ya syyeda shoda and maheh

[anajmi]

Mubarak,

Tell me, do they have pictures of halal animals performing ruku and sujood on that website?

[anajmi]

I do not want to get into arguing everything that is said on that website because I can play the devil's advocate on pretty much every point. So I will counter only 1

It says that Hazrat Ali was the first male to accept Islam hence he is a better companion than the others. He was only 10 years old when he did that.

As per quotes from porus, children who believe in Islam do so because they are brainwashed by their parents. Also, at that age, children normally do what their parents tell them to do without much critical thinking because they are simply incapable of that. They rely on their parents and elders to teach them and the society hopes that the elders are teaching the right things to their children. So either Hazrat Ali simply followed in the footsteps of the prophet (saw) because he was living with the prophet (saw) or was brainwashed by him.

Hazrat Abu Bakr however was a free thinking adult with money and power. And he was the first adult male to accept Islam.

So we can continue arguing and no one will be better off for it. You will never see any Sunni arguing which companion was better. Shias do this because the bottom line is that shias are idol worshippers and their idols are Hazrat Ali and his family. Sunnis have attained such a level of maturity that they can respect both Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Aisha. Shias, however are shooting themselves in the foot by disrespecting some in order to elevate the others to a higher status which leads them to commit shirk.

[porus]

So either Hazrat Ali simply followed in the footsteps of the prophet (saw) because he was living with the prophet (saw) or was brainwashed by him.

Prophet has mentioned superior qualities of Ali in several hadiths according to Sunni sources as related by abubakr.org.

If anajmi disputes those Sunni hadiths, then he should point out the mistakes in those hadiths. My opinion about children adopting their parents' viewpoint may have applied to Ali when he was a child. However, according to hadiths, Prophet continued to proclaim Ali's merits until he breathed his last.

How anyone can take my opinion as evidence to refute the Prophet is beyond my understanding.

This is an attempt by anajmi to divert attention from the arguments on abubakr.org to silly issues like animals performing ruku and Prophet brainwashing his children. Would anajmi prevent sending his children to Prophet fearing that he might brainwash them?

[anajmi]

porus,

You failed to see my point. There is no reason to compare one companion to another unless you want to justify worshipping of one while cursing the other.

Besides, prophet has mentioned superior qualities of Abu Bakr and Umar as well. For eg. the Prophet (saw) referred to Hazrat Abu Bakr as Al Siddiq - The most truthful. Does that mean that the other companions were less truthful? That would be accurate if we were to follow shia logic!!

How anyone can take my opinion as evidence to refute the Prophet is beyond my understanding.

Just wanted to show the quality of your opinions.

[porus]

porus,

You failed to see my point. There is no reason to compare one companion to another unless you want to justify worshipping of one while cursing the other.

abubakr.org compares Umar and Ali with reference to an ayat in the Quran which asks this question. "Who would you follow, the one who is guided or the one who guides" It juxtaposed the saying of Umar: "Were it not for Ali, Umar would have perished."

Comparison between Ali and other companions is fully justified to confirm Prophet's successor in the light of the Quran.

[anajmi]

Comparison between Ali and other companions is fully justified to confirm Prophet's successor in the light of the Quran.

Shias need to make up their mind. Either Hazrat Ali was the successor or he was not. If he was not the successor then Abu Bakr was the successor. Period. Shoulda coulda woulda is immaterial. If Hazrat Ali was the successor (foundation of Imamat, Imamat etc etc), then too there is no need for comparison because Hazrat Abu Bakr isn't competing for Imamat. That is the reason why Sunnis do not compare them. Besides, in the light of the Quran, there is no successor needed after Prophet Muhammad (saw). Prophet Muhammad (saw) was the last prophet. The story about Imamat succeeding prophethood is just that, a story, without any basis in the Quran. Teachers are needed in all ages but successor is not. And this is in the light of the Quran.

[anajmi]

It juxtaposed the saying of Umar: "Were it not for Ali, Umar would have perished."

