Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

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aqs
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#31

Unread post by aqs » Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:03 am

Hussain_KSA wrote:
Now this is something new to me. Could you provide any link, proof or reference to this Riwayat that Ali was present their when omar said the above mentioned words about Hajre aswad. Just asking for the sake of knowledge as I did not come across such thing durng my comparative studies of religion.

Wassalam
a lot of riwwayat's which are told in Dawoodi bohra waez are not present in other Ithna ashari or Sunni references, so it can not be verified by any neutral source, example can be difference of shahdat of Imam Husain(as) narrated by DB's and Ithna asharis in general. and the country i live in over here a lot of Shia websites are banned so i cant search references freely online

Smart
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#32

Unread post by Smart » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:38 am

@aqs
already replied


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5081&start=30
That is not a satisfactory reply. it does not address the issue that I have raised. Please don't beat around the bush with vague answers.

S. Insaf
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#33

Unread post by S. Insaf » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:40 am

The above quoted circular by sent to me by Husain Kakroliwala from Udaipur belonging to Shabab (orthodox) group some 12 years back with a remark "Kiya yeh Shirk nahi hai?" (Is it not Shirk?). I feel the same Kakroliwala would Not find any Shirk today in the such circulars.

anajmi
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#34

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:46 am

From reading aqs' posts it is becoming clear to me that Syedna worship is simply a personal preference and not something that is suggested in religious books. There are no books that say that deedar of Syedna is the same as deedar of the Kaaba or kissing his feet is like kissing Hajre Aswad. These are personal preferences and personal emotions. There is nothing in religious texts that requires the bohras to kiss his feet or to take his raja or to adore him like the others do. It is simply personal beliefs.

Is that right aqs?

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#35

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:51 pm

S. Insaf wrote:[
English translation of the circular signed by then Syedna Saheb's Udaipur Aamil Salman Raseed



Abde-Syedna
Salman Raseed
Doesnt the name sound familiar ? There is one Salman Rushdie who wrote The Satanic rites and here we have another one who is the writer of Satanic Shirk.

Human
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#36

Unread post by Human » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:58 pm

anajmi wrote:From reading aqs' posts it is becoming clear to me that Syedna worship is simply a personal preference and not something that is suggested in religious books. There are no books that say that deedar of Syedna is the same as deedar of the Kaaba or kissing his feet is like kissing Hajre Aswad. These are personal preferences and personal emotions. There is nothing in religious texts that requires the bohras to kiss his feet or to take his raja or to adore him like the others do. It is simply personal beliefs.
anajmi, I agree with your analysis. But the younger generation don't have a choice. They are brought up in an environment where moula is projected as God, so after they grow up they turn out to be blind abdes. I guess they never question the things that are being taught to them and a few of them who question them are the ones like me and many others on this forum. 'Outsiders' or 'dushmans'; destined to burn in the hell fire for thousands of years. (Burhanuddin, 2009)

Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin, 2009, Ashara Vaez. Exact quote "hazaaro saal jalse apna dushman"

aqs
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#37

Unread post by aqs » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:15 am

anajmi wrote:From reading aqs' posts it is becoming clear to me that Syedna worship is simply a personal preference and not something that is suggested in religious books. There are no books that say that deedar of Syedna is the same as deedar of the Kaaba or kissing his feet is like kissing Hajre Aswad. These are personal preferences and personal emotions. There is nothing in religious texts that requires the bohras to kiss his feet or to take his raja or to adore him like the others do. It is simply personal beliefs.
@Anajmi,

The books i have read i have never come across any such thing, but if we go to the root of this then we can see that a lot of emphasis was given to going to Prophet(saw) or Imam(as) court and in general people believed that it carries a lot of sawab, this was more strengthened by different Historians and writers who use to be present in Imam(as) court.

even Raza is not mandated by Deen but as depicted in History that people used to ask Prophet(saw) and Imams(as) for important matters so the tradition is their and people follow it.

adoring Him(tus) is again personnel choice. People jump with their hands in the air then its their choice and i stand at the back without jumping and shouting its my choice. both have got their reasons best know to themselves

