sajda for nabi?

[anajmi]

profastian,

If there is any validity to your logic, then Ved Vyasa and Valmiki are also telling the truth. People who question the authority of the Quran simply to demonstrate the authority of their own idols are hypocrites (munafiqs) and are bordering on kufr.

[makberi]

if the quran can be interpreted by only haq na sahib y reveal it to the general population....so that we read it like parrots!!!! without understanding the words......

did i say ONLY, i said IF haq na saheb wants he can. Quran was not revealed to general public, it was revealed to Prophet(saw)

aqs,
so if i understand u correctly you are saying that the Quran can be understood correctly without help or support of the "Haq na Sahib"......

again if the Quran was not meant to be read and understood by the common man y shud Allah or the Prophet reveal the text...rest of us are too dumb to understand it anyway y bother........He shud have just given directions to the "Haq na Sahib" so that we wud learn from him.....and follow to the dot wat he says......

[porus]

The Prophet-hood came before the Quran and Quran came through the Prophet. How can the prophet derive authority from the Quran. How do you know he didn't just make it all up?

uskut, ya Himmar! anta qad saqaTta fi_d-deen_il-islam!!

أُسكت٫ يا حمّار
انت قد سقطت في الدين الاسلام


Quran did not come before or after. It always was, uncreated, fi lawhin mahfooz. (Surat al-Burooj, 20-21)

It descended into the heart of Prophet Muhammad in a single instant on Laylat al-Qadr. Prophet's authority is from the Quran. Quran itself states so.

[Humsafar]

The Prophet-hood came before the Quran and Quran came through the Prophet. How can the prophet derive authority from the Quran. How do you know he didn't just make it all up?

anami and porus have responded already. I'll only add that the Dai is not the Prophet, and that the Dai does not have anything close to the Quran to give him the status and authority he claims.
Also, can you pls explain us the "tangential" interpretation of the sajda!!

[Humsafar]

by the authority of nass, since Adam(as) the next Haq na saheb has been selected through Nass.

By knowledge about the nass business is sketchy , but let's assume that what you're saying is true. That means you're equating Adam with Sayedna Burhanuddin. If both of them share the same title - haq na saheb - then they have the same status and authority. That means in the absence of the Imam, the dai's status and authority is higher than that of the Imam. Also, can you pls elaborate on the title "haq na saheb" - what it means doctrinally and where and in what context it is referenced in our books.

zahir and tawil can be two different thing but it will not contradict each other.

But then the Quran forbids sajda, and the Dai allows it. Isn't that a stark contradiction?

[porus]

by the authority of nass, since Adam(as) the next Haq na saheb has been selected through Nass.

By knowledge about the nass business is sketchy...

Mine too.

Quran firmly states that 'Haq na Saheb' is Allah and no one else.

But, let us seek the meaning of the phrase 'Haq na Saheb' in Shia/Ismaili/Bohra metaphysics. Haq refers to Truth which is the inner essence of the Quran, normally referred to as baatin. Only the person blessed with the means to engage in Tawil is able to draw baatin out and explain this essence. Baatin is subsumed under the term 'Haqaa'iq' among Ismailies/Bohras.

Revisionist Shia metaphysics in the 8th century settled on the view that tanzil and tawil are two different functions. Tanzil and its associated Shariat is given to a prophet to promulgate. Tawil is given to the Wasi or Imam to ensure correct understanding and execution of tanzil and shariat. He, the Imam, elucidates baatin to a select few. Thus all great prophets who were also messengers (those blessed with tanzil like tawraat, injeel, and quran) were also accompanied by an Imam.

With the completion of the cycle of Prophets, tanzils and shariats, there is a continual need to secure tanzil and shariat through inner elucidation. Imam is the person who continues this elucidation and he must always be present on earth.

This view is common for the Shia, Ismailies and Bohras. But that is where the similarity ends. The Shia do not concern themselves with taawil because they believe it is within the jurisdiction of Imam who is in purdah. They concentrate on tafseer instead. This keeps them firmly within the zahiri tradition. However their elders make references to baatin in the history of their Imams.

Ismailis, of course, have a hazar (present, not hidden) Imam and he is the repository of baatin and the person blessed with the means to engage in taawil.

