views on dhadi n topi

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
anajmi
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#121

Unread post by anajmi » Wed May 12, 2010 9:41 pm

Well, we are born with genes to grow facial hair at an age when we can think freely for ourselves. His will is for grown men to look like the prophet and not babies. He wants us to look like the prophet, but then he has also given us free will to see if we will obey his commands or not. Our minds become free right at the time when facial hair starts to appear on our faces. Allah wants to see what we choose at that age.

I saw this movie recently called "Meet the Spartans". In that movie, leonidas is born with a beard. Pretty funny.

Human
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#122

Unread post by Human » Wed May 12, 2010 10:04 pm

anajmi wrote:Right!!! Some guy has a beard and consumes alcohol so I shouldn't grow a beard. I couldn'tve heard a better argument against growing a beard than that gem.
Lying is alright, interst is alright, sometimes consuming alcohol is alright
huh!! Did I say all that is alright? Creating straw man arguments? Running out of real arguments already?
Mc Donalds hamburger is alright
No it is not. It is haraam. I don't eat it and no one in my family does. But that guy with the beard eats it, so I shouldn't grow a beard. Great argument.
anajmi,
Gee, how you fail to understand my argument! I thought you were better than that. Maybe its a result of befriending the likes of rania (hades/danish).
Now, I wasn't trying to say that don't grow beard because people with beards drink alcohol, etc. I was trying to tell how the beard farce is a big agenda and other things aren't. How in a community gathering if there's a person with a long beard (who drinks alcohol, gambles, etc) is looked upon to be a more of a religious person than a clean shaven guy (who does his namaaz regularly, reads quran and never does anything haram). Do you need more explanation?
As far as running out of arguments goes, I've already admitted that I wouldn't be able to beat you in a debate.

anajmi
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#123

Unread post by anajmi » Wed May 12, 2010 10:15 pm

How in a community gathering if there's a person with a long beard (who drinks alcohol, gambles, etc) is looked upon to be a more of a religious person than a clean shaven guy (who does his namaaz regularly, reads quran and never does anything haram). Do you need more explanation?
Well, you are probably going to the wrong kind of gatherings. The gatherings that I go to, people with long beards do not drink alcohol or gamble. They pray namaz regularly, read Quran, give zakat etc. I know a lot of people who do not keep a beard and are still good muslims. Besides, there are always exceptions. I know a few people who are not practicing muslims, do not know anything about Islam and will still argue about the tenets of Islam. Do you need more explanation?

Smart
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#124

Unread post by Smart » Wed May 12, 2010 10:43 pm

^
Looking at all the arguments in favour of the beard, I have come to the conclusion that the syedna was right in felicitating Narendra Modi. It is the facial hair that matters, everything else is secondary.

Conscíous
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#125

Unread post by Conscíous » Wed May 12, 2010 10:50 pm

anajmi wrote:Well, we are born with genes to grow facial hair at an age when we can think freely for ourselves.
I believe, we "think more freely" when we are infants/babies and more likely that our minds become cloud/imprisoned the older we get..
anajmi wrote:His will is for grown men to look like the prophet and not babies. he wants us to look like the prophet,
If it was Allah's will that we look alike, why did he create each & every one of us unique??

Allah has created absolutely everything unique in the whole universe. And He must have done that for a very good reason..

anajmi wrote:Our minds become free right at the time when facial hair starts to appear on our faces.
I beleive in the opposite..
anajmi wrote:Allah wants to see what we choose at that age.
I'm sure Allah has better ways of knowing.. then measuring my faith, by my facial hair..

anajmi
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#126

Unread post by anajmi » Wed May 12, 2010 11:22 pm

I believe, we "think more freely" when we are infants/babies and more likely that our minds become cloud/imprisoned the older we get..
I am not too sure about that. A 30 year old man with the brain of child isn't referred to as "being able to think more freely". There is a reason laws prohibit children below a certain age from working. The chances that they might get exploited are very high and where they do work in sweat shops, they are exploited.
If it was Allah's will that we look alike, why did he create each & every one of us unique??
We are not all unique. We are all humans with the exact same anatomy. 2 legs, 2 hands, 1 mouth, 1 nose etc etc. People who grow beards do not look alike. If you cannot recognize one bearded person from another, then you should get your eyes examined.
Allah has created absolutely everything unique in the whole universe. And He must have done that for a very good reason..
Yes. See, all trees have green leaves. I have never heard a tree complaining that since Allah has created the trees as unique why should I grow green leaves like every other tree? Nor have I heard other planets complaining that they shouldn't be revolving around the sun because they are created unique. A pretty lame argument I should add.
I beleive in the opposite..
Well, obviously you do, otherwise why would we be debating? People believe in different things. I am just trying to show that your beliefs are idiotic.
I'm sure Allah has better ways of knowing.. then measuring my faith, by my facial hair..
Obviously he does. Facial hair is just one aspect. He isn't concerned about your facial hair, but you seem to be concerned about other people's facial hair more than anything else. And hence here we are!!

