Bohra clergy should take note

[accountability]

On saturday I happen to see a young man from india, He came to me alongwith some one I knew. The young man was educated and articulate. Spoke good english, had come here sn an independent immigrant. He is trying to seek work in his own field.
We went to Tim Hortons for coffee. During the talking it was obvious that he was a die hard follower, very vigorous in his belief. I had immediately guessed as soon as I saw him from his appreance.

Discusssion revolved around his propspect of settling in canada, and the hurdles he is facing in it. Then it revlovled around our jamat, I was critical of so many people going Iraq, I said that in my opinion it was unuseful and unwarranted in this economic climate. He almost became furious, our common friend turned the subject around and we started discussing politics and all and sundry.

Our discussion turned to muslims in america and canada. I was surprised to see how rigid his thoughts were on such issues. His views were almost identical to those brainwashed taliban style fanatics.

I would ernestly urge our clergy to take stock of it. I know in their zeal to brainwash them for their own intrest and to make them into total submission, they are missing a point, it wont just stop there. Their rigid views will not remain so for just bohra faith but ultimatley translate into making these youth into neo relgiious, god forbid if this gets out of their hand we will be losing our children to fanatism and religious fascism.

[anajmi]

The bohra clergy's aim is at creating brainwashed cowards who can be threatened easily and not suicide bombing fanatics.

[Fatwa Banker]

Suicide bombing fanatics are not cowards ?

[anajmi]

Even a fart is a coward. Once in a while, try making a point. A suicide bombing fanatic cannot be easily threatened. Even a leader who sends others to die and kill so that corporations can profit is a coward. The list is a long one and you are too stupid to understand.

[mutmaeen]

bro acc

are nt u too rigid in ur views? anyone who is loyal to syedna is a brainwashed abde and those who arent are broadminded liberal with ultra modern outlook? and u include the most whabi literalists alongwith u just because they are anti syedna?
maybe those whom u call abdes are not open to ideas-but so arent u too-for u clutch at every straw which is anti syedna

[accountability]

I am not at all anti syedna. And I am not rigid but what I wrote was a fact, this is one thing that we should all ponder about. And I am anti wahabi, Anajmi has a habit of sabotaging the topic. I wrote this with all sincerity. I am of the opinion that our clergy should think about their methods. I also find that due to our relgious teachings, the change in appearance has caused many to loose the oppurtunities, that otherwise would be available to them.

First of all Growing beard is not an islamic neccesity. It is a sunnah not a fard. Even in sunnah the way to grow beard is not definitive. It may be long, may be short or medium sized. Even shaving is not prohibited at all. I want you to ask our jamia teachers, and get an answer. But do ask for refrences with answers.

[anajmi]

I am amazed how a one liner from anajmi is good enough to sabotage four paragraphs from accty. I guess I must be good.

[Al Zulfiqar]

accountability,

outwardly. most bohras are generally well-educated and quite articulate and aware of the world around them, or in short, quite street smart. but due to the systematic deprivation of an all round religious knowledge at the hands of our clergy, coupled with an ever increasing and relentless hammering of over-hyped status and false praise of syedna and the naked promotion of his family, (which is nothing short of brainwashing), bohras have become extremely narrow-minded and have practically no knowledge of islam overall and other muslim sects, leave aside other religions! they can be highly qualified doctors, engineers, scientists etc, but in matters of religion and even our own deen, its past history, practices or facts, they are abysmally ignorant, save for what they are 'told'. arguing with such people, or trying to convince them of an alternate view, even with hard facts or statistics is impossible.

even if you keep the quran in front of them and quote line, chapter and verse, they will ignore it and close their minds. its a pity that a religion which came to dispel ignorance, spread knowledge and destroy deeply entrenched but false, unjust, immoral and unethical practices, beliefs and traditions, is today in the grip of the same evils at the hands of unscrupulous people who are using precisely that same religion to enslave us. never before has our community been so shamelessly centred around only the single point agenda of dai and his family to the exclusion of everything else. this cult creation has nurtured in us a deep intolerace for anyone who differs from us. our outward friendliness towards others is a mask we wear and we have all become very cunning and clever dual personalities; zealots and fanatics in the masjids/markaz's, and then something else outside, attempting to balance our material and spiritual compulsions in the struggle to survive.