Bohras too have historically believed that only Imam has baatin. Thus Bohras, like Ismailies, are firmly within the baatini tradition. That is also the tradition as recounted in their books. However, there is now a change. Dai has been promoted to be 'Haq na saheb', which means he has been chosen by Allah for that function and blessed with the intuition (tawil) reserved so far for Imams only.

The idea of 'nass' was also confined to apply only to Imams. But when imam disappeared, the idea of nass was applied to Dais as well. Nass within Imamat was 'divine'. Nass within 'Duaat' was administrative. This too has changed with the promotion of the Dai to Imamat. Now, his pronouncement of nass is also thought to be divine.

To be sure, this drastic change about nass among the Dais has not been promulgated. A fiction of the Dai being in touch with the hidden Imam through ilhaam (intution, mainly through dreams) has been created and sold successfully to Bohras.

You may believe in Ismaili metaphysics and the position of Imam within it. But the current Bohra orthodoxy must elevate the Dai to Imamat if Dai has to usurp the metaphysical framework of Imamat, nass, title of 'Haq na saheb', and all for Daawat.

[Humsafar]

Thanks porus, that was excellent.

[anajmi]

There is no difference in how the Dai has become "Haq Na Saheb" and how the Imam became a "Haq Na Saheb". If you wait a few more centuries, and the Dai does not declare nass but goes into hiding (the chances of that happening with the current Dai are pretty high) a sub-Dai will also become "haq na saheb" and someone like porus will be clarifying that uptill Dai it was Divine but sub-Dai is not divine but a recent creation.

It shouldn't be hard to figure out that if the Bohra Imam has gone into hiding, his status wasn't divine in origin. It is apparent that Shia/Ismaili/Bohra metaphysics has veered far away from the teachings of the Quran.

[profastian]

The Prophet-hood came before the Quran and Quran came through the Prophet. How can the prophet derive authority from the Quran. How do you know he didn't just make it all up?

uskut, ya Himmar! anta qad saqaTta fi_d-deen_il-islam!!

أُسكت٫ يا حمّار
انت قد سقطت في الدين الاسلام


Quran did not come before or after. It always was, uncreated, fi lawhin mahfooz. (Surat al-Burooj, 20-21)

It descended into the heart of Prophet Muhammad in a single instant on Laylat al-Qadr. Prophet's authority is from the Quran. Quran itself states so.

Thats just word play, yaa himmar akhir.
The Quran was revealed through the Prophet. Nobody knew what the Quran was before the Prophet. So the validity of the Quran derives from the validity of his prophethood.
What I am asking is what proves the validity of his prophethood?

[profastian]

It descended into the heart of Prophet Muhammad in a single instant on Laylat al-Qadr.

And where in the Quran is this said
And what about the other 'Wahye' if that is 'literally' true

[Humsafar]

Profastian, let's for argument's sake accept your assertion that "The Quran was revealed through the Prophet" and that he derives his authority from "his own book". Now let's come to the present Dai, has he revealed any book from which he derives his authority? If not, then where does he derive his authority from?

To win brownie points and defend your Dai you are willing to question the Quran and the Prophet but you forget that by doing so you're only digging a hole for yourself. If it is easy for you cast doubt on the Quran then it's far more easier for us to doubt any sources you may produce in defence of the Dai's un-Islamic practices. Also, the Prophet had the dignity and sense not to allow all sajda to himself especially if he so wanted he could have easily prescribed in "his book". Of course, the same cannot be said of the Dai - and he doesn't even have a book of his own!!!! This only leads a thinking person to conclude that Bohras "believe in" Dai the way some people believe in a guru or bhagwan. Of course, nothing wrong with that - only that it makes abdes a guru-worshipping cult which has nothing to with Islam.

And, BTW, I'm still waiting for your "tangential" interpretation of "no-sajda" to humans in the Quran to "yes-sajda" to Dai. Or is it that you are privy to Dai's revealed book which we do not know about?

[porus]

It descended into the heart of Prophet Muhammad in a single instant on Laylat al-Qadr.

