Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

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Al Zulfiqar
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Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#1

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:31 pm

today i got a completely different take on the maatam business. i was talking with a close childhood friend who has stayed for business reasons in iran for many years. he was the vice president of a huge multinational ad agency and was posted as the CEO of their iran operations.

he was telling me of his experiences while living there and how the mullahs there are very cleverly and deliberately using maatam as a form of mind control to subjugate the restive population and keeping them engaged in fiery and passionate forms of emotional outbursts against all those whom they see as a threat to their power in iran.

it is well known that all the leading ayatollahs in iran have stakes in private corporations (under assumed names, much like the benaami businesses of goondas and politicians in india) or big shares in 'buniyaad', the govt run holding which controls companies which dabble in everything from food to cars, to construction, real estate, trading, building materials, manufacturing etc. if any pvt syndicate comes into direct competition with any buniyad companies, the mullahs wreak vengeance upon them by undertaking a ruthless campaign against them during publicly televised sermons on important occasions - which are literally every other day, anniversary of this or commemoration of that - and whip up frenzy against that syndicate's products and brands and link them to the great shaitan USA or some EU country and declare that these goods are a sacrilege to the blood of the shohoda of kerbala or the iran-iraq wars etc. this excites the crowd no end and all their frustrations and pent up anger and irritation against their repressed lives and lack of liberty manifests itself in violent scenes of self-flagellation and maatam of the most extreme kind. this is a blatant form of sinister mind control and hypnosis for vested interests. Of course, this was only one example, but the mullahs there are exploiting these sentiments for the shohoda of kerbala for anything where it suits them, to counter often true news emanating against them for any other part of the world.

our syedna and his family and amils are doing the same and thus the frequent appeals to do maatam at every excuse and every event, 5 times a day after every farz namaaz, at every majlis, whether for a sad or happy occasion, incl. eids!! i fail to understand how our generally shrewd business minded community can be so gullible and naive as to not see through this patently cunning and cruel plan. Further proof of this mind control is self-evident when at the times when people are at the peak of their frenzy in beating themselves silly, they cleverly insert subliminal messages in praise of syedna, obedience to his every farmaan and of course subtle (or not so subtle) entreaties to give as much money as possible and earn sawab! The constant refrain that syedna is very happy to see you cry and do purjosh maatam and remember hussain etc is all designed to manipulate yr minds, brainwash you and keep you diverted from their evil and nefarious plans and behavior.

Keep in mind that the syedna is totally complicit in this plan and should be an eye opener to those who somehow believe that he is innocent and above reproach and should be loved and respected for all the (bullshit) words of love and affection he showers on us, dripping with honey and roses, but which is not backed up by any real action. All the cooked up and imaginary miracles to support his miraculous powers are deliberately spread to keep us hoodwinked and in line and they are always followed by frenzied maatam!

What more can one say except that the shohoda of kerbala are being mocked at and mis-used for the cruel and evil interests of this bunch of thugs?

porus
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Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#2

Unread post by porus » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:02 pm

"They've got us by the short and curlies. We have no choice but to agree".

This is a refrain by all of us who have given over our birth right to those who lord it over us. It does not matter who they are: Kothar, Iranian theocrats, or the leaders of the governments of the USA and the UK, who are owned by the corporate military-industrial complex. In another context, the following was posted on the internet. It is perfectly apposite to this thread
Wherever the Empire oozes forth, spreading its putrid decadence, there are always countless men without consciences, waiting to become part of the great desolation. (In the case of Bohras these are us and especially those who would buy titles). When confronted by this evil, so many men think that they will somehow fare better by serving this beast than by opposing it. The monsters know this, and know how to recognize which men and women can be swayed with bribery or threats and which ones will not submit to the yoke for any reason. Their work is organized like a symphony, hitting the high notes here, slamming the low notes over there. The point is, they know how to play us like we were merely instruments. Our task in the resistance must be to recognize this and learn to recognize the sheep’s mind within ourselves. Once we learn to recognize it within, we can apply that knowledge to the people we meet, or hope to influence, learning to recognize which one is open to reason and which one is a closed mind. Their intent to control the world is based on their ability to control and manipulate minds. We must develop similar capabilities, if we are to be effective. Changing human nature is the name of the game. We must teach the sheep to think like wolves.

Resistance is the only answer.
Go here. And watch the associated video.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e24272.htm

mumin
Posts: 398
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#3

Unread post by mumin » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:51 pm

another big scandal is asking money to send people to karbala, haj etc. and to get the maximum amount from the mumin they ask in the form of $700 unit. The mumin does not even know who is being sent for ziarat. the maximum amount to send one person to kerbala from india would be about a $1000.00 but huge amounts are collected but the person being sent is told that he is being sent to karbala by his dai. but money for this purpose is actually collected from the mumineen.

Al Zulfiqar
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Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#4

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:12 pm

my request to brothers is to keep this thread on its right track of maatam being used for mentally manipulating us, and not to bring in extraneous issues, please...

