IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
SBM
Posts: 6229
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#1

Unread post by SBM » Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:19 pm

Salaam
I think this topic has been discussed in the past when Aqs and Guy Sam were not part of it (the civilized bunch of other side)
Once again I want to hear from them specially Aqs who has reached to Taqqiyat level (if his oath does not forbid him, not a sarcastic remark, but a real reason) Here are my questions:
1- Why a woman who just lost her husband has to be isolated in a darkened room. Quran has clearly defined the reason and the intent of Iddat and also the duration (for those who wonder is to make sure if woman is pregnant and to get progeny)
2-Why it is not allowed for Dawoodi Bohra woman to see her face in mirror while in Iddat
3-Why is she not allowed to speak to non mehram male
4-What is wrong for her to read newspaper or magazines.
5-Is it necessary for a woman who is not child bearing age like my 70 year mother in law to go through this inhuman treatment while she is already suffering from other ailments
6-In one of the Jammat a woman who did not care about her husband and was ready for divorce, was asked to sit in Iddat which she declined upon her estranged husband's death, she was forced and she finally relented to sit in Iddat 4 years after his death. Is this not mockery of Allah's command, if this woman did not care about her husband what do you think her reaction was during those 4 months of isolation ( the b-----d did not let me live in peace while he was alive and he is punishing me upon his death. Instead of doing Dua for his maghferat, she was cursing him during those 4 months. IS THIS JUSTIFIED FOR THIS WOMAN TO SUFFER? Mind well she had 4 children and she was the only earning member.
I want to hear from Aqs and hopefully from other people. Hopefully we can all respect each other's views even though we may not agree.
I will like to say one thing about Aqs, you are smart enough and you know that there are corruption and wrongdoing in Kothar but I admire your loyalty to them in defending even their wrong doings.

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#2

Unread post by aqs » Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:37 am

omabharti wrote:Salaam
I think this topic has been discussed in the past when Aqs and Guy Sam were not part of it (the civilized bunch of other side)
Once again I want to hear from them specially Aqs who has reached to Taqqiyat level (if his oath does not forbid him, not a sarcastic remark, but a real reason) Here are my questions:
1- Why a woman who just lost her husband has to be isolated in a darkened room. Quran has clearly defined the reason and the intent of Iddat and also the duration (for those who wonder is to make sure if woman is pregnant and to get progeny)
2-Why it is not allowed for Dawoodi Bohra woman to see her face in mirror while in Iddat
3-Why is she not allowed to speak to non mehram male
4-What is wrong for her to read newspaper or magazines.
5-Is it necessary for a woman who is not child bearing age like my 70 year mother in law to go through this inhuman treatment while she is already suffering from other ailments
6-In one of the Jammat a woman who did not care about her husband and was ready for divorce, was asked to sit in Iddat which she declined upon her estranged husband's death, she was forced and she finally relented to sit in Iddat 4 years after his death. Is this not mockery of Allah's command, if this woman did not care about her husband what do you think her reaction was during those 4 months of isolation ( the b-----d did not let me live in peace while he was alive and he is punishing me upon his death. Instead of doing Dua for his maghferat, she was cursing him during those 4 months. IS THIS JUSTIFIED FOR THIS WOMAN TO SUFFER? Mind well she had 4 children and she was the only earning member.
I want to hear from Aqs and hopefully from other people. Hopefully we can all respect each other's views even though we may not agree.
I will like to say one thing about Aqs, you are smart enough and you know that there are corruption and wrongdoing in Kothar but I admire your loyalty to them in defending even their wrong doings.

Walekum as salaam,

as far as i know and remember

In iddat few things are frowned upon but they dont break your Iddat, for example
1) looking into mirror
2) reading newspaper
3) watching TV
4) listening to non mehram male voice

as far as i remember only one thing breaks the iddat period i.e. if a non mehram male looks at you, and thats it