And where in the Quran is this said
And what about the other 'Wahye' if that is 'literally' true

Ya himmar, have you read the following ayats from surat as-shua'raa, surah number 26?


وَإِنَّهُ لَتَنْزِيلُ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

26:192. And indeed, this is a tanzil (quran) from the Lord of the worlds.

نَزَلَ بِهِ الرُّوحُ الْأَمِينُ

26:193. With it has descended trustworthy inspiration

عَلَىٰ قَلْبِكَ لِتَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُنْذِرِينَ

26:194. Upon your heart that you may be among those who warn

****
And, have you read this ayat from surat al-qadr, surah number 97?

إِنَّا أَنْزَلْنَاهُ فِي لَيْلَةِ الْقَدْرِ

97:1. We revealed it (quran) on Laylat al-Qadr.

[porus]

Thats just word play, yaa himmar akhir.
The Quran was revealed through the Prophet. Nobody knew what the Quran was before the Prophet. So the validity of the Quran derives from the validity of his prophethood.
What I am asking is what proves the validity of his prophethood?

Jackass,

You are not worth bothering with.

Ameerul Mumineen, Ali ibn Abi Talib has emphatically stated that "There is nothing greater than the Quran except Allah" (لا شيي اكبر من القرآن دون الله). And that includes the prophets.

Quran states that "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah" (surat al-fath, ayat 29). That is where Muhammad's authority came from. Do you know what Quran's challenge is to those who doubt its authority, you Jaahil?

[anajmi]

The coming of prophet Mohammad has been mentioned in previous scriptures as well. I am hoping that the Dai has mentioned this a few times in his sermons. Even the Quran confirms this.

061.006
YUSUFALI: And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

[Aarif]

Profastian,

Syedna has made it compulsory for bohras to pray 2 rakaat namaz in the middle of farad namaz. On the night of Lailatul-Qadr a munajaat written by syedna and his father was distributed in the masjid. Bohras were asked to standup and read the entire munajaat. The munajaat did contain certain parts describing his greatness and also asking bohras to pray for his long life. And the funny part is that after the munajaat was over abdes were strictly instructed to put it back in a box in the masjid. I am sure this was done with the prime intention to protect the munajaat full of shirk from going out in the public. Also, in every bayaan Syedna tries to create a hysteria by calling himself Dai of Imam Husain. He never uses words like "Inshallah" in his bayaan which shows how much he cares for Allah. The only reason he uses the name of Imam Husain and Karbala is to create a diversion and distract his followers the way we do by showing toys to a crying child. And that is why whether it is marraige or birthday celebration. Bohras are forced to do maatam in the name of Imam Husain. The point is that Syedna is not following Islam but only using it for propogating his own cult. There is no authentic book written by Syedna on Islam. The only book that he has probably written is the one that contains ways and means of becoming rich by milking the community to the last drop. And I am sure Syedna being haq-na-sahib will never publish this book for the benifit of the community and Muslims in general.

[seeker110]

I always wondered how much of a low life it takes to rob poor people of their hard earned money.I understand the fool and his money stuff,but seriously who can be so low to force decent people to give away their bread and water so some magic man can live in a mansion.Br.Arif take some solace,its not your kids stuck with 24/7 shahadat zikir by a uneducated leader.I am sure some of the kids are saying enough is enough.They have ti sit through this so they can collect extra salams.The two rakats is the same as shahadat every day.
I would be asking for a longer life,knowing well in advance the fate that awaits me.Its not that they think people are stupid its Almighty they think will look the other way.Hey look people are praying two rakats so lets go easy on him.Deep down he probably wants to close the shop and rest his bones.To do that one needs to raise decent children,first step would be showing them by doing the right thing yourself.Other wise you have a bunch of parasites,guess what, you yourself become the first target.
They always parish with the head on the platter or long unforgiving life.I say live forever,your children needs you.Head on the platter would be less painful.

[incredible]

awareness about the reading of Quraan with translation is the only solution to remove jahalat from dawoodi bohraa sect period.

[incredible]

Edit

[profastian]

Thats just word play, yaa himmar akhir.
The Quran was revealed through the Prophet. Nobody knew what the Quran was before the Prophet. So the validity of the Quran derives from the validity of his prophethood.
What I am asking is what proves the validity of his prophethood?

