Recent Observations

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Aarif
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Recent Observations

#1

Unread post by Aarif » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:06 pm

Recently after a long time I had been to the masjid on 9th and 10th of Muharram. I went to Bohra masjid almost after 5 years.

I made some simple observations about our community. They are as follows:

1) The community domain is completely secured from external Islamic influences. For dawoodi bohras whatever comes from syedna and his appointed clergy is the only truth. After looking at the people in the masjid and listening to the relay, I realized that the dawoodi bohras will not think anything outside their bohri domain in terms of religious or social ideas even if someone tries to hack in by giving a million dollars to each bohra. They are welded to the community and that's it PERIOD
2) The love for Dai is still the same and will continue in coming future without any problems. Bohras strongly beleive that
Syedna is their Dai appointed by Imam and in turn appointed by Allah. Any bohra who does not beleive in Dai does not believe in Imam,Vasi,Nabi and ultimately Allah. Words like "Meh tamharo bawaji saheb chu, Meh Imam Husain no Dai chu, Tamhe mharaa farzando cho, Mharaa ghar naa darwaaza ardhi raaten bhi tamharaa waste khulla che, Mhane tamhaari ghani fikar che, Meh tamhaari fikar nahin karu toh kaun karse" spoken by Syedna create extreme hysteria amongst bohras and they dil se pray for his long life.
3) Small kids of ages anywhere between 5-10 years have been trained to utter sentences like "Laieen Shimar aayo ne Imam Husain na shinaa mubarak par bethi ne bootha khanjar thi baar raghdaa phiraawa". These children are tomorrows dawoodi bohras. They are systematically well trained in our existing bohraism. Tomorrow when these kids grow up they will become exact replicas of existing orthodox dawoodi bohras. Hence, after 15-20 years when these kids will become adults they will be all set as abde syedna.
4) Bohras do not care what others i.e. the outside world thinks about them. They are living in their own small world with
their Dai as the religious head. They look very confident about their dress code, their appearance and their life style.
Whether it is US or India. Bohras are still the same everywhere.
5) Regarding the food, bohras all over the world have been adviced not to add too much ghee, oil, and masalas to their jaman. It seems, Syedna wants the community to focus on health as well. People in many parts of India, where traditionally spicy food is preferred, have drastically reduced usage of oil and spices based on hidayat of Syedna. This seems to be a positive change in our community
6) As far as following Islam is concerned we are lacking a lot. After magrib faraz bohras were asked to pray two rakats for their Dai before going to Isha. Syedna very confidently said on 9th that on 10th of Muharram he will come and recite the
Shahadat of Imam Husain for mumineen. He never used the word "Inshallah". I did not expect this from a person of his level. Also, there have been many new madehs added in praise of Syedna constantly referring to him as aqa and all bohras as his adnaa gulaamo. The surprising part is bohras sing these praises with full vigor and enthusiasm. They don't care whether it is Islamically write or wrong. They think that apne toh maula no daman pakdi lidho che. Hawen jannat toh pakki che...
7) Even though the community members are paying through their nose, they did not look very unhappy. I was expecting a very disgruntled and dis-satisfied crowd eagerly waiting for a change. To my disappointment I did not see anything like that. Going by my recent personal experience I don't think there is any hope of reforming our community as a feeling within the community exists that things are going good. Apne dai naa thanda saaya ma mehfuz che.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
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Re: Recent Observations

#2

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:38 pm

Aarif,

A very good observation indeed. There is no hope for the community in general as they are happy where they are. And it is understandable. Let someone else bear the burden of carrying you to heaven. I would've been glad to let someone else carry my burden too. But I have understood just enough of the quran to know that that is a lie. And the reformists haven't done enough, or anything at all, to dispell this belief.

