I am not sure if the actions of Prophet Mohammed could be classed as a ' Reform Movement ' . If anything , more likely it could be classed as ' Revolutionary Movement ' rather than Reform Movement !S. Insaf wrote:No reformist till dates has brought any disgrace to the community. No Reformist was made to publicly apologize for creating trouble on Allah’s land and riots that resulted in the deaths of several innocent persons and loss of property.
No reformist has brought disgrace to the community by violating exchange control laws, illegally transferring thousands of Shs. and being expelled from a country within 24 hours.
No Reformist has hit the newspaper head lines as “Imam of Smuggling”, “Holy Terror”, “Chronicle of Cruelty”, “A Law Unto Himself”, “Bohra Head- Darkness at Noon, “Government within Government” “Bohra Mulla’s Goonda Raj”, “Divine Terror” etc.
Decide who is apt for the title "And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the eart"!
Now talking of the social change. Change is always painful, especially in the Dawoodi Bohra Community.
Because it is community of traders who are more concern for their comfort and family life.
Because it is close-knit confined to the four walls of the community.
Because it is a unique community dominated by religious hierarchy which claims to be the sole-interpreter of its faith and traditions.
Because it is an inward-looking community.
Now taking about Reform. The reform is essential in any society as we want it or not, today every society is drastically under-going change due to changing world orders, shrinking universe, politics, blurring economic boundaries. But the vested interests in the Dawoodi Bohra Community, while taking most advantages of modern advancements for selves, are trying to promote the “Master and Slave” mentality of primitive ages in the community.
Change and Reform: The holy Prophet of Islam (pbuh) himself was a great Reformer of his time. In fact every prophet was a reformer of his time. When came to age the Prophet of Islam found an extremely disturbing situation in Mecca, the birth place of Islam. The most powerful and unshakable vested interests had developed in the then Meccan society while the majority supressed. A situation similar to that is prevailing in our Dawoodi Bohra Community today. Qur’an was revealed on the Prophet (pbuh) which condemns those who hoard wealth, silver and gold and do not spend the same among the poor and needy in the way of Allah. Quran warns: “Woe unto every slandering traducer, who has hoarded wealth and counts it, He thinks that his wealth will render him immortal. Nay, verily he will be flung to the Consuming One. Ah, what will convey unto these what the Consuming One! (It is) fire of Allah, kindled, which leaps up over the hearts (of men).” Qur’an thus gave a concept of Zakat and Baitul-Mall for just distribution of wealth among the weaker sections of the society. A vast majority was suffering under exploitation while wealth of the society was concentrated in few hands. Therefore he proposed an alternative social set-up which was just and non-exploitative and opposed to concentration of wealth in few hands.
Initially the Prophet (pbuh) and his handful followers were in minority pitted against the powerful arrogant establishment of Meccan rich. The tiny bands of Muslims could hardly wage an armed struggle against the Kuffars (disbelievers) and they were severely prosecuted and the Kuffar had declared “Baraat” (social Boycott against them to pressurize them to stop challenging their authority. Islam encourages continuous struggle against the powerful (mastakbirun) by the weak (mustad’fin) in the society. Thus the Prophet of Islam (pbuh) goes to the extent of saying that “The best of Jihad is of him who speak a just word before a tyrannical authority”. In Qur’an Zulm (oppression) is condemned in the strongest possible terms. Yet the darbari ulema generally have interpreted the Qur’an saying that “Believes, obey Allah and the Apostle and those in authority among you”, that the believers are required to obey the authority (Ruler, Imam, Dai) even if he is tyrant and wrongdoer. These ulema have overlooked the Qur’an’s actual spirit which exhorts the people to be just and rule justly:
“If you judge, judge between them with equity. Lo! Allah loves the equitable.” Thus Allah makes it clear that his vicegerency is not for unjust and tyrants Rulers, Imam, Dai:-
“And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He sais: Lo I have appointed thee a leader for the mankind. (Abraham) said: And my offspring (will there be leaders from them), He said: My connant includes not the wrongdoers (zalims).” 14
Who are believers (Mumineen) and who are non-believers (Kuffars)? Bohras are made to understand those who consider Syedna as Dai are Mumineen and those who oppose him are Kuffars or Munafiqs. This belief is contrary to Quranic injunctions. The Quran says, “And We sent not unto any township a warner, but its affluent ones declared: Lo! We are disbelievers in that which you bring to us.” 13 and warns these wealthy one “It is not your wealth nor your children that will bring to you near Us, but he who believes and does good (he draws near). 14
Thus it is very clearly indicated in the Quran that the real unbelievers (Kuffar) are those who accumulate riches and perpetuate injustice in the society.
The small group of the Prophet migrated to Ethiopia and Medina. Then the holy Prophet head to fight several wars with his opponents that must have disturbed the so-called “peace” in the then unjust society.