Human
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#38

Unread post by Human » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:42 am

aqs wrote: even Raza is not mandated by Deen but as depicted in History that people used to ask Prophet(saw) and Imams(as) for important matters so the tradition is their and people follow it.
aqs, If you are correct about this then maybe people used to ask Prophet and Imams because the religion was new and people did not know what to do. Maybe it was more like they were asking advise and permission in certain matters if it was acceptable in the religion of 'islam'. Whereas 'raza' as it stands today is a pathetic formality. Raza is required in every small thing; a happy occasion, a sad occasion, any darn thing. And with raza, a heavy envelope of cash has to accompany as salaam. Also depends on how your impression is in aamil's and his chamcha's minds and they decide how much trouble is to be given to you. They also need to make sure that you've paid all your taxes in the past or raza is not given. On sad occasions like passing away of someone, burial raza is not given and the grieving family struggles more. On happy occasions like weddings, there are seperate 'taxes' to be paid. By the time people deal with aamil and pay up all the hefty sums, the happy occasion of wedding often turns to be a rather stressful and tensed affair.
Raza as it stands today for us dawoodi bohras is in a pathetic state, we are slaves and we need to ask our master's permission for every small thing! Absolutely pathetic.

Smart
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#39

Unread post by Smart » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:04 am

@aqs,
Your posts are trying to create an image of a very mild non interfering deen and a very moderate establishment that is also very courteous and reasonable in its practices.

Is all this true? Or, is this they way it should be? Most people here and even among the abdes will find the picture you are trying so hard to create, a Utopia, which even progressives would appreciate.

THE FACTS ARE OTHERWISE.
Either you live in a world of make believe or have some hidden agenda.

aqs
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#40

Unread post by aqs » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:52 am

Human wrote:
aqs wrote: even Raza is not mandated by Deen but as depicted in History that people used to ask Prophet(saw) and Imams(as) for important matters so the tradition is their and people follow it.
aqs, If you are correct about this then maybe people used to ask Prophet and Imams because the religion was new and people did not know what to do. Maybe it was more like they were asking advise and permission in certain matters if it was acceptable in the religion of 'islam'. Whereas 'raza' as it stands today is a pathetic formality. Raza is required in every small thing; a happy occasion, a sad occasion, any darn thing. And with raza, a heavy envelope of cash has to accompany as salaam. Also depends on how your impression is in aamil's and his chamcha's minds and they decide how much trouble is to be given to you. They also need to make sure that you've paid all your taxes in the past or raza is not given. On sad occasions like passing away of someone, burial raza is not given and the grieving family struggles more. On happy occasions like weddings, there are seperate 'taxes' to be paid. By the time people deal with aamil and pay up all the hefty sums, the happy occasion of wedding often turns to be a rather stressful and tensed affair.
Raza as it stands today for us dawoodi bohras is in a pathetic state, we are slaves and we need to ask our master's permission for every small thing! Absolutely pathetic.
Human,

their are common facilities maintained by Jamaat which are used by Dawoodi Bohras for their functions, people will be asked to take raza or permission from Jamaat to use the facility and as the norm is that if you have not paid the dues then you dont get the permission, which can be in any institution that till you pay your due you are not allowed to use the facilities. And if you call Aamil to the funtion then almost every where Jamaat have fixed some amount for the salaam, and beleive me its the local jamaat which is more at fault when they fix exorbitant amounts sometime.

and generally people are not stopped to do functions due to unpayement of dues when its for Mayyat jamans

Now you are very much free to do funtions at any other common place and enjoy who is asking you to take raza, so basically raza is involved only when we have to use our dawat maintained facilities.

Human
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#41

Unread post by Human » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:23 am

aqs wrote: and generally people are not stopped to do functions due to unpayement of dues when its for Mayyat jamans

Now you are very much free to do funtions at any other common place and enjoy who is asking you to take raza, so basically raza is involved only when we have to use our dawat maintained facilities.
I remember touching posts by Al Zulfiqar and Accountability on some other thread before. It was about how common people are being harassed in tough times, times of hardship like mayyat and burial. And if you say that 'mayyat jamans' are not stopped, either you are utterly mistaken or you're lying. Jamans are a far fetched thing, they even stop and don't allow the burial and dead bodies stranded for hours and hours. Abundant examples have been given on this forum and many of them are first hand experiences of members. My experience says, they'd stop ANY function be it happy or sad for the sake of money.