I believe that unless Allah sends his help, the bohras are a lost cause. Unfortunately, not a lot of reformists are actual believers in Allah. Hence, the passion that accompanies faith is lacking. I haven't seen a lot of reformists who have adopted reform because of faith. They are reformists as a reaction. A reaction to getting beaten up or humiliated by the kothar.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Recent Observations

#3

Unread post by accountability » Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:29 pm

Arif and Anajmi, you both have valid points. Arif you are right when you see people not disgruntled by sheer corruption and exploitation of religion. But them being not disgruntled is not because they dont care about corruption or exploitation. Most of the bohras take it as a fact, once you give to syedna it is his money, however he spends is none of their business. About the religion itself, they only know bohra religion so for them there is nothing wrong in believing what present administation is saying.
Anajmi you rightly said that no body can take you to heaven, but again it is bohra's belief or he wants to believe it that syedns saheb will take his hand and lead him to his fantastic abode in heaven. it is simpler, easier and fool hardy.
Despite all this doom and gloom, there is an urge for real reform. Majority of Bohras do not want to reform the religion, rather they want reform in administration, easier access, accountable managment and religion in its essence.
Beacause you went after 5 years, you expected a visible change, change that could be seen on the surface, which is not there. It is a bit disappointing that pace of change is very slow. I do think that the urge and desire for change has increased, there is an unseemly defiance in the air.
Reformists have never claimed to reform the religion or its behaviour. Rather it the desire for change in management, which is accountable, religion on its factual basis, not to be used as a tool to subjugate or enslave the masses.
I would say dont give up hope, you stick to your principles and what is right, dont be coerced into anything. If you visit frequently you will find right minded people if not in abundance but not too scarce.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
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Re: Recent Observations

#4

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:27 pm

aarif,

i have to respect a person who can go into the midst of a frenetic atmosphere and frenzied crowd and still remain detached enough to quietly and dispassionately observe people and the happenings around him. very few people have that quality. it is a rare ability. nurture it and cultivate it. may allah give you jazakallah khair to continue on this path.

i too stood quietly in a corner and observed, not without feeling alternative pangs of sadness, contempt, despair and disgust. sadness at the extent to which our community has been misled and misinformed. contempt at the clergy and to some extent at ourselves in being allowed to be fooled to this limit inspite of being generally shrewd businessmen and intelligent people. despair that reforms will never be possible in the face of such unbelievable skuldduggery, disgust at the state to which we have been reduced by a machiavellian establishment intent on looting us and enslaving us.

perhaps the most overriding feeling was of pity for my brethren, ordinary and trusting bohras who show such simple faith in their leadership and are being deceived on such a vast scale. i have travelled to remote towns and villages in india, africa and middle-east and met such bohras and have always been very touched by their warm hospitality, affection and complete affinity for a fellow 'apnawala'. there was an unspeakable bond which united me with complete strangers. their simplicity and uncomplicated faith was amply evident with the displayed photos and other paraphernalia of syedna and bohraism. it speaks to your heart way beyond any words. and to see these criminal kothari mercenaries exploit the faith of such salt-of-the-earth types is very painful.

with every prayer i pray, i pray for justice and inshallah, allah ke ghar mein der hai andher nahi hai..

Fatwa Banker
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Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Recent Observations

#5

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:30 pm

AZ,

While you stood quietly in the corner and observed, feeling sadness and despair, it is quite likely that some others looked at you and were overcome by the same emotions thinking you were being misinformed and misled. Point being, there were probably several others just like you feeling sorry for the other guy.

Too many damn people standing quietly.....and observing, not only in the Bohra community, but Muslims in general.

TBG
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:12 am

Re: Recent Observations

#6

Unread post by TBG » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:49 am

I could not help but say a few things based on the previous comments.

I mentioned this before in a few other discussions as well.

I agree with anajmi on reformism. One is a reformist not by faith but by action. It is a different thing having a difference of opinion. I also agree completely with aarif on bohras being totally complacent with their circumstances. Those who even complain at the end of the day are too scared to say anything and too attached to the community. Unfortunately for some bohras their lives A-Z resolves around bohras. So much so 99% of the poeple they know and interact are bohras. How do you expect them then to listen to an outside voice let alone understand. The decades of brain washing has done extensive damage.

