Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#31

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:31 pm

Aarif wrote:
The current situation of our community is such that you cannot remain a bohra and a muslim at a same time and if bohras want to become muslims they will have to grow a pair of balls and defy their NON muslim dai.
arif, your statement seems to assume that bohras want to be muslims or that they identify with muslims. they are in fact brainwashed to believe that 'ola musalmano' are jaahils and kafirs and destined for hell. they are also incessantly reminded that ola musalmano are enemies and haters of ali and his progeny.

publicly bohras show that they are pucca muslims, but secretly they do not believe they are muslims at all. such is our hypocrisy.

bensaheba
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Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#32

Unread post by bensaheba » Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:26 pm

Dear Al Zulfiqar, Arif and S. Insaf : I wouldn't go so far as to say Dawoodi bohras are not muslims, by the definition of a muslim anyone who reads and believes in heart the kalematus Shahadat is a muslim and WE do. However, after doing that we digress immediately to teachings of this and the previous Dai with the claim as to who else better exists in in front of your eyes (as Imam is in Parda and not in front of your eyes) to follow.
My suggestion is to submit the urdu or english translation of misaq, and a list of other unislamic practices to the same body who declared Qadiyanis as non-muslims and were about to declare Aga Khanis as non muslims when Aga Khan interfered in time to stop them by bribing to build the Aga khan hospital in Karachi for the muslim Ummah. Once this body of islamists review our practices and visit the darbar of aqa Maola or shahzadas then they can decide to classify us as non muslims. Then they can make a list of things or practices we need to drop to be counted back in the fold of Islam. They should be warned ahead of time not to get swayed by the bribing that is bound to come from Kothar.
This is a CAN DO project , it won't take a whole lot of people. In my opinion just Al Zulfiqar and S. Insaf joining forces would be sufficient.

Humsafar
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Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#33

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:28 pm

Aarif, it is correct that most of the problems in our community stem from the abuse of religion but it is wrong to argue that we need "religious reforms". What we need to do is end that abuse, and that we can do by exposing these malpractices in the light of religion. And this the reformists have been doing for a long time. For example, take just one issue of sajda to Dai - it has been time and again proved in the light of the Quran and Ismaili beliefs that it is wrong, and the abdes have danced around the issue but have never been able to justify the practice in any credible way. So, yes we need reforms but not by "reforming" religion but ending the perversion and abuse of religion.
As for misaaq there is nothing wrong with it as long as it is practiced as a rite of passage, a ritual vow to accept and practice one's faith. It become a problem when it is used as an instrument of control and coercion - and this is what we are opposing, and exposing in the light of Ismaili history. As they say it is the truth that will set us free - so long as bohras remain ignorant of their religion and history they will continue to be exploited. Of course, the same could said of the ignorant Muslims or ignorant anybody. Knowledge and awareness are the key. Everybody is out there want to take advantage of our ignorance, and Bohra clergy seems to be the smartest of all.

mumin
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Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#34

Unread post by mumin » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:09 pm

salams; behen saheba; I concur with your plan. It was some time back that a journalist from the well known Karachi news paper
"Dawn" had come to interveiw the then bhai saheb of Karachi. He had all the information at his disposal to expose the kothar in practicing all the unislamic ways and fooling the bohri mumineen. No sooner did the Kothar come to know about it that the strength of money took over right and wrong and everything was hushed up. so much so is this strength of money and the kothar has so much of it to use in such circumstances that even to day , if you write a letter contradictory to the practice of islam in bohri religion and ask for it to be published in the coloumns of this news paper; it will not be published.

Biradar
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Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#35

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:16 pm

Humsafar and Al Zulfiqar,

First, I think debate is healthy and discussion of religious doctrines is inevitable and should be encouraged. However, we need to separate this from the social progress that needs to be achieved. If we are not to rely on the power of mullahs and amils to run our lives, we need to find a way to make them comply to our needs and not the other way round. The reason I brought up the legal avenue is that in that case there is a forum for redress (i.e. secular courts and a common civil law). Presently too much depends on the whims of the local amil.

Zulfiqar, I do not mean people should not get married in a traditional manner. Simply that after getting a legal licence the mullahs must comply and do the needful to get a nikah or a divorce. That way it is the clergy that would change and not us. In the US, for example, a legal licence via a civil marriage is needed even if you decide to get a religious ceremony performed.

As for the political nature of Ismaili/Bohra belief. All religious beliefs are, ultimately, politically motivated. We could claim the same for the prophet himself, who was both the spiritual and political head during his time. Islam does not make much distinction between masjid and state. The Imams were simultaneously religious as well as political leaders. I agree that all beliefs need to be examined closely and tracing the origins is an interesting topic. However, we should distinguish between (a) the belief itself (b) the origins and explanations for it.

