Come together to fight

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
profastian
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am

Re: Come together to fight

#31

Unread post by profastian » Fri May 21, 2010 10:51 am

ultofanatic wrote:When you say you don't want to reform, why do you come here and utter nonsense. Why don't you leave us alone to our machinations. We will talk sense into those who have it and are willing to listen. Those others who can't understand, leave us alone. We don't want to reform you. When you don't want us to bother about what Syedna Saheb is doing, why are so interested in our activities. Take your own advise. Go back into your cubby holes and stay put.
We come here to laugh at your futile attempts. We have no compulsion of converting you or anything. You people are beyond hope any way.

Smart
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Come together to fight

#32

Unread post by Smart » Fri May 21, 2010 1:39 pm

If you really laughing at us, then why the name calling and gaali galoch and the curses. It is not your entertainment that brings you here, but your insecurities.

If you are so sure of being right why even bother answering us? This would happen only if you were to feel that there is grain of truth in what the progressives have to say.

Go ahead and pretend. Even your masters are scared, because this site is the most popular among the Dawoodi Bohra sites. No amount of razaa and their blessings and bans and their own search engines, they have been able to keep Bohras from visiting here.

I am sure even you are here without the razaa of your lord and master.

profastian
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am

Re: Come together to fight

#33

Unread post by profastian » Mon May 24, 2010 2:17 am

Smart wrote:If you really laughing at us, then why the name calling and gaali galoch and the curses. It is not your entertainment that brings you here, but your insecurities.

If you are so sure of being right why even bother answering us? This would happen only if you were to feel that there is grain of truth in what the progressives have to say.

Go ahead and pretend. Even your masters are scared, because this site is the most popular among the Dawoodi Bohra sites. No amount of razaa and their blessings and bans and their own search engines, they have been able to keep Bohras from visiting here.

I am sure even you are here without the razaa of your lord and master.
Point out my one post where there is gaali galoch on you guys. i challenge you.
On the other hand, I can point out hundreds of your such posts.

incredible
Posts: 1034
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:44 pm

Re: Come together to fight

#34

Unread post by incredible » Mon May 24, 2010 2:25 am

Smart wrote:If you really laughing at us, then why the name calling and gaali galoch and the curses. It is not your entertainment that brings you here, but your insecurities.

If you are so sure of being right why even bother answering us? This would happen only if you were to feel that there is grain of truth in what the progressives have to say.

Go ahead and pretend. Even your masters are scared, because this site is the most popular among the Dawoodi Bohra sites. No amount of razaa and their blessings and bans and their own search engines, they have been able to keep Bohras from visiting here.

I am sure even you are here without the razaa of your lord and master.

i dont know about others but i do come for free entertainment you guys provide,assumption and comic statement from ur guys are pricless,this forum is nothing but comic house.this forum is most moronic forum on internet.

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Come together to fight

#35

Unread post by SBM » Mon May 24, 2010 7:41 am

^
It show how pathetic your sense of humor is? You really got to cut down going to too many Majaalis and watch some of top comedians on Indian TV Channels.
Sitaron se Aaage Jahaan Aur bhi hai,
Marakaz ke alawa Zindagi aur bhi hai
(with apologies to Sir Mohd Iqbal)

Smart
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Come together to fight

#36

Unread post by Smart » Mon May 24, 2010 9:18 pm

@Oma
Let me add a couple of lines

Tu abde hain, kaam tera hai apni khaal dena,
Joote pehenne ko shehzade aur bhi hain

S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Re: Come together to fight

#37

Unread post by S. Insaf » Tue May 25, 2010 1:54 am

Affazo Maa'nee me tafawat nahi lekin
Mulla ki Azan aur, Mujahid ki Azan aur

Iqbal
Yarab woh na samjhe nain na samjhenge meri bat,
De aur dil unko, jo na de mujh ko zaban aur

Galib

ultofanatic
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:34 am

Re: Come together to fight

#38

Unread post by ultofanatic » Fri May 28, 2010 10:44 am

If they think that this site is funny, their sense of funniness is really skewered.

