Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
porus
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#31

Unread post by porus » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:59 pm

anajmi wrote:porus,

The simple answer to the question is that the prophet wasn't following any calendar.
Really? I will let you reconsider your statement. He may not have been following a hijri calendar as we know it today, I grant you. But he wasn't following any calendar? tch tch.

anajmi
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#32

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:25 pm

As I said, the prophet was following the sighting of the moon. The MOON was his calendar.

Muslim First
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#33

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:11 pm

the prophet wasn't following any calendar. The prophet was following the sighting of the moon.
Misri calander is Tabulat calender.
Tabular Islamic calendar
Main article: Tabular Islamic calendar
There exists a variation of the Islamic calendar known as the tabular Islamic calendar in which months are worked out by arithmetic rules rather than by observation or astronomical calculation. It has a 30-year cycle with 11 leap years of 355 days and 19 years of 354 days. In the long term, it is accurate to one day in about 2500 years. It also deviates up to about 1 or 2 days in the short term
Here are relevent Ahadith regarding fasting

http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display ... anslator=1

Narrated Ibn Umar: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "When you see the crescent (of the month of Ramadan), start fasting, and when you see the crescent (of the month of Shawwal), stop fasting; and if the sky is overcast (and you can't see It) then regard the crescent (month) of Ramadan (as of 30 days)"

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 7.222 Narrated by Ibn Umar
http://www.alim.org/library/hadith/SHB/ ... cktabs_4=0

The Prophet (saws) (holding out his ten fingers thrice), said, "The month is thus and thus and thus," namely thirty days. Then (holding out his ten fingers twice and then nine fingers), he (saws) said, "It may be thus and thus and thus," namely twenty nine days. He (saws) meant once thirty days and once twenty nine days.

Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 2312 Narrated by Abdullah ibn Umar
The Prophet (saws) said: ‘The month consists of twenty-nine days, but do not fast till you sight it (the moon) and do not break your fast till you sight it. If the weather is cloudy, calculate it thirty days.

Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 2315 Narrated by Abdullah ibn Mas'ud
We kept fast for twenty-nine days along with the Prophet (saws) more often than we kept fast for thirty days.

Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 2320 Narrated by Abdullah ibn Abbas
The Prophet (saws) said: ‘Do not fast one day or two days just before Ramadan except in the case of a man who has been in the habit or observing a fast (on that day); and do not

porus
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#34

Unread post by porus » Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:49 pm

anajmi wrote:As I said, the prophet was following the sighting of the moon. The MOON was his calendar.
A calendar is a system of reckoning the number of days, months and years. In Islam, Day starts at sunrise and ends at Sunset. Month starts at New Moon. And 12 months make a year. MOON Is not a calendar. It is an object in the sky. Phases of moon are easily observable natural phenomena to mark and reckon months.

Prophet, presumably, did not have the luxury of performing modern astronomical calculations. So, he probably used the sighting of New Moon to start the month. But he definitely used a calendar. If not, how do you think he determined which month was Ramadaan and which was the month for Haj?

I think that if Prophet had access to modern astronomical data and mathematics, he would have fixed the number of days totally detached from the easily accessible visible cycles of the moon.

If the Quran was revealed today, Allah might ask us to reckon our times by transition frequency of electrons in Cesium atoms in an Atomic Clock, and not by sighting the moon or the sun.

anajmi
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#35

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:02 am

The prophet followed the moon to determine the beginning and the end of the month. PERIOD!! Dawoodi Bohra hijri calendar does not follow the prophet. It follows modern scientific methods. And the prophet followed the Quran. So for the Dawoodi Bohras to claim that their method is better than the method of the prophet is extremely pompous. They've got the right Dai!!

What the prophet would've done with the current technology is immaterial. Allah's wisdom is not be questioned based upon the development of human "science"!! Once the world runs out of oil and we are back in the dark ages, the method of the prophet will still work. But there will be no one to produce the Dawoodi Bohra Hijri calendar!!

porus
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#36

Unread post by porus » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:12 pm

New Moon is tomorrow, Wednesday, September 8. So the new month ought to start on Thursday.

Bohras will celebrate Eid on Thursday. anajmi can wait till he sees the crescent which may be on Thursday or Friday. His family who, presumably, are Bohras will be watching anajmi fast while they celebrate Eid.

Unless of course, by some miracle, some Mullah observes the crescent on Wednesday. :D

However, if he completes 30 days of fast, he will start the new month whether he observes the crescent or not. What happened to Prophet following the moon then? Lo, he employed rudimentary primitive math. :D

Happy Eid, everyone!