Haggi
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#5

Unread post by Haggi » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:53 pm

To you all, especially Porus and S. Insaf bhai,
Just like many on this board, I have just endured the ritual of Muharram and Maatam in the confides of the mainstream Dawoodis.
Lucky for me I was able to be miss the the first 9 days but had to show up on the day of Ashura just to please the better half. That is the day most
non-participating Bohris also show up to connect with their estranged brethren to commemorate the Shahadat which has been encoded in them
from a previous life living in the maholla type conditions wherever they have been brought up. Needless to say this year was no different, same old
vaez with screaming now getting louder( Azha dara na Hussein, Ahhhhhhhhh ! and hoshiyar !) and maatam every 2 minute that there is no substance
in the bayaan itself.
Coming to the main point, it is very obvious that Maatam is surely being used as a tool to control your mind and to mould you into becoming an imbecile
of their own design and exploit you in the process. Alas, to say that they have been quite successful.
What I would like know from all you knowledgeables when did this ritual of Muharram and Maatam actually start or originate. I have read many historical
books on early Ismailism but have yet to read any mention of the commemoration of Ashura begining the first ten days of Muharram and also subsequently
the ritual Of Maatam. Actually the Imams and Dais of the early period in North Africa were very critical of loud mourning practised by Sunnis of probably
Maliki and Hanafi madhabs when they they took control in Afrikiya at the advent of the Fatimid caliphate there.
Correct me if I err, but I suspect that this ritual may have been introduced post fatimid period from a non Arabic Shias influence mainly from Persia
and nearby Iraq. Your contributions on this subject is welcome.

questions
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#6

Unread post by questions » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:18 pm

Al Zulfiqar is right. It IS sublimal, and very effective. I am sure you will have heard in the bohri bayan that Bibi Zainab (AS) did SAJDA to Hussain (AS)! Again, I say, repeat your lies often, make them as propesterous as you can, and people WILL believe.

And we are told that the Bohra bayan is authentic, dont listen to Shia majalis as they embellish events to make people cry. Sajda to anyone but Allah by the Ahle Bayt? I dont think so.That shirk is purely for us poor slaves. We are in such a hurry to finish off Muharram, we have stopped having soyem on the right day, so that the Ziyafat party can begin after the Muharram tamasha. What a mockery of Muharram. Is it any wonder why our children dont want to come to the jamatkhana. Shame on all of us.

like_minded
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#7

Unread post by like_minded » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:07 am

I fully agree with bro al zulfikar

My fundamental question is... What does the tragedy in kerbala which happened 1400 years plus years ago got to do with our present lives???? It was a part of history and nothing more, I also do not agree that we have a lot to learn from it .. so, let's stop pretending and move on.... because if we had anything to learn, we'd have already learnt.

like_minded
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#8

Unread post by like_minded » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:41 am

The very fact that today we beat ourselves silly calling it mourning is enough to prove that we've learnt nothing, besides this incident in history has become a tool in the hands of clergymen who exploit and excite us endlessly for their monetary gains and control over the minds of stupid followers.

Imam Hussain dint lay down his life to teach people the importance of courage and conviction, He did what he thought right at that time.

If we START searching, we'll find the same qualities in us which Imam hussain had, the problem is we are too lazy and above all shit scared to do that, let's admit it!!

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#9

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:41 pm

An article downloaded from the net, which is relevant to the subject:-

"He who cries or tries to cry for Al-Hussain, Heaven becomes obligatory for him" This is a statement which is found in the books of narrations and is attributed to the Imaams.The Boyheys, who ruled Iran and Iraq in the name of protecting the khilafah of Banu-Al-Abbas, played a vital role in strengthening the tradition of celebrating the day of 'Ashura'.

However, celebrating the day of 'Ashura' became a general tradition and a part of the Shi'ites existence during the time of Shah Ismail Al-Safawi. He forced Iran in to Shi'aism and created in it a denominational unity to squench the desires of the neighboring Ottoman KHILAFAH. In the Safawi palace, every year the first ten days of Muharram used to be declared as days of mourning and the Shah used to receive the mourners on the day of 'Ashura'. On that day a special celebration used to be held in the royal palace. Many people used to gather for those celebrations, and the Shah himself use to attend them also, Shah Abbas Al-Safawi, whose rule lasted for fifty years and who was the shrewdest most powerful and most cruel of the Safawi Shahs, used to wear black on the day of 'Ashura' and put mud on his face as a sign of mourning for Al-Hussain. He used to lead the marchers in the streets, But We do not know for sure when the tradition of striking the shoulders with chains on the day of 'Ashura' came into existence. This tradition spread into Shi'ites areas such as Iran and Iraq, and other region as well.