anajmi
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#127

Unread post by anajmi » Wed May 12, 2010 11:25 pm

Smart,
Looking at all the arguments in favour of the beard, I have come to the conclusion that the syedna was right in felicitating Narendra Modi. It is the facial hair that matters, everything else is secondary.
Not a very smart conclusion. I thought you were supposed to be Smart!!

anajmi
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#128

Unread post by anajmi » Wed May 12, 2010 11:49 pm

boom,
I'm sure Allah has better ways of knowing.. then measuring my faith, by my facial hair..
Just to expand on this point a little bit.. Yes Allah has a lot of ways of knowing. Allah will see if you pray salaah regularly, fast during ramadan, believe in the Quran as the word of Allah, pay zakat etc etc. Most people who argue against the beard, do none of these either. This is my well educated assumption. I may be wrong.

So in your case boom, which other ways does Allah have about knowing your faith? Do you pray regularly, fast, give zakaat etc? Now, the chances are that you will not give a yes or no reply to this question. You will attack me, attach the Sunnah of the prophet etc. Hopefully, you will prove me wrong.

Conscíous
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#129

Unread post by Conscíous » Thu May 13, 2010 12:10 am

anajmi wrote:boom,
I'm sure Allah has better ways of knowing.. then measuring my faith, by my facial hair..
Just to expand on this point a little bit.. Yes Allah has a lot of ways of knowing. Allah will see if you pray salaah regularly, fast during ramadan, believe in the Quran as the word of Allah, pay zakat etc etc. Most people who argue against the beard, do none of these either. This is my well educated assumption. I may be wrong.

So in your case boom, which other ways does Allah have about knowing your faith? Do you pray regularly, fast, give zakaat etc? Now, the chances are that you will not give a yes or no reply to this question. You will attack me, attach the Sunnah of the prophet etc. Hopefully, you will prove me wrong.
anajmi,
I will not do anything, apart from wishing you and everyone here a very good night.. I'll answer tomorrow ok..

cheers..

anajmi
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#130

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 13, 2010 12:29 am

I'll be waiting.

Human
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#131

Unread post by Human » Thu May 13, 2010 12:42 am

anajmi wrote: Well, you are probably going to the wrong kind of gatherings. The gatherings that I go to, people with long beards do not drink alcohol or gamble. They pray namaz regularly, read Quran, give zakat etc. I know a lot of people who do not keep a beard and are still good muslims. Besides, there are always exceptions. I know a few people who are not practicing muslims, do not know anything about Islam and will still argue about the tenets of Islam. Do you need more explanation?
Well, let me specify then. I go to dawoodi bohra gatherings and I do not agree with all their practices they force on people, one of them being forcing people about keeping beards. That is the reason I'm presenting my arguments on this thread. I wonder why are you even here? You're not a even a dawoodi bohra.
Yes, even I know a few right wingers who have digested the quran and then think of themselves as elite scholars. If you didn't agree with their point of view, they'll ridicule you with their expert blogging skills. I guess I don't even need to ask if you need any more explanation.

Human
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#132

Unread post by Human » Thu May 13, 2010 12:45 am

Smart wrote:^
Looking at all the arguments in favour of the beard, I have come to the conclusion that the syedna was right in felicitating Narendra Modi. It is the facial hair that matters, everything else is secondary.
Good point Smart. I like it!

