Are Dawoodi Bohra Muslims?

[Jamali]

To All,

Based on the recent posts by many members of the "Momeneen", it is very clear that they have started comparing God and Maula to be the SAME thing. This I find really disappointing as this questions their authenticity as Muslims also believing in Almighty Allah.

It is well known that some of the comments are being made by imbecile and childish individuals who have no sense of thought process but sadly there are few individuals within the community who despite their faith, have little sense to understand that such proclaimations are going extreme.

I would request any individual from those few to at least talk to these "children" to refrain from such utterances as this creates a very negative image of the Dawoodi Bohras including the progressives and reformists. I am proud to be a Dawoodi Bohra despite being a reformist or a progressive like any other sect (Ismaili, Itnashiri, Shia, Sunni) and let us not protray ourselves to truly not being muslims. I feel despite our little differences we are all Muslims in this world believing in One God - Allah and Muhammad as his messenger.

This post is written with a serious thought in mind.

[murtaza2152]

Jamali you say you are proud to be reformist dawoodi bohra but you are asgari or ahmadi or insafi bohra not Dawoodi ,bcause u do not blieve 52nd dai as Dail Mutlaq,

coming on my comment ,
i do not say Mubdi Subhanahu al haq is Moula tus naozobilla,
but noor of allah resides in him,
in this sense,, he is our guider, protector,spiritual father mother ,due to his shafa'at we will enter jannat....
Sayyedi Sadiq Ali Saheb in his nasihat writes,
"Jiware aa Burhanedin (Sayfedin) ne dekhiye che KHUDA dekhiye che hamari nazar ma"
Ahmed Ali Munshi writes,
"Tu aek bashar hai jante hai ham ke rab nahi,
par tujko ham KHUDA bi kahe to ajab nahi"


Only this much to say my mumineen bhaio ie dawoodi bohra (not asgari,insafi or ahmadi bohra) will understand it what i m trying to express.

[Jamali]

Note for all Mumineens
by murtaza2152 on Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:38 pm

Note for Gulams of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin tus


These Progressives are not Dawoodi Bohras as they do not believe our 52nd Dai as Dail mutlaq,
So i request all mumineens ie gulams of 52nd Dai, visting this forum to not take talks of this forum seriously and believe it,
as this are not dawoodi bohras but Ahmedi, Insafi or Asgari Bohras ,Which are our dushman and hate Aaqa Mola Dai e Amiril Mumineen as Aalimun Nahrir Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin tus.
So dont believe in anything they say ,as they are Munafiqs,
Only believe in Mola as he is our GOD on earh in Imam's satr.

Regards
Yours Wellwisher,
Murtaza

Note-ADMIN dont delete my this post ,because its its written to my fellow brothers as Nasihat.


Above is Murtaza's Post!!!

Only believe in Mola as he is our GOD on earh in Imam's satr.

This is no way constitutes Noor of Allah. Whenever you call someone "GOD" you are giving him a title that construes to mean just that. Now in this context, Dawoodi Bohras are having a GOD on earth and probably a God elsewhere (Doubtful considering the guider, protector, father and mother and 'Jaanat pass' are all on earth!) Any form of association to Almighty Allah is SHIRK in whatever form. So you and your kind need to identify who you truly believe to be GOD.

You are right in one thing though. Only "your kind" will understand what you are trying to saying cause for the rest of us and I speak on behalf of the rest of the Muslim world, that we are binded by the basic principles of Islam and these are ones which dont have the element of "More La" in them. Islam is all about Almighty Allah, The Holy Quran and its principles. I dont think Allah needs your "More La" to make decisions for him as to who will enter Jaanat or not.

Hypothetically speaking if a Dawoodi Bohra who is in the community commits an "unislamic act" which in essence results the deed of Jahanam (e.g adultery), then are you saying that just because he believes in 'More La' like you he will still go to Jaanat??? This answer will really be interesting from your perspective!

[Hussain_KSA]

Jamali

Murtuza is one of the million Dawoodi Bohras. He is writing as an individual. You can't blame whole community for deeds of one individual.

[Jamali]

Hussain KSA,

You are right. I shouldnt judge ones action against the whole community but neither do I see the rest of the community stepping in to correct him. This is what I find appauling. Is the silence from the 'sensible lot' of the community justifying his comments? Despite differences within a sect or a community, there are certain comments that are plain unacceptable. You cannot compare the title of GOD to anyone or anything as it only belongs to ALLAH. Had the community declared themselves as not being muslims, then it wouldnt matter much but when you do say that you are Muslims and then go ahead and make such nonsensical comments then I think you are crossing the line and any true Muslim would find that disgusting!!!

Its shameful associating myself with a Bohra and calling a Bohra a muslim brother when you have such characters making imbecile and stupid comments. Its better not to comment on anything if you either dont have the knowledge or the brain to even know what you are saying, especially if its against the very principles that you are supposed to follow!!!

[Al Zulfiqar]

jamali,

a simple reply to your question.

NO. dawoodi bohras of today who follow present syedna and his practices are no longer muslims. their kufr has taken them far away from islam.

[Jamali]

Yep...They have proved it. It shows even in their current mind frames now!