One interesting observation that i have seen is that although bohras are nice to themselves and non bohras but in their hearts they dont considered other muslims muslims. To them only they are "Mumins" the follower of the right path and those are are going to heaven. They will never indulge in a religious intellectual debate and that is for many reason. To a certain extent to me it sounds like hypocrisy as you are nice only on top although you consider others lower than yourselves. I am sure this thought doesnt even get pass them.

The real issue as i see if not observing and feeling sad or angry at this ridiculousness but what is being done. Like FB mentioned too many people standing quietly. If we cannot do something directly or stand up and oppose, we should do watever we can for whoever we can. Charity begins at home and even if we can help some of our people in removing any sort of ignorance frm their lives i am sure it will help a great deal in the end. What we need is to educate people either through formal education process or questioning their believes and debating with them without fear.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Recent Observations

#7

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:30 am

TBG wrote: The real issue as i see if not observing and feeling sad or angry at this ridiculousness but what is being done. Like FB mentioned too many people standing quietly. If we cannot do something directly or stand up and oppose, we should do watever we can for whoever we can. Charity begins at home and even if we can help some of our people in removing any sort of ignorance frm their lives i am sure it will help a great deal in the end. What we need is to educate people either through formal education process or questioning their believes and debating with them without fear.
isnt that what this site is doing? educating people and allowing debates without fear? as for personal contacts and face to face discussions, most reformist minded bohras i know on this forum, do talk openly about the issues with other bohras. but at the end of the day, you can take a horse to the water, you cannot force it to drink.

the only choice you have if you really want to do something is to leave this mess and either join up a reformist jamat, take up some other faith or no faith or become an atheist. many christians in the west have given up on their religion altogether and prefer to remain just good human beings. what most reform minded bohras have already realised is that they have only one choice, conform or leave. all this talk of doing something from inside is complete hogwash. the syedna and his gang have closed all doors for reform or negotiation. they have tightened their grip so firmly, that you have no means of fighting back. after the udaipur rebellion, all the bohra communal properties are put on syedna's name, all the amils are appointed from bombay, the moneys collected from each jamaat goes to syedna, the jamaat committees are appointed by syedna, everything has been centralised to such an extent by means of records and ejammat cards etc, that you cannot even go for any ziyarats, haj or carry out any important events in your lives without a safai chitthi, raza or some sort of payments. they have the bohras by their balls and you may negotiate a wee bit, but not confront.

so lets not kid ourselves here. they call it a club. you want in, you pay and obey. if not, go take a flying leap and get out. after you have gone, they will laugh and say, "good riddance of bad rubbish".

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Recent Observations

#8

Unread post by Aarif » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:52 pm

Good post br. AZ. I agree with you completely..

TBG and FB,

What you guys are saying makes sense in theory. But when it comes to practical the scene is quite different. E.g. can you go to a bohri masjid and ask a bohra, why you are praying two rakats for your Dai? Can you tell them this is Unislamic and must be stopped? Try debating with an abde on what is Islamic and what is Unislamic. I have been visting this forum for past 5 years. I have seen many abde syedna like Gulf, profrog, propig, East Africawalla etc. Inspite of the true stories and knowledgeable articles posted by reformist minded bohras exposing Unislamic practices of Syedna and kothar, these people have not changed at all. Even today they strongly believe in their Dai and his greatness. They dismiss all true stories as lies propogated by reformists to tarnish the image of Syedna.

As per Islam idol worship is not allowed. But Hindus worship idols as gods. Can a Muslim go to a Mandir and tell Hindus that idol worshipping is wrong? My point is according to Bohras anything that comes from Syedna is taken as word of Allah. Debating with bohras against the teachings of Dai is same as debating with a Hindu on why idol worship is wrong.

And even if there are people who are willing to come out in open and discuss reformist agenda, bohras are not interested. Most of them are happy the way they are. Change can only come if people are willing to change. But if most of them are happy with what they have there is not much that you can do. This is what atleast surprised me during my recent visit to bohra masjid. Remember, if dis-satisfaction can act as powerful trigger for change, satisfaction can increase the inertia preventing any further change.

questions
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:11 pm

Re: Recent Observations

#9

Unread post by questions » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:43 pm

Almost twenty years ago, I saw a modern educated young Bohri woman in Bombay actually praying in front of the main picture of the syedna in her house like a Hindu asking for blessing. On seeing my incedulous face, she calmly said i am asking him to protect me from 'shar' as I go out to work. I shudder to think of her state of mind now.