Beliefs are held and they need to be understood in the context of how they enter into a person's life. We are not talking here about beliefs practiced in the past, but that as lived by most Bohras. Certainly, scholars should look at the origins of these beliefs and study them, but that is a separate activity than holding those beliefs. We should not conflate the two. What my suggestion is that to most Bohras these beliefs are very sacred. Simply dismissing them as inventions, political necessity, un-Islamic etc is not a good strategy for those who want to bring social progress among the majority. We can not say to someone: your beliefs were simply politically expedient at one time and are not needed anymore, please discard them in toto.

I think bensaheba's suggestion is very silly and ridiculous. First, who has given some random set of people an authority to judge our practices? The Ismailis/Bohras were persecuted for centuries by these very people. Do we want this to continue? What sort of self-loathing is this? These very self-appointed people put to death S. Qutbuddin.

Also, Zulfiqar, please let us know how you can confidently claim that the da'is before 46th were undisputed? There have been continuous disputes and splits. The Alavi and Sulemani bohras are two that survived (in addition to Dawoodis). In addition there were local rebellions throughout our history. Probably, those people thought of themselves as progressives. The modern progressive movement is, however, unique in that it officially claims to be a secular movement and not one to reform religious beliefs. It still needs to resolve the inherent contradiction in such a position, but it can be done.

Also, the problem is that "progressives have been shouting themselves hoarse". A more reasoned voice is needed. Continuous foul mouthed tirades alienate people and, eventually, they stop listening to us. We all see the behaviour of the so-called "true" religious believers on this forums, of all stripes, Sunni, Bohra, Ismaili. Do we, as progressives, also need to adopt the same hoarse and shrill voice?

I do not hold progressives in contempt. In fact, I respect people like Dr. Engineer, Humsafar, S. Insaf and many others. However, do not think that respect implies agreeing with whatever they say. These individuals are fallible themselves and without healthy criticism progress can not be made.

I agree with Humsafar's suggestion that the misaq, for example, be treated as a rite-of-passage and not a document that somehow binds the person to a virtual slavery. However, no amil will accept this proposition in the current climate. How will we get to such a state? Of course, we must examine the contents of the misaq, discover its roots, it textual history etc. However, lets keep the intellectual analysis separate from the aim of achieving social reform and winning over orthodox bohras to our side.

anajmi
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Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#36

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:36 pm

First, I think debate is healthy and discussion of religious doctrines is inevitable and should be encouraged. However, we need to separate this from the social progress that needs to be achieved.
This is not possible. The progressives have achieved nothing to date because they keep saying that they are not against the seat of the Dai and only want reform and social progress. Everything that is wrong with the bohras can be easily traced back to the innovations they have introduced in their religion. You want religious beliefs to be examined closely but do not want S. Insaf to say what he says about Imam and Dai. Religious beliefs cannot be examined unless you go back to the beginning. You can't just take this "power" out of the hands of the mullahs and still claim to be a following this religion. The only way, in this particular case, to take the power out of the hands of the mullahs is to declare yourself a disbeliver in the religion of the mullahs. That way, you can go to the secular courts for marriage and divorce.

Aarif
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Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#37

Unread post by Aarif » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:50 pm

publicly bohras show that they are pucca muslims, but secretly they do not believe they are muslims at all. such is our hypocrisy.
Br. AZ,
This hypocracy needs to be exposed. Not only to the external muslim world but also to the internal bohra world. Today bohras are highly discouraged from reading translated Quran, sunnah of prophet and other Islamic literature. Religious illiteracy is the root of all evil. E.g. as Humsafar has mentioned that sajda to dai has been discussed N number of times on this forum but the abdes keep denying the fact that it is unislamic. Well this may be true but think about thousands of people visiting this website and reading about it. Does it not atleast make them think that whatever they are doing is unislamic and should be stopped? And if that is the case I would say we have made some progress out here.
They should be warned ahead of time not to get swayed by the bribing that is bound to come from Kothar.
Well, this is a tough cookie. The kothar, as you have yourself admitted is highly experienced at buying people for their selfish motives. I feel that to put this in action, someone will have to expose the unislamic practices in our community without involving kothar.
it is wrong to argue that we need "religious reforms"
Humsafar,
When I am talking about religious reforms in bohra community, I am reffering to the unislamic practices carried out in the name of Islam. Religious reforms in our community according to me means abolition of unislamic practices from our community.
As for misaaq there is nothing wrong with it as long as it is practiced as a rite of passage, a ritual vow to accept and practice one's faith.
If Misaq cannot be justified in the light of Quran it should not be mandatory for dawoodi bohras to give Misaaq. Making Misaaq compulsory is the first problem. Wouldn't you agree to the fact that our community will be much better off without Misaq? Naa rahega baas naa bajegi bansuri... Because bohras believe in Misaq syedna's father modified it to suit his purpose. Destroying a poisonous tree from its roots could be the best option in this case.

