Give us our due

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
ultofanatic
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:34 am

Give us our due

#1

Unread post by ultofanatic » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:52 am

Religious heads are enormously revered, followed and every word of their's lapped up avidly. They are in a unique position to really make a difference and prove their worth.

Although basic human problems in the olden days were more or less the same as today , the new issues that are of concern now are totally different. There are some problems that are unique to us and most of today's problems could not have been imagined then. I have always wondered why they do not preach things that would be beneficial to the here and now.

In spite of its impossibility I would love to see many changes happen that would be incredibly beneficial to the community -

Inform people about the benefits of sports. How it helps to lead a healthier life (rather than eating away to glory in the jamatkhanas). Promote group sport activities which helps build up a unique friendship and understanding irrespective of age, class, color or money power. It is a sure fire way of weaning people away from tobacco, alcohol and gambling.

Plant more trees and increase the green cover – make this earth a better place to live in for us and our future generations.

Contribute to the prevention of global warming. The scientific community is shouting at the top of its voice to create awareness. Religious forums would be ideal places to reach the message effectively.

Fairness in business – cheating the customer with duplicate goods, submit false bills to eat up the tax, “supplier ka chappal ghisa” for payment even as small as 100/-, pair up with the purchase officer and cheat the company with false bills – the list is endless. These things happen on a day to day basis. To outsiders it certainly appears that “All is Well” with the bohras. The innards are “Khokhla”. Teach them safe and fair business practices.

Some time ago there was a rush for industry “kholo”. Where is the training imparted or expertise for this complex activity? The reasons for almost all bohras opening shops of almost the same type are: hereditary businesses taken over by sons from fathers, bohras who have worked in a shop for a few years will naturally carry on the same work, very few people have the technical knowledge to venture into newer lines of work (and there are many), most of the bohras venture into the safe and known lines rather than risk it especially when their starting capital is very low etc. In this scenario, without sufficient technical knowledge, financial backing, marketing knowhow etc it is difficult to imagine anyone venturing out into manufacturing lines. Simply saying “industry kholo” is not going to start anything.

Set up small self help groups amongst women who are less privileged. There are so many small home / cottage industries that can be started on a small cooperative scale. For effective ideas we need not go far. At every village level there are SHGs operating successfully. Stitching, gustava making, toys making, pickles, agricultural produce marketing, bags making – the list is endless.
Hard work and innovation of the Bohra women could be put to use.

There are many issues like the above that need to be addressed. Simply harping on the same old stories can take us only so far. Lets come out of our imaginary shells of “Abdes” and “Progs” and do something useful. I hope somebody at the top is listening and is not selfish enough to realize that other than collecting huge sums of money and crocodile tears there is so much the Bohras deserve and expect. They have toiled hard to resurrect the Dawat and they deserve better treatment. Give them their due before its too late.

TBG
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:12 am

Re: Give us our due

#2

Unread post by TBG » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Agreed completely.

At this time and age where we are bombarded with many issues, and mostly that we are responsible for ourselves we can do a lot together rather than always arguing about it. I have mentioned a couple of times, if things are so wrong why not take actions, why alwyas debate and discuss. Discussions and debates have not changed the world, but actions have.

Forget religious difference, what about working for uplifting the society via education, health reforms, sustainability etc like you have mentioned .

mumin
Posts: 398
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Give us our due

#3

Unread post by mumin » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:24 pm

no can do. the clergy does not want educated people. evrything must have raza so they can control. if you are expecting this from the abdes you are living in a dream world.

ultofanatic
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:34 am

Re: Give us our due

#4

Unread post by ultofanatic » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:38 am

Raza is not the issue here. We are asking the powers that be to do something better than just "Waez", "Majlis", "Darees" and so on.

No harm in doing some physical work for the benefit of the community. After all the community has worked hard to bring the Dawat into so much of wealth.

After all what can go wrong by preaching the things that have already been mentioned earlier. Surely from any angle or view point, only good can come off it. Good for the Kothar too - if people are happy they will keep them happy.

Smart
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Give us our due

#5

Unread post by Smart » Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:07 am

To ask the establishment is like asking for dark clouds to give us light. The whole establishments primary and only goals is to work various means to extract as much as they can from the believers.

As a matter of fact, many such institutions existed to contribute to the welfare of the community in the past. They have been taken over and now serve only their purpose of extraction.

Just to give an example, there existed a hostel for Bohra students studying in Pune and a large number of students from all over the world would come to Pune to get educated. This hostel no longer exists and out of station Bohra students stay very far away and with other communities.

Similarly, there were many institutions working for the orphans, widows, lending free books to students, running dispensaries and contributing to the welfare of the weaker sections of the community. Where are they? Most of them have disappeared. Only some token activities are still conducted as a face saving expedient.

mumin
Posts: 398
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Give us our due

#6

Unread post by mumin » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:41 pm

let us give it a fresh start. let us use our zakat money to form small groups to help the poor and needy instead of giving it to the local amil and his bunch of committee gundas. you by now know very well that your hard earned money will not go to the poor and needy but to fill his pockets.

