Important Questions urgent help Out there!

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Al-Uqul

Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#1

Unread post by Al-Uqul » Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:21 am

Salamu alaykoum everyone

i am a Former salafi confused but wanting to convert to ismaili

some ismaili always ignore my questions it really Strange

This thread is for ismailis and not sunnis i would appreciate if the ex-bohra or sunnis did not psot reply because it is unneccassery headache and diverges the subject

1.do the Bohra allow Mutah?it is proven to be allowed
http://www.answering-ansar.org/.../mutah/en/index.php - by quran and sunnah so this confusing to me

2.what is ment by the Ten intellects creating the wolrd For Allah?
is this literal or metaphorical ?

3.do bohra like beleive Mawla ali created the universe?

4.do you all Beleive Isa(a.s)Died on the Cross?or died?or went into Satr?

5.when Qa3im al-qiyamah comes will He come with isa(a.s)?

5.What is prooof that imam musta3al was Wasi of al-mustanser billah?

6.do bohra beleive in Al-Raja3a?

i pray Allah bestow his Bounties on the one who helps me to right path
AAli muhammad
W.S

porus
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#2

Unread post by porus » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:10 pm

Al-Uqul wrote:
some ismaili always ignore my questions it really Strange
I think you may be asking those who have little knowledge.
Al-Uqul wrote:1.do the Bohra allow Mutah?it is proven to be allowed
http://www.answering-ansar.org/.../mutah/en/index.php - by quran and sunnah so this confusing to me
Bohras forbid mutah. There is not much sense in discussing this further here. I suggest you take your question to the forum on shiachat.com where mutah has been discussed extensively.
Al-Uqul wrote:2.what is ment by the Ten intellects creating the wolrd For Allah?
is this literal or metaphorical ?
The theory of the 'Ten intellects' has been borrowed by the later Fatimid Ulema from the Greek Neo-platonist philosophy attributed primarily to Plotinus. It is entirely metaphorical. Bohras call it and the related systems 'Haqaiq'. It seeks to explain the origin of Cosmos by giving the Greek philosophy an Islamic character. Only Ismailies use the system. Other Muslims don't. What is surprising is that neither Christianity nor Judaism adopted it as a cosmogony.
Al-Uqul wrote:3.do bohra like believe Mawla ali created the universe?
No. Allah created the Universe.
Al-Uqul wrote:4.do you all Beleive Isa(a.s)Died on the Cross?or died?or went into Satr?
Bohras, like all Muslims, accept Quran's description that Jesus did not die on the cross but was raised. There is a myth prevalent amongst Muslims that Jesus will come again at the end of the world.
Al-Uqul wrote:5.when Qa3im al-qiyamah comes will He come with isa(a.s)?
I think that Bohras believe that Qaim ul Qiyama will appear before Jesus, who will re-appear at the end of times. I am not completely certain of this.
Al-Uqul wrote:5.What is prooof that imam musta3al was Wasi of al-mustanser billah?
Mustaali succeeded Mustansir. He was not a wasi. The last wasi was Ali. Ismailies believe that NIzar succeeded Mustansir.
Al-Uqul wrote:6.do bohra beleive in Al-Raja3a?
What is that?

anajmi
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#3

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:19 pm

Al Uqul,

Are you asking these questions for yourself or are you asking them on behalf of someone else?

Mubarak
Posts: 471
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#4

Unread post by Mubarak » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:50 pm

porus wrote:
Al-Uqul wrote:

The theory of the 'Ten intellects' has been borrowed by the later Fatimid Ulema from the Greek Neo-platonist philosophy attributed primarily to Plotinus. It is entirely metaphorical. Bohras call it and the related systems 'Haqaiq'. It seeks to explain the origin of Cosmos by giving the Greek philosophy an Islamic character. Only Ismailies use the system. Other Muslims don't. What is surprising is that neither Christianity nor Judaism adopted it as a cosmogony.
Porus bhai,

Above is NOT per Dawoodi Bohras faith.

All what you wrote above is your &/or Engineer Asgher Ali personal honest wrong belief.

Mubarak
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#5

Unread post by Mubarak » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:58 pm

porus wrote:
Al-Uqul wrote:
I think that Bohras believe that Qaim ul Qiyama will appear before Jesus, who will re-appear at the end of times. I am not completely certain of this.
Per Bohras belief, Prophet Eesa will come before Imam Quaim (ala zikre his salam).

Imam Quaim (azs) will come at the end.

