers. This does not imply that the deputy is more brave than the leader but rather its a strategic decision.

You should seek clarification from the author of this post first. According to the above post the Dai was appointed by the 2 year old. No wonder we ended up with the current Dai.

[Aarif]

My original post was in response to this

As far as my knowledge of the instances of the time is concerned, the Shias as a community including the leader (AS) were under oppression and threat of life. The hiding of the Imam (AS) was from the oppressors and not from the followers.

It is common sense that when a leader has a threat to life, he does not disclose his location and appoints some responsible deputy / deputies to convey his message and commands to his followers. This does not imply that the deputy is more brave than the leader but rather its a strategic decision.

Unfortunately you have not read my posts properly. I have clearly mentioned that the Dai was appointed on instruction of the 2 years old father by Huratul-Malika and not by the 2 year old Imam. Going by that the above post makes sense. The Imam did establish the post of Dai before dying. But your post still does not make any sense. Because the 2 year old's father could not have set an example of a great leader since he died and the 2 year old was too small to become a great leader.

Now grow up a pair of balls and accept the fact that your post was nothing but a false allegation to insult the Imam for no reason what so ever. This should not be too much for someone who considers himself a true follower of Islam which was established by a prophet who was an ideal example of humility and compassion.

[anajmi]

I have clearly mentioned

And I have clearly responded to your posts. You are seeking clarification to my post to another author's post. Not to your "clearly" mentioned posts.

[israfild]

Dear Prof,

Re: Masoom:
I understand that the definition of a masoom is one that does no sin or mistake.
Our Imams (AS) are of the same Noor as that of Maula Ali (AS) and he (AS) is the same noor as that of Rasoolallah (AS). This noor has knowledge Taawil) of the Quran. This is the meaning of masoom.

Re: Role of Duats
I would beg to differ on this point. Dai is a Dai always and this does not drastically change what he is supposed to do.However, the responsibility of managing the spiritual system increases since the Imam (AS) is not publicly present.

It is well documented in some of our books of our Dai's that after the 21st Imam (AS) went into satr, he(AS) and the Imams(AS) that followed him(AS) were in contact with the then Dai's and guided them and taught them the functioning and running of the system.

If a person is Masoom (as per the definition above), he does not need to be taught as it is the same noor that is passed on. This is why i say that Dai's right from the 1st till now, are not masoom. I mean no dis-respect at all, i am just stating what i know as is.

[israfild]

israfild,

This is a question that I posted for you which got lost in the subsequent junk. Can you please comment?

israfild,
1.) That has no basis in the Quran or the Sunnah of the prophet. It is according to these sects only.
2.) Have you asked any unanswerable questions to these people and received answers?

====================================================================

Dear Anajmi,

Assalamualaikum

I was also waiting for the junk (you, sir, are one of the producers of the junk. Hope you choose your words more carefully next time) to get over. (Actually i was not in town and didnt have net access. My sincere apologies if i may have caused any distress)

Now back to the discussion:
1.) I have not said in the quote above or any of my quotes that i am refering to the Quran / Hadis for Sahib-Uz-Zamaan. If you read my post (i have quoted above), I have referred to the particular sects only no need for your to repeat without reason.

2.) As for your other question. Tell me one thing, have you really seen Allah? how do you know he exists and that Quran is the word of Allah? Why do you believe in Him. I am sure you will have lots of reasons to do so. Similarly, i have my reasons on believing that they do not have answers to all questions. Ii might not want to waste my time and money and energy over something i already know by reason.

[israfild]

My original post was in response to this

Unfortunately you have not read my posts properly. I have clearly mentioned that the Dai was appointed on instruction of the 2 years old father by Huratul-Malika and not by the 2 year old Imam. Going by that the above post makes sense. The Imam did establish the post of Dai before dying. But your post still does not make any sense. Because the 2 year old's father could not have set an example of a great leader since he died and the 2 year old was too small to become a great leader.

Now grow up a pair of balls and accept the fact that your post was nothing but a false allegation to insult the Imam for no reason what so ever. This should not be too much for someone who considers himself a true follower of Islam which was established by a prophet who was an ideal example of humility and compassion.

Dear Arif,

Assalamulaikum,

1.) At one point you say that the last Imam (AS) was a 2 year old boy and had no intelligence to establish the Dawat in which Bohras have faith, and in the very next statement you feel bad about an (imaginary) insult that i have done to the Imams (AS). I request you to please clarify your stand so that my arguments are more relevant.

2.) I say Imaginary because there is no reason for you to say that i have insulted any of the Imams (AS). You are just alleging me of something that i have never done and will never do. If you read my posts in context, i am sure you will find that i have utmost respect to all of the Imams (AS) and Dais (TUS) that we refer to.

3.) I think, the insult to the Imams (AS) is what your above post is doing. The reason i say this is as follows:

Shias (DBs, 12ers, Khojas etc) believe that the Imams (AS) were from the same Noor as that of Rasoolallah (SAW). This Noor has the knowledge of the Quran. Now, as per Allah, The Quran has all the knowledge till Qayamah, Therefore, the Imams (AS) also have all the knowledge that The Quran has.

Going by the above, the Imam, no matter what his age is, has the complete knowledge of The Quran. So, logically, this 2 year old boy (AS) has all the knowledge that a full grown up Imam has.

To discuss this any further, i will need to know what your stand is regarding the succession of Imams. Do you believe them to be the true successors after Rasoolallah (SAW) or not.

Let us make this a positive and constructive discussion rather than alleging without reason.

Awaiting your stand.