Maatam for mind control and subjugation..

[anajmi]

I think this ridiculing of the mullahs and the ladies has gone on for too long and has become far too severe. It is time to tone it down a notch.

[haqqun nafs]

Ha ha ha ha ... Good one!!!

I'd be some sight to watch these bearded apes (would be mullahs) take a plunge in the swimming pool.... speaking to each other in lisan-e-dawat and discussing/praising their master... aa moula ni shaan ane dua chhe ke apan sagla aa noorani pani ma swimming kari rahya che.... ane ehni mazaa uthavi rahya chhe.

Aa paani to moula na mubarak aasu che... je moula imam hussain na gham ma bahavi rahya che..... they'll start singing ghanu jeevo ghanu jeevo followed by marasiya and purjosh matam........

i have actually seen the zaadas and zaadis swimming in the pool at my aunt's palatial house in africa. they had invited themselves for a day of fun and frolic followed by ziyafat of course. although both my aunt and uncle were absolutely against it, they had no choice. i was able to hide and peek from one of the higher level bedrooms and saw the zaadis splashing about in their ridaas! it was a most ridiculous sight. later they even went into the sauna with their ridaas on. dont know if they took them off inside, but i wondered at how enslaved they are to this stupid dress code, how many opportunities we are made to lose by this hideous anachronism in a modern age. its like putting yrself in chains and being held back while the world moves ahead at lighning speed.

i was expecting them any minute to break out into maatam and the pool to overflow with their crocodile tears.

lets see how truthful are you...give me the name of zaadis who was involve in swimming pool splash game

[Al Zulfiqar]

lets see how truthful are you...give me the name of zaadis who was involve in swimming pool splash game

after i get your full name, address, contacts and ejamaat no. thanks.

[Al Zulfiqar]

I think this ridiculing of the mullahs and the ladies has gone on for too long and has become far too severe. It is time to tone it down a notch.

anajmi,

point noted, but on one condition. that you continue with your practice of 'hatum'...

[Humsafar]

I think this ridiculing of the mullahs and the ladies has gone on for too long and has become far too severe. It is time to tone it down a notch.

Yes, it's time. Perhaps a few notches!!!!

[Al Zulfiqar]

now in the light of my earlier posts on this subject, wherein it has been proved that maatam is used as a form of self-torture to inflict pain upon oneself and thus derive pleasure or assuage one's guilt/depression/cruelty (the pain/pleasure principle), it therefore logically follows that one should seriously and logically analyse the need for the orthodox and fanatic bohras (slaves of the syedna) to want to do harm to themselves by doing continous maatam of 100 mins to celebrate his so-called 100th birthday according to misri calender.

from a purely dispassionate and scholarly point of view, why should the syedna's followers insist on inflicting pain, torture and cruelty on themselves on a supposedly joyous occasion? lest one say that it is to mark the martyrdom of hussain and the shohoda of kerbala, they are 2 disparate events, with no link to each other. how can a tearful ritual become a part of the syedna's salgirah is beyond logic, unless the convoluted logic states that somehow syedna is being physically slaughtered at the hands of some fictitious foes, or knowing the twisted psychology of the abde minds that the syedna represents the hapless shohodas and has made it the central plank of his crusade to engage the community in maatam 24/7 to exercise mind control over them. in either case, it becomes clear that this entire programme is a clever tool to manipulate the emotions and pockets of the foolish bohras who do not have the faintest idea of the psychologiacl deception and scam being pulled on them.

to further re-inforce this observation is the fact that none of the syedna's family or himself are ever seen leading by example, vehemently hammering themselves silly or shedding any copious tears. they serve as cold-blooded ringmasters or master of ceremonies only. like the skillful conductor of a great philarmonic orchestra, they point, pause, swoop and flail their arms, they exaggerate and extrapolate, they yell and whisper in turns, its all a masterful, artificial show to deceive impressionable minds whose brains have already been pounded into jelly with all the self-inflicted punishment of maatam.