Humsafar
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Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#38

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:55 pm

bensaheb, I hate to use this cliche but reformists have left no stone unturned in exposing the bohra clergy to Muslim ulema (at least in India) but to no avail. Every Muslim leader with any influence has been bought over. Same with the Waqf boards. Of course, reformists get much play in the English and Hindi media criticing the clergy but so long as the Muslim leaders remain quiet nothing much can be done. Br. mumin's story about the karachi journalist can be readily believed. In fact, it would not be far fetched to assume that the clergy paid a two-bit Pakistani maulana some years ago to do a hatchet job on Asghar Ali Engineer condemning him as anti-Islamic and much worse. That article was posted on this forum.

anajmi, I know where you going with this - but the fault is not with the doctrine (within the strict framework of religion) if it is then rightfully we should go back right to the beginning... to the Quran and the Prophet. But of course we do not want to do that. Do we? The problem is the abuse and misinterpretation of doctrine, and the Bohra problem in essence is no different from the general Muslim problem where the Wahabis and jihadists have monpolised the interpretation of the Quran. The only difference is that bohra clergy has found the way to terrorise their abdes in an exceptionally unique way. They must take out a patent on that!!!

Humsafar
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Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#39

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:13 pm

Aarif, misaaq has been made into something fundamental for an average Bohra. Rooting for its banishment will only alienate people and bring charges that we are intent on changing religion. So long as people understand its historical and religious context misaaq will lose its bite. As it has among reformists. For us it is not compulsory - it's just a nice-to-have as part of our tradition, and parents willing opt for it for their sons and daughters as it is seen as a rite of passage, a renewal of shia/ismaili faith. As Biradar mentioned in one of his posts, even if there were no misaaq it would still not end our problems - the devious clergy will bend some other tenet to their advantage. We can't keep discarding everything that the clergy abuses, a better way is to expose them. And I admit, there would be no end to it. Didn't some wise one say, eternal vigilance is the price of freedom.

bensaheba
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Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#40

Unread post by bensaheba » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:16 pm

Dear Biradar, Humsafar, Arif : Didn't we say earlier that we don't have a credible voice to speak up, if some one dares to speak up they are shunned and banned from Jamaat. In my previous post I was trying to offer a way to get a credible voice that can not be quieted by banning. I know, in the past a lot of journalists, newspapers, and ulema have been bought. The voice of several comissions has not sunk into the kothari heads, the decisions of the court have not been followed by the clergy and the kothar. By having an outside body of Islamic ulema look into the affairs and practices of the Dawoodi Bohras it will give credibility and wih the threat of being declared non muslims may be the kothar would listen and abandon some of the practices and remove some of the harshest conditions from misaq. During the time we are declared non muslims by this body, our firm and strong beliefs in our religion will remain firm and strong but exposure to the external body will be like getting a little sun shine which is a strong disinfectant.

Biradar
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Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#41

Unread post by Biradar » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:28 pm

benasaheba: Your suggestion is completely sensless. By credible, I mean credible to the community, withing our religious context. Sunni ulema hate Shias of all stripes. Even Shias will not accept Ismaili/Bohra position due to historical succesion disputes. Have you forgotten your history? Just such an examination by fanatic bigots led to the death, at an advanced age, of S. Qutbuddin. Do we want to be presecuted all over again? A reform effort has to be situated in the Bohra religious outlook. Arguments from outside, say from Sunni or Shia ulema, will not matter, anyway, to the Bohra clergy, and, in a certain sense, rightly so.

anajmi
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Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#42

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:46 pm

but the fault is not with the doctrine (within the strict framework of religion)
Well, if there is no fault with the doctrine then the abdes are the true followers of this doctrine. The Dai is the ultimate owner of the jaan and maal of the bohra manus as per the misaq which is an integral part of this doctrine.

And since the wahhabis are misusing religion just as much as the bohra clergy is, I guess it is now ok.

Aarif
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Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#43

Unread post by Aarif » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:58 pm

For us it is not compulsory - it's just a nice-to-have as part of our tradition,
That's the way it should be for others as well. The moment you make it mandatory and add nonsensical text on top of it, it no longer remains Misaaq. It becomes a slavery agreement. I am against this slavery contract which has replaced traditional misaq. How about replacing the dicy misaq text with traditional kalma? And in that case even if it is made compulsory I would not mind it.