Mubarak
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#6

Unread post by Mubarak » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:04 pm

Al-Uqul wrote: 4.do you all Beleive Isa(a.s)Died on the Cross?or died?or went into Satr?
Bohras believes: all born will die. Prophet Eesa (a.s.) lived his life and died.

porus
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#7

Unread post by porus » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:46 pm

Mubarak wrote:
porus wrote: The theory of the 'Ten intellects' has been borrowed by the later Fatimid Ulema from the Greek Neo-platonist philosophy attributed primarily to Plotinus. It is entirely metaphorical. Bohras call it and the related systems 'Haqaiq'. It seeks to explain the origin of Cosmos by giving the Greek philosophy an Islamic character. Only Ismailies use the system. Other Muslims don't. What is surprising is that neither Christianity nor Judaism adopted it as a cosmogony.
Porus bhai,

Above is NOT per Dawoodi Bohras faith.

All what you wrote above is your &/or Engineer Asgher Ali personal honest wrong belief.
Mubarak bhai,

I am aware that the primary source of haqaiq is the writings of the Dai Abu Yaqub al-Sijistani. al-Sijistani does not openly acknowledge his debt to Plotinus but his writings echo earlier Greek philosophy. In fact, the antecedents of al-Sijistani's philosophy, because that is what it is, are present in Rasail Ikhawan al-Safa.

I have studied the writings of Farhad Daftary and Paul Walker who are my primary sources for what I wrote above. However, if you believe that correction is needed, I will appreciate your input in the matter. Thank you.
Last edited by porus on Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

porus
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#8

Unread post by porus » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:56 pm

Mubarak wrote:
Al-Uqul wrote: 4.do you all Beleive Isa(a.s)Died on the Cross?or died?or went into Satr?
Bohras believes: all born will die. Prophet Eesa (a.s.) lived his life and died.
The Quran 4:157-158 states that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified but Allah raised him into Himself (rafa'a'hu Allah ilayhi).

This is a bit mysterious. It could mean that he died.

Mubarak
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#9

Unread post by Mubarak » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:17 pm

Porus bhai,

You are diplomat and polite in your approach. I sincerely appreciate it.

I have great respect for you. I will try to reply your post, Inshalla.

Mubarak
Posts: 471
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#10

Unread post by Mubarak » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:06 pm

Era of Kashaf = 50,000 years
Era of Fatrat = 3,000 years
Era of Satr = 7,000 years
This cycle is referred as: Dor-a-noon. Eight Quaim Imams comes for every dor-a-noon, one per seven thousand years, last Quaim era is extended.

The then age of Earth per Molana Imam Jaffer Sadik (a.s.) of our era: 64,000,000,000,000,000 years.

Molana Bahla (Mustakar Imam) father of our era Aadam Safiyullah (Tekhoom bin Bahla – Mustoda Imam) came at end of 53,000 year. Aadam a.s. till Mohammad a.s. is 6000years. From Mohammad a.s. till date is 1431years i.e. from Aadam till date 7431 years – Qayamt date is not known but will come before time enters 8000th year. After Qayamat, again above mentioned dor-a-noon will repeat.

Our era Aadam (Mustoda Imam) was born in Ceylon (Sri Lanka). Molana Aadam Kulli (Mustakar Imam), the first man on Earth was born at the central part of Kaba and was buried at the same place. Mola Ali a.s. is the only person in our era to born inside the precincts of Kaaba.

Like Akal-a-awwal with his own intellect acknowledged and pledge the existence of Allah, Aadam Kulli a.s. too did the same. Like Akal-a-awwal was raised in rank above all, so was Molana Aadam Kulli a.s.

When Aadam Kulli rank and profile was raised above all he was blessed with all knowledge including what happened before him and what will happen after him. Thus Aadam Kulli was the first person to know the Hakiki ilm and same was inherited by his son a Mustakar Imam and this son after father chain that started from Mustakar Imam Molana Aadam Kulli a.s. is running till date and will continue to run till the end of Earth.

Thus Dai Abu Yaqub Sijistani r.a. or Sayyedina Hatim r.a., etc are not the origin or source of our knowledge they are just small bearers. We copying Greek is only a ploy by non-Bohras to show us down. The richness of our knowledge wealth was originated from Aadam Kulli a.s. and passed from son after father till date.

Muslim First
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#11

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:01 pm

Looking at above Mubarak post it must be honor for Porus to have such a knowledgeable admirer.