But who cares what they think. We will post and discuss what we feel is right.

Do not get pulled into stupid conversations and keep replying to their nonsense. Ignore them. Let's carry our discussions forward. After all that is what this forum is for.

We need to come up with newer strategies. Newer ways are available for this.

admirer
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:16 pm

Re: Come together to fight

#39

Unread post by admirer » Fri May 28, 2010 12:28 pm

Ultofanatic,

Your posts make sense.. It's important to have mass support for any movement.. But what reform are we talking about?
Reform makes sense only when you believe in a system and what to change some things.
But with progs that's not the case. You don't believe in Dai, his teachings and preachings. You always criticize about either dai's wildlife safari trip , or how we recite 'ghanujeevo'. So first decide, is it about the hatred of dai or is it genuinely about changing some systems.

And why do progs think it's crazy to recite 'ghanu jeevo' or 'sajda tujhe wajib hai'?? Even the British sing "Long live the Queen.." as their national anthem. It's just out of respect.

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Come together to fight

#40

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri May 28, 2010 2:28 pm

admirer, your very post is an argument for reform. It is a prime example of the dumbing-down of our community. You seem to have been on this site and forum for quite some time, haven't your read anything? haven't your learned anything? Here a link about bohras in general and the reform movement in particular: Bohras and reform-essential reading. Please read with an open mind and try to understand the issues. When you've done the reading hopefully you'll stop asking ignorant questions.

In response to your post, first of all pls understand there is no "system" to believe in. The Bohras beleive in the Quran, the Prophet and the Imams as expounded in the shia-ismaili doctrine. The "system" we are talking about is the Dai's administration which is corrupt and exploitative (facts well documented and experienced daily by bohras across the globe), and which misuses the tenets of bohra faith to control and coerce the community. There is nothing religious or sacred about this "system".

It is wrong to say that we don't believe in the Dai. Without the belief in the Dai we can't claim to be dawoodi bohras. The reformists' problem is not with the position of the Dai but the person occupying that position. The current and the previous dais have changed the shape and character of the community beyond recognition - producing people like you: ignorant, slavish, frightened. For all practical purposes, dawoodi bohras are anything but an islamic community. For the bohras it has been turned into a cult and for the Sayenda and his family it is a multinational corporation.

If you had a modicum of knowledge about Islam and our tradition you would not ask why we object to "ghanu jeevo' or 'sajda tujhe wajib hai'?? " The Dawoodi Bohra faith is not about the Dai. The dai is not the centre of the bohra universe as he is made out to be. His role is that of an inviter to faith - a role, I might add, that has lost its meaning and relevance in today's world. Singing madehs in his praise is to glorify his personality and that tantamounts to worshiping him. And that is shirk. And it is not just the dai, it is his extended family that is glorified and revered as 'royalty'. Do you think this is what dawoodi bohras are supposed to be? Unless you read history and question things you'll never find out. For the more perceptive, they needn't read anything to understand the truth. One look at any bohra gathering in the presence of the dai and one knows that there is something fundamentally wrong with this "system".

ultofanatic
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:34 am

Re: Come together to fight

#41

Unread post by ultofanatic » Sat May 29, 2010 3:03 am

Aptly explained by Humsafar.

The irony is these types of explanations have been given aplenty. A request to whoever is new here - please read up on the facts before posting anything.

Most of the discussions are the same old topics - some new guy comes along and derides the forum. The forum explains him and he runs away. In between some one starts to bark up the wrong tree and the gali galoch starts from both sides.