Another intelligent modern friend of mine matter of factly pointed out to the main picture in the markaz that 'mola does everything'. I almost bit my tongue, Allah does not figure in the picture anymore. Mainstream bohras are NOT MUSLIMS by any stretch of the imagination.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Recent Observations

#10

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:59 pm

i do not have a single picture of the syedna in my house. many bohras have been and come regularly to my house, incl. sheikhs who are related by family ties. no one has dared to ask me about it. if they do, my retort will be stinging in its effect. it is better they dont ask.

Aarif
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Recent Observations

#11

Unread post by Aarif » Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:14 pm

Just a few years back I had met a bohri girl who has done electronics engineering from a reputed college in Mumbai. During our meeting I casually asked her how are you doing? In reply she told me that today she is doing good but yesterday she had a very bad throat. Than I asked her whether she went to the doctor or what? In reply she told me that "not at all, I just went to the roza mubarak of Syedna Taher Saifuddin yesterday and prayed to him. Moula ni shifaa thi mhaaru galu saaru thai gayu..."

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Recent Observations

#12

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:05 pm

A bohra doctor from london who unfortunately is a hardcore abde had a very unfortunate experience recently. It so happened that his infant daughter of around 4 years suddenly complained of a very blurred vision after which she was examined by renowned doctors of london who came to the conclusion that the girl is rapidly on the verge of loosing her eyesight. The shocked abde bohra doctor immediately flew to Mumbai and put his daughter on Burhanudin saab's feet and wept profusely with an araz that 'Mola tame maari dikri ne shifa aapo'. Burhanudin saab told him to get a bottle of honey and a stick made out of a specified tolas of gold. Thereafter he blew some 'phook' on the items and told him to apply honey with the gold stick in the daughter's eyes and that she will retain her normal eyesight. The result....... The girl has completely lost her eyesight.

The irony of the matter is that even after this incident the abde doctor still makes rounds of saifee mahal and sings 'ghanu jeevo ghanu jeevo' and donates huge amounts to mola. This is the state of the fanatic abdes whose mental illness cannot be cured because Allah doesnt want it to happen. They are a misguided lot who are under the false illusion that mola will solve all their wordly problems and take them to jannat thereafter. So it is impossible to give 'tauhfiq' to the ones for whom Allah has other plans.

Fatwa Banker
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Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Recent Observations

#13

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:16 pm

Aarif wrote:What you guys are saying makes sense in theory. But when it comes to practical the scene is quite different. E.g. can you go to a bohri masjid and ask a bohra, why you are praying two rakats for your Dai? Can you tell them this is Unislamic and must be stopped? Try debating with an abde on what is Islamic and what is Unislamic.
You missed the point. My question is what are you and AZ doing there in the first place ? Religious gatherings much like rallies for political or social causes draw from their strength in numbers. It is a reinforcement of their beliefs, and by being there you are an enabler. I have heard enough about one being there for their better half, family pressure etc. as it is a bunch of baloney. I stopped attending in my late teens so I know what it is like and about. Going to a Bohra masjid and questioning the followers is the last thing I would suggest as I respect their right to believe in what they see fit, as long as it does not harm others and it is by choice. The last of my concerns about the Bohras is that of them being "un-Islamic" and that is why I support the limited progressive agenda of social reform ,however ineffective it might be. For Dawoodi Bohras to practice Islam like the the “true Muslims” (aka Wahabis) do, would be a move down for them.

Who would you rather be on a plane full of Anajmis or Dawoodi Bohras ?

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Recent Observations

#14

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:40 am

One thing I know for sure is that, you'd rather not be on a plane full of anajmis. And no one cares about Dawoodi-Bohras because they are a bunch of cowards. Stand up to these war mongering basterds and you will be labelled a terrorist. That has been the policy of imperialist governments since the beginning of time. Either be a coward or be dead. These a_holes won't allow you to be anything in between. You cannot be a good muslim. You'd have to be a dawoodi-bohra or a blood thirsty wahhabi.