I am impressed by Mubarak’s precise knowledge of man’s origin. We must send scientists to Udepur and do not waste time looking at fossils.

Muslim First
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#12

Unread post by Muslim First » Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:46 pm

Here is nutty piece on EVOLUTION by Bohra cousines Khoja Agakhanis

History in Ginans
bibliography_link: History in Ginans
INTRODUCTION


Our Holy Ginans are full of details about evolution. Following are some points written by Alwaez Abualy Alibhai Aziz.


EVOLUTION


“Lakh Chorasi” mentioned in our Ginans is nothing else but the theory of evolution. If you read “Moman Chitwaini” by our Holy Pir Sadruddin, you will get the full explanation about evolution and the process of creation. This book contains 630 stanzas but the language is difficult. It requires an expert to understand it. Some knowledge of Sanskrit and Prakrit is absolutely necessary.


Lakh Chorasi means 8,400,000 stages or forms of life on earth. It means a form of a species. For example, there are more than 3,000 species of snakes known today. But many more species might have been living in the past, and are now extinct.


It has taken 4,313,000 years of evolution from the amoeba to man of today. Some details:


It took the amoeba 432,000 years to evolve into a fish.
It took the fish 432,000 years to evolve into a tortoise.
It took the tortoise 432,000 years to evolve to a mammal like water hog.
It took the water hog 432,000 years to evolve to a higher form of mammal like a lion.
It took the lion 432,000 years to evolve to an ape such as a chimpanzee or sometimes known as the missing link.
It took that ape 432,000 years to evolve to the first man with intelligence. He was actually the ADAM known as ABUL BASHR.

After another 432,000 years’ period of development, the civilized man appeared during the period of the first RAMA (there are hundreds of kings known as Rama) who lived about 864,000 years ago.


Modern man and his immediate ancestors have been living on earth for the past 7,000 years during which the Biblical Prophets have appeared. The Great Flood perhaps came in this period.


Between the two major stages of evolution such as amoeba and fish, there were thousands of developing and evolving stages which produced hundred of thousands of species. Most of them are now extinct.


DAS AWTAAR


Read on at
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23080

Mubarak
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#13

Unread post by Mubarak » Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:58 pm

Bhai Muslim First Sahib,

FYI,

This thread is initiated by Al Uqul, and he categorically instructs that respected forum members like yourself should not participate here.

Thanks,

anajmi
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#14

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:04 am

Bhai Mubarak Bhaisaheb,

Knowledgeable people like you (who even learn from animals) should know the difference between an open forum and a closed one. This is an open forum. If you do not like certain members to participate then you should not post such topics over here. Start your own personal forum and invite those you like and prohibit those you don't. The Admin for this website has granted the privilege to all of us members to post on any topic we like within the boundaries set by the Admin.

We hope that you can take this discussion elsewhere if you do not want participation from all members.

Thanks
Last edited by anajmi on Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

incredible
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#15

Unread post by incredible » Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:09 am

very thoughtful description please carry on with respect to each other.mubarak and porus thanx for sharring your knowledge on this platform.

aqs
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#16

Unread post by aqs » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:42 am

thought its not related to topic but watch Zetgiest part 1st available on youtube, which talks about Jesus. In that it mentions about change every 7000 years and a new prophet at 8000 years.

Porus and Mubarak will relate to it due to their readings about the topic in discussion.

profastian
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#17

Unread post by profastian » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:51 am

Mubarak wrote:Era of Kashaf = 50,000 years
Era of Fatrat = 3,000 years
Era of Satr = 7,000 years
This cycle is referred as: Dor-a-noon. Eight Quaim Imams comes for every dor-a-noon, one per seven thousand years, last Quaim era is extended.

The then age of Earth per Molana Imam Jaffer Sadik (a.s.) of our era: 64,000,000,000,000,000 years.

Molana Bahla (Mustakar Imam) father of our era Aadam Safiyullah (Tekhoom bin Bahla – Mustoda Imam) came at end of 53,000 year. Aadam a.s. till Mohammad a.s. is 6000years. From Mohammad a.s. till date is 1431years i.e. from Aadam till date 7431 years – Qayamt date is not known but will come before time enters 8000th year. After Qayamat, again above mentioned dor-a-noon will repeat.

Our era Aadam (Mustoda Imam) was born in Ceylon (Sri Lanka). Molana Aadam Kulli (Mustakar Imam), the first man on Earth was born at the central part of Kaba and was buried at the same place. Mola Ali a.s. is the only person in our era to born inside the precincts of Kaaba.