Again, this just goes to show the support that Hazrat Ali gave Hazrat Umar and the respect that Hazrat Umar had for Hazrat Ali, something that the Sunnis have learnt well from Hazrat Umar. What have the shias learnt from Hazrat Ali? Anyway, as far as Islam and its teachings are concerned, the succession the shias cry about so much doesn't make an iota of difference. The difference is only for those who worship Hazrat Ali. This is the question they are still trying to answer, how is it that the one they worship got along so well with those who actually led the Ummah before he did. How can the one worthy of worship have a status of supporter? So they start cursing the first three caliphs and call them usurpers.

[porus]

anajmi,

abubakr.org does not claim Shia to be worshipers of Ali and his family. That is your claim and you are welcome to it. The point was to let you and other Wahhabis to consider the Sunni hadiths that the site has marshaled and refute them if you can. In fact, the site has addressed Abu Bakr, Umar and Aisha with utmost respect.

I do not see the point in carrying on this discussion. Consider yourself a victor. You convinced yourself. Congratulations.

Most people here do not need any convincing and I do not see any value in wasting my time with you and Muslim First. You are just two here and your opinions will not make much of a dent on Bohra or Shia beliefs. They have persevered in them for 14 centuries despite onslaughts by people like you.

[anajmi]

Who would you follow, the one who is guided or the one who guides

Can you please give me the surah and ayah number for the above?

[anajmi]

porus,

You are just two here and your opinions will not make much of a dent on Bohra or Shia beliefs. They have persevered in them for 14 centuries despite onslaughts by people like you.

Just this thought by you is extremely flattering, otherwise, even the jews have been around for 14 centuries (and many more) despite much of the Quran speaking out against them. Who lives and who goes is a decision that only Allah makes. But just because you guys are going to be around, doesn't mean that I should now stop pointing out the idiocy of your beliefs.

Let me get into one more point raised by the web site (which is extremely irritating by the way. I still haven't figured out a way to pause or to move back and forward). It talks about a hadith where the prophet (saw) said that whoever angers Hazrat Fatimah, angers the prophet (saw). Does any shia know the context behind this hadith? Who was it that had angered Hazrat Fatima for the prophet (saw) to say this? It was Hazrat Ali!!

[Muslim First]

The Prophet said:

“Allah, Allah! Fear Him with regard to my Sahabah! Do not make them targets after me! Whoever loves them loves them with his love for me; and whoever hates them hates them with his hatred for me. Whoever bears enmity for them, bears enmity for me; and whoever bears enmity for me, bears enmity for Allah. Whoever bears enmity for Allah is about to perish!”

(Narrated from Abdallah ibn Mughaffal by Al-Tirmidhi by Ahmad with three good chains in his Musnad, al-Bukhari in his Tarikh, al-Bayhaqi in Shu`ab al-Iman, and others. Al-Suyuti declared it hasan in his Jami` al-Saghir #1442).

Continue discussion here

abubakar.org
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=5194

[anajmi]

Now, let us find out why Hazrat Fatima was angry with Hazrat Abu Bakr.

She was angry because Hazrat Abu Bakr refused to give her a piece of land that belonged to the prophet (saw) and Hazrat Fatima claimed as her inheritance. Why didn't Hazrat Abu Bakr give it to her? Simply because he was following the teachings of the prophet (saw). The prophet (saw) has stated that the prophets do not leave behind anything as inheritance. All that they leave behind is charity. So Hazrat Abu Bakr used that piece of land for charity. Now, Hazrat Fatima was angry with Hazrat Abu Bakr and her anger may not have been justified. Do we see the Sunni cursing Hazrat Fatima? Or denying the hadith which claims that she is leader of the women in Jannah? NO!! Sunnis still believe her to be the leader and still respect her just as much. Then what is the difference? The difference is that unlike the shias, the sunnis do not worship Hazrat Abu Bakr and hence as a consequence do not have to start cursing Hazrat Fatima (ra).