Birader,
You cannot dismiss the idea of exposing unislamic practices in our community on the pretext of shia-sunni strife. And also you cannot dismiss the obvious facts indicating how much of a true muslim a present dawoodi bohra is? Who will expose our community is not so important at this point of time. What is important is to realize and acknowledge that we are on the wrong path and we have to correct this deviation. The purpose is there. Now we have to find the means. And I believe that this site is one of the places where reformist minded people like us try to expose our corrupt clergy and their corrupt practices. The only problem is that tools like this site expects a person to be Internet savvy and still 60-70% bohras live in villages and small towns from where they do not have access to these kind of tools...

accountability
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Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#44

Unread post by accountability » Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:39 pm

I agree with biradar, it is not all appropriate to invite foriegn intervention, specially religious one. First it will be bigot against bigot, second religion or religiousity seldom cares for justice and fair play. we will be persecuted in the name of islam like ahmadis etc.
we dont want to refom the religion, we want to reform the day to day running. Religions are all the same, this or that.
it is not shia sunni problem, because we are neither. shias hate us more than sunni do. All we have to do is gather some courage, and have balls to stand up against amils and jamats. Once they know they cannot intimidate and people are not ready to take it any more, their arrogance will be history. And once prince and princess are cut to size, and made human beings, all our woes will end.
Mind it, most of muslim and arab countries carry death sentence for irtidad ( apostacy). it will not be kothar who will be persecuted but ordinary fanatic bohras. it is never wise to bore a hole in the same boat you are travelling.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#45

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:12 pm

Some of the observations made by Justice Nathwani Commission on "Misaq" :-

In the case Advocate General of Bombay V/s Yusuf Ali & Others reported in 24 BLR. 1060 (Supra) also known as Chanda Bhoy Galla Case, the predecessor of the present Sayedna Saheb was himself a defendant. His name was Taher Saifuddin Saheb. He had given oral evidence. He had himself produced a document purporting to be Misaq. Its English translation was also kept on record. It was Ex. 17 on the record of the case. Justice Marten has in his judgemnet of the case characterized it as a 'remarkable' document. Remarkable, indeed, it is!

It was claimed as a secret document by Taher Saifuddin Saheb. It has, therefore, not been fully set out in the judgment of the Bombay High Court. But Justice Matten has referred to it and has noted that according to Taher Saifuddin Saheb himself it was ninety years old. This evidence was given in 1920 A.D. Therefore, according to the then high priest himself its origin is not very antiquated. It must have been written around the Year 1833 A.D. The date of writing has been mentioned at the foot of the document by the author which is 1248 Hijra which comes to 1833 A.D.

Another witness has produced a printed book entitled “Mussalman Wakf Act and the Dawoodi Bohra Community” which he says he had got printed in 1933. It contains about 29 documents inluding the memorial and representations made to various authorities by the reformist section of Dawoodi Bohras requesting them not to accept the demand made by some Bohras to exempt the Dawoodi Bohras from the Mussalaman Wakf Act 1923.

The book contains at serial No. 7 the document ‘Misaq' in English translation. This translation also tallies with the copy referred to earlier. We are, therefore, satisfied that what we have is an authentic copy of the Misaq as it was produced by Taher Saifuddin (51st Dai) in the Court. We are also satisfied that the same document is today being used by the priestly class while administering Misaq.

Taher Saifuddin had claimed that the document produced by him was a secret document. We are unable to see how it can be so claimed when it is administered to every Bohra Youth by Amils and the High priest himself. There may have been some need for secrecy when Ismailis were fearing persecution by the sovereign rulers or by other sects but after the establishment and consolidation of the British rule and then after the advent of independence no one can seriously contend that the High priest or priestly class or the community as a whole stand in the danger of facing religious persecution from others.

This document affects a large number of Dawoodi Bohras. The claim to secrecy is, therefore, out of question and we would not be justified in refraining from putting it on our record and incorporating it in our report. Besides, it has been published several times. The latest is its publication in New Quest (issue no. 7 Jan Feb 1978) published from Pune.

This document is virtually a charter of slavery, in particular, paragraphs, 4, 5, 6, 7, 11, 12, and 13 are remarkable for their unabashed inhumanity.

Paragraph 2 commits every Dawoodi Bohra to absolute obedience of the orders of Dai of Imam i.e. Sayedna Saheb of the time. Disobedience is a sin. It is an advance commitment to obey all the commands of Dai of the time in future by a minor child without even knowing what those commands will be.

It is claimed by the priestly class that this oath is voluntarily taken. They argue that if one does not desire to accept the high priest as the master of his life, one should not take the oath! This is an untenable argument because it is maintained in the same breath that "no one is a Dawoodi Bohra by birth but he becomes one only when he makes that oath."

The implication of the oath is thus clear. It is that a promise of absolute obedience to all the future commands of the dai, whatever they are, and whatever be their subject matter, is a condition of being a Dawoodi Bohra. One has to accept the Dai not merely as a religious head but as a master in secular affairs as well! This puts the Dai in the position of an absolute dictator controlling all aspects of the life of all members of the community.

Even God is not above the Dai. Because the oath says that if Dai's orders are broken even God will not pardon the person who has disobeyed the Dai's orders. If he however again takes the oath of allegiance to the Dai, God will be pleased to pardon him. A benevolent God may pardon the sinner even though he has sinned against His own commands but He cannot pardon the man or woman who disobeys the Dai's orders!