i have encountered many such young bohra men and have realised that they all suffer from tremendous ignorance of islam and our deen, its spirit, its philosophy and intent. if given an opportunity alone with them, i could attempt to explain many of their wrong thoughts and beliefs and i am convinced that they would listen, having the curious mind of youth, but alas, they are never provided that freedom in mind or body and are immediately hustled away and made to shut up.

[admirer]

are nt u too rigid in ur views

I totally agree with mutmaeen.

Acc,
You have generalised your view of the bohra community by meeting just one die hard follower.
There are many so called 'liberal' and 'educated' bohras in the western countries who have no regards for namaz, waaz or any affair for that matter. Then from a traditional point of view these are brainwashed by the western culture.

And your friend would be telling this to his friends about you!

[Fatwa Banker]

A suicide bombing fanatic cannot be easily threatened. .

How do you think you Wahabis recruit them Asswipe ?

[anajmi]

fart,

Changing tunes once again? Threaten them with what? 72 virgins?

[mutmaeen]

by the admission of some on the board bohras are generally well educated and most are affluent enough.the schools and universities they attend gives them an opportunity to interact with differing perceptions and ideas about religion and way of life.also they have access to any number of books and internet which is not a fiefdom of kothar.

despite all this if a million people or a majority of them want to be loyal to syedna then there has to be something positive that they find in their faith? vecause its not possible to fool a mass of educated affluent class of people who have access to all the information needed for the entirety of their life

bro acc

u voiced ur distaste about people visiting iraq-this hits at the core belief of shiasm who covet a trip to najaf and karbala to pay their respects to the saints they rever.all attempts in the past by such powerful monarchs as the abbasids and the ummaiyads could not stem the flow of shias to these shrines and no amount of mocking by any power on earth ever will stop the shias from their pilgrimage to these holy shrines.

[Biradar]

despite all this if a million people or a majority of them want to be loyal to syedna then there has to be something positive that they find in their faith? vecause its not possible to fool a mass of educated affluent class of people who have access to all the information needed for the entirety of their life

Mutmaeen,

Affluence and access to education and information do not necessarily mean the ability to think clearly and subject claims to rigorous scrutiny. Simply going to library is not enough. One needs to read the books too. I think this is the biggest problem with bohras. They think that having formal education and the ability to use the internet makes them smart. Unfortunately, the fact that they have been fooled by the kothar and the present leadership is a sign that all education and wealth has been wasted.

Bohras are very traditional, and specially those in and from the Indian subcontinent have the Oriental mentality which makes then yearn for a "maai-baap" sort of figure. They want someone to worship. Having set aside the stone idols of their ancestors they have erected a live flesh-and-blood one. Nothing in our history and culture warrants such fanatical and cult worship of the da'i. Making the da'i a "raab" and portraying his travel as "Kun" safar are a clear indication that he has now been elevated to divinity. Not even the prophet, Ali or imams have made this claim. However, the bohra da'i, who calls himself the "slave of the prophet's family" has simultaneously turned himself into god. That the bohras can not see this only shows the extreme and careful conditioning they are subject to. Do not be fooled by the extravagant lifestyle of the sayedna and his assorted sons, brothers, nephews and grandchildren. It is meant as a show to dazzle the common bohra into believing that the da'i is endowed with divinity.

Hence, all the education in the world is wasted on the bohras. It is better to be a ignorant fool: at least they know they know nothing. The bohras know nothing about their history and culture and yet are confident they know everything: a very dangerous combination.

