Open question to Syedna followers

[Aarif]

To haqqun nafs, guy_sam2005, aziz, admirer and all other supporters of Syedna on this forum. I have been reading your posts since last few days. It seems that you people are thouroughly convinced that there is nothing seriously wrong with the way our community affairs are managed by kothar and syedna. This conclusion stems from your strong faith in the present Dai. On the other hand the reformists believe that Syedna is taking the community for a ride by duping his blind and gullible followers. The reformists have tried to base their arguments on certain facts and findings which indicate that there is corruption and other genuine religious problems in our community. You guys have dismissed all these arguments by categorizing them as baseless and fairy tales. You have criticized the reformists by saying that they are spitting out all this venom because of their personal hatred towards the Dai.

Hence, I have a very honest question for all syedna followers visiting this site. What neccessary and sufficient proof will convince you guys that there are serious problems with the way our community affairs are managed by Syedna and his appointed clergy? And if that proof is presented to you, will you accept the reality? If not why? Please frankly express your opinions and be honest to yourselves while answering these questions.

[haqqun nafs]

To haqqun nafs, guy_sam2005, aziz, admirer and all other supporters of Syedna on this forum. I have been reading your posts since last few days. It seems that you people are thouroughly convinced that there is nothing seriously wrong with the way our community affairs are managed by kothar and syedna. This conclusion stems from your strong faith in the present Dai. On the other hand the reformists believe that Syedna is taking the community for a ride by duping his blind and gullible followers. The reformists have tried to base their arguments on certain facts and findings which indicate that there is corruption and other genuine religious problems in our community. You guys have dismissed all these arguments by categorizing them as baseless and fairy tales. You have criticized the reformists by saying that they are spitting out all this venom because of their personal hatred towards the Dai.

Hence, I have a very honest question for all syedna followers visiting this site. What neccessary and sufficient proof will convince you guys that there are serious problems with the way our community affairs are managed by Syedna and his appointed clergy? And if that proof is presented to you, will you accept the reality? If not why? Please frankly express your opinions and be honest to yourselves while answering these questions.

ok lemme cross question you...do you agree abu bakar,usmaan and umar where rightly khalifa and they did all khilafat with rightfullness and curroption free tho Muhammed and Ali where present there.you need to understand simple fact all DB are not angels and all kothari or BS are not angels and sin less few are less and few are more,that doest mean u blame to syedna,as we cant blame for the curroption did by awwal sani saalis in the presense of Muhammed and Ali.

in short use your commonsense and read more about islamic history you wont need to ask any question to any DB

[guy_sam2005]

aarif,
MOst of the accustaions here are baseless.i gave some genuine cases but these guys found fault with those too.and i feel that some are plain jealous some hate to the core and some here have other motives .......
there are some flaws in religion till monetary things are concerned agreed...now bein practical tell me where there is money will corruption stay far..thats human nature that has existed since ages.
syedna has brought this community to a different level in everythin from lifestyle,religion,confidence and self belief.and modifications are made day to day in feilds like technology and health.
interest free loans are freely available irrespective of amount,housing schemes are in full swing everywhere.
sajda 2 rakats and all is a quetion of personal choice...just to show dai in bad picture these guys are equating hi to allah.which is nowhere near truth or anyones belief.
i am still to hear 1 accusation which is atleat somewhere near truth........i only see accustaions out of figment of imagination....

[Aarif]

HN and GS,

Thanks for your replies. However, you guys have not yet answered my main question. What proof or evidence will convince you of the ongoing corruption and problems in our community? And if someone provides you with that proof will you beleive in it or reject it?

[haqqun nafs]

HN and GS,

Thanks for your replies. However, you guys have not yet answered my main question. What proof or evidence will convince you of the ongoing corruption and problems in our community? And if someone provides you with that proof will you beleive in it or reject it?

no body (specially my self) deny curroption in community coz it is bond to happen when millions and billions are involved that is why i gave the example of prophet him self and the situation of his time,so do you blame prophet for those curroption?