And what is the sanction for breach of the covenant? Not merely the fear of hell and torture in the next life but complete ostracism and pauperization in this life as well! His property should be looted and his nearest relations should break away from him. His wife stands automatically divorced!

It should be noted that a reformist is not entitled to dissuade a Bohra youth from giving the misaq. This means that the guardian of minor cannot tell his ward not to give misaq if he doesn't agree. The minor of 15 years of age should set his face against his guardian if the latter tries to dissuade him.

A transgressor of the oath must give Misaq again and express his repentance and give a deed of apology if he wants to return to the fold. Several witnesses have produced the terms of apology which they were asked to accept and sign.

The Misaq it should be noted, is not prescribed by the Quran or by the tradition of Mohammed. It is a typical Ismaili-Dawoodi institution. It is not obligatory on Muslims except Dawoodi Bohras. Some sort of 'Ahd' or oath is found among another Isma'ili sect called Sulaimani Bohras. But it is not so rigid or harsh. No other Muslim sect practices Misaq or its equivalent.

However, after the disappearance of the Fatimid power the Misaq lost its raison d'etre and seems to have been retained for its symbolic or ritual value. The Dais who officiated as the heads of the Isma'ili mission after the last Isma'ili Imam went into seclusion continued to take Misaq more or less as a ritual. It is also important to remember that right from the beginning the Misaq was taken for the Imam and not for the Dai.

Thus one of the earlier Dai-al-mutalaq says in his book Tahfut-ul-Qulub that "it does not behoove a Dai to ascribe a single word of the Misaq towards himself." He also makes it clear in the said book that Misaq is essentially for the purpose of strengthening the Isma'ili faith and not achieving any worldly end. Most of the Dais after the last Isma'ili Imam went into seclusion, faithfully, observed these instructions and never exploited Misaq for worldly ends.

The 51st Dai however used misaq to build a personality cult. What had eventually become a ritual was revived and strictly enforced thus using it as a weapon for centralizing power and building his own empire. He used it as a standing threat to coerce Dawoodi Bohras into submission and to make them obey his commands not only in the religious but also in the secular field. This came into his hands as a powerful instrument for concentrating power and collecting wealth on a fantastically large scale. Thus the personality cult came to be systematically built by him.

A word for every letter of the Urdu Alphabet is coined which glorifies him in every manner. Whatever be the correct position and whatever the historical justification or otherwise for introducing the Misaq, the fact remains that the Misaq in its present form is absolutely oppressive, harsh and inconsistent with human rights.

To judge its true character, it is immaterial in our view, whether it was prevalent in the 11th century and continued in the 20th. Hoary antiquity cannot sanctify what is essentially destructive of human dignity and freedom. Untouchability and Slavery were also age-old institutions but were cast away by the civilized mankind. Nothing that is inhuman can be justified merely because it assumes the cloak of religious practice nor can it gain sanctity by virtue of its antiquity.

byline: Excerpts from the Nathwani Commission Report

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/index.php?mac ... eturnid=97

anajmi
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Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#46

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:42 pm

Even God is not above the Dai. Because the oath says that if Dai's orders are broken even God will not pardon the person who has disobeyed the Dai's orders. If he however again takes the oath of allegiance to the Dai, God will be pleased to pardon him. A benevolent God may pardon the sinner even though he has sinned against His own commands but He cannot pardon the man or woman who disobeys the Dai's orders!
This stems from a similar status that is given to Hazrat Ali by the shias. The Dai has simply extrapolated this belief to get himself included in this corrupted doctrine.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#47

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:56 pm

Humsafar wrote:
- so long as bohras remain ignorant of their religion and history they will continue to be exploited. Of course, the same could said of the ignorant Muslims or ignorant anybody. Knowledge and awareness are the key. Everybody is out there want to take advantage of our ignorance, and Bohra clergy seems to be the smartest of all.
humsafar, everybody is aware that the reason why our bohras are so ignorant of islam and our own deen today, inspite of being far better educated and business savvy in a high-tech age, compared to say the bohras of 50 years ago, is simple. the cunning clergy has decided very cleverly to keep them ignorant from any real knowledge, by way of facts, previous history or practices. this they have managed to do by:
1. shifting the focus of bohras onto only 1 central figure, the dai. he is made to appear as the repository of all truth and knowledge, his word is divine and his persona ethereal, his bayans drip with the nectar of humanity, godliness, spirituality and the secrets of the universe, his every word is emanating from Allah himself. why would any bohra need books, libraries & external sources to enlighten himself when u have the veritable bhagwan in front of you?
2. all mention of the prophets and sahabas is become superficial and in passing. lots of words are said without any substantial delving into their lives of austerity and hardship, their sacrifices, their devotion to the cause and their ultimate shahadat. the philosophy or the spirituality behind their acts are glossed over and buried deep under multiple layers of tear jerking, grief laden stories of hussain and kerbala etc. the bohras are stupid and naive enough not to even realise that a fast one has been pulled on them! they talk of ali in passing, mourn his shahadat, talk glowingly of his strength and bravery, the wars he fought, but conveniently hide mention of his supreme acts of selfless generosity, his simple hard life, his integrity, his extreme honesty and concern for his people - facts which would highlight their own avarice, life of indolence and loot of the community.
3. they have, as mentioned by me elsewhere on this forum, taken away all books - rare religious treasures and scripts - from bohras under a systematic campaign under the ex syedna.
4. they have instituted an insidious method for inquisitive bohras to acquire knowledge by starting this business of sabaks wherein they brainwash and condition the gullible bohras to believe in the ultimate truth - the dai is actually the imam and what u see is not what is real. the world is a maya jaal etc.
5. they have clearly forbidden bohras to attend other muslims' speeches, seminars or moharram bayans. this is considered an act of na farmaani to dai.