[Al Zulfiqar]

for all those still unconvinced that the syedna and his evil family are exercising satanic mind control on an unsuspecting community who have been actually deprived of their reasoning abilities and turned into fools and knaves, atleast as far as bohraism is concerned, consider this:

as soon as you talk of imam hussain with any ordinary abde, this includes intelligent bohra doctors, engineers, professionals and successful businessmen, besides the simple mohallawala types and village folks, check their reaction. 99% of them will immediately think of his shahadat and in the very next breath think of the syedna. they mentally picture him as he is today, the frail and bent, gaunt helpless creature who has to be carried around like the invalid that he is. this association of the shaheed with the syedna is so strong that any word against syedna is taken as a direct and frontal assault against hussain, the memories of kerbala and the trials and tribulations of the mazloom begging for water on the hot sands of kerbala. this only goes to demonstrate that the sinister attempts of the kothar over the last 40-50 years have enormously succeeded.

it is like a pavlovian reaction, only the kothar is pavlov and the bohras their salivating, experimental dogs. curiously enough, have you noticed that bohras seem to assume an almost proprietary ownership of hussain and the shohodas, as if hussain has some direct connection only with them, individually, and for bohras in general, and the syedna and his family in particular? For all practical purposes hussain has become a dawoodi bohra in their consciousness, which would be apocryphal, as then he would have to be a baniya convert like the indian dai's and the majority of our community, excluding those few from yemen. if hussain is mentioned by other shias or sunnis, its as if hussain's purity and reputation has been sullied by the dirty lips of kafirs.

little do the bohras of the last 50 odd years realise but they have been cruelly and cold-bloodedly manipulated mentally and emotionally. that dog who reacts predictably after days and weeks of pavlovian conditioning is an intelligent animal too, its only he becomes helpless and reacts automatically without thinking rationally when confronted with that bell and that juicy piece of meat. for us that bell is the word hussain and maatam is the associated action required, followed by the tidbit of syedna's dua and sajda to him. the enslavement and emasculation is complete.

[S. Insaf]

The practice of Matam among Muslims
Tabari, II, p. 498; and Baladhuri, V, pp.204 f.
The tragic fate of the grandson of the Prophet stirred religious and moral sentiments, particularly among those of the Kufan followers of the House of the Prophet who had so zealously asked Husain to come to Iraq to guide them on the path of God. But when Husain came to Iraq they could not stand with him in the hour of trial. Soon afterwards, however, they realized that their inability, or rather weakness, had been the cause of the tragedy. A deep sense of repentance set in, provoking their religious conscience; and in order to expiate their negligence and obtain God's forgiveness, they thought they must mourn and express it through Matam.The first majlis-e-Husain was recited in the market-place of Kufa by Imam Husain's sister Hazrat Zainab binte Ali (AS)) from whose head her veil had been ripped off, whose hopes and aspirations had been destroyed on the blood-drenched sands of Karbala but whose indomitable spirit stepped forward to free the Islamic values from the yoke of tyranny and oppression.
"Woe upon you O people of Kufa. Do you realize which piece of Muhammad's heart you have severed! Which pledge you have broken! Whose blood you have shed! Whose honour you have desecrated! It is not just Husain whose headless body lies unburied on the sands of Karbala. It is the heart of the Holy Prophet. It is the very soul of Islam!"
(Sermon of Janab Zainab Bint Ali in Market-place of Kufa)
When the prisoners were finally freed by Yazid, Hazrat Zainab asked for an opportunity to have rites of remembrance in Damascus. A house was made available to them and aza-e-Husain went on for over a week. Thus Hazrat Zainab (A.S.) laid the foundation of aza-e-Husain in the very capital of his murderer!
The first majlis touched and moved the people of Kufa, who had deserted their Imam out of fear, so deeply as to give rise to both the Tawwabun movement and al-Mukhtar's quest for vengeance.
A year later when the supporters of Imam were released from the prisons, and those who turned back due to fear, started to ponder over their actions of not helping their Imam in the time of crisis. This lead to small pockets of rebellion against the Umayyads throughout the Islamic empire.
One year after the event of Karbala, 3000 faithful of Imam started their movement as a revenge for Imam Husain (AS).
The martyrdom of Husain was of great religious significance and had a deep heart-searching after-effect upon the Muslim, giving a new turn to the mode and nature of the Shi'i movement. The tragic fate of the grandson of the Prophet stirred religious and moral sentiments, particularly among those of the Kufan followers of the House of the Prophet who had so zealously asked Husain to come to Iraq to guide them on the path of God. But when Husain came to Iraq they could not stand with him in the hour of trial. Soon afterwards, however, they realized that their inability, or rather weakness, had been the cause of the tragedy. A deep sense of repentance set in, provoking their religious conscience; and in order to expiate their negligence and obtain God's forgiveness, they thought they must mourn and express it through Matam. They believed that they could only prove their real repentance by exposing themselves to death while seeking vengeance for the blood of Husain. Hence they named themselves the Tawwabun (penitents) and are known in Islamic history by this self-imposed title.
This movement proved to be an important step forward in the consolidation of Shi'a Islam. The movement began under the leadership of five of the oldest and most trusted associates of 'Hazrat Ali ibne Abi Talib (AS), with a following of a hundred diehard and devoted faithful of Kufa, none of whom was below sixty years of age. This age factor should particularly be noted, as it indicates the maturity of their religious thinking and behaviour.
The five leaders of the movement, Sulayman b. Surad al-Khuza`i, Al-Musayyab b. Najaba al-Fazari; `Abd Allah b. Sa`d b. Nufayl al-Azdi, Abd Allah b. Walin at-Tami, and Rifa`a b. Shaddad al-Bajali; had always been in the forefront of all activities of faithful in Kufa, and were highly respected for their sincerity of purpose and unshaken devotion to the cause of the Ahl al- Bayt. Similarly, the other hundred who joined these leaders of the movement are described as "the most select from among the followers of 'Ali".
After the Tawabbun movement, 3 years after the event of Karbala, Al-Mukhtar ibn Abi Ubayd al Thaqafi led another Shia rebellion against the Umayyads, more political in nature. Mukhtar, however was martyred a year later.
This is also one of the reasons why we can see the graves of the Ahlulbayt, and the followers of Ali (AS), spread throughout Iran, Iraq, Saudia and Syria.
This might be proof enough of the exile and execution, the Ahlulbayt and their faithful went through during the tyrant era of Umayyads and later era of Abbasids.