I'd rather drive, considering that Al-Qaeda has already taken over American airports.

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Recent Observations

#15

Unread post by Aarif » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:47 am

You missed the point. My question is what are you and AZ doing there in the first place ? Religious gatherings much like rallies for political or social causes draw from their strength in numbers. It is a reinforcement of their beliefs, and by being there you are an enabler. I have heard enough about one being there for their better half, family pressure etc. as it is a bunch of baloney. I stopped attending in my late teens so I know what it is like and about.
The last of my concerns about the Bohras is that of them being "un-Islamic" and that is why I support the limited progressive agenda of social reform
FB,

Read your own post carefully. On one hand you want social reforms and on another hand you don't want to go to bohri gatherings. That's pretty moronic isn't it? I feel that the only way of interacting and finding out more about our community is through these visits on important religious occasions because that is the time when everyone generally comes. If you have completely stopped going to our community gatherings, and since, you don't care about Islam, I think your precence or absence makes no difference to the community even from reformist perspective. I suggest that you read the reformist agenda once again. They want to bring about reforms in our community by remaining part of the community and not by staying away from it. Trying to change the community by staying out of the community is like trying to take a bath without using water.

Also, as far as our religious beliefs are concerned I was referring to the non-Islamic practices that have creeped in during the reign of last two syednas. Innovations in an existing religion for selfish goals is not acceptable.

Fatwa Banker
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Recent Observations

#16

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:53 pm

Aarif wrote:
On one hand you want social reforms and on another hand you don't want to go to bohri gatherings. That's pretty moronic isn't it?
You are mimicking Anajmi's lingo. Just because I support a cause does not mean I want to be a part of it. I support the Palestinian cause as well, but not because I want to go live with them !
Trying to change the community by staying out of the community is like trying to take a bath without using water.
You are contradicting yourself. You just said that it is not possible to challenge the Bohras or debate them while in the Masjid. Being a potted plant in the Masjid is not helping the reformers any but reinforcing the orthodox numbers. Using your own misplaced analogy, by attending the gathering and standing quietly in a corner, you are adding fragrance to the Dai's bathwater.

I don't have a dog in this fight ......

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Recent Observations

#17

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:32 pm

fart is actually a bigger coward than the orthos. No one should take any advise from fart otherwise the world will fall apart. Imaging what would happen if Bush were to say that I support the Iraqis but we don't want to go into Iraq!! Or if Americans were to say that we support the Jews but we won't go into Germany? or if the UN says that they support the Palestinians but they do not want to go into Palestine. If people were to support causes the way fart supports them, all such causes are sure to be doomed.

Fart has a dog, but it would rather not fight. :wink:

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Recent Observations

#18

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:54 pm

Fatwa Banker wrote: You missed the point. My question is what are you and AZ doing there in the first place ? Who would you rather be on a plane full of Anajmis or Dawoodi Bohras ?
FB. i have to agree with you there. all those of reformist bent should stop attending the bohra majlises. leave en masse'. otherwise all that we are doing is carping and whining but still continuing to be a part of the corrupt system. every penny which goes to these corrupt rascals is a penny too much. any talk of reform from within is impossible and from without becomes irrelevant.

as for the answer to your question in the end: NEITHER! :mrgreen:

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Recent Observations

#19

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:27 pm

Fatwa Banker wrote:....by attending the gathering and standing quietly in a corner, you are adding fragrance to the Dai's bathwater.
I like it. :D

Arif, you make some good observations. On the face of it, it would seem they are happy but you only have to scratch the surface to find the truth. It is easy to be fooled by appearances. That said, I'm in general agreement with FB. If people like you - aware and intelligent - are a part of the community and attend these gatherings then by your presence and silence you're endorsing everything that you think is wrong with the community. Please note, I'm not making a moral judgement nor am I talking about you personally - but about the all too prevalent attitude of abject helplessness "Yes, we know all this is wrong, and the royalty is taking the community for a ride etc. etc. but... what can we do?" As my friend bohri says, we are a community that can only bleat "su karsu" and then immediately lines up for slaughter.