this overall strategy has been so successful that today 99% of our bohras dont know our history beyond the last 50-60 years. its proof is the ignorant and loutish fanatics who come here.

re: the aspect of bensaheba proposing to enlist the support of the larger muslim ummah in our fight and the reaction of many well-intentioned bohras like biradar, accountability, et al opposing it on grounds of providing fodder to our traditional detractors; let me point out that the last 2 syednas have not shrunk from using the sunni and other muslims to defeat the reformists and harass and persecute them. they have had no compunctions using the so-called anti-shia, vehement wahabi type, strident mulla fanatics to whip up religious fervor against the reformists and their leaders. they have bribed, dined and fed such low-lifes, given them lavish receptions and poisoned their ears so they can spit fire on the reformists. if this dirty game can be played by the dais, whats now the great outrage if someone is suggesting using the same tactics? atleast we have the truth on our side. when the syednas have shown no morals and integrity while hob-nobbing with and licking the backsides of goondas like bal thackeray, narendra modi, and in the past proven criminals like karim lala and yusuf pathan etc, then what have u got to say?

all this talk of wanting only social reform, while not touching the religion and its practice, is futile and the entire endeavour a moot exercise. you see the rascally clergy, by so very closely intertwining both the social and religious aspects of the bohra deen, have successfully disarmed and taken the reformists' teeth out. the reformist tiger has been defanged as it were. now when u talk of any social reform, the fanatic bohra immediately equates it with tampering in religion. the masterful chanakyas of saifee mahal have perfected the ultimate rope trick!

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#48

Unread post by accountability » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:24 pm

Brother Al Zulfiqar

I agree with you too, actually you have precisely described our state of affairs. Present bohra administration is using religion as a tool to prepetuate their financial and personal intrest. To tell you the truth, I dont see any way out except whinning here and there, unless zombies are awaken from their deep slumber and they regain their state of mind.

seeker110
Posts: 1730
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#49

Unread post by seeker110 » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:55 pm

The correct age and time of Mishaq should be time when nikah is performed.At 14 or 15 the person is still a child.Does anybody believe that the person at that age is worldly wise.As long as society do not hold one responsible for their acts,how can religion just come out to say you are old enough to give the rest of your life to a cult.People get out of the past,live for future.Yesterday is past.

bensaheba
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:01 pm

Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#50

Unread post by bensaheba » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:08 am

Dear Al zulfiqar, biradar, and Accountability: Keeping on the topic and not getting personal I must mention to biradar in addition to what all Al Zulfiqar has mentioned about the 2 Dais using Sunnis, shais, and Modi and Bal thakeray et al in beating up the reformist, that Syedna Qutubuddin's times were very different, he lived in a kingdom where Shaikh Sulaiman and his followers and Ebrahim and Ali and their followers became turncoats and got the ear of the king, we live in democracy with religious freedom to follow whatever our heart desires. So, you need not use fear to scare and quiet the reformists down, no such thing will happen to this or any other future Dai. Accountability, you are like a cat on the wall or a true double face. You disagreed with me on my earlier post but agreed with Al Zulfiqar when he said the same thing in a different manner.It is hard to tell if you and Biradar are kothari implants to discourage and scare the reformists from any action just like the clergies do with the masses of the Bohras.
We have been talking and talking on this Forums for years now and that has not accomplished anything. Kothar has become a monster in the meantime and needs a good kick in his balls to straighten it out. Time has come to get a lot of outside organizations involved, I also suggest an english version of misaq be sent to United Nations Human rights division so they can stop branding the Dai as an Ambassador of Peace.
Syedna Qutubuddin's time all his library was taken and reviewed, here we are not suggesting any such thing except to look at our practices and incognito attend the darbar of Syedna and his bayans to see what goes on and what is said in them, very little knowledge but a lot of I love you and you love me and when he needs few minutes break he stops on Ya Hussain so the followers can fill the time gap in purjosh maatam.
I firmly believe in the concepts of my religion but I find it hard to swallow what is being dished out these days.

incredible
Posts: 1034
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:44 pm

Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#51

Unread post by incredible » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:46 am

hehe ^ this woman has so much guts,much better then gay jamaat members of many jamiyat. i suggest progressive to drop Ali asger and make her your new leader,she sounds too good.