[Al Zulfiqar]

bhai insaf,

atleast those penitent kufans, the tawabbun, were doing maatam out of guilt. the bohras of today under the leadership of syedna do not have even that justification for pounding their brains into pulp. not only are they neither the descendants of the kufans nor of arabs, the present lot of bohras including all our dais of hind are descendants of baniyas.

so whats the rationale behind their constant refrain of ya hussain and maatam 24/7 under the strict injunctions of our wily kothari baniyas? simple. mind control and subjugation, cleverly linking hussain and kerbala with dai and allegiance to him, putting blind faith in the false miracles attributed to him and finally allowing his hired goons to reach into your pockets and robbing you blind. its as if the entire community is under mass hynosis. the greatest magicians in history like houdini, david copperfield or p.c sorcar are but mere retards compared to the scale of mesmerism that the dai and his family have perpetrated on the community.

[Al Zulfiqar]

has anyone noticed the conspicous absence of the mealy mouthed abde street urchins on this thread?

as someone else has commented elsewhere, they shy away from anything way above their IQ level which generally hovers around 32 or so and if they do its only to dumb it down to their gutter level with stupid personal remarks having no bearing on the topic.

c'mon kothari hecklers, we need you to liven up this topic with your denials and mud-slinging.

[Al Zulfiqar]

in the latest breaking news, it has been announced that to mark the occasion of syedna's 100th, no er... 95th, oops 99th, heck ok... 100th salgirah, all bilad jamaats must undertake a continous maatam of 100 hours.

if they can all do this together, fine. otherwise relay teams must be formed, each team can carry on for say 2-3 hours and then the other team will take over, each team will get rest for 6 hours and return. during their rest time they will get breakfast, lunch or dinner as suitable. all the maatamdaran's sweat and blood stained torn kurta saayas will be sent to saifee mahal by fedex and then hung and displayed from the windows of saifee mahal from all sides. sydena will do phoonk of these shirts and then send them to each respective jamaat. the shirts can be collected from their jamaats on payment of 15552 rs. or equivalent.

su nirali shaan che apna maula ni....!!!!

[broadminded]

Good one!! ROFL!!

[profastian]

Good one!! ROFL!!

Look at the pig ROFL...

[londonwala]

Al Zulfiqar

Excellent posts. It’s good to read your intelligent, well written points. Unfortunately there are a few idiots who write rubbish and deliberately mess up good forum threads and debates.

[Conscíous]

That was humorous ,.,hehe..