Smart
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#42

Unread post by Smart » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:29 am

^
I entirely agree with Human here. Leave alone mayyat jaman, they even harass people for burial. I have been a victim of this high handedness. I was told not to come for my own mother's funeral, just because I don't keep a beard, inspite of the fact that all dues were paid.

Dear Bro aqs,
All this goody goody talk are just that. The truth is entirely different.

ozmujaheed
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#43

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:27 am

Bro Oma and Muslim first let us call a spade a spade Orthos are a deviant cult. There is enough proof on this website.

I will use the same methods the Kothar use to gain publicity or manipulate the community to discredit them such that their power is cut to size.

If I have to seek Alliance from governments, Sunni or Shia then let it be, end justifies the means while hand of friendship is also ready.

There can only be a formal and sincere compromise respected by all sides and hence ceasefire where we mutually agree to recognize and respect each others freedoms and tolerate perspectives.

anajmi
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#44

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:30 am

aqs,

You have been honest with your replies. I appreciate it when you say that there is no evidence of the practices of the bohras from deeni books.

Can anyone get raza from the kothar without paying any money? Does every kind of raza involve money? Do you know if the prophet charged money for his raza?

People used to go to the prophet to ask because, as Human said, Islam was a new religion and people were not sure how certain things were supposed to be done. Also, the prophet never charged any money for answering these questions. Does the kothar require raza to do roza or to pray namaaz? No. Because there is no money involved. Raza for Hajj is not required in any books as you have clearly mentioned. Raza for Hajj is given in the Quran. No one can prevent you from going to Hajj. Except, the Kothar can. Raza is a tool that the Kothar uses to extract dues from people who might not have paid, or as it is in most cases, have not been able to pay.
till you pay your due you are not allowed to use the facilities.
This is true of a membership club but not of a religious institution. There are a lot of Sunni mosques that you can go to and pray and have to pay absolutely nothing. They have boxes for donations because that is what they depend on and people donate out of their own free will. No one is forced to pay and no one is stopped if they cannot pay.
and generally people are not stopped to do functions due to unpayement of dues when its for Mayyat jamans
Here, you are completely off the mark. Burials and marriages are the two greatest times of opportunity for the kothari goons to extract money out of the sheep.

aqs
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#45

Unread post by aqs » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:00 pm

anajmi wrote:aqs,

You have been honest with your replies. I appreciate it when you say that there is no evidence of the practices of the bohras from deeni books.

Can anyone get raza from the kothar without paying any money? Does every kind of raza involve money? Do you know if the prophet charged money for his raza?

People used to go to the prophet to ask because, as Human said, Islam was a new religion and people were not sure how certain things were supposed to be done. Also, the prophet never charged any money for answering these questions. Does the kothar require raza to do roza or to pray namaaz? No. Because there is no money involved. Raza for Hajj is not required in any books as you have clearly mentioned. Raza for Hajj is given in the Quran. No one can prevent you from going to Hajj. Except, the Kothar can. Raza is a tool that the Kothar uses to extract dues from people who might not have paid, or as it is in most cases, have not been able to pay.

i have already told that when you want to use the facility then you have to clear the dues, For coming to Masjid no dues are taken and every one is welcome. and if you want to go to Hajj with Bohra's under their quota then definetly you will use their facilities so you are asked to clear your old dues. you are very much free to go to Hajj with some private tour operator and then no need for raza or clearing your dues, but people want to avail all the facilities also and then they say that every thing is commercialized.
anajmi wrote:
aqs wrote: till you pay your due you are not allowed to use the facilities.
This is true of a membership club but not of a religious institution. There are a lot of Sunni mosques that you can go to and pray and have to pay absolutely nothing. They have boxes for donations because that is what they depend on and people donate out of their own free will. No one is forced to pay and no one is stopped if they cannot pay.
entrance to our masjid does not depend on the payment of your dues, you are very much welcome. Even Sunni's marriage halls or commercial places come at a rate, hire them and do your jaman no will bother you, if you want to bring aamil to it then their might be some salaam attached with it, and their can be some compulsion to use our facility only as no one likes competition.
anajmi wrote:
aqs wrote:and generally people are not stopped to do functions due to unpayement of dues when its for Mayyat jamans
Here, you are completely off the mark. Burials and marriages are the two greatest times of opportunity for the kothari goons to extract money out of the sheep.

in Marraiges i agree that Aamils put pressure to clear your sabil, they also have to run a organisation which runs with the help of local sabil and if a person can spend good amount on marraige then he can pay his old due sabil also