In Medina there were Jews, Pegan Arabs, and Muslim immigrants. The Prophet created a political community in Medina by drawing up an agreement, (a Constitution or Sahifah of Medina) with different warring groups. This “Sahifah” was in fact a revolutionary document for Arabs as it allowed the people of Medina to follow their individual religion and retain their properties. Thus the Sahifah laid down the foundation of the first a community in Medina in which different tribes, people of different religions and other groups were equal partners in the decision making. This contract was rooted in the Arab traditions but remained democratic both in spirit and practice. It reflected the political genius of its author, the Prophet. It was beginning of a cautious and tactful reform.
This is how a Reform movement starts.
And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the eart
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
I would to like see the scans of - 15 August 1968 -The Nationlist - Nairobi if you can indeed make it happen !S. Insaf wrote:You may confirm from the followings:
Bohra Leader Expelled for illegal transfer of Shs. 65000 - Staff Reporter - 15 August 1968 - The Nationlist - Nairobi
Mullaji's Goonda Raj - by Staff Reporter - Jaipur - 24 Nov. 1974- Partpakhs (Hindi)
Darkness at Noon - by Deril D'Mento - 22 April 1979 - Free Press Journal Bombay
Chronicle of Cruelty - by Staff Reporter - 16-31 May 1979 - Today - Bombay/Delhi
The Holy Terror - by Rajni Bakshi - 21-27 August 1983 SUNDAY -Calcutta
A Law Unto Himself - by Ivan Fera - 13-19 November 1983 - Illustrated Weekly of India - Bombay
The Holy Terror Strikes Again - by Nikhil Lakshaman - 12 April 1984 - Illustrated Weekly of India - Bombay
Mllaji's Hawala Connection - Vijaya Venniyoor - 6 Sept. 22 Oct 1984 - Bombay Magazine - Bombay
Dawood Baugh Land Sale Fraud - Staff Reporter - 14 April 1985 - Clarity - Bombay
The Aurocratic Mulla - Burhanuddin - by Staff Reporter 22 Aug. 6 Sept. 1986 Bombay Magazine - Bombay
Scaning these and putting on boad can be done if you are not satisfied.
Also these headlines mean nothing because someone from the other side can post many articles praising Syedna.
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
You are on very thin ice here !S.Insaf wrote:No reformist till dates has brought any disgrace to the community. No Reformist was made to publicly apologize for creating trouble on Allah’s land and riots that resulted in the deaths of several innocent persons and loss of property.
Do you condone the violence on Dawoodi Bohras by other sects of Muslims ? Do you feel people of those other sects were justified in killing innocent people and loss of property ?
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
Oxford Dictionary defines "Revolution" as: Any fundamental change or reversal of conditions. How does it deffer from change and reform?
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
' Fundamental change ' is the key difference between Reform Movement and Revolutionary Movement !S. Insaf wrote:Oxford Dictionary defines "Revolution" as: Any fundamental change or reversal of conditions. How does it deffer from change and reform?
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
Which Muslim was the instigator of that riot? Cause and effect - So what was the cause?
The riot between Bohras and Muslims took place as result of certain unwise utterances of the instigator. Which he himself has accepted in his apology. He could have apologized immediately and restored peace. But he was more concerned for his title of “infallible” and pulled it for almost a week angering more and more Muslims thus causing death and destruction on Allah’s land.
The riot between Bohras and Muslims took place as result of certain unwise utterances of the instigator. Which he himself has accepted in his apology. He could have apologized immediately and restored peace. But he was more concerned for his title of “infallible” and pulled it for almost a week angering more and more Muslims thus causing death and destruction on Allah’s land.
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
So basically narrowing it down in blunt terms , you condone violence ?S. Insaf wrote:Which Muslim was the instigator of that riot? Cause and effect - So what was the cause?
The riot between Bohras and Muslims took place as result of certain unwise utterances of the instigator. Which he himself has accepted in his apology. He could have apologized immediately and restored peace. But he was more concerned for his title of “infallible” and pulled it for almost a week angering more and more Muslims thus causing death and destruction on Allah’s land.
You feel those people did nothing wrong in killing innocents and loss of property ?
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
Br. S. Insaf,
That is logic that you cannot argue with. Ten times more solid than your logic.rania wrote:So basically narrowing it down in blunt terms , you condone violence ?S. Insaf wrote:Which Muslim was the instigator of that riot? Cause and effect - So what was the cause?
The riot between Bohras and Muslims took place as result of certain unwise utterances of the instigator. Which he himself has accepted in his apology. He could have apologized immediately and restored peace. But he was more concerned for his title of “infallible” and pulled it for almost a week angering more and more Muslims thus causing death and destruction on Allah’s land.