in extreme case where their is no one is left in the family and woman has to go out she should cover herself in such a way that no non mehram male should be able to see her, she cant speak but can point out to things either with a covered hand or a stick. Point is Non mehram males should not see her but she can see them.
3-Why is she not allowed to speak to non mehram male
Db follow this and i have personally known one Muslim women who use to go to her Office but didnt talk to her male collegues(i dont know what kind of iddat she was following by just not talking to her male collegues)
5-Is it necessary for a woman who is not child bearing age like my 70 year mother in law to go through this inhuman treatment while she is already suffering from other ailments
again the reason mentioned by you that the iddat period is only to determine pregnancy does not hold truth, as their are other reasons for the same.
6-In one of the Jammat a woman who did not care about her husband and was ready for divorce, was asked to sit in Iddat which she declined upon her estranged husband's death, she was forced and she finally relented to sit in Iddat 4 years after his death. Is this not mockery of Allah's command, if this woman did not care about her husband what do you think her reaction was during those 4 months of isolation ( the b-----d did not let me live in peace while he was alive and he is punishing me upon his death. Instead of doing Dua for his maghferat, she was cursing him during those 4 months. IS THIS JUSTIFIED FOR THIS WOMAN TO SUFFER? Mind well she had 4 children and she was the only earning member.
if she was not able to live with the guy she should have gone for the Divorce, if due to social or financial reasons she was not able to do it then she is not left with much of a choice and will have to sit for Iddat, now as mentioned by you that she was the only earning member then the best course will be to do araz in Aqa Moula(tus) and do as per the instructions.

I dont know under what circumstances she was instructed to sit for her iddat after 4 years, but saying that she would have cursed her husband and nothing else then she should have gove with divorce while he was alive to save herself from such misery.

@Porus/others,

kindly point out the reference to iddat in Quran as i was only able to find reference to iddat after the divorce and not after death

ozmujaheed
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:14 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#3

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:41 am

aqs are you really a scholar or just a practicing Orthodox ?

You have answered questions by saying because other Muslims do or dont and that is how to compare the validity, you have not provided justification or logic

Orthos try explaining why Iddat in 2010 is mandatory ?

SBM
Posts: 6229
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#4

Unread post by SBM » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:22 am

Aqs
again the reason mentioned by you that the iddat period is only to determine pregnancy does not hold truth, as their are other reasons for the same.
Br. Aqs
Can you provide me in the light of Quran, what are the other reasons?
As far as the lady asking for divorce, she had been asking but as you know very well that in our community the divorce is not that easily granted by Kothar (some time it is a good idea to counsel the family and save the marriage) but in this case the local Aamil and his wife dragged their feet too long and just would not listen to reasoning
Your second point that being a earning member she should have ask for RAZA for extention of IDDAt. again if the RAZA was granted and she did IDDAT after 3 years, does not that break the intent and the reason of IDDAT as prescribed by ALLAH. let me hear views from Hussain_KSA, Anjami, Porus and company.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#5

Unread post by porus » Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:47 pm

For my views on iddat and its basis in the Quran, click on 'Advanced Search' at the top right of this page. Insert keyword iddat and author porus and click search.

You will get the snippets of my posts which you can expand to read.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#6

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:16 pm

oma,

The implementation of iddat is alluded to in one ayah of the quran in the case of divorce.

65:1

O PROPHET When you divorce women, divorce them with a view to the waiting-period appointed for them, and reckin the period, and be conscious of God, your Sustainer. Do not expel them from their homes, and neither shall they leave unless they become openly guilty of immoral conduct. These, then, are the bounds set by God and he who transgresses the bounds set by God does indeed sin against himself: thou knowest it not, after that God may well cause something new to come about.

The man is asked to not expel the woman from the house and the woman is asked not to leave the house. This is done so that maybe during the waiting period, God may cause the two to have a change of heart and reunite with each other.

As for the widowed women, the waiting period is probably to determine pregnancy, although this is not mentioned in the Quran. If a woman is pregnant, and she delivers, she doesn't have to go through the entire period of iddat.

Now, as far as Bohras' implementation of iddat is concerned, it is more in line with the Hindu practices of treating their vidhwas then it is in line with how Islam asks for women to be treated. Infact, scholars agree, that if a woman has to earn a living to provide for her family, then she has the right to go and work even during the period of iddat, unless there are people who can take care of her during this period.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#7

Unread post by porus » Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:49 pm

anajmi wrote: As for the widowed women, the waiting period is probably to determine pregnancy, although this is not mentioned in the Quran.
Issue of divorce while the woman is pregnant is explicitly mentioned in ayat 2:228. Here the responsibility of letting the husband know of pregnancy falls squarely on the wife. This may lead to reconciliation.