[anajmi]

haggun nuts,

The khilafat of Hazrat Abu Bakr began after the Prophet Muhammad passed away. So if there was corruption during his khilafat, it cannot be blamed on the Prophet as he was gone. Hazrat Ali was not in a leadership position, he was an advocate. So you cannot blame him for any corruption either. However, the Syedna is present and the dumb orthos proclaim him to be "ghaib na jaankar". So if corruption is happening under his rule and under his very nose, when he is supposed to be "ghaib na jaankar", then it is easy to figure out that your Syedna is involved with the corruption, except if you are a dumb ortho, which you are.

[Aarif]

no body (specially my self) deny curroption in community coz it is bond to happen when millions and billions are involved that is why i gave the example of prophet him self and the situation of his time,so do you blame prophet for those curroption?

HN,
I appreciate your acknowledgement that there is corruption in our community. However, let's go down a bit further on this road. According to reformists the level of corruption in our community is extremely high and has reached the pot boiling point. on the other hand according to you guys there is some basic corruption in our community which is obvious given the amount of money involved. Please try to understand my point out here because there is a suttle difference between two thought streams. When the corruption in a community is extremely high (which the reformists beleive is the case in our community) than obviously the responsibility of controlling this corruption falls upon the leader of the community. In this case you cannot claim that it is a minor thing and Syedna is not aware of these shady details. The reformists believe that the Syedna is well aware of these corrupt practices and is definitely involved in them. When things are too obvious to be ignored you cannot claim innocence and fool people.

Let me rephrase my question to clarify my point. What proof or evidence will convince you guys that there is extreme corruption and other serious problems like the way Islam is followed, in our community, AS THE REFORMISTS BELIEVE?

I hope you get my point. Now please answer my question.

[haqqun nafs]

haggun nuts,

The khilafat of Hazrat Abu Bakr began after the Prophet Muhammad passed away. So if there was corruption during his khilafat, it cannot be blamed on the Prophet as he was gone. Hazrat Ali was not in a leadership position, he was an advocate. So you cannot blame him for any corruption either. However, the Syedna is present and the dumb orthos proclaim him to be "ghaib na jaankar". So if corruption is happening under his rule and under his very nose, when he is supposed to be "ghaib na jaankar", then it is easy to figure out that your Syedna is involved with the corruption, except if you are a dumb ortho, which you are.

this shows how shallow is your islamic knowledge,mardud awwal did curroption even in the time of prophet and every thing was happening in the presence of Muhammed(saw) himself,even they tried to kill muhammed(saw) but rasullullah kept silence for hiqmah.

[Safiuddin]

aarif,

Don't waste your energy trying to educate these folks.
If they were to allow themselves to see the reality of Burhanuddin's corrupt regime, or acknowledge the shameless behavior of his zaadas and his family, and the fleecing of millions of people, they would have to abandon the only social network they have. This cult allows them to mingle with others who think like them and allows them to have some sense of identity. Given the amount of immaturity and lack of higher education in this community, these people need this cult to help define who they are - just as prehistoric man needed symbols and rituals to help himself (or herself0 understand his existence.
I know a plethora of bohris who are insecure, easily manipulated, and gullible. They won't easily let go of what they perceive to be the right path as delineated by Burhanuddin, Inc.

[mumin]

corruption can be controlled if transparency is practised. Even in small jamaats of .u.s.a. big sabil amounts are collected for the welfare of the small jamaat but the jamaat committeer refuses to give account of where the money is being spent. most of the collection goes in holding meetings in fancy restaurants by the jamat committee. This is not religion. No good is being done. A few cronies come out of the woods collecting money and enjoying themselves which they could never afford to do at their expense.

[Al Zulfiqar]

HN and GS,

Thanks for your replies. However, you guys have not yet answered my main question. What proof or evidence will convince you of the ongoing corruption and problems in our community? And if someone provides you with that proof will you beleive in it or reject it?

arif, your intentions may be right, but your question isnt.

the abde khaal donors and ad nauseum chest beaters have no problem acknowledging that corruption and problems exist and is well and thriving in our community. what they are determined not to accept, come hell or high water, is that any of that goo should stick on the syedna and his family and the blame for it be laid at their door.