Human
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#133

Unread post by Human » Thu May 13, 2010 12:54 am

Going by certain people's point of view, allah has given us facial hair for a reason and we should no shave it. Now, I've got a few questions:
1. Facial hair includes moustache as well. Why trim/shave the moustache and leave the beard. A bit unfair on the poor moustache.
2. Unfortunate women who have facial hair, what should they do? Get rid of it (laser removal, bleach, etc) or keep them as allah would have given them for a reason?
3. Why do we trim nails and hair on the head?

anajmi
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#134

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 13, 2010 2:00 am

Human,

Now your arguments are getting childish. You go to bohra gatherings as a social event and not as a muslim. You can do what you want with your face and I couldn't care less. But kindly do not use bohras as a yardstick to measure the values of Islam.
I wonder why are you even here? You're not a even a dawoodi bohra.
That is the last argument of someone who has lost. I do not go to dawoodi bohra gatherings because I encounter pretenders on both sides. Those with beards and those without.

anajmi
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#135

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 13, 2010 2:15 am

Going by certain people's point of view, allah has given us facial hair for a reason and we should no shave it.
That is the point of view of the Prophet of Islam. If you do not believe in the prophet then you are not a muslim and hence, every other argument with you would be presented accordingly.
Facial hair includes moustache as well. Why trim/shave the moustache and leave the beard. A bit unfair on the poor moustache.
That is the order of the prophet. Simple. There is no science involved over here. Besides, I find it convenient to shave my moustache. A long moustache is irritating. Maybe you like the taste of your moustache hair. I don't know.
Unfortunate women who have facial hair
The order of the Prophet is for men only. Women should do whatever suits them best.
Why do we trim nails and hair on the head?
Hygeine would be a good reason. I am not sure if there is a command regarding the length of the hair on your head. If you wish to look like a woman, you could grow it long. Muslims who keep a beard wash them at least 5 times a day.

Smart
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#136

Unread post by Smart » Thu May 13, 2010 7:43 am

anajmi wrote:Smart,
Looking at all the arguments in favour of the beard, I have come to the conclusion that the syedna was right in felicitating Narendra Modi. It is the facial hair that matters, everything else is secondary.
Not a very smart conclusion. I thought you were supposed to be Smart!!
Agreed, I am not as smart as you are. However, could you counter the logic, rather than calling me names?

anajmi
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#137

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 13, 2010 8:31 am

Smart,

I am not Smart enough to counter your brilliant logic that Modi was felicitated by the Syedna for his facial hair.

Conscíous
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#138

Unread post by Conscíous » Thu May 13, 2010 1:00 pm

anajmi,
I truly believe, Allah has created us unique, because it was His will..
If He wanted us to keep a beard, it would have had some kind of use, like whiskers of a cat.
anajmi wrote:
We are not all unique.
Yes we are or prove me wrong.
anajmi wrote:
We are not all unique. We are all humans with the exact same anatomy. 2 legs, 2 hands, 1 mouth, 1 nose etc etc. People who grow beards do not look alike.
You will not find any humans with identical DNA, fingerprints or dental.

anajmi
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#139

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 13, 2010 1:10 pm

boom,

Yesterday we ended on a note where I asked you a question and you said you will reply tomorrow. I had indicated in my post that you will not respond. You did not.
You will not find any humans with identical DNA, fingerprints or dental.
Correct, growing a beard does not change your DNA, your fingerprints or your dental. Your DNA will still be unique. Infact, every hair on your beard will still have your unique DNA. Muslims are not asked to change their DNA to look like the prophet.
Yes we are or prove me wrong.
Easy to prove you wrong. The proof was in my post, which you just quoted. We all have 2 hands, 2 legs, 1 nose, 1 chin, 1 penis or vagina, 2 eyes etc etc etc. Unless of course, you are born with deformities or go through anatomy altering accidents.

Conscíous
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#140

Unread post by Conscíous » Thu May 13, 2010 2:23 pm

anajmi wrote:boom,

Yesterday we ended on a note where I asked you a question and you said you will reply tomorrow. I had indicated in my post that you will not respond. You did not.
And I will reply but not yet.. because I don't want to shift the topic..
anajmi wrote:boom,
You will not find any humans with identical DNA, fingerprints or dental.
Correct, growing a beard does not change your DNA, your fingerprints or your dental. Your DNA will still be unique. Infact, every hair on your beard will still have your unique DNA.
A beard changes how a person looks.. and that to me, is going against Allah's will.. Because If He wanted us to keep a beard, it would have had some kind of use, like whiskers of a cat.