[Al Zulfiqar]

by the admission of some on the board bohras are generally well educated and most are affluent enough.the schools and universities they attend gives them an opportunity to interact with differing perceptions and ideas about religion and way of life.also they have access to any number of books and internet which is not a fiefdom of kothar.

despite all this if a million people or a majority of them want to be loyal to syedna then there has to be something positive that they find in their faith? vecause its not possible to fool a mass of educated affluent class of people who have access to all the information needed for the entirety of their life

being affluent or having been to university and acquired a degree does not guarantee an enquiring and open mind. having access to the internet or the library but not actually using it to further one's knowledge or go beyond what is 'told' to you is self-defeating. the problem is bohras in general consider it a sacrilege to engage in research to check the veracity of the claims made by syedna or his family and army of amils day in and day out. whether it concerns matters of our deen, islam or the bogus achievements they keep touting. the cult which has been deliberately built up around the syedna and all the exhortations about him alone taking you to heaven and any na farmaani of him will lead you to being cast as a kafir or muddai and be hurled into hell, besides being denied entry to masjid/markaz etc, prevents any form of freedom of mind and spirit, and fosters blind dogmatic faith. if everyone with an access to computers and books was able to take the trouble to find out things and delve into its treasures, then we would not have so many immature jaahils in the world today.

hitler had 50 million well-educated germans convinced to wreak havoc on europe and engage in genocide, they saw in him too a dynamic leader and something which appealed to their sense of patriotism. if its the numbers game you want to play, we can keep on going at it until the cows come home. mahatma gandhi has famously said that all that truth requires to triumph is a majority of one.

[mutmaeen]

again there is a bias-you are presuming that a majority of dawoodi bohras cant think and analyse and everyone on the progressive side can

where faith is concerned everything cxannot be subject to analysis and rationale-one needs to draw a line somewhere or else its unending-one could argue as to the evidence for rasul e khuda travelling to seven heavens-his receiving wahye-he seeing light in the cave of hira etc etc but u dont question these thing and accept it as gospel truth as it is ur faith-some draw the line till rasulallah[saw] some til moula ali some till imam and some till the dais[varying from 47th till 52d]

[SBM]

vecause its not possible to fool a mass of educated affluent class of people who have access to all the information needed for the entirety of their life

If you had been reading the newspaper lately, the person responsible for attacking Spain and in London were college educated and coming from the good families. Osama Bin Laden and Al Zawaheri are both highly educated one is Engineer and other is a Surgeon. on the other hand Bill Gates did not even complete his college degree and as I understand neither did Dhirubhai Ambani.
Allah has given everyone to use their own brain unfortunately in our community of Bohras, majority understand that what is going on in Dawat is wrong but they have been intimidated and "IN THE NAME OF PEACE AT HOME" they rather submit then question.

[mutmaeen]

osama and al zawahiri maybe educated -only if they are can they motivate and manipulate-but if all were like them educated they wudnt get sufficient people to manipulate

its difficult to fool a million people who are generally well educated all the time

[Al Zulfiqar]

where faith is concerned everything cxannot be subject to analysis and rationale-one needs to draw a line somewhere or else its unending-

one usually arrives at faith, after having checked all the claims made for it. this is done by evaluating rationally and carefully, using one's intellect and common-sense. the quran in that respect challenges you to read, evaluate and check its credentials, compare it with other religious scripts, understand it and only then to accept. it does not encourage 'blind' faith, on the contrary it condemns it. in the eyes of Allah, one who accepted after working towards understanding His mission and digesting His message, is the only true believer.

once you have examined what is being propagated and arrived at the conclusion that yea, it indeed is the truth, then you start developing faith. only a fool, educated though he may be, accepts anything blindly. even the prophet was not accepted blindly, its only after a lifetime of his work, knowing his impeccable character, his integrity and the truth and wisdom of his message, that people started having faith in him and the quran. even those who believe in islam are still testing the quran today by conducting scientific enquiries to discover hidden facts and hitherto unknown mysteries.