they can accept blindly that syedna can see into the future is fine, that he can see the unseen is fine, that he can send out telepathic messages to his believers and save their lives 20,000 miles away is fine, that he can perform miracles like eisa nabee is fine, that he can heal impossible medical cases is fine, but what they cannot absolutely accept is that the same miracle man with such divine powers cannot see the corruption, fraud and embezzlement of money to the tune of thousands of crores going on under his nose and that most of the recent new taxes, which are basically very innovative ways to deprive bohras of their money, the instructions for that do not come from the very top.

they want to have it both ways. he is divine and can see the unseen when it suits them one way and he cannot see anything as he is old and weak when it suits them the other way.

whether he can see anything or not, one thing is clear; the abdes on this forum are blind and closed minded. we are wasting our time on these complete fools, immature, ignorant, rude and arrogant products of the mindset drummed into their heads. i for one, do not want to waste anymore of my time debating subjects akin to quantum physics to a bunch of retards with an IQ of 32. they are way beneath us and should be ignored.

[anajmi]

haggun nuts,

First thing, neither the Prophet Muhammad nor Hazrat Ali ever claimed to be "ghaib naa jaankar" like your Dai does. Besides, those that were corrupt during the time of the prophet had been identified and forbidden to participate in the Islamic affairs even though they were allowed to attend the mosque for prayers. They were known as the Munafiqs. Your Dai is a munafiq.

even they tried to kill muhammed(saw) but rasullullah kept silence for hiqmah.

The people who tried to kill the Prophet wasn't Hazrat Abu Bakr. Infact, when the Prophet escaped from Mecca, he was accompanied by Hazrat Abu Bakr. The people who tried to kill the Prophet were exposed and defeated. Your Dai is silent not because of hiqmah but because he is the leader of the corrupt.

[guy_sam2005]

HN and GS,

Thanks for your replies. However, you guys have not yet answered my main question. What proof or evidence will convince you of the ongoing corruption and problems in our community? And if someone provides you with that proof will you beleive in it or reject it?

i dont need proof for corruption..i know it exists but not on the top level..............

[guy_sam2005]

id request saifuddin to have some respect atleast for moula's age.if u dont want to address him syedna ok.atleast address mr. or saheb.its just a request.foloowin ur wish,
aarif,
You dont have to give any proof for corruption.we are very aware of it. though its not as big as these guys claim.they just keep raising voice cause some of the bosses are here more interested in their share ..i mean they want a part of monetary gain................
and the solution is still very simple..start ur own community..you dont accept him as ur dai anyways so why bother with whet he is doin..i really dont understand.

[Smart]

id request saifuddin to have some respect atleast for moula's age.if u dont want to address him syedna ok.atleast address mr. or saheb.its just a request.foloowin ur wish,
aarif,
You dont have to give any proof for corruption.we are very aware of it. though its not as big as these guys claim.they just keep raising voice cause some of the bosses are here more interested in their share ..i mean they want a part of monetary gain................
and the solution is still very simple..start ur own community..you dont accept him as ur dai anyways so why bother with whet he is doin..i really dont understand.

Respect is commanded, not demanded. the action of the Syedna and his cohorts do not create conditions to command respect.

You really don't understand because:
1. You are not interested in understanding the truth. You can wake up a sleeping man, but not a man pretending to sleep.
2. Another reason would be that you have a sub-prime intelligence, so such obvious truths are beyond your comprehension.
3. You are from amongst the exploiters, so it is in your interest to deny the truth.

Go ahead and pick your choice.

[ghulam muhammed]

One very simple and direct question to the abdes :-

Is Burhanudin saab aware of the corruption and loot going on in the community and that the loot operation is orchestrated by his own family members especially his own sons ? Is he or Isnt he aware ?

I think this is a very simple question for which there should be a straight and simple answer. Now please respond.

[S. Insaf]

Sayedna Burhanuddin Saheb was an eyewitness:
1) When I was beaten up in Badri Mahal.
2) He was one caught illegally transferring 65 thousand shilling from Tanzania and expelled.
3) When the innocent Bohra women of Udaipur were molestated and dishonoured at Galiyakot Dargah.
4) When 4 prominent Ustads of Jamiyah were beaten up at Surat he was vwey much in Surat.
5) He was with his father when foundation stone of fake “Saifee Golden Jubilee Technological Institute was led down by the President of India in the presence of high government dignitaries. He was the one sold of the Community Trust land.
6) He was in the same air-craft from Indore in which Dr. Asghar Ali was assaulted and he was the one who blamed Asghar Ali assaulting him and organised a world-wide protest.