[jannatul baqi]

Al Zulfiqar

Excellent posts. It’s good to read your intelligent, well written points. Unfortunately there are a few idiots who write rubbish and deliberately mess up good forum threads and debates.

londonwala are u from london or some srilankan village?

this is not called intelligence to mock religion it is called nuisance value.

[Smart]

This is getting interesting.
AZ challenges abdes to come and post. He even claims that their IQs are 32.
The JB and Prof come and post and prove AZ right by displaying their IQs, which are in the sub 30 range.

Thanks JB and Prof.

[Al Zulfiqar]

smart, did'nt u know? one of the basic principles of psychology is that an idiot doesnt know that he is an idiot.

similarly, a retard with an IQ of 32 actually thinks he is albert einstein. we have several examples of them on this board.

[profastian]

smart, did'nt u know? one of the basic principles of psychology is that an idiot doesnt know that he is an idiot.

similarly, a retard with an IQ of 32 actually thinks he is albert einstein. we have several examples of them on this board.

Yeah, AZ, Smart, Insaap.. etc

[Al Zulfiqar]

smart, did'nt u know? one of the basic principles of psychology is that an idiot doesnt know that he is an idiot.

similarly, a retard with an IQ of 32 actually thinks he is albert einstein. we have several examples of them on this board.

Yeah, AZ, Smart, Insaap.. etc

prof,

thanks for proving my point!!!!!

[profastian]

Yeah, AZ, Smart, Insaap.. etc

prof,

thanks for proving my point!!!!!

Don't worry your point is proven every time you open ur mouth

[Al Zulfiqar]

i have reliably learnt from "deep throat", my confidential highly placed source within kothar, that the evil brains behind the scenes who have employed rogue psychologists specialising in mass behaviour and mind control to engage slavish and blind abdes into doing incessant maatam, are working on some audio tapes.

these audio tapes which will purportedly contain ashura bayans of the syedna from last several annual tamashas, will be subtly doctored to contain subliminal messages. now lest some dumb abde ask what are subliminal messages, here is a brief explanation:

"Subliminal stimuli (literally "below threshold"), are any sensory stimuli below an individual's absolute threshold for conscious perception. Visual stimuli may be quickly flashed before an individual may process them, or flashed and then masked, thereby interrupting the processing. Audio stimuli may be played below audible volumes, similarly masked by other stimuli, or recorded backwards in a process called backmasking. Introduced in 1897, the concept became controversial as "subliminal messages" in 1957 when marketing practitioners claimed its potential use in persuasion. Apart from their controversial use in marketing, subliminal stimuli are employed in scientific research on perception without awareness, or unconscious perception. Subconscious stimuli are well known to be effective in changing human behavior or emotions."

it is also well-known that these messages have a deep and lasting impact esp. when the subject is 'primed' to receive such messages and be influenced by them. eg. a hungry man will be more influenced by subliminal messages about food than a man who has just had a heavy meal. therefore a gullible abde fool with an iq of 32 like the specimens here, who is eagerly lapping up the words dished out by syedna will be extremely susceptible to any subliminal messages prompting him to do maatam or to empty his bank accounts and shower money on the immortal haq na saheb. it therefore follows that the sale of these tapes will have a double-pronged effect. 1. they will make money selling these noorani tapes. 2. they will make a windfall, i.e. more money, when same said fools will take great delight in lavishing all their hard earned savings on the syedna or any of his mongrels when prompted to do so.

the possibilities are endless here. perhaps in the future they will insert clever messages which may provoke you into violence against any 'dawat na dushmano' or even to sell yr house and donate the proceeds to saifee mahal.

wah bhai wah! kya dimagh hai!! su eni niraali shaan che.

[Al Zulfiqar]

in case there is even a .001% doubt that the kothari crooks are not brainwashing us, here is additional proof of how bohras are being mentally controlled and manipulated.

A remarkable thing about cult mind control is that it's so ordinary in the tactics and strategies of social influence employed. They are variants of well-known social psychological principles of compliance, conformity, persuasion, dissonance, reactance, framing, emotional manipulation, and others that are used on all of us daily to entice us: to buy, to try, to donate, to vote, to join, to change, to believe, to love, to hate the enemy.

Cult mind control is not different in kind from these everyday varieties, but in its greater intensity, persistence, duration, and scope. One difference is in its greater efforts to block quitting the group, by imposing high exit costs, replete with induced phobias of harm, failure, and personal isolation. Many groups use unethical persuasion tactics in retaining members. These methods can range from religious persecution to scare tactics (imposing high exit costs, e.g. convincing a person that leaving the group means losing one's salvation).