Muslim First
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#37

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:38 pm

Ramadan 1431 AH:

The Astronomical New Moon is on August 10, 2010 (Tuesday) at 11:08 am Makkah Time. Sunset in Makkah on August 10 is at 6:55 pm. On that day, the Topocentric Altitude of the moon in Makkah at sunset is 1.6 degrees. Therefore, the first day of Ramadan is on August 11, 2010 (Wednesday), making the first Tarawih prayer to be on the night of Tuesday August 10, 2010.

http://www.fiqhcouncil.org/

porus
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#38

Unread post by porus » Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:21 pm

Muslim First wrote:Ramadan 1431 AH:

The Astronomical New Moon is on August 10, 2010 (Tuesday) at 11:08 am Makkah Time. Sunset in Makkah on August 10 is at 6:55 pm. On that day, the Topocentric Altitude of the moon in Makkah at sunset is 1.6 degrees. Therefore, the first day of Ramadan is on August 11, 2010 (Wednesday), making the first Tarawih prayer to be on the night of Tuesday August 10, 2010.

http://www.fiqhcouncil.org/
Good Lord! They did not observe the crescent to start Ramadaan? anajmi will not like that at all! They were not following the Prophet. anajmi, send off missives of protest to the Wahhabi homeland! :D

anajmi
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#39

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:40 pm

Well, actually, if you hadn't been so preoccupied with your own self (and trying to counter everything anajmi says), you would've known that I have stated on this board many times that I would prefer all of the muslim world to follow a fixed system based upon the scientifically known position of the moon. This is not because it is the method described in the Quran. This is because we can eliminate the confusion that has crept into the system because of each Ulema wanting to follow his own personal sighting of the moon.

I was just showing that the claim made by Mubarak/porus that the Dawoodi Bohra hijri calendar is the pristine method followed in the Quran and those that follow the sighting of the moon are wrong, is baseless. Infact prophet Muhammad (saw), who is the best follower of the Quran, followed the sighting of the moon.

anajmi
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#40

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:43 pm

However, if he completes 30 days of fast, he will start the new month whether he observes the crescent or not. What happened to Prophet following the moon then? Lo, he employed rudimentary primitive math.
Well, you might want to study the hadith of the prophet (saw) in bit more detail. You might find the answer to your question.

anajmi
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#41

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:30 pm

What does Daim-ul-Islam say about the Dawoodi Bohra Hijri calendar? As per my research (not much) - Nothing!!

However, in the book of fasting and itikaf, under the section "Commencing the Fast" it says

"Ali: When he saw the new moon he used to say, 'God is great, O God, I ask thee for all that is good in this month........."

Mubarak
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#42

Unread post by Mubarak » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:47 am

Mubarak wrote:Allah commands in Sura Al Baqarah: Verse 184 refering Ramadan to "Fast for a fixed number of days". It is only possible if one follows Dawoodi Bohras Hizri Calendar. Rest sects incorrect dependence on citing moon makes their Ramadan period variable (29 or 30 days) and not fixed which is against Allah order.

Allah has prescribed (pre decided) the number of days in Ramadan and not left it subjective to followers discretion of moon citing, refer Al Baqarah: Verse 185: "Ramadan…(Allah wants you) to complete the prescribed period,..."

"Al Baqarah: Verse 189: They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say: They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men,..."
In above verse Allah declared Moon periods/movements are fixed and only Dawoodi Bohras Hizri Calendar exactly resemble this quality of moon. Hence prima facie per Quran 2:189 a fixed calendar system should be the right approach and not otherwise.

Sura YaSeen verse 39 & 40: Allah states that orbits of the Moon and the Sun are fixed. Therefore the number of days in the lunar month have to be fixed: in Dawoodi Bohras Hizri Calendar number of days are fixed whereas for rest sects their Ramadan days are not fixed (29/30 days). Thus Dawoodi Bohras is the only sect to align as per Sura YaSeen command.

Alhamdolillah
Simple and short one liner for Anajmi & party – premise is: Per Quran (refer above quoted text) Ramadan period is fixed and not variable (29 or 30).

In Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) era there was no paper printed wall hanging or desktop calendar.

To learn/inquire dates we sight/refer wall or desktop calendar, likewise Prophet and his pious household sighted moon. Sighting moon to learn dates doesn’t mean that Ramadan period will be variable.

Dawoodi Bohras always have fixed period for Ramadan and rest sects have variable i.e. 29 or 30 days (against order of Quran).

Hence, only Dawoodi Bohras are blessed and chosen by Allah to execute Quran order of 2:184 and rest sects are punished with structural defects in their computation of Ramadan period.

anajmi
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#43

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:15 am

For Mubarak and other's who have no idea what the Quran says, Ramadan is fixed - either 29 or 30 days. The prophet sighted the moon for the beginning and the end of the month and if Ramadan was fixed for 30 days only, then there was no need to sight the moon. Bohras go against the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet by fixing the number of days of Ramadan not by sighting the moon, but by some other method.