List is very long

[admirer]

Aarif,

I have always said that corruption does exist. In some jamaats it is very wide spread and open, in some it is not. But having said that, it doesn't mean that we would start dis respecting our dai and abusing him.

If you are a logical person, you would have understood that reform -- and let me very clearly state "Bohra Youth" movement -- is just about Syedna's hatred.
The likes of OMA, AZ, INSAF, GM make fun of all rituals, maatam, salaat etc. They claim that this didn't happen in previous dai's era. C'mon what's the proof? Did they live in those times.

Reforming a society is a complete different thing. If they are so filled with despise and hatred for our dai, they are free to leave. Who on earth has given them the onus of reforming the community and WHY?

I believe reform begins at a personal level. I know of many people who have raised their voice against exorbitant zakaats and have settled matters without any hue and cry. The progs say that Dai is Ghaib na malik and so should know everything. It is an abstract statement. And yes, Moula knows everything, so what should he do? Go to each and every jamaat and check for himself? Would a PM or CM or for that matter a company's manager do that.

There are lot of things our Moula TUS has done for the upliftment of the community, but that is never seen and if seen always a reason is given to ridicule it.

And as far as ghaib na malik and all is considered, i'll give you an example.. In Moula's waaz some security guards sometimes treat mumineen very badly. Moula openly and very humbly said in one waaz ( i don't recall when it was, may be last year) that mumineen should be respected and not treated badly..
For a fact, I know this thing would be made fun of in the subsequent posts.

But why I am telling you this? It's because you genuinely made an effort to ask a question without resorting to abuse.

And what proofs and evidences you talking about. Whether or not you produce them, it is insignificant. I know about figures of corruption in certain jamaats. but what could anyone do, if an amil or in some cases the secretary is corrupt. Should Moula be expected to come with a stick and beat all of them..

And as far as this huge ruccus about money is concerned, let me ask how honest are these progs? If they have so many problems, go make a new firqa. Isn't it practical? But they won't go.. why ? because they won't have any identity left ? What would they be called? and besides they would lose all the control on the masjids and properties that belong to 'dawoodi bohra'. So here they are helpless and always whining.

According to me, following a religion is a very personal choice, but no one has the right to make fun of the other person's beliefs.

Would these so called educated progs go and make fun of hindus who to idol worship or parsis who have peculiar burial systems. I am sure most of the times progs would come across as the most liberal and friendly guys with no bias against religion. Then why on earth curse us and our dai?

[SBM]

The likes of OMA, AZ, INSAF, GM make fun of all rituals, maatam, salaat etc. They claim that this didn't happen in previous dai's era. C'mon what's the proof? Did they live in those times.

+
Ad--err
Since my name was mentioned, let me be clear, I nor any one else made fun of Mataam and Salaat, Everyone I know said those innovation of having Maatam after every Fard Namaz-during Eid-wedding and every occasion and having 2 Rakat for Syenda was not there before the current Syenda took power and yes it can be verified,, If you really wanted the truth you could have asked your parents or grand parents about these new innovation OH I FORGOT YOU DID NOT GET RAZA FROM YOUR AAMIL TO ASK YOUR PARENTS OR GRAND PARENTS.

[ghulam muhammed]

it is insignificant. I know about figures of corruption in certain jamaats. but what could anyone do, if an amil or in some cases the secretary is corrupt. Should Moula be expected to come with a stick and beat all of them..

O.K. He cant beat the amil or the secretary but what about his own family members and especially his sons who are the masterminds of this extortion and corruption ? If not as a dai (like how you say) but as a father, cant he take some strict measures to put an end to this corruption? Remember that no amil or an ordinary jamaat member has the guts to play with daawat money unless and until it has the sanction of either the dai or his sons who are the ones who have the remote control.

And as far as this huge ruccus about money is concerned, let me ask how honest are these progs?