I can see how the issue of pregnancy is then carried over into the situation of widows. However, in this case, Quran is not so explicit.

SBM
Posts: 6229
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#8

Unread post by SBM » Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:21 pm

Br. Anjami and Porus
So do you agree with my position that having a women sit for BOHRA iddat is mockery of the intent and reason for a widowed woman or woman of non child bearing age
On the other side Aqs has pointed out that Quran does not specify and he is right on that account but to me that is not the intent of the command in Quran

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#9

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:19 pm

oma,

I am unwilling to take a stand right now that a women of non child bearing age should not sit for iddat. Because this could then go further to ask for exemption of women who cannot bear children. And this is because in case of widows, the Quran isn't explicit that iddat is to determine pregnancy. If it were explicit, then yes this exemption could be made.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#10

Unread post by porus » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:37 am

Iddat must be observed by widows and divorcees as per the directive of the Quran. Quran makes no distinction among them with respect to consummation of marriage or post-menopause state.

Iddat starts at the moment of widowhood or divorce and the period, as specified in the Quran, is to be reckoned from that point onwards.

My view is as follows:

A widow or divorcee is deemed to have observed Iddat if she does not re-marry within the specified period.

Observing Iddat 4 years after the death of a husband is nonsense. It has no Quranic sanction. To force a woman to do that is indeed a mockery.

Another instance is a recently widowed older lady in the USA. A month after her husband died, she moved to Karachi to observe her Iddat there. I am told that she will observe it for 4 months and 10 days from the moment she enters 'iddathood'. This could be 6 weeks after the death of her husband. This too is nonsense. Her Iddat started the moment her husband died.

Now, as to the issue of (almost) solitary confinement during Iddat, this has no basis in Quran and it is more a cultural issue. And I have a theory about it.

In not so distant past in India, and even now, a woman whose husband died was considered accursed. She took the blame for her husband's death and was punished for it by making her a pariah. She would not be invited to any celebrations like weddings or naming of babies. That would be inauspicious. She was made to don simple white clothes, sometimes to have her head shaved. In parts of India, she was expected to expiate for her sin 'of having eaten her husband' by throwing herself on to his funeral pyre. This was called the ritual of sati.

This notion of woman's guilt has been 'unconsciously' retained by Bohras from their Hindu past. Although, most Bohras would cringe from assigning such guilt to women, they have retained this cultural baggage and not jettisoned it out of their lives.

The primary fault is with religious establishment but the 'rightness' of these nonsensical rituals are strongly supported by women.

One of the most lurid aspects of the whole shenanigan is that a widow is expected to obtain RAZA from Sayedna before starting her Iddat. What nonsense is this!! It already started when she became a widow and Allah has commanded her to observe it. Why does she need Sayedna's Raza?

SBM
Posts: 6229
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#11

Unread post by SBM » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:22 am

Br. Porus
Very well said and I do hope Br. Aqs with his knowledge in current Dawoodi Bohra system can shed some light
Br. Anjami
After reading your post, I thought another, In some of the western countries lately they have been doing IN VITRO fertilization and in one case we had a 70 year old grand mother who gave birth to her grand daughter's baby as she was unable to bear child
so yes that might be some thing to ponder about
But my argument had been with Br. Aqs about when does IDDAT starts and what is the intent and I do think that both of you have succinctly answered the question
Br. Aqs has responded in his previous email that '"There is no truth that woman can not see a mirror nor can she talk to non-mehram man nor can she read newspaper (as their might be some images of men)" The reality on the ground is different
I would like to hear from people in whose family if some one has done Dawoodi Bohra IDDAT of their experience, In my experience even in USA,this unfortunate woman was barred from all these things.
Br. Aqs can you get a clarification from Vazarat or some document of DO's and DONOT's of IDDAT and present it here.

ozmujaheed
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:14 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#12

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:56 am

Abdes have no logical reason why Iddat is required ?

Meanwhile to prove pregnancy and inheritance, nowadays there are better medical methods and especially women over the child bearing age , Iddat is more of a customary ritual.

The repeat Iddat and Iddat postponed on instructions of Sayedna really raises questions hwat the whole Iddat is all about.

I received reports from Mombasa the widow of Late Dawoodbhai has been invited to UK by Sayedna and asked to resume Iddat later.