Over the years I've seen that the argument "we must bring change from the inside" has become an easy cop-out. Yes, I see great value in bringing change from within, but people who forward this line of action end up doing nothing. They seem to have it both ways, be part of the community and take advantage of the conveniences it offers and at the same time find fault with the system when challenged by reformists. OK, I know of the difficulties and pressures on people who want to bring about change but there has to be some cut-off point for action. The change from within must start at some point, somehow.

What happened in Canada's Mississauga masjid is a good case in point. There was action but all clandestine and behind the scenes. What happened in the end, nothing. I heard that the said Aamil got another 2-year extension. "Frustrated Mumin" had good intentions but wrong tactics. You have to confront the enemy directly and, more importantly, collectively. You can be brave and go it alone but you'll thrown out in no time like a fly from the milk. Collective, organised action is the only way to go. And this can only be done by the so-called "closet reformists". It cannot start from standing in the corner with folded hands. For how long are we going to plead helplessness and invoke family obligations and all that???

Zulfi, I don't agree. Neither it's impossible nor irrelevant. Within and without are two wheels of a cart. Let everybody do their part and we can start to see some change. So for the only action taking place is on the outside, and with one wheel we cannot go very far.

questions
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:11 pm

Re: Recent Observations

#20

Unread post by questions » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:42 pm

Oh no, he got a two year extension - he will milk everyone dry for the new masjid now and become more arrogant now.

Can I just add that I wish Frustrated Mumin would come back to the forum , contribute in whatever way. Please if you are reading this, know that your actions were appreciated and a lot of people in Mississauga were able to relate to what you said and did. The steps you advised were things people could, and am sure have done.

I do think he was 'talked' out on this forum - we should not fight amongst likeminded people. The more we can talk and discuss here, it will give others who are on the fence, something to think about and eventually himmat to act ...

Fatwa Banker
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Recent Observations

#21

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:41 pm

anajmi wrote:I'd rather drive, considering that Al-Qaeda has already taken over American airports.
You oughta fear nothin' as you are most likely on Al-Qaeda's "fly list". :D

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Recent Observations

#22

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:47 pm

humsafar,

as much as i would like to agree with you, from a practical viewpoint "collective organised action by 'closet reformists'" is at this time well-nigh impossible due to the simple fact that even if 10-20 bohras go the amil and declare that they will for eg. not pay unislamic taxes like sabeel, or refuse to pay inflated vajebaat amounts or demand accounts etc.. you know what will happen. they will be first of all told that he the amil is only following orders from vazarat and secondly he will defer to bombay. after much delay and deliberate dilly dallying, they will be told that there is no room for such debates and their requests or demands are denied. meanwhile all their requests for raza, safai chitthi etc will be put on hold, and they will be treated as outcasts and even vilified.

now at this point either other bohras will suddenly work up the guts to join this rebellion or as is our usual wont, they will slink away from this group and avoid them like the plague..'bhai apne su lage valge'. leaving this brave group isolated and vulnerable. this would leave them only 2 choices: go back and apologise, pay up double the amounts, get misak-ofied again and swallow humble pie, or leave and be left to their own devices.

i am not making excuses here for anyone, just pointing out the reality. where the fight could get really interesting is if we had the legal grounds to wrest control of jamaat properties or oust the incumbent jamaat commitee, incl. the amil, or mount a challenge wth relevant tax authorities etc for opening the account books. none of this is possible as total control over all these core management issues is centralised in bombay. these wily crooks have put every safeguard into place for just such an eventuality. as i have said umpteen times before, they have learnt their lessons from udaipur very well and will not allow a repeat of such events where the jamaat properties fell into reformist hands.

unless, there is a big mass movement, which really cripples their collections and causes them extreme embarassment, the kothar holds all the cards, we dont even have the joker in our hand. individually, i can say to them, screw off and walk away, but rallying support and forming a group large enough at this point is well,... you define the odds yrself.

this is supposed to be a constructive debate, not a negative judgement, so please realise that it is not an indictment of anyone's views nor a crticism of the reformists, just an honest assessment of the reality around us.