Like Akal-a-awwal with his own intellect acknowledged and pledge the existence of Allah, Aadam Kulli a.s. too did the same. Like Akal-a-awwal was raised in rank above all, so was Molana Aadam Kulli a.s.

When Aadam Kulli rank and profile was raised above all he was blessed with all knowledge including what happened before him and what will happen after him. Thus Aadam Kulli was the first person to know the Hakiki ilm and same was inherited by his son a Mustakar Imam and this son after father chain that started from Mustakar Imam Molana Aadam Kulli a.s. is running till date and will continue to run till the end of Earth.

Thus Dai Abu Yaqub Sijistani r.a. or Sayyedina Hatim r.a., etc are not the origin or source of our knowledge they are just small bearers. We copying Greek is only a ploy by non-Bohras to show us down. The richness of our knowledge wealth was originated from Aadam Kulli a.s. and passed from son after father till date.
I don't know who you are (progressive or orthodox) or your rank. If an ortho, I don't think you should be discussing this on an open forum.

incredible
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#18

Unread post by incredible » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:02 am

^ this is where DB fails.whats wrong in disclossing sudies?every time u ask to a religious scholar about some things related to religion and he comes up with tawil and i donno what.if u dont educate people how they are suppose to learn about the religion.not every one has time and capacity to attain those sabaks where u start from basics and u reach to those inner things when u are about to die.

profastian
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#19

Unread post by profastian » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:09 am

incredible wrote:^ this is where DB fails.whats wrong in disclossing sudies?every time u ask to a religious scholar about some things related to religion and he comes up with tawil and i donno what.if u dont educate people how they are suppose to learn about the religion.not every one has time and capacity to attain those sabaks where u start from basics and u reach to those inner things when u are about to die.
If you don't have the capacity, then why try to learn what you can't digest.
Tawill shouldn't be learned before the Zahir. Its like teaching a student relativity without telling him what gravity is.
And death is not the end my friend. Everyone will have the chance to learn the 'inner things' eventually :)

aqs
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#20

Unread post by aqs » Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:27 am

incredible wrote:^ this is where DB fails.whats wrong in disclossing sudies?every time u ask to a religious scholar about some things related to religion and he comes up with tawil and i donno what.if u dont educate people how they are suppose to learn about the religion.not every one has time and capacity to attain those sabaks where u start from basics and u reach to those inner things when u are about to die.
Br.

this has been oft repeated by Abdes on this very board that Ahle Bait's Ilm cant be learned in this way (open forum), their are prescribed ways and that should be followed. if not result will be a confused lot.

If you have the angst to learn go to the correct source, open forums can only confuse you and not answer your queries lest they lead you astray

incredible
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#21

Unread post by incredible » Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:49 am

profastian wrote:
incredible wrote:^ this is where DB fails.whats wrong in disclossing sudies?every time u ask to a religious scholar about some things related to religion and he comes up with tawil and i donno what.if u dont educate people how they are suppose to learn about the religion.not every one has time and capacity to attain those sabaks where u start from basics and u reach to those inner things when u are about to die.
If you don't have the capacity, then why try to learn what you can't digest.
Tawill shouldn't be learned before the Zahir. Its like teaching a student relativity without telling him what gravity is.
And death is not the end my friend. Everyone will have the chance to learn the 'inner things' eventually :)
by the word capacity i mean time and availability.this kind o f mind set to keep thigss so secret is just found in bohras i donno why,every other sect in islam welcomes to study religion in every possible way,common bohra dont even have a simple acces to quraan which is basic of religion,many of bohra dont even understand meaning of bismillah al rah maanir rahim.

profastian
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#22

Unread post by profastian » Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:18 am

incredible wrote:
profastian wrote: If you don't have the capacity, then why try to learn what you can't digest.
Tawill shouldn't be learned before the Zahir. Its like teaching a student relativity without telling him what gravity is.
And death is not the end my friend. Everyone will have the chance to learn the 'inner things' eventually :)
by the word capacity i mean time and availability.this kind o f mind set to keep thigss so secret is just found in bohras i donno why,every other sect in islam welcomes to study religion in every possible way,common bohra dont even have a simple acces to quraan which is basic of religion,many of bohra dont even understand meaning of bismillah al rah maanir rahim.
Read a literal translation of the Quran and try to understand religion. You won't be able to go far with that.
The important thing is interpretation and not the literal meaning.
For interpretation of 'bismillah al rah maanir rahim' join the Sabaks(You will really enjoy the interpretation when you get to Haqiqat).