Therefore in Bohras Iddat is nothing to do with isolation fro males, pregnancy proving or grieving ..then what is it all about ?

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#13

Unread post by porus » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:26 pm

porus wrote:Iddat must be observed by widows and divorcees as per the directive of the Quran. Quran makes no distinction among them with respect to consummation of marriage or post-menopause state.
i need to revise the above. Ayat 33:49 specifies no iddat for a woman whose marriage has not been consummated.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#14

Unread post by porus » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:42 pm

Da'a'imul Islam (DI) has a section on Iddat in its 'Book of Divorce'.

The DI quotes a hadith from Ali ibn Abi Talib where Prophet, in answering a question from one of his wives, has stated that a woman in iddat who needs to attend to business should do so during daytime and must not spend the night out of the house. Prophet was asked if the woman can go on pilgrimage. Prophet answered that she can indeed go on pilgrimage while in iddat.

In an extraordinary statement by Ali, he says that once the marriage has been consummated, iddat must follow death of the husband. This applies whether the girl has reached puberty or not; or whether she menstuates or not.

In all cases both Prophet and Ali reckon iddat starting at the event of death or divorce. So Bohras are way out of line. They do not appear to follow even their primary Book of Fiqh, the Da'a'imul Islam.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#15

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:05 pm

omabharti wrote:
my answers are in blue below your queries...

1- Why a woman who just lost her husband has to be isolated in a darkened room. Quran has clearly defined the reason and the intent of Iddat and also the duration (for those who wonder is to make sure if woman is pregnant and to get progeny)
bro oma, I have never heard of any bohra woman being forced to sit in a darkened room. I have seen several aunts of mine, (in mehram with me) who have always sat in rooms where the windows and doors were covered with white curtains, through which sunlight could easily come through. i agree with porus that this seems to be a vestige from our hindu cultural practices of the past.
2-Why it is not allowed for Dawoodi Bohra woman to see her face in mirror while in Iddat.
again, this seems to be a matter of how individuals interpret it, whether they come from small villages, or big towns and their educational level. there is no reason why a woman should not see he own face in the mirror after a husband's death, unless there was a need felt by some over zealous and ultra-orthodox male elders to prevent her from beautifying herself for ghair mehramdar men.
3-Why is she not allowed to speak to non mehram male.
so that she is not misguided by men with vested interests who may have designs on her property, income, kids or her relations. a woman who has been recently bereaved or divorced is bound to be in a delicate mental state and can be easily lured by men with evil in their hearts. it is a well-known fact agreed by every psychologist that an estranged woman tends to bounce into disastrous relationships immediately after, due to her emotionally fragile situation at that time.
4-What is wrong for her to read newspaper or magazines.
i have seen my aunts and my own grand mother and mother reading newspapers and magazines during iddat. if someone is enforcing such silly restrictions, it must be again due to the society and small but ultra-orthodox communities they grew up in.
5-Is it necessary for a woman who is not child bearing age like my 70 year mother in law to go through this inhuman treatment while she is already suffering from other ailments.
as per my own interpretation of islam and the practical wisdom of its prophet and his pragmatic interpretation of the quran and the issues faced in the material world, iddat is also designed to protect a woman who has just undergone a painful experience of losing her husband or having been divorced, a time when she is emotionally very vulnerable and can be easily swayed or influenced by people bent on harming her interests - her property, income, relations or health. i would apply the same wisdom (hopefully) which the prophet would in any special circumstance. iddat is not complusory when the woman's family is solely depending on her work and income, is ailing or mature enough to handle her own affairs after such an event. again 2 cases have occured in my family when the ladies in question did not perform iddat, were questioned, their parents summoned etc. but both those ladies put up a valiant stand in their own defense and asked the amil if he would provide for and her family while she was in iddat. he backed down and the matter was dismissed.
6-In one of the Jammat a woman who did not care about her husband and was ready for divorce, was asked to sit in Iddat which she declined upon her estranged husband's death, she was forced and she finally relented to sit in Iddat 4 years after his death. Is this not mockery of Allah's command, if this woman did not care about her husband what do you think her reaction was during those 4 months of isolation ( the b-----d did not let me live in peace while he was alive and he is punishing me upon his death. Instead of doing Dua for his maghferat, she was cursing him during those 4 months. IS THIS JUSTIFIED FOR THIS WOMAN TO SUFFER? Mind well she had 4 children and she was the only earning member.
if she gave in due to social and other pressure, it is very sad, but it makes a mockery of the whole practice. she herself and her relatives should have stood up for her and defied the amil and should have even threatened to take the matter upto the kothar or to publicise it among other muslims. the amil would have backed down in a hurry. when such stupidity continues unabated over a long time, it tends to become 'tradition', as if set in stone. sensible people should exercise their own god given intellect and common sense and stop obeying diktats which make a mockery of islam and the pragmatism of the prophet.