Lets grow up and talk and do something that is really going to be useful.

guy_sam2005
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:46 am

Re: Come together to fight

#42

Unread post by guy_sam2005 » Sat May 29, 2010 5:07 am

Smart wrote:@Oma
Let me add a couple of lines

Tu abde hain, kaam tera hai apni khaal dena,
Joote pehenne ko shehzade aur bhi hain
haasid hai tu,jaam hai tera hasad karna,
engineer ke alava chaatne ko aur bhi hai..............

guy_sam2005
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:46 am

Re: Come together to fight

#43

Unread post by guy_sam2005 » Sat May 29, 2010 5:09 am

ultofanatic wrote:If they think that this site is funny, their sense of funniness is really skewered.

But who cares what they think. We will post and discuss what we feel is right.

Do not get pulled into stupid conversations and keep replying to their nonsense. Ignore them. Let's carry our discussions forward. After all that is what this forum is for.

We need to come up with newer strategies. Newer ways are available for this.
yes lets keep the spirit of lies hatred and lealousy alive,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

guy_sam2005
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:46 am

Re: Come together to fight

#44

Unread post by guy_sam2005 » Sat May 29, 2010 5:11 am

humsafar,
ok fine dai is not a cult,,but you guys are against everything islam stands 4,u guys against dhadi,mataam,khatnaetc....

Smart
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Come together to fight

#45

Unread post by Smart » Sat May 29, 2010 6:34 am

guy_sam2005 wrote:
Smart wrote:@Oma
Let me add a couple of lines

Tu abde hain, kaam tera hai apni khaal dena,
Joote pehenne ko shehzade aur bhi hain
haasid hai tu,jaam hai tera hasad karna,
engineer ke alava chaatne ko aur bhi hai..............
I have not ever been a follower, let alone being a slave of Mr. Asgerali Engineer. How did you come to this conclusion? However, it is clear that you like to lick. I pity you and your thinking. If you that is your deen, then all I can say is "La iqraha fid deen".

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Come together to fight

#46

Unread post by SBM » Sat May 29, 2010 9:10 am

Guy Sam
I used to respect your postings but it seems that you have fallen into total disarray
In your last post you claim we do not believe in Islam and the reasons are we do not believe in Dadhi, Maatam, Dai and so
Since when Maatam became the part of Islam and for Dadhi, Anjami has been defending that issue and for that he has been called names
For your information Guy-Sam making Jooti of your Khaal and giving it to Syedna is not part of Islam.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Come together to fight

#47

Unread post by accountability » Sat May 29, 2010 2:22 pm

All the pro administrator contributor on this forum are missing one thing. Every system has to change, it has changed, evolved and reformed during the time. Change has happened in our community some 100 years ago. Syedna Taher saifuddin changed the nomenclature of our community, his and present Dai's administration has tried successfully to mantain status quo since then.
The whole doctorine of our ismaili faith is shrouded in secrecy, there are no genuine historical refrences to support the doctorine. To overcome this lackness questioning and cross refrencing is totally forbidden.
We can see from pro administration contributor's post. Instead of countering argument with argument, they will start labelling whoever asks for accountability and decency as non believer in general terms. If you question why malik ashtar bhai saheb had brush with IRS in USA. where did he get those millions of dollars to deposit in the first place, they will say you dont believe in quran islam dai matam hussain etc etc. so this need not to be answered.
If you ask where will Qaid Johar bhai saheb get the funds to finance 1500 crore bhindi bazar project, they will say you dont believe in quran and islam.
if you ask the reason of spending more than $10000.00 for an hour long helicopter trip from saifee mahal to malabar to inaugrate some police expo, they will say you dont believe in matam and hussain.
if you ask in a youtube video one bohra lady and her family is arguing with amil and jamat scoundrals for exorbitant wajebat, they will say you dont believe in dawat.
If you ask why the amil who was beaten by ladies for not performing marriage not punished they will say you are non believer.
If you ask why did not anjumane burhani toronto submit return, its charitable status revoked they will call you antagonist.
if you ask why did mississauga canada's amil did not relieve himself from duty when he was asked by syedna saheb's adminsitrtaion, and relinquish charge, while he was always preaching and ordering others to obey syedna saheb's command. they will say you non believer.
if all the above that I posted have nothing to do with relgion and we can reform the practice then let us do so . Becasue dong so will not only strengthen our faith but will also usher us in a more decent and humane environment.
This is what we want reformed.

rania
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:52 pm

Re: Come together to fight

#48

Unread post by rania » Sat May 29, 2010 2:45 pm

omabharti wrote:Guy Sam
I used to respect your postings but it seems that you have fallen into total disarray
Cry me a river FFS !