However, there is no doubt that striking the heads with swords and causing blood to gush out as an act of mourning for Al-Hussain on the day of 'Ashura' came to Iran and Iraq from India during the British occupation of those countries. The British exploited the ignorance, simplicity and the great love the Shi'ites had for Al-Hussain. They even taught them to hit their heads with sharp objects. Until very recently, the British embassies in both Tehran and Baghdad used to finance the demonstrations for Al-Hussain. This demonstration portrayed an ugly image in the streets and neighborhoods. The purpose behind the British colonial policies in their support for this ugly tradition, which has been grossly exploited by them, was to provide an acceptable justification to the British people to counteract the opposition by some independent newspapers and by some countries against the British occupation of India. The people of these countries were made to appear as savages who needed a civilizing force like the British to teach them human values and liberate them from ignorance and savagery.

British and European newspapers used to publish pictures of the demonstrators marching in the streets on the day of 'Ashura' with thousands of people hitting their shoulders with chains until they bled, and striking their heads with swords and other sharp objects until blood gushed out. The policy makers of the colonial powers used to use these pictures to justify the colonization of these countries under the pretext of wanting to educate the people of these countries and bring them toward civilization and progress, as dictated by their feelings of moral obligation towards their fellow human beings.

It is said that once Yasin Al-Hashmi, the Prime Minister of Iraq during the British occupation of that country, visited London to negotiate with the British to end their occupation of his country. The British said to him :"We are in Iraq to help the Iraqi people achieve happiness and give up savagery." This statement caused the Prime Minister to become angry and he left the room where they were holding the negotiations. The British politely apologized to him and respectfully asked him to see a documentary film about Iraq. When he watched the film, it turned out to be a film of the demonstration held on the day of 'Ashura' in the streets of Al-Najaf, Karbala and Al-Kazimiyah. The film was full of horrible and sickening scenes which included striking the bodies with chains. The British, by showing that film to the Prime Minister were asking him whether a cultured nation even with degree of civilization would do this to itself. This article is taken from a scholar of Iran Imam Dr. Musa Musawi.

Here I want to mention something amusing, yet full of wisdom and bright ideas. I heard it from one of the Shi'ite scholars and religious leader about thirty years ago, This elderly and respected man was standing beside me, The day was the tenth of Muharram and the time was noon and the place was the Rawdah of Imam Al-Hussain in Karbala. Then a demonstration of those who strike their heads with Swords and Causes blood to gush out of their heads as a sign of grief and mourning for the death of Al-Hussain entered in great numbers to the grave site of Al- Hussain. Their blood flowing down their foreheads and the sides of their bodies in a sickening way caused one's body to shiver. Then another large group of people who were hitting their backs with chains until they bled, That is when the old man, an independent scholar asked me "what is the matter with these people who have inflicted this disaster and pain on themselves?" I said : "you have asked this question as if you are not listening to what they are saying, which is, 'O Hussain,' expressing their grief for him. Then he asked again: Isn't Al-Hussain now 'firmly established in the favor of a Mighty King.' I said yes. Then he asked me again: Is not Al-Hussain now at this moment in a 'garden whereof the breadth is as the breadth of the heavens and the earth, which is the reward for those who ward off evil'? I said yes. Then he asked: Aren't there in paradise 'fair ones with wide, lovely eyes, like unto hidden pearls'? I said yes. Then he took a deep breath and said in a forceful way with pain and sadness: Woe to them, stupid, ignorant, for what they do to themselves, for an imam who is now in the 'gardens of delights, there wait on them immortal youths with bowls and a cup from a pure spring.'

In the year 1352 A.H., when the leading scholar of the Shi'ites of Syria, Hassan Al-Amin Al-Ameli, declared such acts to be forbidden, which was an unmatched demonstration of courage on his part in stating his opinion and by asking the Shiites to stop these practices, he was faced with strong opposition from within the ranks of the Shi'ia scholars, religious leaders and those who followed them, the kind of people described by Imam Ali (R) as "rag-tag and bobtailed." This step of the reform almost failed had it not been adopted by our grandfather Abu-Al-Hassan, who was the supreme leader of the Shi'ite denomination. Abu-Al-Hassan had the same view as Al-Amin, and he declared his full support for him and his ruling concerning that issue. The stand taken by our grandfather gave great strength to the reform movement of Al-Amin. Even though many of the Fuqaha and Mujtahedeen opposed Abu-Al-Hassan was able to defeat all who opposed him due to his great status and perseverance. The public started to listen to the ruling of the great leader concerning religious matters, and their accustomed practice during the day of 'Ashura' started to diminish little by little and began to disappear from the Shi'ites' lives.

