Progress of 'Progressive' Dawoodi Bohras

[aligns]

Assalam, I am a proud follower of Dawoodi Bohra religion (and all its Dais) and Maula(tus). I have recently started following this forum. Someone posted that shehzadas quoted this site as 'haram'. Well this is not completely true. This site has been quoted as misleading the people and quite aptly it is. Each and every post here critisizes the acts of Maula (tus) and shehzadaas, be it collecting money, be it the way ramazan or moharram is glorified, be it the way arzis are replied etc etc.

If you really want to know the answers and reasons behind these and other doings of Maula (tus), you must make yourself eligible for it. Start attending majlis, waiz and most imp "sabak", if you attend all this you will get to know atleast 99% of your answers, rest 1% is trust. Because for no reason you can expect a Dai or its Shehzadaas to give you explaination for each and every thing that they are doing. You can only see the results of their doings.

Coming to the money that is collected. Have you visited Taherabad (aka galiakot), Burhanpur, ujjain, mandvi, hasanphir etc in recent years. I bet you haven't. Because if you did, you would know that the money collected goes for upliftment of our society/sect, building new masjids, rozas, 3-4 star hotel like musafir-khanas, investing in new technologies and into the charity of our poor people in these areas. Gone are the days when noone knew whats happening behind the scenes and where the money they gave is going into. There are web-portals now that give detailed info about what Maula(tus) is doing each day, whether he is doing Waiz or laying foundation stone to a building (masjid, hospital, roza etc) or traveling. Sometimes this is either telecasted live during community gathering or recorded for later telecast to the community across the world so that people are aware of what progress we are making. So there arises no question of what is happening in our community and where the money is going. Today other community people recognise our community and that too with high respect since they haven't seen such religious bonding, religion following and tech advancement of any sect in this entire modern human era.

The manner in which the Dawoodi Bohra sect has progressed in last few years or may be in last couple of decades has been tremendous. No other religion or sect is so closely bounded, so technologically advanced.

Then it brings me to the question - What progress the separatists 'Progressive Dawoodi Bohras' (youth) have made during all this time (last few decades)? What have you done apart from critisizing the other side?

--------------------
NB - I am not critisizing your actions or views. I wanted to convey my point and thought this would be the right forum for it.

[SBM]

Align
Welcome on the board, it is heartening to know that more and more people from other side of the fold are visiting this forum and expressing their opinions, it is healthy.Can I ask you a simple question as per your quote
,

waiz and most imp "sabak"

Many of the reformists are not allowed to attend Sabak and many are not allowed to attend Waiz as they are not Sabil paying,e jamaat card carrying members so why donot you share with us what you learned in SABAKS

[Biradar]

Brother aligns,

You, as well as most bohras, conflate two things. First, you conflate material progress with truth and second, you conflate information with knowledge. Simply because the da'is is an ultra rich man does not mean what is says is the truth or that the organization he leads is on the path of righteousness. Just because the da'i's every move is photographed and fawned over by drooling bohra masses does not mean that bohras are knowledgeable about religion or their own history or philosophy.

In fact, it is just the opposite. By building good lodgings for pilgrims at various locations the administration hides the enormous amount of resources spent in up-keeping the luxurious lifestyle of the da'i and his extended family. Please tell us who foots the bills to maintain the rich and decadent lifestyle of the da'i's shehzadas, his brothers, brother's children, children's children's and so forth up to umpteen generations? Do any of them have a real job? They are spending the community money to live a life of enjoyment. Please contrast this with the lifestyle of Maulana Ali: he would use oil bought from his own money to light the lamp when doing his personal work. Also, please try and justify why every bohra should bend his back to the most minor minion of the da'i?

You talk about information, but information is not the same as knowledge. The administration has very cleverly fed the bohra masses with something they can consume quickly and enjoy, a steady stream of photos, videos and emotional clap-trap. Meanwhile, slowly, unknown to you, the religion itself is being changed and claims are being made that simply can not be reconciled with our history and culture. For example, now the da'i has become raab on this earth, his word is like KUN and he claims to know everything happening in every mumin's heart and mind. Please point out from which books written by the Fatimid or earlier da'is can these claims be supported.

You claim that people recognize us for "tech advancement of any sect in this entire modern human era". Really? Have you actually seen all of the "entire modern human era" to make this silly and ridiculous claim? One can certainly say that the present administration has used all available means, modern and ancient, to control the life of every bohra in unprecedented ways. Not only how to dress, how much facial hair to grow, but also what to think. This is not progress, but manipulation of the most extreme form.

Also, please remember that this is an open forum and people say what they want. Their views may not represent any official progressive views. You are welcome to debate and contribute, but keep in mind that the same freedom to express opinions is not to be found on any other bohra forum.

[mumin]

mr. aligns, in this past moharram,it was anounced that seventh night niaz would be from moula, but guess what, the local goonda committee was demading money for the niaz. also ,here in the u.s. there are atleast two towns that i know of where masjid project is going on for more than twelve years and the local amil does not even hesitate a bit in demanding that he needs $52000.00 from the each mumin to build a mosque. Where is the dai to build the dai's mosque? Every thing is done with the raza of the dai then why not the money part.

[aligns]

why donot you share with us what you learned in SABAKS

If I could, I would have definitely shared all sabaks I had with you. But I am not allowed to. And moreover as I said previously, you have to make yourself eligible for it. If you criticize Dai and his action in your every post and in every day of your life, then no sabak or lesson that can change your thinking or actions. And even if you get to know everything that you want to (99%), still 1% will be your trust in Dai and his followers.

the da'i's every move is photographed and fawned over by drooling bohra masses

The point I was trying to make is that technology has made it possible for people to see the life of their Dai, his each move and how he spent his each day (this was not possible during times of previous Dai's or Rasulullah (saw) )... and to question Dia's actions is just a matter of belief. If you believe in him all his actions will seem correct, but if you don't then you will never see or understand the hidden message.

One can certainly say that the present administration has used all available means, modern and ancient, to control the life of every bohra in unprecedented ways. Not only how to dress, how much facial hair to grow, but also what to think.

Is really the 'Present administration' responsible for it? The Dress (our religious wearing), facial hair and our thinking is all inspired by the life of Rasoolullah(saw). All Dai 's have just tried their best to convey Rasool's message and way-of-living to the masses. Maula (TUS) is again trying to do the same. If you are questioning dress, hair or thinking, saying that all this is extremism, then my friend you are questioning the way of living of Rasoolullah (saw) and saying that his way of dressing, hair and teachings were extreme.

but keep in mind that the same freedom to express opinions is not to be found on any other bohra forum

I completely agree with you that such flexibility is not offered in any other forum but think of it this way - religion is a thing to be 'followed' and not 'debated' or have 'opinion' about. Obviously people have different interpretations of the religion / religious books / religious sayings and you can debate on these interpretations. This is one reason why we have so many sects and subsects in Islam since people differ in their interpretations of Q'uran and/or religion as whole.

Have you actually seen all of the "entire modern human era" to make this silly and ridiculous claim?

In current context, I would say yes if I have seen the last 4-5 decades.

@mumin: I am obviously not aware of what's happening in each and every jamaat across the world. But you seem to misunderstood me. I said that money collected from us are / would be spent in upliftment of our sect 'like' building mosques for our community, etc. This doesn't mean that each and every mosque we have is built using this money. There are many examples where a single man/family/group has funded the entire construction of a mosque or roza. There are people among us who have capacity and they contribute generously in such activities. On the other hand, we also have many more who raises questions on each penny they contribute and want to know how each penny they contributed was spent. Don't you think this is way too difficult to answer if not impossible?

[Doctor]

Assalam,

V. salam

Because for no reason you can expect a Dai or its Shehzadaas to give you explaination for each and every thing that they are doing. You can only see the results of their doings.

The result of their doing = Kothar increasing their networth on expense of common mumineen + violation of Fatimi Dawat rules and regulations.

Coming to the money that is collected. Have you visited Taherabad (aka galiakot), Burhanpur, ujjain, mandvi, hasanphir etc in recent years. I bet you haven't. Because if you did, you would know that the money collected goes for upliftment of our society/sect, building new masjids, rozas, 3-4 star hotel like musafir-khanas, investing in new technologies and into the charity of our poor people in these areas. Gone are the days when noone knew whats happening behind the scenes and where the money they gave is going into.

In all above, who holds the title on those assets? It is either Bade Mulla Burhanuddin sahab or his sons and NOT the local jamat!!! Kothar is masters of Con art. Bade Mulla Burhanuddin sahab feeds perception to his followeres that all they donates is invested in making 3-5 stars musfirkhanas, mosques... and they too see that there are constructions in place (though no accounting/statement is given to donor). Result = Bade Mulla Burhanuddin sahib and Sons became richer as they solely hold the titles on those properties.

[like_minded]

religion is a thing to be 'followed' and not 'debated' or have 'opinion' about.

This is the root of all evils!! It means to quietly shut your mind and swallow all the garbage thrown at you.

[aligns]

This is the root of all evils!! It means to quietly shut your mind and swallow all the garbage thrown at you.

Yes, very true no doubt abt that.

And this is true for all religions. Hindu believe what Hindu leaders teaches them and Christians believe what their head teach them. If you think this as garbage then be it.

You may even question why allah chose Mohommad (saw) to be his prophet why not anyone else, why did he made prophet born in Mecca and not India or elsewhere, why Rasulullah (saw) told us to pray 5 times (or say n times) a day, and Is Allah keeping track of how many prayers I am offering everyday who is taking count of it, why do we bend-down stand-up in a particular fashion during namaaz, who can validate whether we are correct or not... and so on. The questions to not believe in a religion or its principles can be countless. If you think all this is garbage, then its your personal opinion.

[Doctor]

religion is a thing to be 'followed' and not 'debated' or have 'opinion' about.

I will completely agree with aligns.

However, the point to note is: who the preacher is - for certain aspects of religion? Is it person like Mola'e Raj who sacrificied his life and didn't accepted the gold/diamonds and threw them back to well or people like Bade Mulla Burhanuddin sahib who gladly accepts and horads gold, diamonds and precious stones!

[like_minded]

This is the root of all evils!! It means to quietly shut your mind and swallow all the garbage thrown at you.

Yes, very true no doubt abt that.

And this is true for all religions. Hindu believe what Hindu leaders teaches them and Christians believe what their head teach them. If you think this as garbage then be it.

You may even question why allah chose Mohommad (saw) to be his prophet why not anyone else, why did he made prophet born in Mecca and not India or elsewhere, why Rasulullah (saw) told us to pray 5 times (or say n times) a day, and Is Allah keeping track of how many prayers I am offering everyday who is taking count of it, why do we bend-down stand-up in a particular fashion during namaaz, who can validate whether we are correct or not... and so on. The questions to not believe in a religion or its principles can be countless. If you think all this is garbage, then its your personal opinion.

The irony is, We have never understood the true spirit of religion, mainly because the self-appointed religion-peddlers have managed to manipulate and project something which has no connection with reality obviously for their own benefit and not ours.

Today, religion is reduced to a ritual nonsense, thanks to the priests who have maintained an iron grip over the masses.

[profastian]

Today, religion is reduced to a ritual nonsense, thanks to the priests who have maintained an iron grip over the masses.

Exactly, thats what makes us unique. For us the rituals are just a side show (as they should be).
The crux of our faith is Walayat (as it should be) and it requires no rituals.

[SBM]

religion is a thing to be 'followed' and not 'debated' or have 'opinion' about.

Align
Here we are not discussing religion of ISLAM. we are debating a sect or (for lack of better word CULT) of Dawoodi Bohra(abdes/Orthos) and its hierarchy and that is debatable.
Remember if we can debate the succession of Prophet and rules by different Khalifas then then debating the operation and arrogance of Kothari Goons is very much valid

[Doctor]

Today, religion is reduced to a ritual nonsense, thanks to the priests who have maintained an iron grip over the masses.

Exactly, thats what makes us unique. For us the rituals are just a side show (as they should be).
The crux of our faith is Walayat (as it should be) and it requires no rituals.

Mola Ali (a), the speaking Quran, whose Valayat you are advocating never lied.

Remember the punishment for lies in Quran – Al Furqan:19

Bade Mull Burhanuddin sahab lied in court (refer to Year 1925, Chanda Bhai Galla Case).

Thus, first fix Bade Mulla Ji sins, make him follow Mola Ali (a). Otherwise your lip service of Valayat = you using valayat as veil to hide guilt of Bade Mulla Ji.

[Bigger]

Exactly, thats what makes us unique. For us the rituals are just a side show (as they should be).
The crux of our faith is Walayat (as it should be) and it requires no rituals.

Mola Ali (a), the speaking Quran, whose Valayat you are advocating never lied.

Remember the punishment for lies in Quran – Al Furqan:19

Bade Mull Burhanuddin sahab lied in court (refer to Year 1925, Chanda Bhai Galla Case).

Thus, first fix Bade Mulla Ji sins, make him follow Mola Ali (a). Otherwise your lip service of Valayat = you using valayat as veil to hide guilt of Bade Mulla Ji.

Unfortunately you are so skillfully brainwashed by a few antidawat elements, that you cannot simply see the divinity in the post of DAIZZAMAN.
However in 1925 , Maula(TUS) age was just 10 years, you mean to say at this age he appeared in court.

You are so much use to of neglecting truth and negative commenting on every move of MAULA(tus) that you close your eyes and lock ur heart from Hidayat of Allah.

[Doctor]

Exactly, thats what makes us unique. For us the rituals are just a side show (as they should be).
The crux of our faith is Walayat (as it should be) and it requires no rituals.

Unfortunately there is no support for it in Qur'an and Dunnah.

It is just concept which shia has interpreted as dact.

In reply to your point, please refer Quran - Al Mai'dah:55.

Mr. Muslim First, your point is out of context in relation to current discussion in this thread!

[Doctor]

Exactly, thats what makes us unique. For us the rituals are just a side show (as they should be).
The crux of our faith is Walayat (as it should be) and it requires no rituals.

Mola Ali (a), the speaking Quran, whose Valayat you are advocating never lied.

Remember the punishment for lies in Quran – Al Furqan:19

Bade Mull Burhanuddin sahab lied in court (refer to Year 1925, Chanda Bhai Galla Case).

Thus, first fix Bade Mulla Ji sins, make him follow Mola Ali (a). Otherwise your lip service of Valayat = you using valayat as veil to hide guilt of Bade Mulla Ji.

Correction: please read Bade Mulla Ji Taher Saifuddin Sahab and not Bade Mulla Ji Burhanuddin Sahab.

[Doctor]

...you cannot simply see the divinity in the post of DAIZZAMAN.

One can see the divinity in the post of Daizzaman but not in the Bade Mulla Ji Burhanuddin sahab.

[Doctor]

Assalam,

V. salam

Because for no reason you can expect a Dai or its Shehzadaas to give you explaination for each and every thing that they are doing. You can only see the results of their doings.

The result of their doing = Kothar increasing their networth on expense of common mumineen + violation of Fatimi Dawat rules and regulations.

Coming to the money that is collected. Have you visited Taherabad (aka galiakot), Burhanpur, ujjain, mandvi, hasanphir etc in recent years. I bet you haven't. Because if you did, you would know that the money collected goes for upliftment of our society/sect, building new masjids, rozas, 3-4 star hotel like musafir-khanas, investing in new technologies and into the charity of our poor people in these areas. Gone are the days when noone knew whats happening behind the scenes and where the money they gave is going into.

In all above, who holds the title on those assets? It is either Bade Mulla Burhanuddin sahab or his sons and NOT the local jamat!!! Kothar is masters of Con art. Bade Mulla Burhanuddin sahab feeds perception to his followeres that all they donates is invested in making 3-5 stars musfirkhanas, mosques... and they too see that there are constructions in place (though no accounting/statement is given to donor). Result = Bade Mulla Burhanuddin sahib and Sons became richer as they solely hold the titles on those properties.

aligns,

Your reply awaited.

[guy_sam2005]

...you cannot simply see the divinity in the post of DAIZZAMAN.

One can see the divinity in the post of Daizzaman but not in the Bade Mulla Ji Burhanuddin sahab.

It sums up that u cant see divinity even when its in front of u.........

[guy_sam2005]

religion is a thing to be 'followed' and not 'debated' or have 'opinion' about.

I will completely agree with aligns.

However, the point to note is: who the preacher is - for certain aspects of religion? Is it person like Mola'e Raj who sacrificied his life and didn't accepted the gold/diamonds and threw them back to well or people like Bade Mulla Burhanuddin sahib who gladly accepts and horads gold, diamonds and precious stones!

The zamaan of mulla.raaj(moulai raaj) was different from now....and wat he did he did it for dai-zamaan....in that case if u oppose dai-zamaan u are also opposing moulai raaj......that means if in this zamaan he comes at ur doorstep asking u to come back to deen of haq he is more likely to be thrown out by u guys..............

[Doctor]

One can see the divinity in the post of Daizzaman but not in the Bade Mulla Ji Burhanuddin sahab.

It sums up that u cant see divinity even when its in front of u.........

Guy-sam2005,

Lets analyze and learn if you are wise or ignorant on Fatimi Dawat wisdom like Bade Mulla Burhanuddin sahab who cannot deliver religious lecture from childhood till date without looking word for word from papers and when papers misses then commands his followers to beat chest and shout "Hussain", an act against explicit command of Molana Abdeli Saifuddin (r):

1. On Nabi Mohammed(s) mimber, after him, when Abu Bkr sat on it. One can see the divinity in the post (mimber) but not in the Abu Bkr.

2. After Mola Ali (a), the post of state head/caliph was for Imam Hasan (a) and not Mawiya (l). So, one can see the divinity in the post but not in the Mawiya (l).

3. Likewise for post of Dai Mutlaq i.e. divinity is in the post of Dai Mutlaq and you will see no divinity in Jafar, Suleman, Ali bin Ibrahim and Bada Mull Burhanuddin sahab.

Hence, contrary to your contention, per above, one can see divinity in the Fatimi Dawat post but not necessary in the person claiming to occupy the seat.

[Aarif]

religion is a thing to be 'followed' and not 'debated' or have 'opinion' about.

Going by your own statement do you think that Syedna is following the religion of Islam? Don't you think that "Sajda tujhe wazib hein" and other innovations like two rakat compulsory namaaz for him are Syedna's opinions? Syedna is suppose to follow the religion of Islam just like prophet(pbuh), Maulana Ali and all other muslims. When these great people did not incorporate any innovations in the religion to glorify themselves who gave Syedna the right to do so? Islam is strongly against human worship. If a religion is to be followed as mentioned by you than are these innovations justified?

[ghulam muhammed]

you cannot simply see the divinity in the post of DAIZZAMAN

What "Divinity" are you talking about ? Aha... probably the "noor" which is oozing out when you see him after his german makeover trips dressed in a spotless, starched white attire with a white cloth on the seat of his cadillac. If you dress up the handsome, blue eyed Raj kapoor in a spotless white dress with a flowing white beard and see him in a grand cadillac car with white upholstery, you will probably see more "noor" in him. By that yardstick bohras will never find "noor" on Hazrat Billal (r.a.) who was a black negro (nauzubillah) but who was the number one Aashique-e-Rasul (s.a.w.). No wonder one finds bohras leaning, crawling and falling at the feet of the fair and red zaadas and zaadis.

[Bigger]

you cannot simply see the divinity in the post of DAIZZAMAN

What "Divinity" are you talking about ? Aha... probably the "noor" which is oozing out when you see him after his german makeover trips dressed in a spotless, starched white attire with a white cloth on the seat of his cadillac. If you dress up the handsome, blue eyed Raj kapoor in a spotless white dress with a flowing white beard and see him in a grand cadillac car with white upholstery, you will probably see more "noor" in him. By that yardstick bohras will never find "noor" on Hazrat Billal (r.a.) who was a black negro (nauzubillah) but who was the number one Aashique-e-Rasul (s.a.w.). No wonder one finds bohras leaning, crawling and falling at the feet of the fair and red zaadas and zaadis.

This word "probably" is taking you no where. Your imagination is as false as ur belief, and you keep imagining bcos this became ur Vujud (identity).

However Here I'm pointing towards something spiritual, yes noor which is related to Al Aql and Al Ilm. Though you find RK more Nooraani, funny but if its you, i expected this explanation, poor fellow, pity on you.

[Doctor]

V. salam
The result of their doing = Kothar increasing their networth on expense of common mumineen + violation of Fatimi Dawat rules and regulations.
In all above, who holds the title on those assets? It is either Bade Mulla Burhanuddin sahab or his sons and NOT the local jamat!!! Kothar is masters of Con art. Bade Mulla Burhanuddin sahab feeds perception to his followeres that all they donates is invested in making 3-5 stars musfirkhanas, mosques... and they too see that there are constructions in place (though no accounting/statement is given to donor). Result = Bade Mulla Burhanuddin sahib and Sons became richer as they solely hold the titles on those properties.

aligns,

Your reply awaited.

Bade Mulla Taher Saifuddin sahab drank many public properties: Moriswalla guest house, a four storied building in Mumbai which was erected in 1924 AD by Karimji Jeewanji Moriswalla at a cost of Rs 2 lakhs for the convenience of visitors to Mumbai.

While returning from one of his visits to Sri Lanka in 1957 AD he attempted to smuggle diamonds through his brother, who hid them in his turban. But unfortunately this was discovered by the airport authorities in Colombo. The diamonds were confiscated and a fine of Rs 75,000 was imposed.

[aqs]

Bade Mulla Taher Saifuddin sahab drank many public properties: Moriswalla guest house, a four storied building in Mumbai which was erected in 1924 AD by Karimji Jeewanji Moriswalla at a cost of Rs 2 lakhs for the convenience of visitors to Mumbai.

Doctor,

Morris wala Musafirkhana was sold for a sum of 20 cr and a new building is purchased with the amount opp. Dongri post office which is 14 floor high with state of the art furniture and quite affordable rates, so a 4 storied dilapidated guest house crowded by Musafirkhana's rowdy footpath encroachers was better or a 14 story high new Building near to Raudat.

[incredible]

crores of rupees are invested to renovate raudat tahera....but belive me if some momeen is in need of couple of thousands rupees he has to run untill his life comes to his throat..tut tut tut.

Inshallah Allah will take all account.Ameen

[Doctor]

Bade Mulla Taher Saifuddin sahab drank many public properties: Moriswalla guest house, a four storied building in Mumbai which was erected in 1924 AD by Karimji Jeewanji Moriswalla at a cost of Rs 2 lakhs for the convenience of visitors to Mumbai.

Doctor,

Morris wala Musafirkhana was sold for a sum of 20 cr and a new building is purchased with the amount opp. Dongri post office which is 14 floor high with state of the art furniture and quite affordable rates, so a 4 storied dilapidated guest house crowded by Musafirkhana's rowdy footpath encroachers was better or a 14 story high new Building near to Raudat.

Who was the beneficiary of Rupees Twenty Crores?

Who holds the title on new musafir khana?

[Doctor]

While returning from one of his visits to Sri Lanka in 1957 AD he attempted to smuggle diamonds through his brother, who hid them in his turban. But unfortunately this was discovered by the airport authorities in Colombo. The diamonds were confiscated and a fine of Rs 75,000 was imposed.

aqs,

Mola & brother brought embarrassment and shame to the community in his greed for money!

[like_minded]

crores of rupees are invested to renovate raudat tahera....but belive me if some momeen is in need of couple of thousands rupees he has to run untill his life comes to his throat..tut tut tut.

Inshallah Allah will take all account.Ameen

Very true!!!