Jackass,

You are not worth bothering with.

Ameerul Mumineen, Ali ibn Abi Talib has emphatically stated that "There is nothing greater than the Quran except Allah" (لا شيي اكبر من القرآن دون الله). And that includes the prophets.

Quran states that "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah" (surat al-fath, ayat 29). That is where Muhammad's authority came from. Do you know what Quran's challenge is to those who doubt its authority, you Jaahil?

Ditto.
Prove the authority of the Quran first. Then talk about what the Quran says...

[profastian]

Profastian,

Syedna has made it compulsory for bohras to pray 2 rakaat namaz in the middle of farad namaz. On the night of Lailatul-Qadr a munajaat written by syedna and his father was distributed in the masjid. Bohras were asked to standup and read the entire munajaat. The munajaat did contain certain parts describing his greatness and also asking bohras to pray for his long life. And the funny part is that after the munajaat was over abdes were strictly instructed to put it back in a box in the masjid. I am sure this was done with the prime intention to protect the munajaat full of shirk from going out in the public. Also, in every bayaan Syedna tries to create a hysteria by calling himself Dai of Imam Husain. He never uses words like "Inshallah" in his bayaan which shows how much he cares for Allah. The only reason he uses the name of Imam Husain and Karbala is to create a diversion and distract his followers the way we do by showing toys to a crying child. And that is why whether it is marraige or birthday celebration. Bohras are forced to do maatam in the name of Imam Husain. The point is that Syedna is not following Islam but only using it for propogating his own cult. There is no authentic book written by Syedna on Islam. The only book that he has probably written is the one that contains ways and means of becoming rich by milking the community to the last drop. And I am sure Syedna being haq-na-sahib will never publish this book for the benifit of the community and Muslims in general.

No such thing happened at our mosque. We all have the Munajaat with us.
Read the rasail of Syedna Taher Saifuddin. Show me more authentic books on Islam then those.

[profastian]

And where in the Quran is this said
And what about the other 'Wahye' if that is 'literally' true

Ya himmar, have you read the following ayats from surat as-shua'raa, surah number 26?


وَإِنَّهُ لَتَنْزِيلُ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

26:192. And indeed, this is a tanzil (quran) from the Lord of the worlds.

نَزَلَ بِهِ الرُّوحُ الْأَمِينُ

26:193. With it has descended trustworthy inspiration

عَلَىٰ قَلْبِكَ لِتَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُنْذِرِينَ

26:194. Upon your heart that you may be among those who warn

****
And, have you read this ayat from surat al-qadr, surah number 97?

إِنَّا أَنْزَلْنَاهُ فِي لَيْلَةِ الْقَدْرِ

97:1. We revealed it (quran) on Laylat al-Qadr.

You didnt answer my question. If all the Quran was revealed 'literally' on Laylat-al-Qadr.
What about the other incidents of the Wahye?

[profastian]

profastian,

If there is any validity to your logic, then Ved Vyasa and Valmiki are also telling the truth. People who question the authority of the Quran simply to demonstrate the authority of their own idols are hypocrites (munafiqs) and are bordering on kufr.

I am not questioning the validity of the Quran at all.
What I am saying is that Quran is valid because the Prophet said so. There is no other way to prove to validity of the Quran.
The validity of the prophet, as I said earlier, is Ilm. The prophet had all the answers. If he didn't have any, then everything becomes invalid.
Maula Ali and his progeny derived this authority through Nass and the DAI derived the authority from the Imam.
This argument is simple and logical. Whereas your argument is circular. You say the Prophet derived authority from the Quran(so that you could argue that Maula Ali had no authority, as it is not mentioned explicitly in the Quran) but you provide no proof(logical or literal) about the validity of the Quran(you just quote Quranic Aayah which is again a circular argument).

[Humsafar]

Profastian, forget the Prophet and the Quran for a moment. Let's talk about the Dai. Where does he derives his authority from? If you say it is the ilm then the Prophet's ilm is evident in the Quran. Where is the evidence of Dai's ilm?