While such psychological manipulation is a form of mind control, it does not automatically follow that individuals who join - or remain with - cultic movements become irresponsible, mindless automatons, unable to think for themselves in every sphere of life, just the ones where they are manipulated emotionally and religiously.

Cults usually feature a strong leader who is admired with a fervent devotion. People will follow him... and on rare occasions, her... anywhere.

Cults try to keep their members isolated from outside influences that might cause doubt to arise, combining that with restricting social contacts with others of different communities, regulating hair styles and dress codes and condemning morally neutral activities such as dancing, listening to "secular" music or attending speeches of intellectuals not from your community without permission.

Cults claim exclusive access to God's will. They're the only ones who have it all down right, they're the only ones getting into heaven.

Cults control and sometimes destroy lives by dictating the personal lives of the members.

UNIVERSAL DEFINITION

CULT - Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming from the person/persons at the top. The group will claim to be the only way to God; Jannat, Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform or mind control techniques to gain control and keep their members.

This definition covers cults within all major world religions, along with those cults which have no OBVIOUS religious base such as commercial, educational and psychological cults. Others may define these a little differently, but this is the simplest to work from.

(a) The group will have an ELITIST view of itself in relation to others, and a UNIQUE CAUSE. i.e. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES RIGHT - everyone else is wrong. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES DOING GOD'S WILL - everyone else is in apostasy.

(b) They will promote their cause actively, and in doing so, abuse God-given personal rights and freedoms. This abuse can be THEOLOGICAL, SPIRITUAL, SOCIAL & PSYCHOLOGICAL.


HOW THEY DO THIS

1. Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority given by God.

2. They believe they are the only true religion and take a critical stance of all others while at the same time praising and exalting their own group leader/s and work.

3. They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to their ranks. This could be in the form of threats of dire calamity sent by God if they leave; being shunned by their family and friends etc. This is a vital part of the mind control process.

4. Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to the group. This could be compulsory taxes; coercive emotional and religious methods of instilling guilt on those who have not contributed.

5. There will be great emphasis on loyalty to the group and its teachings. The lives of members will be totally absorbed into the group's activities. They will have little or no time to think for themselves because of physical and emotional exhaustion. This is also a vital part of the mind control process.

6. There will be total control over almost all aspects of the private lives of members. This control can be direct through constant communal events, constant and repetitious teaching on eg. "how to be a true abdesyedna" or "being obedient to leadership". Members will look to their leaders for guidance in everything they do.

7. Any dissent or questioning of the group's teachings is discouraged. Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission. This is vigilantly maintained.

8. Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in every way. This could be in the form of "ratting" on fellow members (including family) under the guise of looking out for their "spiritual welfare".

9. Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may be met with threats. either physical or of hell and damnation, as members will have taken oaths of loyalty that involve their lives and property.

Rebels of the group are usually faced with confrontations by other members with coercion to get them to return to the group.


SOME ABUSES OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS:

1. ABUSE OF INDIVIDUALITY They adopt a "groupness" mentality. They are not permitted to think for themselves apart from the group and only accept what they are told.

2. ABUSE OF INTIMACY Relationships with friends, relatives, spouses, children, parents etc are broken or seriously hampered.

3. ABUSE OF FINANCES Pressure to give all you can to the group. Those who give more are 'promoted' and given high sounding titles and become higher class members with privileges, thus those who do not have big sums of money to give, aspire to reach the elite status. This class system works fully in favor of the cult leaders. No cult or its sub-groups will ever provide transparent accounts to the 'lowly serfs'. This further re-inforces their servility and lends an aura of power and invincibility to the cult leaders who project an image of great wealth and influence.

4. "US VERSUS THEM" MENTALITY Isolation from other communities in general. Anyone and everything outside the group is seen as "of the devil" or "unenlightened" etc. Their enemies now include former cult members, unfriendly governments; education systems; the media - the world in general. Those who are involved with these in any way see such involvement only as a "means to an end".

5. ABUSE OF TIME AND ENERGY The group controls and uses almost all the members time and energy in group activities. They are usually in a constant state of mental and physical exhaustion.