anajmi wrote:boom,
Yes we are or prove me wrong.
Easy to prove you wrong. The proof was in my post, which you just quoted. We all have 2 hands, 2 legs, 1 nose, 1 chin, 1 penis or vagina, 2 eyes etc etc etc. Unless of course, you are born with deformities or go through anatomy altering accidents.
I think, you should be the one who needs to see a doctor to check your eyes. Forget about comparing your two legs with someone else and try to compare your right foot with the left one. Are they the exact dimensions?? NO..
Because Allah has created each & everything unique, because that was His will and trying to anything else, is going against Him..

anajmi
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#141

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 13, 2010 2:44 pm

And I will reply but not yet.. because I don't want to shift the topic..
That is too bad. You missed your chance. I proved my point.
NO..
Because Allah has created each & everything unique
Correct. Everything is unique. Every hair on a person's beard is unique because it has it's own unique DNA. Growing a beard does not make people the same. They are still just as unique as before. Some people have a thick beard, some have a thin one some have more hair and some have less. I don't know of two people who have the same number of hairs in their beard. Some trim it differently than others. So even if everyone has a beard, they are all unique, except if you have a problem with your eyesight. Then they all appear the same to you.
Because If He wanted us to keep a beard, it would have had some kind of use, like whiskers of a cat.
So you are saying that Allah knew what to do with the whiskers of a cat but forgot what he wanted to do with a man's beard? Maybe the uses of a beard are still to be discovered. All scientists should be forced to grow a beard. It is because they keep shaving it off that they haven't figured out its uses. The will of Allah is to grow a beard that is why hair appears on the face. If he didn't want us to keep a beard, why did he give us genes to grow a beard? To shave it is going against Allah's will. If a human does not interfere with his anatomy, every man will have a beard. Exactly as Allah wanted. They would still be unique, except to a blind person. But then even all clean shaven men will look alike to the blind man.
Are they the exact dimensions?? NO..
Because Allah has created each & everything unique, because that was His will and trying to anything else, is going against Him..
Correct. They are not exactly the same. Similarly, no two beards are exactly the same as I explained above. They are all unique.

And the most important thing is that the prophet (saw) of Allah knew what Allah wanted us to do. He has ordered us to keep a beard. So that is what Allah wants. Every other argument about what Allah actually wants can be dismissed as baseless, since you are obviously not receiving wahi from Allah. Hence you are going against the will of Allah.

Conscíous
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#142

Unread post by Conscíous » Thu May 13, 2010 4:50 pm

anajmi,
You are conraditing your self..??
you first stated:
anajmi wrote:Allah created us unique,
then,,
anajmi wrote:We are not all unique.
And now,
anajmi wrote:Everything is unique.
Are you shifting you opinion from post to post??

anajmi wrote:The will of Allah is to grow a beard that is why hair appears on the face. If he didn't want us to keep a beard, why did he give us genes to grow a beard?
Those genes are not only for the beard, but they also work on the rest of the hair on the body..
anajmi wrote:To shave it is going against Allah's will.

If what you say is true, then all the women are going against Allah's will..??
anajmi wrote:If a human does not interfere with his anatomy, every man will have a beard. Exactly as Allah wanted
So will every female have a bread and we would all look like from the stone age..

What you are saying, doesn't really make sense.. Because you are conraditing your self..

anajmi
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#143

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 13, 2010 5:03 pm

No contradiction
Allah created us unique,
Unique DNA, unique fingerprints, unique dental.
We are not all unique.
2 legs, 2 hands, 2 eyes, I head, 1 nose.
Everything is unique.
unique snow flakes, left leg not the same as right leg. etc etc.

Allah's will has been expressed through his prophet (saw). That is the best way to avoid confusion and contradiction. The best person to tell us about Allah's will was the prophet. He has ordered the men to grow a beard. Simple. Any other person trying to interpret Allah's will and coming up with an opposite of what the prophet taught can be safely ignored because then we will have these idiotic questions about women growing beards and what not.

Conscíous
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#144

Unread post by Conscíous » Thu May 13, 2010 6:56 pm

your saying; "it is going against Allah's will", for men to shave. because he has given men the genes to grow hair and Allah has given this same genes to women., but it's okey for women to shave??