Besides, the bohra calendar months alternate between 29 days and 30 days. Even if Ramadan was set for 29 days instead of 30, it would still be fixed according to Mubarak's pristine logic!!

porus
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#44

Unread post by porus » Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:12 am

The Fiqh Council of North America, a grouping of Muslim scholars, began offering an astronomically-derived date for Eid five years ago.

The council believes the Quran does not mandate physical sightings. It says Eid this year falls on Friday, backing Saudi Arabia’s decision.

Science can predict accurately when a new moon rises. A lunar month literally begins at the moment of “conjunction,” an astronomical term used to describe when the earth, moon and sun lie in the same plane. This year, conjunction occurred on Wednesday but was not visible in most of the world on the evening of that day.

http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2010 ... t-science/

anajmi
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#45

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:04 am

The Quran does not mandate physical sightings and physical sightings are not against the Quran unlike Shri Mubarakji's pristine logic. It is ok if one fasts for 29 days or 30 days based upon physical sightings. Physical sighting of the moon is the Sunnah of the prophet.

Aarif
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#46

Unread post by Aarif » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:28 pm

Ramdaan abhi Khatam nahin hua ke bachcho ki tarah ladhne lage. Shame on you guys.

Stop fighting, celebrate EID and have fun.. Here is wishing you all EID Mubarak.

Muslim First
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#47

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:25 pm

deleted

yusuftopiwala
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#48

Unread post by yusuftopiwala » Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:03 am

Dear All,

If we relate Roza with Fasting, then how do we understand Quran's Aayat 19:26 which goes as below:
"So eat and drink and be content. And if you see any man, say, 'Indeed, I have vowed to the Most Gracious a fast, so I will not speak today to any human being."

In the above Aayat Fast is related to Speaking, and not related to eating. So are their different type of Roza?

Regards,
Yusuf Topiwala

porus
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#49

Unread post by porus » Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:06 am

yusuftopiwala wrote: In the above Aayat Fast is related to Speaking, and not related to eating. So are their different type of Roza?
Yes, there are different types of fast. Fast in Ramadan is as per ayat 2:187. 19:26 describes a specific command to Maryam to observe a 'speaking' fast.

Please read Daailmul Islam's chapter on fasting for complete treatment.

Mubarak
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#50

Unread post by Mubarak » Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:53 am

Allah commands in Sura Al Baqarah: Verse 184 refering Ramadan to "Fast for a fixed number of days". It is only possible if one follows Dawoodi Bohras Hizri Calendar. Rest sects incorrect dependence on citing moon makes their Ramadan period variable (29 or 30 days) and not fixed which is against Allah order.

Allah has prescribed (pre decided) the number of days in Ramadan and not left it subjective to followers discretion of moon citing, refer Al Baqarah: Verse 185: "Ramadan…(Allah wants you) to complete the prescribed period,..."

"Al Baqarah: Verse 189: They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say: They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men,..."
In above verse Allah declared Moon periods/movements are fixed and only Dawoodi Bohras Hizri Calendar exactly resemble this quality of moon. Hence prima facie per Quran 2:189 a fixed calendar system should be the right approach and not otherwise.

Sura YaSeen verse 39 & 40: Allah states that orbits of the Moon and the Sun are fixed. Therefore the number of days in the lunar month have to be fixed: in Dawoodi Bohras Hizri Calendar number of days are fixed whereas for rest sects their Ramadan days are not fixed (29/30 days). Thus Dawoodi Bohras is the only sect to align as per Sura YaSeen command.

Alhamdolillah
Simple and short one liner for Anajmi & party – premise is: Per Quran (refer above quoted text) Ramadan period is fixed and not variable (29 or 30).

In Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) era there was no paper printed wall hanging or desktop calendar.

To learn/inquire dates we sight/refer wall or desktop calendar, likewise Prophet and his pious household sighted moon. Sighting moon to learn dates doesn’t mean that Ramadan period will be variable.

Dawoodi Bohras always have fixed period for Ramadan and rest sects have variable i.e. 29 or 30 days (against order of Quran).

Hence, only Dawoodi Bohras are blessed and chosen by Allah to execute Quran order of 2:184 and rest sects are punished with structural defects in their computation of Ramadan period
.

Simple solution for complex problem:
One sect will get 'nijat', rest all sects in Islam are doomed otherwise. Which is that sect?

It will be that sect whose structure is per Quran.

Refer Quran 2:184: ONLY Dawoodi Bohras obeyes Allah command and rest all sects of Islam including especially Sunnis and Isnashari acts against Quran 2:184.

Hence proved, in the light of Quran 2:184 Dawoodi Bohras is the only sect to get 'nijat'.

anajmi
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#51

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:17 am

As per Shri Mubarakji's pristine logic, even the prophet (saw) is going to hell because he never followed the dawoodi bohra calendar. I'd rather go with the prophet then with Shri Mubarakji!!