[incredible]

Now, let us find out why Hazrat Fatima was angry with Hazrat Abu Bakr.

She was angry because Hazrat Abu Bakr refused to give her a piece of land that belonged to the prophet (saw) and Hazrat Fatima claimed as her inheritance. Why didn't Hazrat Abu Bakr give it to her? Simply because he was following the teachings of the prophet (saw). The prophet (saw) has stated that the prophets do not leave behind anything as inheritance. All that they leave behind is charity. So Hazrat Abu Bakr used that piece of land for charity. Now, Hazrat Fatima was angry with Hazrat Abu Bakr and her anger may not have been justified. Do we see the Sunni cursing Hazrat Fatima? Or denying the hadith which claims that she is leader of the women in Jannah? NO!! Sunnis still believe her to be the leader and still respect her just as much. Then what is the difference? The difference is that unlike the shias, the sunnis do not worship Hazrat Abu Bakr and hence as a consequence do not have to start cursing Hazrat Fatima (ra).

It was not just a matter of piece of land but it was that abu baker took away rights of Ali(a.s)

[anajmi]

It was not just a matter of piece of land but it was that abu baker took away rights of Ali(a.s)

Can you quote a specific Sunni Hadith that says this? You can go through abubakr.org one more time.

[aqs]

Now, let us find out why Hazrat Fatima was angry with Hazrat Abu Bakr.

She was angry because Hazrat Abu Bakr refused to give her a piece of land that belonged to the prophet (saw) and Hazrat Fatima claimed as her inheritance. Why didn't Hazrat Abu Bakr give it to her? Simply because he was following the teachings of the prophet (saw). The prophet (saw) has stated that the prophets do not leave behind anything as inheritance. All that they leave behind is charity. So Hazrat Abu Bakr used that piece of land for charity. Now, Hazrat Fatima was angry with Hazrat Abu Bakr and her anger may not have been justified. Do we see the Sunni cursing Hazrat Fatima? Or denying the hadith which claims that she is leader of the women in Jannah? NO!! Sunnis still believe her to be the leader and still respect her just as much. Then what is the difference? The difference is that unlike the shias, the sunnis do not worship Hazrat Abu Bakr and hence as a consequence do not have to start cursing Hazrat Fatima (ra).

@Anajmi,

Land of Fadak was gifted by Prophet(saw) to Moulatona Fatema(as) while he was alive, so it did'nt belong to things left by Prophet(saw) after his death, this is the sole reason why fatema(as) demanded the land to be handed over as it was not the part of inheritance and should not be included in charity.

[profastian]

Now, let us find out why Hazrat Fatima was angry with Hazrat Abu Bakr.

'Hazrat' Abu Bakr
What a laughable notion.

[profastian]

Disrespect to any revered personality of any religion is unethical.

Satan is a 'revered personality' of the satanist cult. Should he be respected by people of all faiths?

[Muslim First]

'Hazrat' Abu Bakr
What a laughable notion

Laugh all you want but The Prophet said:

“Allah, Allah! Fear Him with regard to my Sahabah! Do not make them targets after me! Whoever loves them loves them with his love for me; and whoever hates them hates them with his hatred for me. Whoever bears enmity for them, bears enmity for me; and whoever bears enmity for me, bears enmity for Allah. Whoever bears enmity for Allah is about to perish!”

(Narrated from Abdallah ibn Mughaffal by Al-Tirmidhi by Ahmad with three good chains in his Musnad, al-Bukhari in his Tarikh, al-Bayhaqi in Shu`ab al-Iman, and others. Al-Suyuti declared it hasan in his Jami` al-Saghir #1442).

Wasalaam

[incredible]

'Hazrat' Abu Bakr
What a laughable notion

Laugh all you want but The Prophet said:

“Allah, Allah! Fear Him with regard to my Sahabah! Do not make them targets after me! Whoever loves them loves them with his love for me; and whoever hates them hates them with his hatred for me. Whoever bears enmity for them, bears enmity for me; and whoever bears enmity for me, bears enmity for Allah. Whoever bears enmity for Allah is about to perish!”