if a million people have blind faith in the syedna, then more than a hundred million have blind faith in the sai baba, who has been exposed dozens of times for being a charlatan and jadoogar baba. yet the gullible believe and have blind faith in him! among his devotees are highly educated and famous people incl. ministers, film celebrities, industrialists and even prime ministers. are they all fools? yes, they are. just because you have faith in something or someone doesnt mean that it cannot be scrutinised and that it is a big sin to question it. in fact, faith based beliefs should be constantly challenged so that one can either strengthen one's faith and dispel one's doubts or realise that one's faith was misplaced. all you have to argue your case are numbers, no logic or rational arguments. as i have told you before, blind faith is the cause of most of the problems in the world today, as it leads to fanaticism, hatred, it closes minds and encourages cults like ours.

[SBM]

its difficult to fool a million people who are generally well educated all the time

Yes you can fool a million people Has happened in Barbri Masjid demolition, is happening in USA where Evangelical preachers are doing the same thing. Remember Jimmy Swaggert, John Haggee, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Benny and many other who had millions of followers and they were all considered middle class-educated. They were all fooled because of one thing Blind following and listening to brain washing sermons. BTW all the above preachers were found to have committed some kind of sins whether it was sexual in nature or money laundering and plundering other people"s money while having super star life style.

[Humsafar]

again there is a bias-you are presuming that a majority of dawoodi bohras cant think and analyse and everyone on the progressive side can

where faith is concerned everything cxannot be subject to analysis and rationale-one needs to draw a line somewhere or else its unending-one could argue as to the evidence for rasul e khuda travelling to seven heavens-his receiving wahye-he seeing light in the cave of hira etc etc but u dont question these thing and accept it as gospel truth as it is ur faith-some draw the line till rasulallah[saw] some til moula ali some till imam and some till the dais[varying from 47th till 52d]

Mutmaeen, I always thought you were more level-headed than the rest of the orthos, but I see that increasingly your judgement is being clouded by your latent loyalties to the system.

I agree that logic and rationality have no use in matters of faith and I also agree that one must draw a line. But the question is on what basis? You can't draw arbitrary lines as you please. Given the Ismaili-Mustalian-Tayyebi context there is not such thing as "faith in Dai". You have faith in the Shia theology and the Imam as its guide and exemplar. The Dai is the representative of the Imam, a functionary of the Dawat, and you can have faith in him as an able and competent leader. By the same token others may not have faith in his said abilities. Both positions are valid.

That one should even talk about having "faith in Dai" in the same breath as having faith in the Porphet and Ali shows how far the Bohras have drifted from their doctrinal moorings. Yes, you can draw the line at the level of the Prophet, Ali and the Imam. But Dai? That's really stretching it. If you want to defend the Sayedna and his system then that's fine - but please do not do so by distorting and perverting the tenets of faith. If you who is supposedly learned can be guilty of this then what can one say about common bohras. For them the Dai has become synonymous with religions or as Biradar said, divinity. And this is a tragedy. And it is tragic that people like yourself find it necessary to defend it.

[porus]

In Quran, intellect or reason trumps faith. 2:256 states that faith cannot be coerced but leaves a possibility of attaining to it by pondering over the verses of the Quran.

49:14 admonishes Arabs to refrain from calling themselves ‘Faithful’ rather than ‘Muslims’, because faith is a gift of grace from Allah to those Muslims who use their intellect.

The ‘puppy’ faith that was drummed into us in our childhood soon dissipates. If it has been replaced by ‘faith’ in anything other than Allah, including Dais, then you can be certain that it does not pass the test of the Quran. Until you are fully conscious of the Quran, you can be certain that faith has not entered your heart.

Second hand faith, the one I call ‘puppy’ faith, which was coerced into you during your infancy has no more merit than someone else’s ‘puppy’ faith in Krishna or Zeus. It is of no value no you nor to Allah. Allah knows who he has graced with faith.