SBM
Posts: 6229
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#16

Unread post by SBM » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:20 pm

Br. AZ
Thanks for your replies
In regards to darkened room. I did not mean literally but why paint the windows with white color, again that is Isolation.
To answer 6, the lady in question did put up fight for 4 years but due to small jamaat , she finally gave in and did it so that she can be included in the function. Again the tactic of 'TAMARA BACHAU NA NIKKAH KAUN PADSE ANEY TAMARI MAAUT PER TAMNE KAUN DAFAN KARSE" and since she was not very well mixed with other Muslim communities as most of the Abdes are not. unfortunately she relented.

charmingrose
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:52 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#17

Unread post by charmingrose » Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:53 am

Abdes have no logical reason why Iddat is required ?

oz

there doesnt hv to be logic in religion.or you can explain the logic of namz.

charmingrose
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:52 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#18

Unread post by charmingrose » Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:58 am

iddat is because woman is vulnerble after death of husband.and so that other man dont take advantage of her vulnerblitiy and she after 4 mths of isolation can gather her thots well and mke a decision on how to live onwards.iddat is hard.nothin in islam is easy.everythin is hard.

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#19

Unread post by aqs » Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:57 am

porus wrote: In all cases both Prophet and Ali reckon iddat starting at the event of death or divorce. So Bohras are way out of line. They do not appear to follow even their primary Book of Fiqh, the Da'a'imul Islam.
Porus,

In history their has been no record of women sitting for iddat just after the death of their Husband, do we have any record of 9 wives of Prophet(saw) who observed iddat or widows of Kerbala sat for Iddat after the tragedy of Kerbala, as during the journey they were very well seen by non mehram males so question of women sitting for iddat just after the death does not hold much water.

I am in no way saying that Prophets(saw) wives didnt sit for iddat or widows of kerbala didnt sit, but their is no such record and defintely in case of kerbala widows no immediate sitting would have been possible. So the decision squarely lays on Haq na saheb to decide as it would have been decided in the past so is decided in present
OmaBharti wrote:Can you provide me in the light of Quran, what are the other reasons?
I am not able to find any ayat in Quran which talks about iddat after the death of husband, only it mentions about iddat after the divorce.
OmaBharti wrote:Br. Aqs can you get a clarification from Vazarat or some document of DO's and DONOT's of IDDAT and present it here.
No such clarification is given, its more of a social practice which is followed every where almost in the same way, religion does talk about iddat but not much explicit details are provided on Do's and Dont's.

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#20

Unread post by aqs » Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:08 am

AQS wrote:
Omabharti wrote: Can you provide me in the light of Quran, what are the other reasons?

I am not able to find any ayat in Quran which talks about iddat after the death of husband, only it mentions about iddat after the divorce.
I have found the ayat, it talks about the period i.e 4 months and 10 days and the current practice can be ascribed to customs originated on a course of time


002.234 If any of you die and leave widows behind, they shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days: When they have fulfilled their term, there is no blame on you if they dispose of themselves in a just and reasonable manner. And God is well acquainted with what ye do.

ozmujaheed
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:14 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#21

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:49 am

002.234 If any of you die and leave widows behind, they shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days: When they have fulfilled their term, there is no blame on you if they dispose of themselves in a just and reasonable manner.
What does it mean to dispose ?

Where did Bohras introduce mirrors, speaking to male, rescheduling at Sayednas raza, staying at home , isolation ?

Charming if Islam was not founded on logic Quran would not be an eternal guide and we would not covert 1 billion beings thats the difference between Bohra mysticism and Islam.