Smart
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Give us our due

#7

Unread post by Smart » Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:03 pm

Just an observation. Fanatic abdes are conspicuous by their absence on this thread.

mukhlis52
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:35 am

Re: Give us our due

#8

Unread post by mukhlis52 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:52 am

mumin wrote: you by now know very well that your hard earned money will not go to the poor and needy but to fill his pockets.
The Qur'an states in Surat al Tawbah, verse 60, 'Indeed, the Sadaqaat are for the poor, the very poor, the ones who collect the Sadaqaat, the ones who need to be lured to accept islam, the army, the prisoners, in the cause of Allah, and the homeless'
A thing to note here is that there has not been any specific percentage given to any category, and the word used for the collector of Sadaqaat is Amil. Therefore the right of an Amil making his claim cannot be disputed, according to this Ayat. As far as the distribution of these monies is concerned, the system of Dawat is more towards the social system of governance in which public entities are the source of benefits which are to be claimed from the monies accordingly paid. The results of those monies cannot be practically distributed among all the members therefore is used for the common benefit of the community by its investment in public entities. Also there is another order of certain monies in the Qur'an which requires all to pay one fifth of whatever profit one has been fortunate to receive in whatever fashion which is the exclusive property of the head of the community.

mumin
Posts: 398
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Give us our due

#9

Unread post by mumin » Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:15 am

i am refering to zakat money, not sadaka. secondly monies are asked for different programs like sending people to haj, sending people for karbala ziarat, sending people to syedna tahir saifuddin's ziarat, qarze hassana scheme, wajebats for the feeding of people, although there is no force in islam yet the term wajebaat is coined by the clergy, which means mandatory requirement . where in the quran does it state that one has to give plane ticket to people to go for haj?
if these moneis were used for the purpose intended the people may contribute. But as you very well know there is no transparancy. monies collected by the goondas of the jamaat committee are used for their own ulterior motives. The goondas of the jamaat committee are known for their cunningness. they will ask people for wajebaats but when time comes for jaman on big nights they are back again asking individuals to do jaman and the usual broken record that they will get great sawab.

mukhlis52
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:35 am

Re: Give us our due

#10

Unread post by mukhlis52 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:30 am

the word sadaqaat in this ayat means zakaat. Not the sadaqa which used commonly referring to alms. Because of that the ayat says "al Aameleena alaiha". Alms are not collected officially. Its the zakat. And for the rest of your post, its just a personal opinion with little or no actual authenticity.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Give us our due

#11

Unread post by porus » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:25 pm

Historically, zakaat was collected by employees whose remuneration was given from the collection.

This is no longer the case among Bohras. Bohras have to go and 'pay' Zakaat, which is a portion of wajebat. Aamil cannot justify his share of Zakaat by reference to Quran. His justification is simply "that is the way it is, like it or not'.

mukhlis52
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:35 am

Re: Give us our due

#12

Unread post by mukhlis52 » Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:01 am

today the system followed by the dawat of waajebaat is an all encompassing system in which all the necessary payments are included in one package. It is by this system that the people do not have to pay all the required money differently, extracting in this fashion the psychological burden of giving money again and again. The earlier system of collecting zakaat/is the same for today. From the above post it seems to the reader that the earlier times had zakaat collectors like postmen who used to run house to house collecting money. It does not seem so. Ane neither there is any record that such kind of system was into use. Even today the income tax officer is knwn as the collector altho he does not collect the tax, the ppl go and PAY him. And the explaination of an amil saying what he says according to porus is a bit weak. It is the system which is followed and no one is supposed override the commands of the quran. What the amil says is a personal out look of porus. No such official document has been issued giving right to any amil to say anything like such.

mumin
Posts: 398
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Give us our due

#13

Unread post by mumin » Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:14 am

you state zakat and sadaka is same. you collect this money under a lot of different names. What do you do with the money ?

mukhlis52
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:35 am

Re: Give us our due

#14

Unread post by mukhlis52 » Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:47 pm

Sorry brother, i never stated that sadaqa is zakat or vice-versa. I tried to explain that the word al Sadaqaat in the aforementioned verse from Surah al Tawbah means zakat, as is elaborated by the ones who have done the tafseer of the Qur'an.
About the expenditure of the money which you are demanding to know, im again sorry, as i do not collect that money and therefore have no idea about what the money is expended for, except that it is used to the benefit of the classifications mentioned in the verse. The different types of money you ask, i can provide you with the details. 1. Zakat al Maal, 2. al Khumus, 3. Nazr ul Maqaam(A. S.) 4. Niyaaz, 5. Najwa, 6. Salaam of Mazoon Saheb and Mukasir Saheb, sumthing more, it slips out of my mind, i shall thoroughly provide you with the information.