You feel those people did nothing wrong in killing innocents and loss of property ?
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
You could check with The Nationalist office, they might have a copy in their archivesrania wrote:
I would to like see the scans of - 15 August 1968 -The Nationlist - Nairobi if you can indeed make it happen !
True. So let's have the headlines praising the Sayedna, then.rania wrote:Also these headlines mean nothing because someone from the other side can post many articles praising Syedna.
And just a suggestion, can you go easy on the smileys?
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
It's just a matter of semantics. The crucial thing is to make things better - reform or revolution are different methods of bringing about change for the better.I am not sure if the actions of Prophet Mohammed could be classed as a ' Reform Movement ' . If anything , more likely it could be classed as ' Revolutionary Movement ' rather than Reform Movement !
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
Excuse me did I ask for you to give me advice on how I should get a copy for the Nationalist Nairobi Edition of 15 August '68 ?Humsafar wrote:You could check with The Nationalist office, they might have a copy in their archivesrania wrote:
I would to like see the scans of - 15 August 1968 -The Nationlist - Nairobi if you can indeed make it happen !
The Man offered to post the scans and I have requested a particular Newspaper's clippings. You got a problem with that ? Or oh wait , I get it now you are here to divert the issue being discussed.
The recent ones from India praising the Syedna on Mumbai Rehabilitation Project could make a start I suppose.But I wonder why you ask as you have already confirmed the newspapers headlines mean nothing !Humsafar wrote:True. So let's have the headlines praising the Sayedna, then.
Ain't gonna happen.Humsafar wrote:And just a suggestion, can you go easy on the smileys?
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
No they aren't always change for the better.You need to read up on your historyHumsafar wrote:It's just a matter of semantics. The crucial thing is to make things better - reform or revolution are different methods of bringing about change for the better.I am not sure if the actions of Prophet Mohammed could be classed as a ' Reform Movement ' . If anything , more likely it could be classed as ' Revolutionary Movement ' rather than Reform Movement !
Perhaps History is not really your forte if you feel it is only a matter of semantics when there are gross dissimilarities between the two movements.
Last edited by rania on Thu May 27, 2010 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
My apologies, I missed that.The Man offered to post the scans and I have requested a particular Newspaper's clippings.
Did I?But I wonder why you ask as you have already confirmed the newspapers headlines mean nothing !
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
Apology accepted.Humsafar wrote:My apologies, I missed that.The Man offered to post the scans and I have requested a particular Newspaper's clippings.
Of course you did.Humsafar wrote:Did I?But I wonder why you ask as you have already confirmed the newspapers headlines mean nothing !
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
Okay, I did know you like splitting hairs!!! Actually I confirmed that "someone from the other side can post many articles praising Syedna", Not that headline are useless. But in any case, the worth of a headline depends on the content: some are articles are newsworthy and some are paid for. And most of the articles referred by Insaf bhai are/were newsworthy.
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
Progressives call their struggle a 'reform' movement. Certain bad things - well documented and much discussed - perpetrated by the Dai's administration has been plaguing our community. We reformists want to end those bad things and make things better. This is the issue we are concerned about. Please let's not confuse this with semantics. And if history is your forte you may want to delve into the history of our Dais and Dawat - and see how things have changed.Perhaps History is not really your forte if you feel it is only a matter of semantics when there are gross dissimilarities between the two movements.
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Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
Humsafar wrote:Progressives call their struggle a 'reform' movement. Certain bad things - well documented and much discussed - perpetrated by the Dai's administration has been plaguing our community. We reformists want to end those bad things and make things better. This is the issue we are concerned about. Please let's not confuse this with semantics. And if history is your forte you may want to delve into the history of our Dais and Dawat - and see how things have changed.Perhaps History is not really your forte if you feel it is only a matter of semantics when there are gross dissimilarities between the two movements.
what bad things are u talking about? asking to wear hijab to ur women and beard to men? or matame Hussain?
if this things are bad things for you then i am sorry for you.
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Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
ya it has been said a lot for ur maibaap.engineeranajmi wrote:And many bad things are written and said about the Shaitan as well.many bad things were written and said even for prophet..................
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Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
it depends on which side of the bridge you are.....bad things were also written for winston churchill,lincoln,luther king,mandela,ghandi etc.....anajmi wrote:incredible,
Just because bad things are written about someone doesn't mean that they are not bad. Bad things are written about Shaitan because he is bad. Bad things are written about Saddam because he was bad. Bad things are written about Hitler because he was bad. Bad things are written about Sauron because he is bad. Similarly bad things are written about the Syedna because he is bad.