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Recent Observations

#23

Unread post by Aarif » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:30 pm

FB and Humsafar,
Go and read my first post. I went to bohri masjid after 5 years. I am in no way supporting the crowd by being part of it every now and than.

But, however, I would agree with accountability that I should go more often and try to find like minded people who are willing to do something concrete. The biggest reason for failure of reform movement is that the reformists have isolated themselves from the main stream. The reason I started this thread is to make a point that the bohra community does not give a damn about bringing any reform in the community. I am saying this so confidently because I did not see any change after 5 years. For me everything looked the same as it was before 5 years. Honestly, the reformists do not have a powerful presence anywhere except Udaipur which makes the reform movement a one town wonder. The solution of keeping out from community that you are suggesting is not possible if you want to remain a dawoodi bohra. E.g. if you want to marry another dawoodi bohra you have to give misaq, pay your dues, go to kothar etc. If someone dies in your family than the same procedure. If you don't want to do all this you join the reformists and if you do that than you do not matter much because anyways reformists are not considered part of the community. And honestly this isolation technique seems to be a real cause of failure of reform movement... You cannot bring reforms by staying at home. You have to go and mix with the crowd to make your point. Gandhi had to come to India to fight for India's freedom. Do you think he could have done that sitting in South Africa??

Let's cut the crap and get realistic because this time when I went to the masjid and show the same bohraism that I have been seeing ever since I was a kid it made my reformist mind feel like a frog in a well

Aarif
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Re: Recent Observations

#24

Unread post by Aarif » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:34 pm

And just so that you guys know, I was not standing quietly in the corner. I think that was AZ's comment. I did try to talk to as many people as I could, and after talking to them felt that bohras are still the same everywhere whether it is India or USA...

Aarif
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Re: Recent Observations

#25

Unread post by Aarif » Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:10 pm

What happened in Canada's Mississauga masjid is a good case in point. There was action but all clandestine and behind the scenes. What happened in the end, nothing. I heard that the said Aamil got another 2-year extension.
Well, if you see from another angle than it is one more lost battle for reformist minded people. And in fact it proves my point that nothing has changed in our community. There might be few people who want to bring about reforms but the majority does not care... Because if they would have, than by now we would have seen the results...

Humsafar
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Re: Recent Observations

#26

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:30 pm

Zulfi, you are over-analysing. It's possible that the scenarios you are conjuring up may actually happen, so what? There will be setbacks and failures, the fight against power is never easy. Unless people start doing something and fail, and try again and fail again, success will never come their way. Look at the history of any freedom movement, victory was never had at on fell swoop. It takes time, sacrifices and long term commitment. Do "closet-reformists" have what it takes to fight the system? That is the question to be asked. My hope is that talking about it - here and elsewhere - will ultimately lead to some action. The thirst for liberty and dignity is innate to humans.

Arif, nobody is talking crap here, we're all expressing our points of view. As for "boharism" since your childhood, it has actually worsened. And the failure is not of the reform movement (we would not be having this conversation without it), the failure is on part of the people who have chosen to remain on the inside and are doing nothing. Yes, for most parts, the reform movement has stagnated as "one town wonder", which is sad, and symbolises the Bohra mentality that despite having a successful example of how the Kothar can be challenged they do nothing.

Aarif
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Recent Observations

#27

Unread post by Aarif » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:48 pm

As for "boharism" since your childhood, it has actually worsened.
Precisely!! And if you look from another angle people are not that dis-satisfied or dis-gruntled... And that's exactly the point I am trying to make. That was precisely my observation. Nothing has changed...