However, these practices did not completely vanish and weak traces of them remained until the death of our grandfather in the year 1365 A.H. (may Allah's Mercy be upon him). After his death, the new Shi'ia authorities started to urge people to practice these traditions again. These traditions made a comeback in the Shi'ite world; however, they did not reappear to the same level as in the era prior to 1352 A.H. After the Islamic republic was declared in Iran and the concept of Walaayet Al-Faqeeh became the basic of power, orders were given to revive those traditions as part of the policies of the Shi'ite denomination. Furthermore, the young Islamic republic began helping the Shi'ite groups in all parts of earth, both financially and spiritually. It urged them to revive this invention which was brought into the Shi'ite Muslim world about 200 years ago by the policies of the colonizing British, in order to give Islaam and Muslims the worst image and to justify their occupation of the Muslim countries, as we mentioned earlier. As I am writing these lines, the cities of Iran, Pakistan, India and Lebanon unfortunately witness on the tenth of Muharram every year a processing of people marching in their streets in the image we drew. Before the end of that day, many pictures of that human savagery and terrifying foolishness are shown on the T.V. screens in both the east and the west to give strength to the enemies of Islam and to those who wish ill towards Islam and Muslims. Therefore, We must enrich ourselves in memory of Al-Hussain rather than destroying ourselves. we must give to Al-Hussain his respected place in the arena of struggle instead of tarnishing and defaming status. We must do this if we are truly among the supporters of Al-Hussain and those who Love him.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#10

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:56 pm

perhaps scholars on bohra history can corroborate this, but my father always maintained (having heard this from his grandfather, which would mean going back almost 150 years) that upto the 46th dai, it was the practice among bohra majlises during moharram to do silent maatam with great restraint and dignity. people cried and sobbed, but there was no rhythmic beating of chests with highly exaggerated flailing of arms and gesticulating wildly while yelling and jumping up and down, forming circles, disrobing the upper torso and using chains and knives to bleed and becoming unconscious with grief etc.

this type of behaviour was considered the mark of jaahils and a disrespect to the memory of the shohoda, as the outward show became more important than the inner intent. we were considered above such uncivilised and barbaric conduct and this attitude of bohras was prevalent among all the other practical spheres of our lives also.

it is the custom among certain tribes in the sub-continent to rent 'rudaali's', a peculiar form of mourning at funerals where hired people, women and men whose professional job it is to come and cry loudly and mourn, beat their heads and chests and express extreme grief at cemeteries and ghats where funeral pyres are lit. the more the number of such hired mourners you could rent, the higher your status in society. perhaps this also spared the family members of the deceased the physical exhaustion from grief. what our clergy has done is to reduce us to the status of such 'rudaali's', a despised class looked down upon as dirty and disgusting by the upper classes of brahmins, inspite of the need they fulfilled.

as i have stated at the beginning of this thread, it becomes all the more self-evident, that due to the controversies surrounding the succession or 'nass' of the 47th dai at that time, a deliberate attempt has been made to divert attention from it and get the entire community to hammer themselves silly. of course, the last 2 dai's have only vastly added to this practice to keep the unsatisfied and disgruntled community at bay and under severe mind control.

Haggi
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#11

Unread post by Haggi » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:09 am

Thank you,GM for the info. which confirms what I suspected that the origin of this Maatam / muharram tradition has Safawi origins.
After digesting this info. I need to ask further questions if you or any other knowledgeable can oblige.
1. What is the time frame the existence of Shah Ismail Al-Safawi ?
2. The Safawi's were obviously practising Ithnashari version of Shiasism which conflicted with Ismailism in some areas, so when, where and how did the Bohras/ Mustalians/ Tayebis were influencedby these practises ?
3. What about early Ismaili / Fatimid era ie. in Ifrikiya and Fustat (Egypt) is there any mention of the practise of these traditions in any literature.
4. Lastly, I would like to comment on the theory that injuring yourself with sharp objects is a practise exported from India to the Middle East. I would like to differ with you on this.
Shiasm was imported into India and not the other way round, therefore this tradition must have been influenced from Iran and may be re-introduced back to the ME during the British
Occupancy of these areas. I have reservation that The Brits. understood any of this but may have encouraged it as long it keeps the populace occupied with their religious fervour and
draw a line between Shias and Sunnis.
Your inputs are appreciated.
Haggi

porus
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#12

Unread post by porus » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:19 am

The theory that maatam was ‘invented’ by the British to discredit Muslims does not ring true. However, it seems likely that Safavids encouraged it as a display of the loyalty of their subjects against their traditional Arab rivals.

Maatam, as an expression of spontaneous grief, first occurred among the Ladies of the Ahl-e-bayt on the day of martyrdom of Husain. Imam Zain al-Abideen joined them in expressing the grief. Beating parts of body like cheeks, breasts or thighs during grief was a common custom amongst Arabs and there is a hadith regarding Prophet himself beating his thighs in grief.

During the 200 years following the death of the Prophet, before the Shia identity had completely solidified, there was much jockeying for political power amongst various groups of Muslims. One manner in which groups shape a unique identity is through rituals. Re-enacting Zainab’s and Zain al-Abideen’s laments lent themselves as a fodder for a unique ritual and the leaders of the nascent Shia community took advantage of this episode to fashion this maatam ritual. Its primary purpose was to focus the group’s attention towards wresting political power for their leaders from their rivals.