6. ABUSE OF FREE WILL They must unquestioning submit to the groups teachings and directions and their own free will is broken. Their "will" actually becomes the groups "will" without their realizing it. This is done either by coercive methods including religious indoctrination, food as a bribe, or over a period of time through brain washing, repetitive actions, false miracles and even intimidation. Both methods make heavy use of "guilt".


RESULTS OF THIS ABUSE

1. PERSONALITY CHANGES

Relatives and friends will say they no longer recognize the person.

2. LOSS OF IDENTITY

They cannot see themselves as individuals apart from the group. Some even change their names under inducement from the cult leader.

3. PARANOID - WE ARE BEING PERSECUTED

Any time you say anything negative about the group, whether justified or no, it is regarded as "persecution". Any criticism of the individual is also seen as persecution only because they are the "true or "enlightened" one - not because they, as an individual, have done the wrong thing. However, at the same time they will feel free to criticise whatever you believe, say and do because they are "the only ones who are right".

4. SOCIAL DISORIENTATION

They lose their ability to socialize outside the group. This can go so far as to not being able to structure their time or simply become misfits due to their peculiar dress and behaviour which sets them apart and arouses feelings of revulsion or hatred amongst other non-cult members.

Their world-view alters and they perceive the world through their leaders eyes. They become very naive about life in general.

5. SEVERE GUILT COMPLEXES

They are made to feel guilty of everything they do which does not conform to the cult leaders model and are to strive to be "good" and "worthy" for "eternal life". Misdemeanors are made into "mountains" so that members are in a constant state of guilt for infringing even the most minor rules. Guilt comes because they aren't doing enough; entertaining doubts or questions; even thinking rationally for oneself.

This guilt is piled upon pile with new rules constantly being laid down about what is sinful and what is not. Even lack of money to shower on the cult may be seen as lack of faith - more guilt. Lack of heavy involvement in the cult may be seen as proof of disloyalty and sin in your life - more guilt.

[Al Zulfiqar]

the longer the syedna lives, the more desperate the maatam by the abdes and the more control they lose over themselves.

so as they hammer themselves silly they are slowly sliding into a morass of no return, accepting voluntary subjugation and slavery. the happy occasion of the salgirah is actually becoming their murky swamp with loss of dignity, common-sense and rational intellect.

as the syedna cuts his cake, he also cuts the vas deferens of his foolish abdes, making them even more impotent and pitiable, emasculating them totally.

[Conscíous]

Br Al Zulfiqar,
Your analysis skills are excellent.. I've predicted the same.. they will worsen & I fear for my loved ones

[Al-Muizz]

Well, the act of maatam has become a showcase of purported level of ikhlaas, unfortunately. However, let's look beyond these acts, and let's focus on the crux/absolute legitimacy of maatam. Imam ZainulAbideen A.S. was the first leader who did show us the importance of maatam for remembering Karbala. Sure, there was dignity and restraint, which needs to be reestablished. The obvious reasons for maatam come up. However, to call the ritual outdated is ignoring 1000s of years of history. Yes, it is a ritual, which, by default is meant to ensure the entire group works together. Whether that constitutes mind control and subjugation is one's opinion. If that's the argument, however, then singing a national anthem, pledging allegiance to the flag, etc, are also all for mind control and subjugation....yet we don't look at them as such. So, why do we suddenly think the maatam is for mind control and subjugation?

[Al Zulfiqar]

Well, the act of maatam has become a showcase of purported level of ikhlaas, unfortunately. However, let's look beyond these acts, and let's focus on the crux/absolute legitimacy of maatam. Imam ZainulAbideen A.S. was the first leader who did show us the importance of maatam for remembering Karbala. Sure, there was dignity and restraint, which needs to be reestablished. The obvious reasons for maatam come up. However, to call the ritual outdated is ignoring 1000s of years of history. Yes, it is a ritual, which, by default is meant to ensure the entire group works together. Whether that constitutes mind control and subjugation is one's opinion. If that's the argument, however, then singing a national anthem, pledging allegiance to the flag, etc, are also all for mind control and subjugation....yet we don't look at them as such. So, why do we suddenly think the maatam is for mind control and subjugation?

muizz,

your analogies in the way that maatam is being conducted now among bohras and some shias with singing the national anthem is self-serving and nonsensical. dignified mourning and observing legitimate grief is within bounds of decency and faith, highly exaggerated and violent demonstrations of grief, esp under the direction and control of religious figures whom one trusts, is not only hypocritical, but is classified as shirk and is definitely a means of mind control and subjugation.

singing one's national anthem or taking an oath of allegiance to one's country are not acts of violent incitement to inflict harm on others or to subjugate them. it is an act of patriotism and pride. nothing more. please read my post more carefully to understand what type of maatam i talk about. just skimming over the title and then jumping in only shows your ignorance of the subject at hand.