O.K. So for argument sake we presume that progs are dishonest but then "Do two wrongs make one right" ?

they would lose all the control on the masjids and properties that belong to 'dawoodi bohra'.

A Correction.... The Masjids and properties dont belong to "dawoodi bohras" but to the "dai" because unless and until the title of the masjid is not transferred in the name of Burhanudin saab, it has no religous sanctity as per the current bohra beliefs and no abde will offer namaz in that masjid.

According to me, following a religion is a very personal choice, but no one has the right to make fun of the other person's beliefs.

I fully agree that following a religion is ones personal choice but your contention that people only make fun of other's belief is totally wrong because the progs only highlight the evils or unislamic activities in our community but if no matter how hard one tries to put it in a serious way it turns out to be funny because of the acts itself.

[SBM]

Ad--err
Here are the links from Mid-Day newspaper. Are you telling us that Syedna or his Sons do not know about this scandal:

Who will probe the Syedna grandnephew http://www.mid-day.com/news/2004/dec/99373.htm
2004-12-15
Syedna's kin isn't playing ball: Cops http://www.mid-day.com/news/2004/dec/99373.htm
2004-12-10
Cops suspect kidnap theory of Syedna kin http://www.mid-day.com/news/2004/nov/98226.htm
2004-11-30
Syedna's grandnephew missing with cash http://www.mid-day.com/news/2004/nov/97833.htm
2004-11-25

[SBM]

More articles from Mid Day, If they treat their own family members like they treated Taizoon Shakir, what can you say about the ordinary Bohra who complains and, who does he/she can complain to? Easy for you guys (literal meaning) to say that things are taken care (yes they are by the Goons)

Split in Bohra spiritual family
By: Ahmar Mustikhan
May 9, 2003
http://www.mid-day.com/news/city/2003/may/52282.htm

Battle over Syedna succession rages
By: Manoj Nair
May 9, 2003
http://www.mid-day.com/news/city/2003/may/52280.htm

[SBM]

i dont need proof for corruption..i know it exists but not on the top level.......

Guy
With the above links from Mid-Day, simple question, is Syedna's Grand nephew is considered a top level or not. We all know they are considered as Qasr-e-Aali (top tiered) so do you take back your statement that corruption is not on the top level
what more proofs do you need. You have not provided any proof or reason why Syedna had nexus with Modi as you promised and with the list of other question like Quantifying the Charity Care at Saifee Hospital I asked.
Please do not run away or start lanaat on me.

['sauga dude]

Aarif,

I believe reform begins at a personal level. I know of many people who have raised their voice against exorbitant zakaats and have settled matters without any hue and cry. The progs say that Dai is Ghaib na malik and so should know everything. It is an abstract statement. And yes, Moula knows everything, so what should he do? Go to each and every jamaat and check for himself? Would a PM or CM or for that matter a company's manager do that.

And what proofs and evidences you talking about. Whether or not you produce them, it is insignificant. I know about figures of corruption in certain jamaats. but what could anyone do, if an amil or in some cases the secretary is corrupt. Should Moula be expected to come with a stick and beat all of them..

Assalam aleykum,

There are many examples on this forum of the arrogant and corrupt practices of the Amil of Missisauga, Canada. What has the kothar done about that? Nothing! Instead, when the Shazada Idris Bhaisaheb came to Toronto, he gave a shawl to the Amil and congratulated him on his good work.

You say that moulana knows everything. If he knows of how the mumineen of Missisauga are suffering under the corrupt practices of this Amil, why is the Dai or his son not doing anything about it?

[Maqbool]

many people who have raised their voice against exorbitant zakaats and have settled matters without any hue and cry.

Will you please clarify why a dignified person should to raise a voice against exorbitant Zakat!! Does not this clears that it is imposed against their will and that is why they have to settle!!

And yes, Moula knows everything, so what should he do? Go to each and every jamaat and check for himself? Would a PM or CM or for that matter a company's manager do that.

When moula knows that the crook Sayedul kher has looted the mumnins of Chennai, why he has sent him again? Even again when he has been removed from his second term, why he is still in the service. He has not accepted the Amalat of Jamnagar even ordered by Sayedna. Can any ordinary mumenin can venture to neglect the order of Sayedna!