S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#52

Unread post by S. Insaf » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:02 am

Dawoodi Bohra Reform Movement is a mass movement, it is not a leader-laid movement. Syedna Saheb tried to break this movement by taking in his Misaq its leaders like Mr. Sajjad Jaipuri, Mr. Gulam Husain Manager, Mr. Ebrahim Engineer, Mr. Ebrahim Merchant, Mr. Husaini Sanchawala etc., it made no difference and the movement is going on stronger day by day.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#53

Unread post by accountability » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:16 am

Bensaheba, thankyou for your comments. Please allow me not to answer the comments you made about me. Now getting back to subject. It is true I disagreed with you, and agreed with AZ, it does make a difference how you put forward your case. By disagreeing with you and Arif, I was not principally opposed, but I was only disagreeing with the tactics.
As I see, religious leaders ( sunni, shia, bohra et al) are bigotted one way or other. Asking one bigot to right the wrong of another bigot may not get us anywhere. I had explained why I think involving religious leaders will not bear result.
If you are aware of plight of Ahmadis in Pakistan, and how they are persecuted because of their beliefs. Such is the case with Bihais in Iran, religious minorities in saudia, Chinese in Indonesia, Gypsies in Hungary and Bulgaria.
I do agree with your last post, I had already suggested that United Nations Human Rights commission is the appropriate forum to raise unhumane practices of Bohra Administration.
I have worked with amnesty International on several occassions, 2 years ago, we were working on a Qadiani case ( they also have to pay to remain in, theirs is also cultish in nature like our). He was denied permission on one occassion because he had not paid for several years, His warehouse was adjuscent to one of my friends fabrication facility. He was not poor but being progressive he defied them. I told him to launch a human right complaint against their jamat whose HQ is in England. We did it, after three months, he was called by his jamat, he was accorded red carpet treatment. Priest was so polite, he said if you had any grevience why didn't you come to me, and everything was taken care of.
If we can garner enough signatures, we can petition UN commission for human rights.
Misaq has become a tool, but being a religious obligation, it is a pre requisite for Baligh to be in the fold. Whenever misaq is read, it seems like medieval slavery. This is what they want, slaves.

It takes long to get rid of religious slavery, it took almost 1600 years for Christians to get out of this yoke. Though Dawat is almost 900 years old, but religious slavery had started in past 100 or so years. One whole generation is brainwashed and mesmerized in the name of personality cult.
Like Insaf bhai said, there were desertions, those progressive minded people who re entered may still be progressive, but communal and social requirements made them to re enter.
I still think that weakening Amil, and highlighting Amil’s atrocities and his misdoings will be the right way to achieve progress. There are examples when some one just stood up and challenged amil, either he backed totally or partially.

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#54

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:31 am

bensaheba's suggestion is worthing trying, that is if it's not been tried already. However, the cruel fact is that unless the bohras themselves wake up and demand reforms there can be no meaningful change. As we have experienced in the past, every outside pressure and condemnation has only strengthened the Kothar's grip on the community and insulated it further from the outside world. The wiley clergy knows how to manipulate every criticism of the Kothar into an attack on their Maula, on their faith "engineered" by dushmano. And neutered abdes lap it up without batting an eyelid. There is no way we can win the propaganda game with them. But this is no reason not to try, what else is reform movement for?
Br. incredible, reformists don't need a new leader because as Inasf saheb says we are not a leader-based movement. It's abdes who need something new - an awakening. All we need is a few bensaheba in every jamaat to kick butt. I'm of the belief that ultimately it's the Bohra women who hold the key. Once they start speaking up the men will follow. It would be a good idea for more women to join the forum. People like bensaheba can start publicising it among friends and family.

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#55

Unread post by Aarif » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:34 am

By disagreeing with you and Arif, I was not principally opposed, but I was only disagreeing with the tactics.
A/C,