[Al-Muizz]

AZ,

Actually, you need to read carefully what I wrote. I am, infact, agreeing with you, on the degradation of dignified maatam, the way it used to be conducted for all these years. As I mentioned, it has become a sort of male chauvanism now.

My argument is with many folks who in the past, and present, are questioning the very legitimacy of maatam. Maatam is not mind control and subjugation. And no one in the "authority" actually encourages the wild gesticulations, etc, that is seen nowadays. That comes purely from the individual, and the rest copying each other. Also, NO ONE in "authority" is asking mumineen to inflict self wounds during maatam...that statement is patently false. To claim maatam as an act is shirk, is ridiculous, as it is the basis of our shia ismaili philosophy. As I mentioned, it is akin to pledging allegiance to a flag, and claiming that is wrong.

Well, the act of maatam has become a showcase of purported level of ikhlaas, unfortunately. However, let's look beyond these acts, and let's focus on the crux/absolute legitimacy of maatam. Imam ZainulAbideen A.S. was the first leader who did show us the importance of maatam for remembering Karbala. Sure, there was dignity and restraint, which needs to be reestablished. The obvious reasons for maatam come up. However, to call the ritual outdated is ignoring 1000s of years of history. Yes, it is a ritual, which, by default is meant to ensure the entire group works together. Whether that constitutes mind control and subjugation is one's opinion. If that's the argument, however, then singing a national anthem, pledging allegiance to the flag, etc, are also all for mind control and subjugation....yet we don't look at them as such. So, why do we suddenly think the maatam is for mind control and subjugation?

muizz,

your analogies in the way that maatam is being conducted now among bohras and some shias with singing the national anthem is self-serving and nonsensical. dignified mourning and observing legitimate grief is within bounds of decency and faith, highly exaggerated and violent demonstrations of grief, esp under the direction and control of religious figures whom one trusts, is not only hypocritical, but is classified as shirk and is definitely a means of mind control and subjugation.

singing one's national anthem or taking an oath of allegiance to one's country are not acts of violent incitement to inflict harm on others or to subjugate them. it is an act of patriotism and pride. nothing more. please read my post more carefully to understand what type of maatam i talk about. just skimming over the title and then jumping in only shows your ignorance of the subject at hand.

[Al Zulfiqar]

muiz,

once again you are quick on your trigger finger without reading my post in its entirety. this is what you said;

"And no one in the "authority" actually encourages the wild gesticulations, etc, that is seen nowadays. That comes purely from the individual, and the rest copying each other. Also, NO ONE in "authority" is asking mumineen to inflict self wounds during maatam...that statement is patently false. To claim maatam as an act is shirk, is ridiculous, as it is the basis of our shia ismaili philosophy..."

does that make sense to you what you wrote? do you ever attend moharram tamashas? in the presence of the amil or zaada or syedna himself, people form circles and groups and beat themselves silly until they bleed, they use chains with sharp objects which they swing violently around themselves inflicting sharp cuts and gashes on themselves. this is in the presence of the 'authority', while the marasiya party gets even more strident in their singing and yelling and the so-called tamasha leaders punctuate the proceedings with occasional lusty cries of 'ya hussain', etc. if the clergy were to issue a stern edict banning such practices would the brainless abdes dare disobey??

as for shirk, this is what i said, "highly exaggerated and violent demonstrations of grief, esp under the direction and control of religious figures whom one trusts, is not only hypocritical, but is classified as shirk and is definitely a means of mind control and subjugation." should i make my language any simpler for you to understand?

yes, do go ahead and observe grief in a dignified, restrained manner, since it is the cornerstone of shia philosphy, but do not indulge in jaahiliyat and shirk by going overboard, as it degenerates into a tamasha where external actions override the basic underlying niyyat.

[Humsafar]

@Zulfiqar: Actually Muizz also saying that this is jahaliyat.

@Muizz: Zulfiqar is pointing out the source and cause of that jahaliyat.