incredible
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#23

Unread post by incredible » Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:34 am

forget about haqiqat but most dont even understand literal meaning.

profastian
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#24

Unread post by profastian » Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:48 am

incredible wrote:forget about haqiqat but most dont even understand literal meaning.
I don't think understanding the literal meaning is that important. Its good if you do otherwise its not that big a deal.

incredible
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#25

Unread post by incredible » Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:53 am

profastian wrote:
incredible wrote:forget about haqiqat but most dont even understand literal meaning.
I don't think understanding the literal meaning is that important. Its good if you do otherwise its not that big a deal.

knowing is not important? u mean u pray 5 times a day but dont even understand what you are reciting?

porus
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#26

Unread post by porus » Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:59 am

aqs

Nothing of substance can be learned in any great depth from an open forum like this. This applies to Science, Philosophy, Politics, Religion or any other area of human knowledge. The forum’s value is to provide discussion about what people have learned and provide avenues and triggers for further individual explorations.

Studies of Ismaili metaphysics has continued unabated in the last 100 years primarily due to the efforts of the Ismaili Institute to make available hitherto unpublished material. Progressive Bohras and the Sulaymani Bohras have made their private libraries available to the Ismaili Institute. In this, the Aga Khan displays the true heritage of the Fatemi Imams, like al-Muiz who founded al-Azhar and Hakim bi-Amrillah, who founded Dar al-Hikma. During their times, all were welcome to participate in knowledge creation and acquisition whether they were Muslims, Sunni, Shia, Christians or Jews. In the West, we are now in a similar position and all can participate at whatever knowledge they possess.

No one in the West or the progressive world today believes that any knowledge is the sole property of any group of people. In fact, Bohras are one of the most ignorant people on earth when it comes to the knowledge about their religion. This applies to Amils too.

I appreciate Mubarak’s input. The idea that the first source of all knowledge was Adam Kulli, and that the knowledge has been renewed and re-presented to mankind by successive Prophets, is an idea that can be traced to Yaqub al-Sijistani. The latter, along with another great Ismaili, al-Farabi, created the Ismaili metaphysics which included a hierarchy of Intellect(aql), Soul(Ruh), Lawgiver(Nabi) and Interpreter of Law (Taawil). who is also identified as the wasi. (al-Farabi divides intellect into ten categories from aql-awwal to aashir-e-mudabbir, which he equates to Nabi). In our own age Nabi is Muhammad who brought the Shariat and Interpreter of Taawil is Ali. (This is the reason behind the Prophet saying that he is the City of Knowledge and Ali is its gate).

Both al-Sijistani and al-Farabi were influenced by Neo-Platonism, which they have incorporated in the Ismaili metaphysics.
I think that Mubarak’s error is that he considers the Ismaili Metaphysics as ‘Ultimate Truth’. I consider it as a speculation. Like similar speculative metaphysical structures, such as the Greek and Roman pantheon of Gods and ancient Egyptian religion, Ismaili Metaphysics is a mental construct to make sense of the world.

However we have changed. We put more value in scientific enterprise as a way of making sense of the world.

profastian
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#27

Unread post by profastian » Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:09 am

incredible wrote:
profastian wrote: I don't think understanding the literal meaning is that important. Its good if you do otherwise its not that big a deal.

knowing is not important? u mean u pray 5 times a day but dont even understand what you are reciting?
Yes it is important. But not the literal meaning.
Forget what you are reciting. Do you even understand why you are offering the prayers and why you are offering them the way you do?
To understand that is even more important. Hence go to sabaks.

profastian
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Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#28

Unread post by profastian » Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:15 am

porus wrote:aqs

Nothing of substance can be learned in any great depth from an open forum like this. This applies to Science, Philosophy, Politics, Religion or any other area of human knowledge. The forum’s value is to provide discussion about what people have learned and provide avenues and triggers for further individual explorations.

Studies of Ismaili metaphysics has continued unabated in the last 100 years primarily due to the efforts of the Ismaili Institute to make available hitherto unpublished material. Progressive Bohras and the Sulaymani Bohras have made their private libraries available to the Ismaili Institute. In this, the Aga Khan displays the true heritage of the Fatemi Imams, like al-Muiz who founded al-Azhar and Hakim bi-Amrillah, who founded Dar al-Hikma. During their times, all were welcome to participate in knowledge creation and acquisition whether they were Muslims, Sunni, Shia, Christians or Jews. In the West, we are now in a similar position and all can participate at whatever knowledge they possess.