[porus]

I am not questioning the validity of the Quran at all.
What I am saying is that Quran is valid because the Prophet said so. There is no other way to prove to validity of the Quran.
The validity of the prophet, as I said earlier, is Ilm. The prophet had all the answers. If he didn't have any, then everything becomes invalid.

Ullu ka patha,

Who is greater, Prophet or Allah? Prophet has said that Quran is from Allah and it is Allah's word. Do you agree with the Prophet? Why?

Muslims look for evidence that 'Quran is Allah' s word' from the Quran itself. Allah does not say 'if you do not believe that Quran is from Allah, go and ask Muhammad. He will confirm it for you." No. Quran offers other arguments for it being from Allah.

Muslims always say that they follow the Quran. They seek clarification from Sunnah. If they contradict, Quran takes the authority. That is why it is always Quran and Sunnah, not the other way around.

If Prophet is his own authority because of his ilm, we may ask who or what is the source of his ilm. If it is Muhammad himself, then you might as well start worshiping Muhammad. Is that what you do with the Dai, Jaahil?

[Aarif]

No such thing happened at our mosque. We all have the Munajaat with us.

Since you have the munajaat with you can you please publish it on this forum for the benefit of others? I am sure the Admin can help you with that. I would really like someone to put that stuff on this forum so that others can read and figure out how Islamic that munajaat is.

[anajmi]

profastian,

Humsafar posts a valid question. Please answer him.

What I am saying is that Quran is valid because the Prophet said so.

No, the Quran would be valid even if it had been dropped on your head without a prophet. The prophet was there simply to deliver the message of the Quran in a simple way so we could understand. The Prophet lived his life according to the message of the Quran so that we could understand the message of the Quran.

If we were to similarly argue about the Dai, we would all be as ignorant about the Quran as the orthos.

[Aarif]

Read the rasail of Syedna Taher Saifuddin.

I think we are talking about the current Dai out here and not his father. The current Dai is close to 100 years old. Isn't a century enough for a person of Syedna's stature to learn the delicate details of Islam and publish some authentic literature for the benefit of Muslims in general instead of writing some shady munajaat full of shirk???

[Muslim First]

Read the rasail of Syedna Taher Saifuddin. Show me more authentic books on Islam then those.

Where canI get copy of this Risala.

I would like to find out how authentic it is.

Can you give it pdf of it to Admin.?

[porus]

No such thing happened at our mosque. We all have the Munajaat with us.

Since you have the munajaat with you can you please publish it on this forum for the benefit of others? I am sure the Admin can help you with that. I would really like someone to put that stuff on this forum so that others can read and figure out how Islamic that munajaat is.

I have a copy of this munajaat. It is a waseela penned for Laylat al-Qadr. It is in Arabic with explanatory translation in Lisaan-e-Daawat.

It is wholly a waseela and an entreaty to Allah. It is baseless to level a charge of shirk or it being unIslamic against the munajaat. It is a model of succinct and beautiful Arabic composition.

[porus]

You didnt answer my question. If all the Quran was revealed 'literally' on Laylat-al-Qadr.
What about the other incidents of the Wahye?

Finally, an intelligent question from our resident jackass!

Is this a contradiction in the Quran? On the one it states that it came down on Layla al-Qadr and, on the other hand, it states that it was revealed in parts.

There are traditions that report that the Quran descended on Layat al-Qadr from Lawh-e-Mahfuz to Bayt al-Izza. To reconcile the tradition with the Quran 97:1, Bayt al-Izza is equated to the heart of the Prophet. That means that the Prophet's whole being was thenceforth imbued with the whole of the Quran. His behavior attests to this fact even before the entire Quran was uttered by him for the benefit of mankind over a period of 23 years.

Another issue is reconciliation of the report that JIbreel brought the revelations to Prophet and the report that Prophet received the revelation in a Wahy, an intuitive inspiration. In Bohra explanations of the Quran, angels and jinns are considered metaphorical. Wahy is an intuition which bubbles over from within the consciousness. Prophet was guided by his consciousness to reveal the Quran when he recognized the occasions for those revelations. Whether Prophet himself was aware of the whole Quran that was within his consciousness is difficult to say.

You will get a similar explanation from your sabaq ustaad. So get it and tell us what you learned from him.