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Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
u need a identity first even to get disgrace...................rania wrote:You are on very thin ice here !S.Insaf wrote:No reformist till dates has brought any disgrace to the community. No Reformist was made to publicly apologize for creating trouble on Allah’s land and riots that resulted in the deaths of several innocent persons and loss of property.
Do you condone the violence on Dawoodi Bohras by other sects of Muslims ? Do you feel people of those other sects were justified in killing innocent people and loss of property ?
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Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
its easy if u just buy any newspaper from the town huzurala visits..u can read on front page...........have a good read pal..........and if u can find a few weeks ols papers of rajkot jamnagar etc..ull have enough to read.........u dont have to search black and white era archives for that....Humsafar wrote:You could check with The Nationalist office, they might have a copy in their archivesrania wrote:
I would to like see the scans of - 15 August 1968 -The Nationlist - Nairobi if you can indeed make it happen !
True. So let's have the headlines praising the Sayedna, then.rania wrote:Also these headlines mean nothing because someone from the other side can post many articles praising Syedna.
And just a suggestion, can you go easy on the smileys?
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Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
and ofcourse paid by him tooo....Humsafar wrote:Okay, I did know you like splitting hairs!!! Actually I confirmed that "someone from the other side can post many articles praising Syedna", Not that headline are useless. But in any case, the worth of a headline depends on the content: some are articles are newsworthy and some are paid for. And most of the articles referred by Insaf bhai are/were newsworthy.
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Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
nothing has changed,every dai zamaan was marked by dushmans of dawaat calling themselves reformists in other words...you guys are burhani era dushmans.ofcourse history will remember you,,but not in good flavour.........Humsafar wrote:Progressives call their struggle a 'reform' movement. Certain bad things - well documented and much discussed - perpetrated by the Dai's administration has been plaguing our community. We reformists want to end those bad things and make things better. This is the issue we are concerned about. Please let's not confuse this with semantics. And if history is your forte you may want to delve into the history of our Dais and Dawat - and see how things have changed.Perhaps History is not really your forte if you feel it is only a matter of semantics when there are gross dissimilarities between the two movements.
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Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the earth, they say, 'we are but reformats'.Humsafar wrote: Progressives call their struggle a 'reform' movement. Certain bad things - well documented and much discussed - perpetrated by the Dai's administration has been plaguing our community. We reformists want to end those bad things and make things better. This is the issue we are concerned about. Please let's not confuse this with semantics. And if history is your forte you may want to delve into the history of our Dais and Dawat - and see how things have changed.
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
Next time you want to quote me think twice before making a fool of yourself !Humsafar wrote:Progressives call their struggle a 'reform' movement. Certain bad things - well documented and much discussed - perpetrated by the Dai's administration has been plaguing our community. We reformists want to end those bad things and make things better. This is the issue we are concerned about. Please let's not confuse this with semantics.Perhaps History is not really your forte if you feel it is only a matter of semantics when there are gross dissimilarities between the two movements.
In my conversation with S.Insaf , never once did we talk about Progressive's Reform Movement.We were talking about him labeling Prophet's actions as starting a Reform Movement to which I replied it is more apt to call it Revolutionary movement !
But then aren't you all for ' Change ' ? I do not understand your hypocritical stance in your whinging about wanting to change but then complaining about change in the first place. Add to that you feel every reform and revolution movement are change for the better and we have the most confused person on this forum in you ! Bravo !Humsafar wrote: And if history is your forte you may want to delve into the history of our Dais and Dawat - and see how things have changed.
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
Again, logic that is ten times more solid than anything else I have ever heard. If you haven't gotten robbed, then getting robbed is a change. Perfect logic.wanting to change but then complaining about change in the first place.
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
Dear rania,rania wrote:I would to like see the scans of - 15 August 1968 -The Nationlist - Nairobi if you can indeed make it happen !
As per your request here is the copy of The Nationalist - Nairobi - 15 August 1968. The News-Article was written by the Editor Mr. Gorge Gitthi himself. Also please see the Expulsion Order by the Tanzania Gov.
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
Thank you S.Insaf for posting those images. This will put a lot of bullshit being circulated on this forum to a rest.
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
Labels do not matter. To classify change as this or that is idle talk.rania wrote:....We were talking about him labeling Prophet's actions as starting a Reform Movement to which I replied it is more apt to call it Revolutionary movement !
anajmi has already commented on your impeccable logic. I'll only add that you're too busy taking everything literally, splitting hair and spreading smileys like confetti to understand the context of "change" one is talking about.But then aren't you all for ' Change ' ? I do not understand your hypocritical stance in your whinging about wanting to change but then complaining about change in the first place. Add to that you feel every reform and revolution movement are change for the better and we have the most confused person on this forum in you ! Bravo !
Re: And when it is said to them, create not disorder on the
Can I ask - circulated by whom??This will put a lot of bullshit being circulated on this forum to a rest.