According to your logic, it is Allah's will, not to change appears.. Why do you then cut your hair & nails??

anajmi
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#145

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 13, 2010 7:19 pm

boom,

Allah's will is best expressed through the prophet (saw) of Allah. If we try to interpret Allah's will, we will cause confusion and contradictions. So let us go back and see what is Allah's will as expressed by his prophet (saw). The prophet has ordered the men to grow their beards. Simple. The prophet has also suggested that you should cut your nails and hair from other parts of your body. Allah's will is what the prophet has asked us to do. It is ok for women to shave their beards (for those that have beards) as there is no order from the prophet (saw) of Allah for women to grow their beards.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#146

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu May 13, 2010 7:22 pm

its time to put a lid on this 'hair raising' argument and stop splitting hairs... we seem to have gone from sunnate rasool to body hair and now women with beards and moustaches..!! :!:
this is getting to be weirder by the minute..! are we soon going to see freaks of nature here like the ringling bros' barnum and bailey circus??

can admin pls cap this gushing oil well.. a la lousiana? they are collecting human hair all over america for checking oil pollution on the affected shores. its time the luxuriant growth and junglee dadhis among bohras stepped forward to contribute to a good cause.

anajmi
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#147

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 13, 2010 7:29 pm

Al Z,

I would like this discussion to go on. It is a civil discussion. Please do not suggest closer of topics that might seem boring to you.

Conscíous
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#148

Unread post by Conscíous » Thu May 13, 2010 11:43 pm

anajmi wrote:boom,
Allah's will is best expressed through the prophet (saw) of Allah. If we try to interpret Allah's will, we will cause confusion and contradictions. So let us go back and see what is Allah's will as expressed by his prophet (saw). The prophet has ordered the men to grow their beards. Simple. The prophet has also suggested that you should cut your nails and hair from other parts of your body. Allah's will is what the prophet has asked us to do. It is ok for women to shave their beards (for those that have beards) as there is no order from the prophet (saw) of Allah for women to grow their beards.
I don't believe, that Allah's wants us to "look" like the Prophet (saw) otherwise he would have never created us unique.. I don't think, Allah cares how we look.. Bread will not make it any easy, to open the doors of heaven.. Their is no magical power or any use for the bread.. It's a body-waste.. Something the body want to get ride of.. That's why it grows out & not IN.. If Allah wanted us to keep bread, it would have some kind of use, like whiskers.. And I don't think Allah is unfair.. Lets women shave & not men.. Maybe, the Prophet (saw) had a skin-problem or he was not good looking and bread was the answer to his problem..

anajmi
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#149

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 13, 2010 11:53 pm

boom,

What you believe Allah wants is immaterial and doesn't hold any value against what the Prophet (saw) has told us. Allah says in the Quran - Obey Allah and Obey His Prophet. Allah also says in the Quran that the prophet (saw) does not speak out of his own desire. So who do you think should be trusted? You? Or Allah and his prophet (saw)? The prophet (saw) has asked us to grow beards. By calling the prophet (saw) a liar, you have just shown yourself to be a munafiq, something that I have shown earlier on this thread.

According to tradition, the Prophet (saw) was a very handsome man. These are traditions from great sahabas, and the family of the prophet (saw). And as you agree, the beard made him a better looking person than he was before. So his advise to the rest of the Ummah is good advise.

Conscíous
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Re: views on dhadi n topi

#150

Unread post by Conscíous » Fri May 14, 2010 9:47 am

anajmi wrote: What you believe Allah wants is immaterial and doesn't hold any value against what the Prophet (saw) has told us. Allah says in the Quran - Obey Allah and Obey His Prophet. Allah also says in the Quran that the prophet (saw) does not speak out of his own desire. So who do you think should be trusted? You? Or Allah and his prophet (saw)? The prophet (saw) has asked us to grow beards. By calling the prophet (saw) a liar, you have just shown yourself to be a munafiq, something that I have shown earlier on this thread.
Allah has shown His will, in his creation, by creating us unique.. And trying to look similar is going against his will.. Allah is fair, and doesn't treat male or female any differently.. The set of rules, applies to both gender.. No one is worth, more or less.. We are all even, in the presence of Allah..
anajmi wrote:According to tradition, the Prophet (saw) was a very handsome man. These are traditions from great sahabas, and the family of the prophet (saw). So his advise to the rest of the Ummah is good advise.
A few people say the same thing about Syedna Saab, which many Muslims disagree..

Since you are claiming he was very handsome..
How can you really know for sure? Have you seen his picture? From all his wife's, how many of them had proposed him? And how many proposal did he get generally though out his entire life?
Did he ever force/command anyone into marrying him??
anajmi wrote:And as you agree, the beard made him a better looking person than he was before.
I have never seen a picture of the Prophet (saw) before or after.. So it's hard to tell..