Read my post to Biradar below:
Birader,
Who will expose our community is not so important at this point of time. What is important is to realize and acknowledge that we are on the wrong path and we have to correct this deviation. The purpose is there. Now we have to find the means. And I believe that this site is one of the places where reformist minded people like us try to expose our corrupt clergy and their corrupt practices. The only problem is that tools like this site expects a person to be Internet savvy and still 60-70% bohras live in villages and small towns from where they do not have access to these kind of tools...
I am open to any tactic as long as it works. I guess you were in a hurry to comment. I feel that extreme deviation from original Islam is the root of all problems in our community. Practices like sajda to Dai, two rakat namaz for his long life, considering him a representative of hidden Imam etc. are used to control the minds of dawoodi bohras. These are the outcomes of the Misaq which gives autonomous power to dai in abcence of Imam. The FUNNY part is neither imamat nor Daism is mentioned in Quran. But a dawoodi bohra has to follow this chain in-order to lead a life of a good muslim. The reformists do not have a problem with the post of Dai. But they have a problem with the current Dai. This raises an interesting question. Let's say the reformist are able to overthrow the current dai and replace him with an ideal Dai. What is the guarantee that after he comes to power he will not misuse it? Remember power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. A known devil is always better than an unknown devil. And in that sense should we be OK with the current dai? The point is, as long as we will keep the concept of Dai alive there will be a chance of misuse or abuse of power associated with his post. I feel that we as a community seriously need to evaluate our core beliefs in light of Islam and fix them for good. I don't think that we will ever be able to establish accountability and democracy in the current scheme of things. As long as we have a dai he will never allow this to happen. The future syedna will only be worse than the present syedna. With each generation the corruption in our community will increase ten fold...

accountability
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Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#56

Unread post by accountability » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:52 am

I am sorry Arif if you took that impression.
What you are suggesting is total abolishing of the faith. Dai is center of dawoodi bohra mustaali ismaili fatimi faith. There are many things which is not mentioned in Quran. If you do away with dai, there wont be any community or faith left. Everyone will be on their own.

bensaheba
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:01 pm

Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#57

Unread post by bensaheba » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:03 pm

Accountability: I am sorry for calling you a double face and take back my comment, now that you explained your reasons.

To all other reformists (excluding the pseudos and gawkers)

Talking is done and now we shaould start action: As I see it we need the following to get started
1) An english translation of the current Misaq and if possible an old misaq to show the tampering to subjugate the masses.
2) A list of Un-islamic practices, atrocities, cultish behaviors, fund-rasings and abuse of funds etc. this has to be comprehensive and titled as such and well-written. All this will take time to develop but let us assign tasks and deadlines for completion.
3) We need volunteers who are located in the right places, i.e. New York for UN, Washington DC for CAIR and congressmen and Senators and other lobbys dealing with human condition, Islamabad, lucknow, New Delhi Middle East, etc. these volunteers need to be able to articulate well with others. and please send your names to following people whose e-mail addresses will be posted later on.
4) we can not discuss these on this open forum so we need couple members e-mail adresses to communicate so we don't tip the hands of kothar so they can be a step ahead of us in defeating all our efforts.

The kotharis may have deep pockets for money and access to the best Law firms on the Wall Street but let us show them that we are the ant that brought down the elephant.

Any Takers???

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#58

Unread post by Aarif » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:07 pm

If you do away with dai, there wont be any community or faith left. Everyone will be on their own.
Even with the Dai in place we are miles away from Islam. What do you think about that???

incredible
Posts: 1034
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:44 pm

Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#59

Unread post by incredible » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:26 pm

bensaheba wrote:Accountability: I am sorry for calling you a double face and take back my comment, now that you explained your reasons.

To all other reformists (excluding the pseudos and gawkers)

Talking is done and now we shaould start action: As I see it we need the following to get started
1) An english translation of the current Misaq and if possible an old misaq to show the tampering to subjugate the masses.
2) A list of Un-islamic practices, atrocities, cultish behaviors, fund-rasings and abuse of funds etc. this has to be comprehensive and titled as such and well-written. All this will take time to develop but let us assign tasks and deadlines for completion.
3) We need volunteers who are located in the right places, i.e. New York for UN, Washington DC for CAIR and congressmen and Senators and other lobbys dealing with human condition, Islamabad, lucknow, New Delhi Middle East, etc. these volunteers need to be able to articulate well with others. and please send your names to following people whose e-mail addresses will be posted later on.
4) we can not discuss these on this open forum so we need couple members e-mail adresses to communicate so we don't tip the hands of kothar so they can be a step ahead of us in defeating all our efforts.

The kotharis may have deep pockets for money and access to the best Law firms on the Wall Street but let us show them that we are the ant that brought down the elephant.

Any Takers???

good idea do let us(pseudo and gawkers) know the end results,on this very forum.

Fatwa Banker
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Misaq to Dai - is the Root of all the Evils

#60

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:27 pm

Aarif wrote:Even with the Dai in place we are miles away from Islam.
That is quite okay as the true followers of Islam are busy blowing up mosques at the moment.

The reformers have made it clear from the beginning that they want to reform the community from within, accept and respect the position of the Dai, but have transparency and accountability. They are not interested in turning Bohras into Wahabis.

Reforming a free people who knowingly choose subserviency, of their free will, is an uphill battle. Once you throw religion into the mix (any religion) it becomes insurmountable. Perhaps some students of history on this board can illustrate if such a transformation has occured before.