It so happened that the power was won by ahle-hadith, a rival to the Shia. Ahle-hadith were able to rule the majority of Muslims, who by default, accepted the ruling elites’ bias and became ahle-hadith or, as we now know them, Sunnis. People forget that this was purely a political victory and they think that because this group is in the majority, it is true Islam. Nothing is further from truth. Originally, both Ahle-hadith and the Shia were equal in numbers. Majority of either are not thinkers, they are followers.

The Shia group split into Ithna-asharis and Ismailies. Ithna-asharis remained in political doldrums in the hostile Sunni Abbasid environment and their leaders used Maatam as a counterbalance to the Sunnis with the ultimate aim to secure power for the family of the Prophet. Ithna-asharis are still engaged in this power play.

Ismailies, on the other hand, were successful in establishing an empire in North Africa, the Fatimid dynasty. Thus the use of the ritual of maatam declined as a political tool to overthrow rival dynasties like the Abbasids. Fatimids were too busy consolidating their own empire. Thus, maatam lost its force during the Fatimid period.

Thus, amongst Ismailies, Bohras and Khojas, maatam did not have the same intensity as amongst the Ithna-asharis. Maatam was re-introduced amongst Bohras because of their closeness to Ithna-asharis in India. While Ithna-asharis had a clear focus to regain power for the family of the Prophet, Bohras have no such purpose. Their maatam is simply a ploy that the ruling class uses for their own purpose. This is, as others have rightly pointed out, to keep Bohras in subjugation.

Bohras have disgracefully turned maatam into Ibaadat. This has no sanction from Quran or from Imams. We know that at least one Dai has sought to ban the practice altogether.

Immediate expression of grief when a calamity befalls is understandable. But to create a ritual drama with steady and gradual increase in violence of self-flagellation for an ancient calamitous event has no place in a civilized society. Continuous output of marsiyas, breast beating, etc with no objective to plan for recovering the power, is a tool of subjugation; a tool for retaining power by Kothar over Bohras. Bohras should wake up and stop it, one person at a time.

anajmi
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#13

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:20 am

People forget that this was purely a political victory and they think that because this group is in the majority, it is true Islam. Nothing is further from truth.
Correct. Numbers has nothing to do with whether you are right or wrong. Simply because the Sunnis are greater in number doesn't mean that they follow the correct Islam and simply because the Shias are a minority doesn't mean that they follow the correct Islam. Those who follow the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet are the ones who follow the correct Islam. Bohras give an example of how Imam Hussain's numbers were in a minority and Yazid's numbers were in the majority and hence, since bohras are in a minority, they are correct. We have seen as porus mentioned above, that nothing could be further from the truth.

porus
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Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#14

Unread post by porus » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:34 am

This post is deleted.
Last edited by porus on Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

porus
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Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#15

Unread post by porus » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:35 am

Admin,

I ask that anajmi's post in this thread is deleted. It has no bearing on the subject under discussion which is maatam. Useful discussion on every thread is destroyed by anjami's attempt to convert them into a Shia-Sunni quarrel with his ignorant postings. Ozmujahid complained about this on another thread.

We need not get, yet again, into what constitutes the "correct" Islam. What Sunna is and is not will always remain a matter of dispute amongst Muslims.

mass
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:21 am

Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#16

Unread post by mass » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:55 am

Hitting one's body in grief

Mourning rituals and self harm as found in the Qur'an

Mourning and shedding blood is the Sunnah of Prophet Adam (as)

Mourning and hitting one self is the Sunnah of the Prophet (s)

Thigh beating is the Sunnah of Maula Ali (as)

Thigh beating is the Sunnah of Sahaba

Proof of head beating from the Qur'an

Beating oneself at a time of distress is the Sunnah of Prophet Adam (as)

Hitting one's head in times of trouble is the Sunnah of Prophet Yusuf (as)

Beating oneself in times of trouble is the Sunnah of Umar

Beating and mourning by the wives of the Sahaba

Beating and mourning by the wives of the Prophet (s)

Beating and mourning by Uthman's wives and daughter

The mourning of Fatima al-Zahra (as)

The mourning of Abu Hurraira

The mourning of Bilal (ra)

The extreme mourning of Uways al-Qarni (ra)

Mourning following the death of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal

Heavens mourning at the death of Umar!

Seven days of mourning of Khalid bin Waleed

An Arabs mourning before the Prophet (s)

Mourning at the time of Ayesha's death

Imam Jafer (as) allowed the mourning of Imam Husayn (as)

Sayyida Zaynab (as) beat herself on three separate occasions

The skies shed blood in grief of Imam Husayn (as)

Examples of self-beating in the Bible

http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/ ... /chap9.php

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#17

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:51 am

the practice of self-inflicted violence, either on an individual basis spurred on by psychological aberrations, or indulged in en masse' and encouraged by the state or religious leaders, is nothing new. there are detailed studies showing its physical and mental effects on society and the purposes for which they have been cunningly used over centuries.

here is a compilation of material from various sources, although many comments/observations are mine. before i post it here, it will be pertinent to discuss the reply of sister mass on public and pvt expressions of grief from islamic history. the significant difference here is that the incidents she has posted relate to 'incidental' grief, i.e. for the moment and temporary, as opposed to ritualistic, annual and institutionalised displays of grief en masse', which are generally political in nature and are sinister tools exploited by the state and religion to manipulate the minds of people.