One way to determine the strength of your faith in Allah is to subject your actions to Quranic criteria. For example, Bohras consider ‘sujood and qadambosi’ to the dai an act of faith. But this violates Quran 41:37, which prohibits sujood to any one other than Allah. As if to doubly emphasize this point, Quran asks for a sujood to be performed for Allah whenever this ayat is read.

Yet the dai wants ‘sujood and qadambosi’ for himself. If your ’faith’ in the Dai is stronger than your dedication to the Quran, then it would be better if you stopped calling yourselves Muslims altogether.

[accountability]

mutmaeen and others have raised some issues.

First let me take the myth of one million bohras. It is a flagrant lie. I can prove that bohras in number do not exceed 600 thousand. According to alvazarat computers the no of bohras in india are less than 400 thousand. In Pakistan the nos do not exceed 60000. Rest of world no is close to 95000. Total no of bohras world wide do not exceed 600000.

It is also a myth that bohras are by and large affluent and educated. The affluence we see is due to the over exhibitionist style adopted by present adminstration. Almost all wealthy people regardless of their character are made sheikh. it serves two purpose, one the collection goes up, second it touts an artificial image of wealth among community. Education is foremost victim of our present adminstration. it is time and again emphasised that do not go for formal education, and be a shopkeeper. Even in canada and us there are few doctors and accountants. I live in canada, by far only one person is adored by present mississauga amil for his wealth. I dont know how wealthy he is. Otherwise it is a community of survivors and middle class families.

[Al Zulfiqar]

if the total worldwide no. of bohras are say 600,000 and total no. of sheikhs are estimated to be around 2000+, then the proportion is atleast one milk shake per 300 bohras.

i believe that previously, say about 5-6 decades back, the proportion used to be probably one (real qualified) sheikh to about 1500 or so in the big cities and maybe none in the smaller towns and villages. that would make the worldwide proportion in those days closer to one sheikh to approx. 1800?

[mutmaeen]

brothers

if what is said about evaluating various available faiths and scriptures and then accepting one or the other-how many of us have done that? have we thoroughly evaluated bible quran geeta taurat etc before accepting islam? what we are is because of where and to whom we were born and then its a constant attempt to glorify and defend the faith and portray it to be supreme to everything else just because we were born into it.i dont exclude myself from this

as to the million bohras it was just a general statement and not meant to be a censusly accurate figure-in fact on one thread i myself wrote that one of the ejamaat co ordinators informed me that the total worldwide bohra populace does not exceed 500 000.u may argue for the sake of it but its pretty clear that there is above average affluance amongst the bohras and generally they are well educated

sai baba may have been supposedly exposed but its a fact that he is patronised by a million + people and no less than a person than sunil gavaskar attributes miracles to him.we may disagree but we can not mock and jeer

yes u have a right not to be loyal to a dai but then others have the same right in being loyal to him.you may point out the fallacies and imbalances in the system but u cannot mock and jeer at peoples faith and thats precisely the reason that thogh many a mainstream bohras have grouses they are loathe at the idea of openly taking the support of the progressives as the very core of their faith in shia ismaili mustali taiyebi doctrine is portrayed as a subject of mockery and poking fun

[Maqbool]

where faith is concerned everything cxannot be subject to analysis and rationale-one needs to draw a line somewhere or else its unending-one could argue as to the evidence for rasul e khuda travelling to seven heavens-his receiving wahye-he seeing light in the cave of hira etc etc but u dont question these thing and accept it as gospel truth as it is ur faith-some draw the line till rasulallah[saw] some til moula ali some till imam and some till the dais[varying from 47th till 52d]

Long back when the Babri Masjid episode was at its peek and many people were arguing about the Ramayana and Mahabharata as an only story and not real, The sangh pariwar was questioning about the authentication of meraj of Rasullulah (S.A.). One learned professor has explained this in one debate that The Prophet was not gone there physically and he has explained it in very fine logical and rational way the actual meaning of the incident. I do not remember what exactly he has said.