For burials Inaaf saheb can mention his brother Hyder Ali Insaaf's example from Bhopal that their is no opposition to burials of even known reformists and their sympathizers

S. Insaf
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#46

Unread post by S. Insaf » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:36 pm

No In case of my brother he was very well known and respected by the people in Bhopal and in general because of his helping nature. It was the fear in Kothar that did not allowed them to create any trouble with his burial. If he was a commoner than the Amil and the Kothar would have sucked a lot of money before giving permission and put the family in enough humiliation. They could not expliot us because of our moral strength. Where as famous people like Fathruddin Khorakiwala were boycotted just for talking to Zain Rangoonwala in a marriage function and harrased and were made to apologise. He was weak in charactor plus he was a wealthy Bohra from whom they could extract money in lakh and also set an example for other weak Bohras.

SBM
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#47

Unread post by SBM » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:38 pm

Br.Aqs
Salaam
In burial also, an Aamil will not peform the rituals unless your sabeel and other wajebaats are clear. An Aamil uses the Nikkah and Burial as the only weapons to extract. If you ask an ordinary Bohra why he is in Jamaat, majority will answer that they are there and suffering the wrath of the aamil because they want to make sure they Children get married and if some one dies in their family, they get proper burial.....

anajmi
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#48

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:52 pm

if a person can spend good amount on marraige then he can pay his old due sabil also
Dear bro aqs,

Blackmailing during marriages is more suited to thugs and dons and not religious institutions. Wouldn't you agree? Besides, why is it that only amongst bohras are people who are paying sabils? Why don't you see sabils in other sects like Sunnis? Do you know what a sabil is? Is sabil paid after availing of kothar's/jamaats facilities? Or is sabil something that has to be paid even if you do not use any of kothar's facilities?

anajmi
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#49

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:02 pm

if you want to bring aamil to it then their might be some salaam attached with it, and their can be some compulsion to use our facility only as no one likes competition.
So you agree that kothar has mixed business with religion. You have to use kothar's facilities, and you have to pay for them. If you do not use their facilities, there might be difficulties that you might have to face from the kothari goons and if you use their facilities, then you are not debt ridden and they will blackmail you during marriages.

This is what the progressives are fighting against. The kothar has converted bohraism into D-Company where blackmail and hafta wasooli are part of daily life.

Similarly, you say that you can use other travel agents for Hajj and you do not need raza, however if you do that, then you are creating competition for the Kothar, and they do not like that, so what they will do is harass you if you use a different travel agent, boycott you and create all kinds of trouble for you. So you have no choice but to go through them, get their raza and then pay them money and keep paying them all your life.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#50

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:30 pm

aqs wrote:their are common facilities maintained by Jamaat which are used by Dawoodi Bohras for their functions, people will be asked to take raza or permission from Jamaat to use the facility and as the norm is that if you have not paid the dues then you dont get the permission
I agree that there are common facilities maintained by jamats which are "used by bohras" but what when "bohras are forced to use them" ? Example.... There are various instances that when the amil learns that the wedding reception is held at a place other then the ones controlled by them then NIKAHS ARE STOPPED and only after the parties cancel the venue of their choice and book a hall or jamatkhana controlled by kothar and produce a reciept then only the amil performs nikah. This has happened a number of times in Mumbai. I know a family who had booked The Parish Hall at Christ Church School for their reception and when the goons in badri mahal came to know about it then they blasted the family and issued a strict warning that until and unless the venue is not changed nikah will not be performed by mukasir. The poor family had no choice but to cancel the venue, forego the deposit amount and book a typical bohra hall, produce the reciept and only then nikah was performed. In places like chennai, bohras have to compulsarily host a function in bohra jamatkhana and the same does not look different from a ghum-ni-majlis because the attire is the same monotanous one.... Saya,topi for gents and rida for ladies and off course preceeded by a majlis and purjosh maatam.
aqs wrote:so basically raza is involved only when we have to use our dawat maintained facilities.
If that is the case then what about the raza for doing a majlis or darees in ones OWN HOUSE ? Bohras have to take raza from amils even for Hussain (a.s.) majlis or darees and even the ones who recites marsiyas have to be the ones who are on the approved list of kothar, you cant choose a person of your choice no matter how good he is, you have to bear the one whom kothar chooses no matter how bad he/she is.