Those who engage in self-harm face the contradictory reality of harming themselves whilst at the same time obtaining relief from this act. It may even be hard for some to actually initiate cutting, but they often do because they know the relief that will follow. For some self-harmers this relief is primarily psychological whilst for others this feeling of relief comes from the beta endorphins released in the brain. Endorphins are endogenous opioids that are released in response to physical injury, act as natural painkillers, and induce pleasant feelings and would act to reduce tension and emotional distress. Many self-harmers report feeling very little to no pain while self-harming and, for some, deliberate self-harm may become a means of seeking pleasure.

Alternatively, self-harm may be a means of feeling something, even if the sensation is unpleasant and painful. Those who self-harm sometimes describe feelings of emptiness or numbness (anhedonia), and physical pain may be a relief from these feelings. "A person may be detached from himself or herself, detached from life, numb and unfeeling. They may then recognise the need to function more, or have a desire to feel real again, and a decision is made to create sensation and 'wake up'."

As a coping mechanism, self-harm can become psychologically addictive because, to the self-harmer, it works; it enables him/her to deal with intense stress in the current moment. The patterns sometimes created by it, such as specific time intervals between acts of self-harm, can also create a behavioural pattern that can result in a wanting or craving to fulfill thoughts of self-harm.

The perspective of Western cultures is not favorable toward self-injury. However, the perspective of other cultures differs. Some cultures use self-injury as a form of identification for family or tribal units, whereas others use self-induced scars as a sign of adulthood, a symbol of beauty, or a rite of passage (Kehrberg, 1997). Self-injury behavior first appeared in clinical literature in 1913 (Shaw, 2002). Historically, the significance of blood as a method of payment for or forgiveness of wrongdoing (sin) is recorded extensively throughout biblical and extra-biblical literature. In the fifth century B.C., Herodotus in his Book 6 of History described a Spartan leader who cut himself with a knife. Hippocrates in 300 B.C. developed a theory that people could be rebalanced through bloodletting, blistering, vomiting, and so forth to cleanse the body (Clark & Henslin, 2007).

During the first century A.D., Christian clergy and laity practiced self-flagellation. Early Church martyrs, such as the Desert Fathers, promoted penance through self-flagellation with small leather whips (Favazza, 1996). In the 13th century, the religious orders renewed this practice, which spread and continued into the next century, especially in response to the bubonic plague because followers believed the plague called for penance (Favazza, 1996; Levenkron, 1998). Favazza reports that this continues today, “particularly during the Lenten season prior to Easter, in areas such as the Philippines, Mexico, and some parts of the United States” (p. 40).

Self-injury for religious reasons is not unique to Christianity. The Abidji tribe on the Ivory Coast cut their abdomens with knives while entranced to celebrate the New Year festival, believing this will assuage guilt and anxiety and bring about healing for the entire tribe. Many shamans practice self-sacrifice to promote healing of self and others (Favazza, 1996; Strong, 1998). According to Hinduism, suffering and sacrifice are intended to help one identify with the cycles of creation and destruction and maintain control over these cycles. The followers of Shia Islam practice self-flagellation and self-infliction of wounds. Another Islamic sect, the Sufic brotherhood Hamadsha, conducts healing rituals in which they seek union with God by slashing their heads, eating spiny cactus, and drinking boiling water. Suffering is a way of penance for these followers and, according to their beliefs, perhaps even the path to salvation (Favazza, 1996).

Now in a Manchester courtroom a Shia Muslim has been found guilty of child cruelty because he made two teenage boys take part in a self-flagellation ritual using a whip made of knife blades. Syed Mustafa Zaidi's defence was that this is a traditional ceremony commemorating the death of Hussein, Muhammad's grandson, at the massacre of Karbala in AD 680.

On the day of Ashura some devotees whip their own backs with bunched knives known as zanjirs; others beat their chests rhythmically with their hands. Sunni Muslims and some Shia condemn the ritual as barbaric. But it would be a mistake to think it exceptional in religion generally. Christianity and Hinduism can offer examples that make zanjir self-flagellation look like a haircut. In the Hindu festival of Thaipusam a ritual known as kavadi is performed. It ranges from carrying heavy weights uphill to piercing the body, face and tongue with skewers, or dangling from meat hooks passed through the back and legs. “The greater the pain,” one text says, “the greater the god-earned merit.”
In the festival for the goddess Draupadi, believers walk on red-hot coals as an act of devotion or penance. Descriptions claim that devotees feel nothing, having entered a trance-like state; which would seem somewhat to reduce both the devotional and penitential value.