I here by request the learned persons on this board to explain this episode so that the fanatics are not carried away by wrong faith and believe that Prophet has physically gone to the haven in the age when there was no rockets where available.

[Al Zulfiqar]

taking the support of the progressives as the very core of their faith in shia ismaili mustali taiyebi doctrine is portrayed as a subject of mockery and poking fun

mutmaeen,

you need to be better informed about the goals of the reformists. please read on the home page of this forum, what their objectives are. all that they demand is democratic functioning of individual jamaats, financial transparency and accountability of the community's properties, restoring the jamaat properties to individual jamats so that they can manage and control their affairs without interference from mumbai, and non-interference of the priestly class in our personal lives. basically the demands are non-spiritual and non-religious. they have nothing to do with our deen. it is the syedna and his family who are linking matters of our legitimate human and democratic rights to religion by creating concocted stories and manipulating our religious beliefs.

please remember that 50 dais in the past have never interfered to the level that the last 2 have done to tighten their grip and increase their power and earning potential at the expense of the community. none of the reformists poke fun at the core beliefs of our community, viz. belief in a hidden imam or the neccessity of a dai as leader of our community. but what they do object to is when the dai starts acting as a tyrant, stifles all opposition, utters lanats on all he sees as his enemies for questioning his absolute power which was and never will be sanctioned by divine right as he makes it out to be, and declaring a social boycott against them. all these practices are new and unislamic, never ever done by the prophet or ali or his progeny.

what the progressives also object to is the imperial and lavish lifestyle of a dai and his family at our expense, they behave like kings and sultans and treat us as untouchables. this is totally unislamic and unacceptable behaviour from a religious and spiritual leader.

99% of the posts here are not from open reformists, many others of all shades of opinion and beliefs come here as this forum provides them a free and fearless platform to voice their thoughts, like you do. reformists cannot be held responsible if ordinary bohras come here and vent their spleen or ridicule the nonsense going in our community in the name of religion.

[Humsafar]

Good one, Zulfiqar.

[mutmaeen]

bro az

its true that the extremist fringe which mocks at the shia way of islam and the traditions of bohras may not be a part of reformists but how does one know? and if they arent reformists then they are doing a great disservice to the genuine cause of the reformists.the least that the reformists can do is disapprove such posts each time they pop up

[SBM]

.

the least that the reformists can do is disapprove such posts each time they pop up

Mutmaeen
I know this post was not meant form me but if you had noticed in the thread "Degradation of Bohra" by Br. Insaf, almost all the progressive Bohras did condemned that post and asked the Administration to remove the thread and that is exactly what was done
WHAT I LIKE TO SEE AS SAME KIND OF REACTION FROM KOTHRIS WHEN SUCH THING HAPPENS. No one is perfect including our Prophet (SAW) and even he was rebuked by Allah but I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANY ORTHOS OR ABDES DO THE SAME KNOWING FULL WELL THAT SOME OF THE ACTS OF KOTHARIS ARE OUTRIGHT UN-ISLAMIC AND DEMEANING.

[accountability]

mutmaeen wrote, "the least that the reformists can do is disapprove such posts each time they pop up"

Exactly, and we do that. You may be witness to a recent post, it was the progressive minded bohras who objected, and the beauty of openness and fairness is, that if a mistake is made and pointed out it gets corrected, on the other hand in a dictatorial theocratic administration such mistakes are let to bulgeoned.
I will give you an example, some years back, A jamia teacher was caught to have molested a teen aged girl in jamia Karachi, when it came to the knowledge of our clergy, he was let go no repudiation no punishment for his deeds. He is still in Jamia, would girls (specially young one) feel safe when he is around. On the other hand if you have a legitimate argument with amil or jamat or some one in royal family, a miserable fate will await you. If you would kindly let us know, by which fatmid mustaali dawoodi sharia, a rapist is let go without any consequences.

Dont you think it was a criminal offence not to report such event to appropriate authorities.