No one in the West or the progressive world today believes that any knowledge is the sole property of any group of people. In fact, Bohras are one of the most ignorant people on earth when it comes to the knowledge about their religion. This applies to Amils too.

I appreciate Mubarak’s input. The idea that the first source of all knowledge was Adam Kulli, and that the knowledge has been renewed and re-presented to mankind by successive Prophets, is an idea that can be traced to Yaqub al-Sijistani. The latter, along with another great Ismaili, al-Farabi, created the Ismaili metaphysics which included a hierarchy of Intellect(aql), Soul(Ruh), Lawgiver(Nabi) and Interpreter of Law (Taawil). who is also identified as the wasi. (al-Farabi divides intellect into ten categories from aql-awwal to aashir-e-mudabbir, which he equates to Nabi). In our own age Nabi is Muhammad who brought the Shariat and Interpreter of Taawil is Ali. (This is the reason behind the Prophet saying that he is the City of Knowledge and Ali is its gate).

Both al-Sijistani and al-Farabi were influenced by Neo-Platonism, which they have incorporated in the Ismaili metaphysics.
I think that Mubarak’s error is that he considers the Ismaili Metaphysics as ‘Ultimate Truth’. I consider it as a speculation. Like similar speculative metaphysical structures, such as the Greek and Roman pantheon of Gods and ancient Egyptian religion, Ismaili Metaphysics is a mental construct to make sense of the world.

However we have changed. We put more value in scientific enterprise as a way of making sense of the world.
Actually al-Sijistani was not influenced by Plato. In fact Plato was influenced by the Pythagorean's. And with whom do you think Pythagoras was influenced by?
What you called Neo-platonic meta physics originated from Adam as did all ilm.
We are not ignorant about our religion. In fact your perception of religion is quite different from the Bohras .
All bohras are well informed about the real meat of their religion. They may be ignorant about we call minor details but which you consider to be utmost important.

incredible
Posts: 1034
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:44 pm

Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#29

Unread post by incredible » Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:57 am

thats a complete non sense that common bohra are aware of religion,they are just following what they have found there parents doing only 0.5% bohra may be aware of religion.i would be ignorant untill i went ahead and read quraan translation.may be i have no access to haqiqat and tawil bla bla bla but simple literal meaning of quraan is important for me.atleast i know what am i reciting in namaz and why am i muslim and whats halal and haraam according to Quraan.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Important Questions urgent help Out there!

#30

Unread post by porus » Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:23 am

None of the ideas that are associated with Ismaili metaphysics such as aql awwal and aashir-e-mudabbir are explicitly mentioned in the lives of Nabi, Ali or Imams up to Abdallah al-Mastoor. Bohras believe that the latter is the author of Rasa’il Ikhawan al-Safa. However, scholars believe that it was a secretive joint effort of Ismaili scholars during the Abbasid persecution. Rasa’ail has the first hints of incorporation of the Greek thought within Muslim philosophy.

In Ismaili metaphysics, the fabric of the cosmos, the basic stuff of the universe, is what it calls Intellect or Aql. This is the first creation of Allah. Aql incorporates all that we identify as laws that govern the universe and it also incorporates idealized forms of entities which can be given names in the world. For instance, law of gravity is a property of intellect and so is the name tree which is used to identify a real tree. This is essentially Platonism.

The next stage down in hierarchy is the creation of Spirit or Ruh. Spirit animates material substance to create living entities, the third stage. The first person was Adam who was given the knowledge and Law. His job was to proclaim the Law to the rest of mankind and provide instructions for submission to Allah.

Once the Law was promulgated, it would last a long time. The Law required an interpreter who could explain the real meaning behind the Law, the Taawil. Taawil led people to the knowledge of their origin. Master of Taawil is the Imam, who must be present at all times.

So, in Ismaili metaphysics, Imam is necessary for people to get near to Allah.

Ismailies have their living Imam. Bohras have lost theirs. Thus Bohras have attempted to substitute the Dai in his place in the metaphysical scheme. Thus the Dai becomes the Master of Taawil.

This means that al-Sijistani’s metaphysics has undergone transformation to cater for Dai’s elevation to the status of the Master of Taawil.