(Narrated from Abdallah ibn Mughaffal by Al-Tirmidhi by Ahmad with three good chains in his Musnad, al-Bukhari in his Tarikh, al-Bayhaqi in Shu`ab al-Iman, and others. Al-Suyuti declared it hasan in his Jami` al-Saghir #1442).

Wasalaam

I agree may be Muhammed(saw) stated above words,but remember same Muhammed(saw) said who ever bears enmity for my daughter and makes her angry,bears enmity for me,and who ever bears enmity for me,bears enmity for Allah.whoever bears enmity for Allah is about to perish!

abubakar,usmaan and umar are one who made fatema(as) angry.and those who praise this munafiqun deserves to be perish.

[porus]

Land of Fadak was gifted by Prophet(saw) to Moulatona Fatema(as) while he was alive, so it did'nt belong to things left by Prophet(saw) after his death, this is the sole reason why fatema(as) demanded the land to be handed over as it was not the part of inheritance and should not be included in charity.

aqs,

You have taken the Wahhabi bait and fell in the trap set by them. As you write, Prophet had gifted the land of Fadak to Fatima and it was actually her property. Abu Bakr, true to form, usurped it. This is your defense of Fatima?

You just accepted the Wahhabi premise that Abu Bakr, al-Siddiq, the truthful one, truthfully reported that Prophet had told him (Abu Bakr) that Prophets do not leave inheritance. Both abubakr.org and answering-ansar.org have extensive Sunni references to indicate that al-Siddiq made up the quote he attributed to the Prophet.

In fact, Abu Bakr provided Prophet's widows generously from Prophet's estate. He was particularly generous to his daughter, Aisha.

Another hadith which makes a similar claim is attributed to Aisha, al-siddiqa, the truthful one. She told other widows of the Prophet that their husband, as a Prophet, did not leave any inheritance for them. She then proceeds to send Uthman to her father to demand her inheritance.

Leaving aside Aisha's contradictory hadiths, what credence can you give to Abu Bakr, al-Siddiq? He contradicts the Quran openly. abubakr.org and answering-ansar point out that Prophets Dawood, Yaqub and Zakariya left inheritance and they quote the ayats. Now, would prophet go against the Quran? Was the truthful one telling the truth? You decide.

I asked Wahhabis to challenge the Sunni hadiths that abubakr.org uses for its arguments. Their response was to ridicule by asking if animals go into ruku and sujood and if Prophet brainwashed Ali.

But just because you guys are going to be around, doesn't mean that I should now stop pointing out the idiocy of your beliefs.

This shows the real intent of Wahhabis. They are interested in pointing out that the Shia are idiots. If that is their agenda, why engage in any discussion with them?

Does any shia know the context behind this hadith? Who was it that had angered Hazrat Fatima for the prophet (saw) to say this? It was Hazrat Ali!!

Did Fatima stop talking to Ali after she is supposed to have become angry with him? Like she stopped talking to Abu Bakr and Umar? Was Fatima not aware that Ali was Ahlul Bayt and without faults? Just another Wahhabi lie. Par for the course.

For a long time on this board, I have maintained that Wahhabis hate Ali. They will deny that of course. Their anger against Ali rises to the same extent that the Shia praise him. Instead of arguing against their own hadiths, they will seek diversionary tactics, like the charge that the Shia worship Ali and that all their beliefs are idiotic.

If you guys leap to your standard defenses, you give strength to their unworthy attacks. I suggest you ignore Wahhabis directly. Especially, any hadith which indicates Prophet profusely praising the Sahabas should be taken with a pinch of salt. Ignore MF, Wahhabi Lite.

[porus]

Abu Bakr, al-Siddiq

I would like to cast doubt on any hadith which states that Prophet gave the title al-Siddiq to Abu Bakr.