Mubarak
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#52

Unread post by Mubarak » Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:03 am

anajmi wrote:As per Shri Mubarakji's pristine logic, even the prophet (saw) is going to hell because he never followed the dawoodi bohra calendar. I'd rather go with the prophet then with Shri Mubarakji!!
Anajmi, this logic is accredited to Quran 2:184 not to Mubarak.

Nomenclature is not important, only the logic of Quran 2:184 matters. Call it by any name, Dawoodi Bohras calendar or Hijri calendar or Misri Calendar or only calendar - name is irrelevant - important is concept: calendar/practice of Ramadan fasting period should incorporate and align per Quran 2:184.

You, your Yazeed friendly guru Zakir Naik, any Sunni or anyone – can you all prove from Quran that Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) practiced variable i.e. not-fixed period for Ramadan? You all cannot.

All sects are in unison that Prophet preached and practiced Quran. By this token, Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) followed Quran 2:184, which means he always has fixed and not variable period for Ramadan. Only Bohras have fixed period attribute for Ramadan and rest all sects don’t. Or in other words only Bohras are blessed to follow Allah command in Quran 2:184 and all including Sunni are not blessed.

anajmi
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#53

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:56 am

All sects are in unison that Prophet preached and practiced Quran. By this token, Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) followed Quran 2:184, which means he always has fixed and not variable period for Ramadan.
The prophet (saw) followed the moon to determine the beginning and the end of the month and not a misri or hijri calendar.
Only Bohras have fixed period attribute for Ramadan and rest all sects don’t. Or in other words only Bohras are blessed to follow Allah command in Quran 2:184 and all including Sunni are not blessed.
The bohras are also blessed with a corrupt Dai and a hidden Imam!!

Mubarak
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#54

Unread post by Mubarak » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:19 pm

anajmi wrote:
The prophet (saw) followed the moon to determine the beginning and the end of the month and not a misri or hijri calendar.
Sura Yaseen: 39 & 40 says that moon has fixed orbit so months based on moon will have fixed periods.
Prophet Mohammed followed moon to start and end of Ramadan, this will result him in ending up doing Ramadan fasting for fixed period and not variable like non-Dawoodi Bohras.
Further, Prophet following moon to start and end Ramadan: how does it infers that his Ramadan fasting was not for fixed period?

Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) cannot go against the Quran 2:184 but Sunni’s, Isnashari, etc can.

Hence proved, Quran 2:184 is the simple solution for complex problem, among all hundreds of sects in Islam only one is with ‘nijat’ and rest all otherwise. Sura 2:184 indicates that Dawoodi Bohras is that sect.
Last edited by Mubarak on Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

anajmi
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#55

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:25 pm

Mubarak,

You are a waste of time. The bohras should follow the prophet (saw) and sight the moon to determine the beginning of ramadan. They should try this for 25 years. Every year they should be able to sight the moon exactly 30 days apart for the month of ramadan. Talk to me after you do that.

Next discussion on this topic will be 25 years later.

porus
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#56

Unread post by porus » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:40 pm

anajmi wrote:
Next discussion on this topic will be 25 years later.
Can you please apply that dictum to all topics on this board. Thanks. :D

anajmi
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#57

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:09 pm

porus,

I already have. You are so scared of me that you won't be responding to my posts for the next 25 years. :wink:

Mubarak
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#58

Unread post by Mubarak » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:00 am

anajmi wrote:Mubarak,

You are a waste of time. The bohras should follow the prophet (saw) and sight the moon to determine the beginning of ramadan. They should try this for 25 years. Every year they should be able to sight the moon exactly 30 days apart for the month of ramadan. Talk to me after you do that.

Next discussion on this topic will be 25 years later.
Dear Anajmi,

Thanks for your above post. Alhamdolillah, it is the acknowledgement of intellectual defeat of Sunni faith.

Acknowledgement of these type of intellectual defeat by Sunnis is not new nor uncommon, indeed it is from the beginning itself example: Your caliph Umar categorically acknowledged, "Agar Ali ibn Abi Talib na hote to Umar halak ho jata."

profastian
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#59

Unread post by profastian » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:12 am

The sighting of the moon thing is a illogical thing to do, period.

What if you are blind and you are marooned on a deserted island. Will you have every month of 30 days.
What if there is storm season in your area. You can't see the sky let alone the moon?
What if you live near the poles where you have the sun for half the year? Will you have a 30 day month for 6 months?

Sighting, is a very subjective thing anyway. With a powerful telescope you will be able to sight the moon everytime on the 29th.

incredible
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Re: Quran 2:184 - Bohras v/s rest sects

#60

Unread post by incredible » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:47 am

it is not true that only bohra or any other particular sect will go to jannah and all other will be doomed,infact Quraan says even jews and christians who are steadfast in there deeds and follows one GOD will go to jannah, period. :wink: