syedna vs agha khan

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
salim
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 4:01 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#31

Unread post by salim » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:53 am

Muslim First

I will try to mention all your questions in this post -

There is nowhere in Quran where it says that you have to pray 5 times a day. I do agree with you that Quran do mentions 2 other times of prayers as separate notes. But Quran has never mentioned that one has to pray 5 times. But Quran does have mention of 3 times prayers in different places

I am not rejecting your reason and 5 times prayer does make sense. But for me 3 times prayers also make sense with reference to Quran. I have no issue in praying 5 times, which I do sometimes, but most of the time I combine them and pray 3 times.

For your clarification on Dua - The Dua you are talking about is combination of prayers and parts from quran, hadith and prayers. Almost all the ismailis pray Dua this is an adition to namaz (or salat). Only ismailis from indian subcontinent use to take this as replacement of Namaz because of the circumstances mentioned in my last post. Now it is changing and ismailis from indian subcontinent will also say namaz (or call it salat) and dua will be an add on for them as well.

All most all Shias and Sufis, and some Sunni sects believe that Muslims can take additional efforts to get closer to Allah. They can do this by reciting Dua, and do Dhikir.

Some Sunni sects beleive that 5 times namaz is enough and Muslims do not need any additional efforts.

You have your proofs, we have ours. I donot disagre with your proofs, I believe that Allah has made this difference on purpose. Otherwise there would not have been this many divisions. For me my path is right and for you yours.

I believe that Sunni path attracts you and you are not devil who is trying to take us away from siratul mustakim. This stand true for me and others who do not agree with you.



This is Allahs WILL.

May Allah forgive all of us if we are doing anything wrong unknowingly and may he guide us to the path of siratulmustakim.

Also for your last question Aliyullah mean Ali appointed by allah or a vicegerent sent by Allah. To understand this you have to understand Shia Islam.

Ameen.

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#32

Unread post by aqs » Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:15 am

salim wrote:Brother Incredible

Dai is a person who do dawah or help imam with his actives. There is always one Imam and under that imam there are many Dais.

After the death of Fatimid Imam Khalif Mustansir Billah two sons of Imam claimed themselves to be Imam. Those who followed Nizar as imam are know as Nizaris, one of the group that followed Musteali as Imam are know as Dawoodi Bohras.

Nizari Imams never went behind parda. There was a period in Nizari history when Imam was hidden from non-ismailis but in contact with ismailis. Nizari believe that Imam never goes in Parda or never goes to gaib. If there are two persons on this earth left, one will be imam.

In case of Dawoodi Bohras - few Imam's after Musteali came Imam Tayyeb, he went into parda and the head of all the dai - Dai-ul-Duat became the leader of the community. While the community prepars for the Imam to come Dai runs the community in place of Imam. So for Dawoodi Bohras the word Dai means much more than what Dai means for Nizaris or other shia sects.
Br. Salim,

can you elaborate what's Nizari's take on Mastoorin Imam.
and i will also like to know whether other fards like Zakat, Som, Hajj Jihad are performed by Nizari's or not, intent of this question is that i have come to know that Nizari's dont perform any Fard and give a explanation that they have a Haazar Imam and if you believe in one then one is pardoned of all the fards

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#33

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:56 am

Salim Bhai

Thankd

You still have not provided with translation of Agakhani Shahada. Are you avoided on purpose?

Is Namaaz offered at JK in Jamaat? why not?

Jumma Prayer is in Qur'an, Why not for Aga Khanis?

incredible
Posts: 1034
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:44 pm

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#34

Unread post by incredible » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:46 am

I visited your forum and found lots of comparison between hidu devtas and ahlul bayt....even one thread says fatema (as) is shakti devi...what is this all about?

are you people still hindu?


one guy is saying

"There are farmans of MSMS in regards to Ginans being the missing parts of the quran
If you do an analysis/study of ginans..eg. Anant Akhado..you will find corresponding verses in the Quran."

:shock:

incredible
Posts: 1034
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:44 pm

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#35

Unread post by incredible » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:33 am

@salim...

man after reading all this stuff about ur religion i am sure u guys have potential to turn a beliver to a non beliver...even few guys calling krishna as a lord...u guys where hindu and i think still a hindu is living inside you...u people really failed to accept islaam...agha khanism is most curropt form of islaam in world.sorry but it makes me sick :( :( :(

aftabm
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:01 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#36

Unread post by aftabm » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:51 am

Incredible, Salim, MuslimFirst,

May i request you to continue Ismaili vs non ismaili debates in ISLAM TODAY section.

incredible
Posts: 1034
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:44 pm

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#37

Unread post by incredible » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:55 am

aftabm wrote:Incredible, Salim, MuslimFirst,

May i request you to continue Ismaili vs non ismaili debates in ISLAM TODAY section.
actually this is a appropriate section...it shows how strongly syedna have maintain islamic values in dawoodi bohra compare to his counterpart ismaili agha khanis.

aftabm
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:01 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#38

Unread post by aftabm » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:10 pm

What Agakhan does is none of my concern, no offense intended. We are not here to discuss (nor am i interested in) or compare syedana vs any one else. No please, there is a section called " islam today" , please spare us "dim-witted less grey matter containing bohris.

Sajid Zafar
Posts: 184
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:01 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#39

Unread post by Sajid Zafar » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:15 pm

Stop this mud slinging business.

Tujeh parai kia pari hey to apni nebhair...

What Ismaili does in their Jamat Khana and what part of Islam they follow is none of anyone's business except of Ismaili community. What I know is that they are prosperous and piece loving community with dynamic leadership, who take care of his community like father (not just the lip service paid by our Seydna).

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#40

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:41 pm

Incredible, Salim, MuslimFirst,

May i request you to continue Ismaili vs non ismaili debates in ISLAM TODAY section.
I had enough of Agakhanis

I just asked Salim few question whe he appeared here.

I would ask salim to post translation of Agakhani Shahada.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#41

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:45 pm

dynamic leadership, who take care of his community like father (not just the lip service paid by our Seydna).
12.5 % helps. Pay it and do anything you want.

Go to Mukhi and have Chanta's done. It take cutting corners to be prosperous. Chatas help.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#42

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:44 pm

incredible wrote:
it shows how strongly syedna have maintain islamic values in dawoodi bohra..
what islamic values?? taking sajdas from bohras and encouraging them to sing sajda tujhe wajib hai? imposing all sorts of bogus taxes and fees on his followers so that he and his family can live a life of ayyashi at our expense? saying laanats on his fictitious dushmano to keep his followers in perpetual fear and brainwash them to conform? imposing a dress code and id cards, safai chitthis, etc to keep his followers in strict discipline, not allowing them to think or act freely, dictating to them who they are supposed to vote for, whom to boycott, whom to bow to, whom to curse and abuse??? are these islamic values???? is it an islamic value for him to go out after ashura and shoot wild animals for pleasure and sport?

is it islamic values to have himself called 'haqiqi kaaba' and 'natiqe quran'?? giving bogus and hollow titles of mulla and sheikh in exchange for hefty sums of money to persons of disrepute, goondas, immoral and unethical people of low character?

atleast the aga khan does sterling service to humanity with his billions donated to charity and the dozens of world class hospitals, higher institutes of learning, schools, islamic museums, free homes, and help for businesses to his followers and others. he teaches his community love, tolerance and unity, how to adjust and blend into the larger humanity, while our syedna teaches hatred and division, showers laanats on his dushmano, and makes his followers isolated and misfits in world society. he can apparently perform miracles at the drop of a hat, can see behind cement pillars and abdes across 7 oceans, but cannot see the poor in his community, or the tyranny of his amils and the arrogance and the loot of his pup zaadas.

islamic values, my foot!

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#43

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:11 pm

Although I do not subscribe to the Aga Khani schoold of thought but at the same time cannot overlook the fact that Aga Khan has done lots for the betterment of his community unlike Burhanuddin saab.

Aga Khan has established schools,colleges, hospitals wherein his followers get excellent subsidy unlike the bohra dai, the glaring example is saifee hospital where bohras have to pay thru their nose for their treatment.

Aga Khan controlled Development Credit Bank gives preference to agakhanis in their loan disbursals whereas the only well managed Bombay Mercantile Bank which was controlled by bohra professionals like Zain Rangoonwala and Huseini Doctor went bust and is now under RBI control with no bohras on its board. All thanks to Burhanudin saab's fatwa to bohras to close down their accounts and the excommunication of Rangoonwala as he had thwarted the zaadas plans of getting nominated on the board which would have spelled disaster for the professionally managed bank. It is ironical that the dai owned Leaders Press had obtained a substantial loan from this very bank years ago.

SBM
Posts: 6231
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#44

Unread post by SBM » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:29 pm

Beides Leaders Press, how about Asian Electronics and Bombay Paints?

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#45

Unread post by aqs » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:43 pm

@GM/Oma,

Brs. kindly present some evidence of the loan and Kothar's participation in a firm which dealt in interest.

SBM
Posts: 6231
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#46

Unread post by SBM » Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:10 pm

Br. Aqs
Some where on this forum, I have provided the day and year when a full page advertisment was published for Interest on Bond for Bombay Chemical and Paints and the address of Saifee Mahal was listed on the ad as one of the director's residence.

SBM
Posts: 6231
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#47

Unread post by SBM » Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:29 pm

Br. Aqs
here it is

[quote]by omabharti on Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:54 pm

Welcome Bensaheba
People on this forum do not usually abuse each other unless some one starts it. We have Aqs and Guy Sam still with us even though they are from the other side of divide but both of them have engaged themselves in very civilized debate defending their views and refuting points raised by progressives. At least both of them agreed that there is corruption at Jamaat level and with some of the Aamils but are still not ready to put "BUCK STOPS HERE" theory at the top level.
As for as your Dawat-e-Hadiyah USA, most of the top echelon of Dawat-e-Hadiyah is concerned,they contributed US $250,000 to George W Bush re-election campaign. Turab BS Zakiuddin and his family (four of them)contributed 10,000 and other top shaikhs and their family members were each asked to contribute 2500.00(maximum allowed by US Law) I have the list.( you can google under campaign contribution on internet)
We are being told not to take Riba or give Riba but if you can get copy of "TIMES OF INDIA, FRIDAY, DECEMBER 18, 1992"
on page 10, you can see full page advertisement of Bombay Paints Limited offering 15% fixed Deposit Scheme (RIBA by definition) and one of the director who is listed with his home address is Shri Y.A.Ezzuddin, Vice Chairman address of Saify Mahal,Powai Road, Bombay[
/quote].
So you see Bensaheba, it is 'DO WHAT WE TELL YOU, NOT WHAT WE DO" mentality on Kothar
In any case welcome on board and please do share with us of your dealings with Kothar and their related members.omabharti

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#48

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:23 pm

aqs wrote:@GM/Oma,

Brs. kindly present some evidence of the loan and Kothar's participation in a firm which dealt in interest.
Bro aqs,

As regards the Leaders Press at Mazgaon, Mumbai, I think Mr.Insaf can provide you with details because the loan was taken by kothar a few decades ago. Regarding Asian Electronics and Asian Dehydrates, companies launched by mola's sons, it is a fact that they ran into huge losses and their share prices had plunged on parity with other "penny stocks". Asian Electronics was ultimately sold to some gujarati industrialist and kothar's henchmen went to all the bohras houses who had shares in the company and forced them to surrender the same. The company had an excellent turnaround under the new management and the shares which were quoted as low as Rs.5 during the zaada's management went upto almost Rs.250/- in a very short span of time under the new management. This way the bohras who had huge quantity of shares lost in crores as they had to forcibly surrender them at throwaway prices.

As regards Leaders Press, I remember that kothar had taken loan from Bombay Mercantile Co-op Bank for buying offset printing machines and the very first copy which was printed was that of the photo of late Taher Saifuddin saab and the same was given as a gift to the senior members of the bank.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#49

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 pm

One more incident of kothar's high handedness was at the time of their purchase of Sandoz House at worli, Mumbai. Bohras had to cough up crores of rupees to fecilitate the purchase and if I remember correctly then there was a fixed "unit" of Rs.5000/- and then depending upon the financial capacity of individuals, a maximum number of "units" were thrust upon them. In return they got a bottle of "khaak-e-shifa" and the rent of the building was and still is pocketed by the zaadas.

You can visit Sandoz House which is now Novartis House at Dr.Annie Beasent Road, Worli which is a PRIME locality. You will find a board at the entrance which reads as "Dr.Syedna Taher Saifuddin Memorial Foundation". Recently, the most expensive flat ever to be sold in Mumbai was in a building just stones throw away from Novartis House, the flat went for a whooping Rs.One lac per sq feet. Now you can imagine the worth of this property which was purchased out of abde's hard earned money, the benefit of which is ZERO to them.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#50

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:35 am

bros. gm and omabharati,

now watch the kothari sycophant, syedna-worshipping ostrich with his head buried in the sand... :lol:

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#51

Unread post by aqs » Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:56 am

Shri Y.A.Ezzuddin, Vice Chairman address of Saify Mahal,Powai Road, Bombay
Oma Bhai
I dont have access to the said copy of TOI, if you or any one else has please scan and post it here.
i dont think any one except Qaid Joher Bs has a surname of Ezzuddin in Saifee Mahal, and besides address is also wrong because Saify Mahal is in Walkeshwar and not Powai, it might be some other DB whose house name coincides with Saifee Mahal

GM Bhai,

Do we have any thing in Print or Black and white which can be presented to others or we will have to go by your word on this

salim
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 4:01 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#52

Unread post by salim » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:22 am

Thank you friends for your help and support.

I think the topic should have been Nizari ismailis of india vs. bohras. As describes before nizari ismailis of india have developed a little different rituals. This was mainly done to save their lives from fanatics. One of this fanatics also killed one of the Dia of Dawoodi Bohras (Aurangazeb).

Now Aga khan is trying his best to change the rituals for Ismailis of indian sub-continent.

But remember unlike dawoodi bohras, who mostly from Indian sub-continent, only a minority of nizari ismailis are from indian subcontinent.
Last edited by salim on Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

salim
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 4:01 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#53

Unread post by salim » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:24 am

Since this is Syedna vs Aga khan. let's not indulge on mud sliding, as Quran says let's try to learn from one another -

Can Incredible, Aqs or others tell me - What Syedna did that made you feel happy or feel good or reminded you that he is from Allah?


Are there any initiatives that he took that helped you in your spiritual, economical, educational, cultural, social growth?

asif786
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:40 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#54

Unread post by asif786 » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:47 am

salim wrote:Thank you friends for your help and support.

I think the topic should have been Nizari ismailis of india vs. bohras. As describes before nizari ismailis of india have developed a little different rituals. This was mainly done to save their lives from fanatics. One of this fanatics also killed one of the Dia of Dawoodi Bohras (Aurangazeb).

Now Aga khan is trying his best to change the rituals for Ismailis of indian sub-continent.

But remember unlike dawoodi bohras, who mostly from Indian sub-continent, only a minority of nizari ismailis are from indian subcontinent.
Salim

What is the total population of Ismailies and where can you find the majority of Ismailies .

incredible
Posts: 1034
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:44 pm

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#55

Unread post by incredible » Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:40 am

salim wrote:Since this is Syedna vs Aga khan. let's not indulge on mud sliding, as Quran says let's try to learn from one another -

Can Incredible, Aqs or others tell me - What Syedna did that made you feel happy or feel good or reminded you that he is from Allah?


Are there any initiatives that he took that helped you in your spiritual, economical, educational, cultural, social growth?

I might not be happy with many recent activities carried out by kothar with or without permission of his holiness....but the way syedna have maintained fatimid tradition from birth to death and every corner of human life makes me proud.and i am happy with it,unformity is the best thing this community have provided to its follower.

incredible
Posts: 1034
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:44 pm

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#56

Unread post by incredible » Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:08 am

dont take it personally but it is so disopointing that a person calling him self hujjatullah and naib of rasul Muhammed (saw) does not obey any of his sunnah,and he have nullified each and every fard of islaam.

SBM
Posts: 6231
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#57

Unread post by SBM » Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:40 am

Br. Aqs
I think I do have a scan copy but I do not have access to paste it here. If administration can guide me I will be more than happy to oblige, at the same time I am sure if you go to public library or request the same from Times of India Archives, you can get it.

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#58

Unread post by Aarif » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:17 pm

only a minority of nizari ismailis are from indian subcontinent.
Salim bhai,

This is not true. Please read this article below:
http://www.genealogywise.com/forum/topi ... i-ismailis

On a positive note I really appreciate your attitude when it comes to covering up the deeds of your Imam and your community. In fact you remind me of that famous dialog in Sholay where Mausi tells Jai that "Sharaabi hein juwaari hein lekin tere muhse uske liye sirf taarifein hi nikalti hein". Now please don't tell me "kyaa karoon mausi meraa toh dil hi kuch aisaa hein" :wink:

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#59

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:52 pm

Aarif,

You mentioned one of the great moments in bollywood movie history and Amitabh's great talent. I remember when Mausi asks him about Veeru's khaandan and Amitabh says - "Khandaan ka pata chalte hi hum aapko ko khabar pahooncha denge". Masterpiece.

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: syedna vs agha khan

#60

Unread post by Aarif » Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:00 pm

Yep masterpiece :)