In case of PM and CM the person caught red handed wold have been taken to court of law and wold have not been raised to the level the crooks are elevated in sayednas kingdom.

[mumin]

these abde's example is like the one time queen of France. The citizens complained to the queen that there was no bread for the people because of high taxes. The queen's reply was "let them eat cake". A big revolution came in
france and there was no queen. The abde's are blindfolded.
they are unaware that the progressives are increasing by leaps and bounds through out the world.I would not be surprized if a religious revolution took place and sincerity and honesty was once again restored in religion.






















'

[like_minded]

And yes, Moula knows everything, so what should he do? Go to each and every jamaat and check for himself?


The least expected of Moula is to come out in public and admit that he isn't a mozija master, that he cannot guarantee a place in heaven for his followers, that he is an ordinary man like anybody else, that every human being is indeed spiritual, all he has to do is look within, that all the hype created to glorify him is just a hype and not real but lies.

Now tell me, can he do that? because if he's really a well wisher of this community, then he should have no problems in admitting this truth. The day he admits this truth, I am sure all the corruption in this community will automatically vanish.

[guy_sam2005]

The likes of OMA, AZ, INSAF, GM make fun of all rituals, maatam, salaat etc. They claim that this didn't happen in previous dai's era. C'mon what's the proof? Did they live in those times.

+
Ad--err
Since my name was mentioned, let me be clear, I nor any one else made fun of Mataam and Salaat, Everyone I know said those innovation of having Maatam after every Fard Namaz-during Eid-wedding and every occasion and having 2 Rakat for Syenda was not there before the current Syenda took power and yes it can be verified,, If you really wanted the truth you could have asked your parents or grand parents about these new innovation OH I FORGOT YOU DID NOT GET RAZA FROM YOUR AAMIL TO ASK YOUR PARENTS OR GRAND PARENTS.

yea mataam was not so common..so were not many evils of world.small eg like mobile,internet,terrorism,easy access to sex etc.
today we are very organised in all aspects .be it home or business or dressing.we have our separate identity .our e-jamaat cards work as our pasports in countries lik dubai.the designer ridas that we have been wearing since years doesnt fall in the cateogory the world wants to ban now..yea yea ull still find lopholes where there are none..some of u wanted too see moula performin chelum vaaz.hope u saw it it zen.malumaat.now ull have flaws there too.

[guy_sam2005]

i dont need proof for corruption..i know it exists but not on the top level.......

Guy
With the above links from Mid-Day, simple question, is Syedna's Grand nephew is considered a top level or not. We all know they are considered as Qasr-e-Aali (top tiered) so do you take back your statement that corruption is not on the top level
what more proofs do you need. You have not provided any proof or reason why Syedna had nexus with Modi as you promised and with the list of other question like Quantifying the Charity Care at Saifee Hospital I asked.
Please do not run away or start lanaat on me.

i am not running away..i dont do lanaat n all on anyone in your group other than a.e.
i told already saifee hospital i dont know.modi dont wanna say.as u guys will do post portem and give a false report.thats where your guys speciality is.
anyways from the news article nothin is proved.it has 1000 different angles...

[guy_sam2005]

And yes, Moula knows everything, so what should he do? Go to each and every jamaat and check for himself?


The least expected of Moula is to come out in public and admit that he isn't a mozija master, that he cannot guarantee a place in heaven for his followers, that he is an ordinary man like anybody else, that every human being is indeed spiritual, all he has to do is look within, that all the hype created to glorify him is just a hype and not real but lies.

Now tell me, can he do that? because if he's really a well wisher of this community, then he should have no problems in admitting this truth. The day he admits this truth, I am sure all the corruption in this community will automatically vanish.

no he cant...ok he is corrupt,shezadas are corrupt,we all abdes are fools and sheeps....good accepted..you are a very intelligent person with great indepth knowledge of islam .u know wat quran is.and have a map 4 way to heaven ..great i accept..
but then why are you still bothered bout syedna and his sheep..let them drown..save yourself dude.......lets hear about your community.........tell me something good about your community and not bad bout mine friend