Quran attributes this word to Prophet Yusuf. I doubt if Muhmmad would want to use the same word for Abu Bakr.

[incredible]

Abu Bakr, al-Siddiq

I would like to cast doubt on any hadith which states that Prophet gave the title al-Siddiq to Abu Bakr.

Quran attributes this word to Prophet Yusuf. I doubt if Muhmmad would want to use the same word for Abu Bakr.

he didnt had any quality to be called al-siddiq

[accountability]

well guys, take a breather.

[profastian]

'Hazrat' Abu Bakr
What a laughable notion

Laugh all you want but The Prophet said:

“Allah, Allah! Fear Him with regard to my Sahabah! Do not make them targets after me! Whoever loves them loves them with his love for me; and whoever hates them hates them with his hatred for me. Whoever bears enmity for them, bears enmity for me; and whoever bears enmity for me, bears enmity for Allah. Whoever bears enmity for Allah is about to perish!”

(Narrated from Abdallah ibn Mughaffal by Al-Tirmidhi by Ahmad with three good chains in his Musnad, al-Bukhari in his Tarikh, al-Bayhaqi in Shu`ab al-Iman, and others. Al-Suyuti declared it hasan in his Jami` al-Saghir #1442).

Wasalaam

Yes but i don't count Abu Bakr as Sahaba. So it doesn' t apply to me

[Muslim First]

I have opend another discussion forum i Islam today.

Those interested in discussing succession should continue there.

Go to

abubakar.org

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=5194

.

[anajmi]

It is laughable that this entire shia argument is based on hadith reported by Bukhari. The same Bukhari who is being asked to be douted. That is the problem with the Shias. They are confused. They have picked pieces from here and there and created an entirely fictional story and have started believing in it and as a result have converted themselves into idol worshippers.

[anajmi]

In fact, Abu Bakr provided Prophet's widows generously from Prophet's estate. He was particularly generous to his daughter, Aisha.

It is news to me that the prophet (saw) had a lot of estate from which his wives received generously. I've always heard that the prophet (saw) never had much and what little he had he would give away if someone asked. More stories??

[anajmi]

Both abubakr.org and answering-ansar.org have extensive Sunni references to indicate that al-Siddiq made up the quote he attributed to the Prophet.

And that is the job of these websites which on the one hand promote idol worship and on the other hand promote hatred for sahabas of the prophet. So much so that they have even labelled the prophet himself a lustful person who married for the sake of his own desires and have spread hatred for the mothers of the believers.

What would you call a person who marries a 6 year old out of his own desires? Or even if we accept that Hazrat Aisha was of legal age (13? 18?) what would you still call the prophet if he married out of his own desire?

These are the kinds of beliefs that these shias have accepted for themselves simply because of their desire to worship Hazrat Ali and his family.

[anajmi]

Applying the shia tact to answering-ansar, here is something interesting,

This website argues for the practice of mutah and gives Quranic evidence for Muta. Here are some of the reasons they give for justifying muta

Masturbation is a widespread problem
There are thousands of video centers supplying pornographic movies.
Pakistani cinemas show porn movies.
There are 'red light areas' in almost every city

And as far as inheritance is concerned, the responses are far too confusing for anyone to get a clear picture. The author applies the same shia tact of accepting a piece which is beneficial and rejecting that which is not even if they come from the same source, not because of its validity but because of the author's own predetermined set of beliefs.

[anajmi]

@Anajmi,

Land of Fadak was gifted by Prophet(saw) to Moulatona Fatema(as) while he was alive, so it did'nt belong to things left by Prophet(saw) after his death, this is the sole reason why fatema(as) demanded the land to be handed over as it was not the part of inheritance and should not be included in charity.

aqs,

Please provide evidence for the above from Sunni Hadith. Also, if the land was given to Hazrat Fatima, then why did she have to go back to Hazrat Abu Bakr to ask for it? Did Hazrat Abu Bakr build a house for himself on it? Or did he eat from its produce without sharing it with anyone?