Human
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#51

Unread post by Human » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:02 pm

omabharti wrote:Br.Aqs
If you ask an ordinary Bohra why he is in Jamaat, majority will answer that they are there and suffering the wrath of the aamil because they want to make sure they Children get married and if some one dies in their family, they get proper burial.....
Well said Oma. Doesn't matter if the dawoodi bohra families accept this fact or not, but it still remains a clear matter of fact. This is THE REASON why everyone is still keeping up with the harassment. Nikah, Akiko, Misaq, Mayyat, etc. are the pressure points of this system. All these things being a compulsion means, you can't escape. Run as you like, the system will get you someday and when it does, it will get you bad. The only way is OUT!

profastian
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#52

Unread post by profastian » Wed May 12, 2010 11:05 am

Dear proggies, many of the posts in this thread convict us abde's of shirk.
So first tell me the definition of Shirk according to you guyz
and then I will answer furthur

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#53

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed May 12, 2010 12:04 pm

profastian wrote:Dear proggies, many of the posts in this thread convict us abde's of shirk.
So first tell me the definition of Shirk according to you guyz
and then I will answer furthur
if you dont even know the meaning of shirk and have to ask the progressives, then are you fit to be called a muslim???

Smart
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#54

Unread post by Smart » Wed May 12, 2010 11:10 pm

Your lords and masters are the prime repositories of all knowledge and you yourself are a "highly qualified" mathematician. Your lords and masters have taught all the knowledge to the rest of the world including hindus and you mean to say that they forgot to teach you such an elementary concept as 'shirk'?

Surely you must be joking Mr. Profastian? (With apologies to Richard Feynman)

profastian
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#55

Unread post by profastian » Thu May 13, 2010 3:32 am

Smart wrote:Your lords and masters are the prime repositories of all knowledge and you yourself are a "highly qualified" mathematician. Your lords and masters have taught all the knowledge to the rest of the world including hindus and you mean to say that they forgot to teach you such an elementary concept as 'shirk'?

Surely you must be joking Mr. Profastian? (With apologies to Richard Feynman)
I said the definition of shirk "according to you". Please read my posts carefully before posting stupid replies.

Truth Hurts
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#56

Unread post by Truth Hurts » Thu May 13, 2010 5:27 am

profastian wrote:[I said the definition of shirk "according to you". Please read my posts carefully before posting stupid replies.

According to us......(rest of the muslims / World...and ofcourse...even Google)


Image

Image

profastian
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#57

Unread post by profastian » Thu May 13, 2010 6:12 am

Truth Hurts wrote:
profastian wrote:[I said the definition of shirk "according to you". Please read my posts carefully before posting stupid replies.

According to us......(rest of the muslims / World...and ofcourse...even Google)


Image

Image
I searched the same string on google. Never got the links.

Smart
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#58

Unread post by Smart » Thu May 13, 2010 7:21 am

@profastian,
What is shirk according to us is known all over the world. It is also there in the quran. Why don't you provide us your definition?

A great mathematician and intelligent guy like you and under the tutelage of the great repository of knowledge, it would be interesting for us ignoramuses to learn from. Now don't go ahead and call me to your sabak. I am not coming. I would like to see it here.

profastian
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#59

Unread post by profastian » Thu May 13, 2010 8:52 am

Smart wrote:@profastian,
What is shirk according to us is known all over the world. It is also there in the quran. Why don't you provide us your definition?

A great mathematician and intelligent guy like you and under the tutelage of the great repository of knowledge, it would be interesting for us ignoramuses to learn from. Now don't go ahead and call me to your sabak. I am not coming. I would like to see it here.
Shirk according to me is the non belief in the concept of "Wahdaniyat" (oneness). Be it the oneness of Allah or the oneness of the current Sahib-e-Zaman.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Projecting Dai Mohammad Burhanuddin as Prophet Syedna

#60

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu May 13, 2010 9:27 am

profastian wrote:
Shirk according to me is the non belief in the concept of "Wahdaniyat" (oneness). Be it the oneness of Allah or the oneness of the current Sahib-e-Zaman.
profitistan,

a slight correction... there is no "and" or "or" after ALLAH. anything you added after Allah made you a mushriq.

does your backside love the licking of extra hot flames in hell...??