Namaaz is submission to creator why we can start another topic and debate the logic

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#22

Unread post by porus » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:18 am

aqs wrote: Porus,

In history their has been no record of women sitting for iddat just after the death of their Husband, do we have any record of 9 wives of Prophet(saw) who observed iddat or widows of Kerbala sat for Iddat after the tragedy of Kerbala, as during the journey they were very well seen by non mehram males so question of women sitting for iddat just after the death does not hold much water.

I am in no way saying that Prophets(saw) wives didnt sit for iddat or widows of kerbala didnt sit, but their is no such record and defintely in case of kerbala widows no immediate sitting would have been possible. So the decision squarely lays on Haq na saheb to decide as it would have been decided in the past so is decided in present
I am losing patience with you. All the information about iddat that you need has been provided to you on this thread and other similar threads. We have quoted the Quran and we have quoted the Daaimul Islam (DI).Yet you come up with complete nonsense.

No 'sitting' in iddat is required. All the widows of the Prophet and all the widows of the martyrs of Karbala, if they followed the Quran, which they most certainly must have done, 'observed' iddat.

All a woman has to do while observing iddat is to go about her nornal business during daytime but remain in her house during the night, and not re-marry during her iddat.

aqs wrote: So the decision squarely lays on Haq na saheb to decide as it would have been decided in the past so is decided in present
This decision has already been made by Haq (Allah) Himself. It is in the Quran. This is another instance where, unlike Prophet, Sayedna deems it worthy to deviate from the Quran.

Let me repeat.

The DI quotes a hadith from Ali ibn Abi Talib where Prophet, in answering a question from one of his wives, has stated that a woman in iddat who needs to attend to business should do so during daytime and must not spend the night out of the house. Prophet was asked if the woman can go on pilgrimage. Prophet answered that she can indeed go on pilgrimage while in iddat.

All a woman has to do while observing iddat is to go about her nornal business during daytime but remain in her house during the night, and not re-marry during her iddat.

Ithan-asharis have a very lenient interpretation of this hadith according to a footnote in DI (Poonawala translation). In order to allow for a woman to conduct business in parts away from her normal residence, she can change her residence temporarily. This also takes care of Prophet's advise that the woman can perform Hajj/Umra during her iddat.

Please read my posts carefully.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#23

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:25 am

porus,

when aqs says 'sitting' in iddat, he displays the common fault of people who are not well-versed in english and tend to translate literally from their native tongues. in gujrati, bohras say, iddat ma besi gaya che.. also computer par bethelo che, navu varas besyu, etc, and actually translate them as sitting on computer, new year has sat, etc.

i sometimes wonder at the abysmal stupidity of abdes like aqs. they talk before they think. he mentions about the widows of the shohoda not sitting in iddat. either he is sick or making fun of them.. just because they not allowed to mourn their dead, were put in chains and subjected to untold indignities, it is justified for bohras to delay observance of iddat??

and since when has syedna become haq na saheb?? he is a lowly dai, whose job it is to invite people towards our faith, he is a gujrati baniya convert, like the rest of us and a commoner to boot. so all this b.s. about royal blood, sultan and shezaadas etc, is nothing but unadulterated crap.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#24

Unread post by porus » Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:46 am

al Z,

That is why I tried to make a distinction between 'sitting', interpreted literally, and 'observing' by typing the two words in bold. I hope aqs now understands why I did that.

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#25

Unread post by aqs » Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:11 am

@Porus,

Quran clearly states to observe iddat for a widow for 4 months and 10 days and nothing is talked about do's and dont's.

and the Iddat you are talking about is the period observed by divorcees where they can very well go to pligrimage and can see Non Mehram's and should return to their home in night time

Their is a vast difference between two iddats.

SBM
Posts: 6229
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#26

Unread post by SBM » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:12 am

Br. Aqs
Usually in USA and most of countries, Federal Law always supersedes the local law, Now to me Allah's law should supersede any rules or law made by a human being, so please explain why two different IDDATS and
I am still waiting to get reply as to the logic of delaying the IDDAT of a woman after her husband's death as per the KHUSHI of Haq na Saheb ( in this case Kothar, I really do not think that Raza comes from Syedna, it is some one on the low totem pole who reads and sends it, like the greetings from White House , the letter which is electronically signed by President but sent out by an underpaid or unpaid Intern), What is reason behind painting all your windows white and all other riutals which goes into isolating a woman upon death of her husband
On this forum people spent too much time about FGM but very few responses about the suffering of a woman upon loosing her loved one and then punishing her by isolating for another 4 months and 10 days (BTW Is Syedna considered a non mehram or not)