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Recent Observations

#28

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:03 pm

hums,

am i over analysing or are you over trivialising? we have been down this road before. arif is right, sitting on the sidelines and exhorting closet reformists to rise in defiance is easy when you are not in it. i have said this dozens of times before and repeated it also in the post above, please read it again carefully. the udaipur experiment cannot be repeated, the kothar has plugged all the holes. u seem to side-step that issue everytime. all those examples of past revolutions were of political and social nature. when religion is involved and the power hungry clergy start invoking divine sanctions, it is very hard to fight it. even the protestants had to split as the pope and his clergy were in no mood to compromise.

i am not interested in bickering with my local amil over minor things like his insulting talk or reducing my tax bill. what i am interested in is going after the big ticket items where it hurts their pocket and the power of the establishment's hq. if i see some legal loophole where i can challenge the committee or cut off their source of power and take control of what is rightfully ours. i will plunge into it with all gusto and bring atleast 20-30 others with me. we have a pretty substantial group of well connected people here who are not fools, they are aware of the legalities involved. but sadly all those options which were available to the udapuris have all been eliminated. besides, we do not have the huge finances to engage astute lawyers which the kothar can.

on one hand you never lose any opportunity to heap scorn on ineffectual and cowardly closet reformists, and then on the other hand you talk of how a revolution cannnot progress only on one wheel and how important the 'insiders' are. decide what is important first. yes, without the outside and open reformists we would have not this forum, but if you want to set an example of how a revolution is begun and run, get yrself and all yr brave fellow reformists to re-join and combine efforts with us. any revolution can only ever succeed from within. if you sympathise with us and want to encourage us, then come back into the fold, take the same crap that insiders are taking and then raise your head. by sitting outside the arena and constantly criticising the insiders, you are only alienating those who wish to do more but whose hands are tied by elaborate strategies that the rascals have put in place. many of these people are not wimps, and have bravely left the jamaat but have not joined the reformists.

even i went to an ashura vaez after several years. everyone down from the amil to the jamaat committe knows that, but do i care? they know that any strong arm tactics on their part and someone like me will gladly tell them 'up yours' and walk. so i am neither adding to their numbers nor am i standing there 'hands folded', deprecatory words which you have deliberately inserted to malign us.

unless open reformists like you dont lose their superiority complex and holier-than-thou attitude, how can those who are suffering show any solidarity with our common causes?

Aarif
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Recent Observations

#29

Unread post by Aarif » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:03 pm

And to add to that, if we want to bring about changes in our community we will have to stay inside and make an effort. So what if people are not doing it right now. As you have mentioned we have to start somewhere. And my point is you cannot start anything by running away from reality... If you want to bring change you have to stay in the community and do it...

Humsafar
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Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Recent Observations

#30

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:04 pm

Zulfi, Did I touch a raw nerve somewhere? Why must everything be taken personally, nobody is questioning your actions nor is there any need to justify them. I'm sorry if my comments come across as scornful, that was not my intention.

I never said repeat the "udaipur experiment". Small ticket or big ticket, it doesn't matter, all I'm saying is that something must be done when all talking is done. We all must choose our battles, if legal loopholes catch your fancy then that's good. We must fight them on all fronts, every little bit counts.

We reformists are not sitting on the sidelines, in Udaipur we are in the fray right up to our necks - taking on the Kothar every step of the way, every day. And nobody is inciting "closet reformists" - I entered this conversation because of the constant "su karsu" refrain one is tired of hearing: "we're fed up but what can we do." All I'm saying is that don't feel so helpless - do something. Yes, it's not easy, it never is. As for joining the fold, we wanted to in 1999 when the Sayedna came to Udaipur after a long gap, but we wanted to do it on our own terms - accountability, no-raza, no-misaaq etc. Obviously, it was not acceptable to them. Joining the fold just like that is not feasible. It would be foolish to throw away the hard-won liberties, jamaat properties etc. for which we have sacrificed so much for so many years. But who knows, such a thing may come to pass after all. So long as reformists are able to hold on to community properties in Udaipur they are fine, but once they start losing them to the orthodox (what with all the legal battles now going on) the reformists will have no choice but to join the fold.... and continue their fight. Then again, in such an event the gains and reforms will be limited to Udaipur only. That is why I've always been saying that every jamaat will have to fight its own fight. One "reformed" jamaat can only inspire and indirectly help, but can't bring about "revolution" in another jamaat.

Arif, if "people are not that dis-satisfied or dis-gruntled", good for them. But we are talking about people who ARE disgruntled and have chosen to remain inside. We're talking about their role and their efforts.