The overall conclusion that one can derive is that the practice or deliberate encouragement and provocation of self-flagellation is nothing but torture in one of its various forms. By associating it either with masochism - a display of male virility, or linking it with appeasement and placation of a supreme being and thus earning spiritual salvation, is a political strategy to enhance power, to erode the subjects, to humiliate, to create dependence, to intimidate, to restrain, to control, to paralyse.

All religions have in the past carried out extreme forms of torture for these express purposes. In fact, it is widely believed that human sacrifice preceded animal offerings to buy salvation and appease the gods. Thus the story of Abraham willing to sacrifice his son Ismail, who was then substituted by a sheep at the last minute.

In the case of the bohras, they are being cruelly and very cleverly manipulated to believe that regular and ritualistic self-torture of themselves (for which the kerbala incident has become a convenient handle to exploit, and if that did not exist, something else equally expedient would have been found) will bring them the khushi of maula and Allah and they are therefore encouraged to engage in more and more inflictment of self-violence.

Any sane person should be asking this logical question, Would Allah who is an all loving, benevolent being who wishes for our well-being, derive his own happiness from seeing us inflicting pain upon ourselves? Can that make any religious sense?

If the British courts eventually convicted Zaidi for inflicting cruelty on his sons, setting aside his defense of religious beliefs as it did not involve informed acquiescence of his sons who are minors , would any bohra/s have the daring to file suit against syedna for being an instigator of sado-masochistic torture as a form of enslavement??

anajmi
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#18

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:31 pm

porus,

I am simply responding to a portion of your post.
It so happened that the power was won by ahle-hadith, a rival to the Shia. Ahle-hadith were able to rule the majority of Muslims, who by default, accepted the ruling elites’ bias and became ahle-hadith or, as we now know them, Sunnis. People forget that this was purely a political victory and they think that because this group is in the majority, it is true Islam. Nothing is further from truth. Originally, both Ahle-hadith and the Shia were equal in numbers. Majority of either are not thinkers, they are followers.
If the Admin were to be fair, then your post needs to be deleted first as you started the shia sunni "quarrel". If you had just stuck to maatam, I wouldn't have had to post.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#19

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:08 pm

admin,

it is high time that moderation of this forum is increased to prevent each and every thread on this forum degenerating into endless shia-sunni debates and getting off track. please delete any and all such posts which derail the original focus of any thread. this constant bickering is putting off many people from visiting this site and making meaningful contributions.

Biradar
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#20

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:13 pm

Al Zulfiqar wrote:admin,

it is high time that moderation of this forum is increased to prevent each and every thread on this forum degenerating into endless shia-sunni debates and getting off track. please delete any and all such posts which derail the original focus of any thread. this constant bickering is putting off many people from visiting this site and making meaningful contributions.
I do not think that such posts should be deleted. There is no need to police this forum too much. We should not create the same chains as on other Bohra forums. First, it is not always obvious if a post is relevant or not and the Admin need not waste their time deciding this. Second, everyone can see who is contributing meaningfully and who is not. Everyone knows who the fools on this forum are. One just needs to read their posts. Ignoring them and not getting baited into an argument with them is the best solution.

More importantly, the people who do wish to contribute should be civil and not get caught in useless arguments. I think the examples of porus and Humsafar should be followed. They think before they write and are generally never abusive.

anajmi
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#21

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:05 pm

It is amazing to see how such educated folks can behave like complete illiterates. To avoid talking about shias and sunnis while talking about bohra issues is like avoiding rice while cooking biryani. I know, stupid analogy, but that is the level of sense prevailing amongst you people.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#22

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:18 pm

biradar,

neither i nor anyone else is asking for censorship of the type imposed in bohra fanatic sites. what is required however is to moderate threads so that they do not get diverted everytime into senseless shia-sunni debates ad nauseum.

you have not been around here long enough to know that this issue has been discussed here since forever and for it to intrude into any and every topic is not only rude behaviour but inconsiderate of others.

no forum can exist meaningfully without atleast some form of control to moderate topics and decency in language. would you like this site to degenerate into a free for all? about a year back admin had vowed to bring some semblance of discipline here and banned several members who had progressively descended into abuse and vulgar slanging matches and hurling brickbats and stones at every opportunity to prove their point on every thread. then it was shia-sunni-ismaili khoja - a triangular war, until everyone was fed up with the nonsense and many regular members stopped contributing here in protest.

it is not enough knowing who the fools are, these fools need also to be reminded that there is a limit to everything.

Biradar
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#23

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:03 am

Al Zulfiqar wrote:biradar,

you have not been around here long enough to know that this issue has been discussed here since forever and for it to intrude into any and every topic is not only rude behaviour but inconsiderate of others.
I have been on this forum for a very long time, probably for seven or more years. In fact, I have seen the forum undergo several major changes over the years. Remember, user-names change.