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#27

Unread post by aqs » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:58 am

omabharti wrote:Br. Aqs
Usually in USA and most of countries, Federal Law always supersedes the local law, Now to me Allah's law should supersede any rules or law made by a human being, so please explain why two different IDDATS and
I am still waiting to get reply as to the logic of delaying the IDDAT of a woman after her husband's death as per the KHUSHI of Haq na Saheb ( in this case Kothar, I really do not think that Raza comes from Syedna, it is some one on the low totem pole who reads and sends it, like the greetings from White House , the letter which is electronically signed by President but sent out by an underpaid or unpaid Intern), What is reason behind painting all your windows white and all other riutals which goes into isolating a woman upon death of her husband
On this forum people spent too much time about FGM but very few responses about the suffering of a woman upon loosing her loved one and then punishing her by isolating for another 4 months and 10 days (BTW Is Syedna considered a non mehram or not)

Its not that humans have devised two different iddats, Quran has different Ayats for different iddats, like for a widow its only told that it should be 4 months and 10 days where as for divorcee it is different and well documented in Daimul Islam and produced over here by Porus.

as far as delay is concerned i have already mentioned that If haq na saheb wants he can delay in special circumstances

I have mentioned this earlier that Quran has not set up any explicit rules for Iddat of a widow and only prescribed days, all other Do's and dont's can be ascribed to culture and environment.

as far as suffering of a women is concerned which you have highlighted then i agree with the post of AlZulfiqar and reasons he has pointed out.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#28

Unread post by porus » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:33 am

aqs wrote:@Porus,

Quran clearly states to observe iddat for a widow for 4 months and 10 days and nothing is talked about do's and dont's.

and the Iddat you are talking about is the period observed by divorcees where they can very well go to pligrimage and can see Non Mehram's and should return to their home in night time

Their is a vast difference between two iddats.
There is no difference between the two iddats except in reckoning the days. the very word 'idda' is derived from 'adad' which is related to counting. It means 'waiting period'. There are also difference in reckoning between iddats of the same type; death and divorce.

The hadith from Daaimul Islam about Prophet's reply concerned specifically about the woman who had been widowed.

aqs, I spend a lot of effort in composing my posts and provide you references from Quran, Daaimul Islam and other sources. Could you please show us similar courtesy?

In absence of these references, you come across as someone who lacks sufficient knowledge about what they assert.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#29

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:20 pm

oma,

to come back to your queries, let me add that my mother was in her late seventies when my father passed away. she did not need to observe iddat. we - all her children - strongly opposed the idea and dissuaded her from going through with this custom. i was the most vocal of them all and absolutely did not like the idea. i also consulted some shia and sunni mullahs through my contacts and they all unanimously agreed that at her age it was no longer binding on her and considering her health and other circumstances, she has exemptions. but if she wished so, then her wishes should be respected. when i asked my mother why she was insistent on this point of observing iddat, she mentioned that it was her way of both honouring and grieving for our father, her husband for 60 years. she wished to spend that time praying, and doing khatmul qurans in his memory. (mashaallah, she completed 15 full quran readings during this time, inspite of a constant stream of visitors and helping out in the house as much as she could too, and dedicated those readings to my father. May His soul rest in peace in Heaven)

after that plea from her, i relented. this shows another angle to why someone at her age wanted to observe iddat, although there was no need to. we as a family were quite strong and no one would have dared to question us or her if she hadnt.

SBM
Posts: 6229
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: IDDAT IN DAWOODI BOHRA

#30

Unread post by SBM » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:21 pm

Br. AZ
I agree with you if some one at that age want to do out of respect, I have no problem but being forced by Kothar and that is (what I asked Br. Aqs to clarify) is wrong.
Your mother sitting in Iddat was her choice and no one should take that right away from her. But specially in India, if a woman of that age does not want to do IDDAT she get ostracized by local Aamil and the community
Br. Aqs has still to answer why it is mandatory for a woman in that age to do Iddat (not Quranic ) but sitting in isolation for 4 months and 10 days.