Probably guy_sam will be relieved that you have stopped respecting him , Imagine how scary it must be for someone to be told that he is respected by a hypocritical Sarah Palin fantasist ! :roll:

rania
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:52 pm

Re: Come together to fight

#49

Unread post by rania » Sat May 29, 2010 3:00 pm

accountability wrote:if all the above that I posted have nothing to do with relgion and we can reform the practice then let us do so . Becasue dong so will not only strengthen our faith but will also usher us in a more decent and humane environment.
This is what we want reformed.
Most of the examples that you have raised are related to money matters. ( I would have quoted your entire post but for some weird reason , I was issued a private warning from the Owner of the forum for quoting long posts ! :roll:
Have you had a similar experience ? :lol: )

Now discussing the points you have raised , the basic crux in the Bohra community is that you do not question the actions of Prophet , Imam or Dai.

Dai is Imam's Vicegerent. [ vice (Latin: in place of) + gerere (Latin: to carry on, conduct). from Wiki ]

Now you may not like the way your money is used.Fair enough. The simple solution will be to stop paying in the first place and then stop whinging about how other people use their money. :wink:

The majority ( I daresay , most of the people who pay ) have no problems with however the Dai wishes to use the money and I base this opinion on the fact that the amount of Wajebat coming into the system gets higher and higher every year ! ( You may call this ' fact ' as hearsay and dismiss it that it doesn't get higher every year. )

The money which is not yours shouldn't be your concern and if you are still paying into the system then you are a gullible fool according to your fellow reformists. :mrgreen:

Zeal
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:01 am

Re: Come together to fight

#50

Unread post by Zeal » Sat May 29, 2010 3:02 pm

Though Bohras have become computer savvy now, almost 90% of bohras don't know that the Progressives have a website. Their computer usage is limited to emailing and Malumaat of course. Let us create mailing lists.
to append to above ,

-get the mailing list - malumaat or the ejamaat d/b
-send the progressive site link to all abdes
-create a filter for all posts on reforms strictly ( can first go to admin who filters it)
-if the mass population of abdes starts visiting progressive site , which discusses only about the atrocities around the bohri world and also talks about the do's and dont's of Islam strictly and no crap , its surely going to make a difference
-there are hundreds out there waiting on that verge to cross the line...

but the message has to be definitely very clear and loud that the opposition is not about any body or the fatimi dawat but wrong practices that is prevaling and is growing each day.

rania
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:52 pm

Re: Come together to fight

#51

Unread post by rania » Sat May 29, 2010 3:20 pm

Zeal wrote:
Though Bohras have become computer savvy now, almost 90% of bohras don't know that the Progressives have a website. Their computer usage is limited to emailing and Malumaat of course. Let us create mailing lists.
to append to above ,

-get the mailing list - malumaat or the ejamaat d/b
-send the progressive site link to all abdes
-create a filter for all posts on reforms strictly ( can first go to admin who filters it)
-if the mass population of abdes starts visiting progressive site , which discusses only about the atrocities around the bohri world and also talks about the do's and dont's of Islam strictly and no crap , its surely going to make a difference
-there are hundreds out there waiting on that verge to cross the line...

but the message has to be definitely very clear and loud that the opposition is not about any body or the fatimi dawat but wrong practices that is prevaling and is growing each day.
It is ironic that in trying to change the system , you have to take help of the databases of the very administration you want to change ! :mrgreen:

If you filter ( pre-mod ) all the posts here , then I am afraid this forum will lose the likes of Al Zulfiqar who provide cheap entertainment to some losers over here ! :lol:

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Come together to fight

#52

Unread post by accountability » Sun May 30, 2010 12:06 am

Again you missed the point, I never said why or how did syedna saheb spend. this is not at all in question. and it is not regarding money mine or others. You did not read my post rightly. I said malik bhai saheb had probelms with IRS, why cant we question where did he get millions of dollars to deposit, because he is one of heads of dawat e hadiya americia. His known sources of income do not match the deposit he made.

how could qaid johar bhaisaheb be infalable to be asked, where would he get 1500 crore rupees for bhindi bazar project.
where is infalability in the youtube video where bohra lady his family is arguing with amil and jamat scounderalas.
where is infalability when bohra ladies are beating amil for not performing marriage in india.
where is infalability in not submitting return of toronto jamat, subsequently revoking of its charitable status. it is a criminal offence to collect under the name of revoked charity. how is that criminality infalable.
how is mississauga amil infalable, when being transferred refuses to obey syedna saheb's orders and sticks to the amalat on one pretext or other.
I said why can we not reform these misdoings, what it has to do with syedna saheb's infalability.

Having said that, quote one refrence from an authentic book or Quran, in which it is said that prophet, imam or dai are infalable.
I can give you atleast 10 examples when syedna saheb when delivering waaz skips the page and then after a while realizing goes back to the page he missed. If Dai is infalable he will not skip the page. Beacuse he cannot make mistakes.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Come together to fight

#53

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sun May 30, 2010 5:35 pm

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
- Arthur Schopenhauer

"Truth is so obscure in these times, and falsehood so established, that, unless we love the truth, we cannot know it."
- Blaise Pascal

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
- Voltaire

guy_sam2005
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:46 am

Re: Come together to fight

#54

Unread post by guy_sam2005 » Mon May 31, 2010 4:51 am

Zeal wrote:
Though Bohras have become computer savvy now, almost 90% of bohras don't know that the Progressives have a website. Their computer usage is limited to emailing and Malumaat of course. Let us create mailing lists.
to append to above ,

-get the mailing list - malumaat or the ejamaat d/b
-send the progressive site link to all abdes
-create a filter for all posts on reforms strictly ( can first go to admin who filters it)
-if the mass population of abdes starts visiting progressive site , which discusses only about the atrocities around the bohri world and also talks about the do's and dont's of Islam strictly and no crap , its surely going to make a difference
-there are hundreds out there waiting on that verge to cross the line...

but the message has to be definitely very clear and loud that the opposition is not about any body or the fatimi dawat but wrong practices that is prevaling and is growing each day.
means ull act like virus...why dont you try,we already have anti-vrus installed......your program will be in our recycle bin even before it can corrupt any files.........

ultofanatic
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:34 am

Re: Come together to fight

#55

Unread post by ultofanatic » Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:55 am

You can definitely remove the electronic viruses with the help of anti-virus. You can also remove the viruses in your body.

What about the invisible ones - those that do no have a physical state. Those that are in the head. No way to purge them.

ultofanatic
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:34 am

Re: Come together to fight

#56

Unread post by ultofanatic » Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:04 am

How can asking for your legal rights and suggesting things that will make a better administration make one qualify to be "Daawat na dushman" ? It is incomprehensible.

Doesn't everybody want a transparent administration & smooth trouble free community ?

Deep down there is a fear that reforms will bring down the income of the Kothar and collapse the whole thing. This unfounded fear is the fountain of all adaawat against all those who want change. This brings out the genie of "Daawat na dushman". The fact is there are no flesh and blood dushmans. Just the ill founded notion of an imagined opposition. Nobody is bothered what a minuscule community is doing. Let alone become their dushmans. The dushmans are within and need to be purged if we want to see any meaningful change in this community.