Yes, I know this issue has been discussed ad-nauseum, however I have always advised against any sort of censorship. It is important to let people vent and it is nearly impossible to keep a discussion on track. I also agree that reducing every discussion to Sunni-Shia argument is not constructive. In fact, it is a complete waste of time as there is almost no chance that the arguments can ever be resolved. After all, 1400+ years have passed and no resolution is yet in sight.

I suggest that one ignore the disruptive people and continue the constructive discussions among the interested parties. Disruptive people are, by definition, rude, inconsiderate and too smug. Whatever the Admin does they will come back. It is like a hydra-headed monster: you can censor them, reason with them or even ban them. Yet, they will keep coming back, again and again. Best solution is to simply ignore them.

anajmi
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#24

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:17 am

Aw stop crying like a bunch of sissies. Instead of wasting so much disk space on discussing about someone you should be ignoring, you should be discussing something that you've been discussing for decades. But wait, isn't that what you guys are objecting to? Discussing something that has been discussed for so long? What have you been discussing since time immemorial Al Zulfikar? Every post of yours is like a random cut and paste from the previous three posts. So stop bickering like a bunch of kids. Grow up and grow a pair.

anajmi
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#25

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:21 am

it is nearly impossible to keep a discussion on track.
This wouldn't be that difficult if people like you stayed long enough for a discussion and not ran at the first sign of opposition.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#26

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:52 am

Biradar wrote:
Yes, I know this issue has been discussed ad-nauseum, however I have always advised against any sort of censorship. .
biradar,

perhaps you should address this to porus, who was the one who asked for deletion of certain posts in the first place.

admin,

your silence is eloquent??

porus
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#27

Unread post by porus » Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:58 am

Al Zulfiqar,

I was impressed by your earlier post where you brought global and psychological perspective to self-flagellation. I particularly liked the analogy between it and the deliberate mental manipulation of stress-relief cycles. This is very much like drug addiction. Once hooked, you automatically stress up and seek relief by more drugs.

In this post I want to address the reason why I asked anajmi’s post to be deleted. More than anyone else on this board, I have sparred, some times with intensity, with anajmi on many issues. I know where he comes from. His fundamental stance is that Shiaism is based on lies and must be attacked at every opportunity. In this regard, he will pick out any sentence from anyone’s post which gives him ammunition to disparage the faith of the Shia and, of Bohras, n particular.

Recently, his admiration for Zakir Naik, who is an admirer of Yazid and Muawiyah, and who always uses the honorific Radi-allahu an-hu, after their names, led him to tell a lie about Yazid being a companion of the Prophet. This is an instance where he picked up on my comment on Zakir Naik, which was not particularly relevant any way. To his credit, he retracted the lie.

Most of us on this board have a high regard for the fundamentals of the Bohra faith and operate within its parameters. We are not here to alienate the Bohras by attacking the fundamentals but by making them aware of abuses within the system.

A very useful dialogue can be had with Sunnis along the lines similar to the one we were having with Ismailies until anajmi alienated Ismailies by insulting their Imam and his continuous refrain, on almost every post of his, against Ismailies, to produce an interpretation of an ayat by the Aga Khan. He destroyed discussion there and was banned by Admin.

By his first post on this thread, I realized that he would continue similar game here and, hence the reason for my request for its deletion.

anajmi claims to be a Sunni, but, with many discussions with Sunnis, I can claim, and have always claimed, that he is an extreme Wahhabi, which he has demonstrated to me over many years.

One cannot have any discussion with someone whom you know considers your faith as rubbish and accuses you of lies before he begins.

anajmi’s success in destroying useful discussions is underlined by this very post which has taken us away from the theme of this thread. I hope this is clear.

anajmi
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#28

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:25 am

led him to tell a lie about Yazid being a companion of the Prophet.
Actually, I wasn't lying. If I was lying, then that means I knew the truth. So if I was lying inspite of knowing the truth in the first place, why would I retract the lie after finding out the truth??

Am I also lying when I say that you, porus, have denied the quran and have indicated that the prophet and the other ahle bait are all frauds?
anajmi’s success in destroying useful discussions is underlined by this very post which has taken us away from the theme of this thread. I hope this is clear.
Well, sometimes, one has to rely on the stupidity of others. :wink:
anajmi claims to be a Sunni, but, with many discussions with Sunnis, I can claim, and have always claimed, that he is an extreme Wahhabi, which he has demonstrated to me over many years.
Labels really don't matter to me anymore. You can call me anything you like. I will continue doing what I am doing.

Instead of trying to get me banned and my posts deleted everytime I say something you guys don't like, maybe you should study your own stuff a little bit more and develop more confidence in it and try to defend it everytime it is attacked, like I do. Or you can whine and run to the admin.

porus
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#29

Unread post by porus » Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:39 am

anajmi wrote: Am I also lying when I say that you, porus, have denied the quran and have indicated that the prophet and the other ahle bait are all frauds?
Bring this up when I declare myself to be Ameer ul-Mumineen.

anajmi
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Re: Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

#30

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:45 am

Sure I will, at every opportunity I get. Now, please let this discussion get back to Maatam.