[murtaza2152]

I have used my claim using this lines,

Sayyedi Sadiq Ali Saheb in his
nasihat writes,
"Jiware aa Burhanedin (Sayfedin) ne dekhiye che
KHUDA dekhiye che hamari
nazar ma"
Ahmed Ali Munshi writes,
"Tu aek bashar hai jante hai
ham ke rab nahi, par tujko ham KHUDA bi kahe
to ajab nahi"


Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin tus is Allahs Dai and noor of allah resides in him.In this sense he is our GOD on earth.

[aqs]

Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin tus is Allahs Dai and noor of allah resides in him.In this sense he is our GOD on earth.

Br. Murtaza,
Allah's noor Resides in Imam and its manifested in dai due to Daur us Satr but in stricter term of Tauheed we cant say that Dai is God, he is a way to Allah. Leave it at that. Its a lengthy topic where you will not be able to write what you want to so its better if we stick to the oneness of God i.e La illaha Ilallah and not get into Ismaili metaphors conferred on Imam.

[ozmujaheed]

The day we remove the photos of sayedna from all religious places and replace it with the words Allah we can commit ourselves to the the original Islam

It was so inspiring when I saw Egyptian politicians remove mubaraks photo in the parliament and replace with a large frame of Allah Arabic word

[labbaikyaHussain]

The day we remove the photos of sayedna from all religious places and replace it with the words Allah we can commit ourselves to the the original Islam

It was so inspiring when I saw Egyptian politicians remove mubaraks photo in the parliament and replace with a large frame of Allah Arabic word

well iran revolution brought up imam khomeni pics all over...so well u cant predict any thing.

[ghulam muhammed]

Bro Jamali,

The subject itself is inconsequential, day in and day out dont you see bohras uttering... "Hamein to bohra chhe, olo to musalman chhe". They admit it in their daily life that they are NOT MUSLIMS.

[progpigs]

@ghulam muhammed

baatein tou bari bari lekin aqal choti ke choti! (if u haf aqal thn ans this)

Whats the difference between MUMIN and MUSLIM/MUSALMAN??
Hint: If you blv in Syedna Qutbuddin as Shaheed.. thn ans

now every 1 will see that tere mein aqal b hai ya sirf zaban se bakwaas nikalti hai

[Humsafar]

It is reformists contention that the abde bohras have been straying away from the Fatemi bohra doctrine. The evidence is not only well documented but is also present in their actions and behaviour in daily life. They have always had a hard time defending themselves as muslims/mumins. In recent weeks though we've seen an upsurge of abde activity on this Board. Some of them have got hold of this bone about the "46th" dai and chewing it for all its worth. And in their eagerness to discredit reformists they have truly revealed their mindset - not just of low culture but also as to how brainwashed they are. Not that we needed proof of either of these qualities but they keep giving it unasked.

So, their recent utterances only further corroborate that adbe bohras are not muslims/mumins but a cult that has a vague connection to Islam:

1) murtaza2152: Only believe in Mola as he is our GOD on earh in Imam's satr.
2) Profastian: in effect says that the Dai is superior to the Quran. Here is his quote: "As the Haq na sahab is present at all times, all the facts, predictions and religious doctrine can be covered. Quran on the other hand does not cover all facts, does not predict every happening and does not cover all religious knowledge (without tawil)."
3) murtaza2152: Sajada is wajib to Nabi ,Vasi,Imam and Dai,
4) All of them make the absurd claim that the Dai is infallible.

Superior to the Quran, God on earth. What is going on here? Any (muslim) outsider looking in will declare this bunch as heretics. I admit that murtaza is a bit of a cuckoo and no one should take him seriously. But I just want to point out that is not one stray individual we are talking about - it's the mindset, the brainwashed community that has lost its capacity to think.

[Al Zulfiqar]

humsafar,

not only is the kufr of the jaahils shocking and blasphemous, even the so-called prim and proper aqs, who tries very hard to present the face of reasoned argument under the guise of shirk and hypocrisy, is seen here propitiating his fellow abde. check his language here:

"Br. Murtaza,
Allah's noor Resides in Imam and its manifested in dai due to Daur us Satr but in stricter term of Tauheed we cant say that Dai is God, he is a way to Allah. Leave it at that. Its a lengthy topic where you will not be able to write what you want to so its better if we stick to the oneness of God i.e La illaha Ilallah and not get into Ismaili metaphors conferred on Imam."

see what i mean? an obvious attempt to silence his fellow abde in a conspiratorial manner, as if to say, keep quiet man, we will not be able to convince these ignorants about our dai being god on earth, its better if in public we hide our shirk, blah blah blah etc. one coward, but a discreet and more cunning coward, advising the immature and foolish coward to shut up and avoid embarrasment in front of the entire muslim ummah!!!

[ghulam muhammed]

What is a more better and appropriate place to prove that bohras are not muslims other then the Holy Kaaba ? During Haj when the entire ummah prays together as an act of solidarity and oneness, these non-muslims pray a separate namaz and their eyes are glued to their leader and they perform the arkans by seeing and following him. Even at this holiest place on earth, they dont think twice before creating an act of fitnah and division although this is done in an albeit discreet fashion as otherwise they are sure of being given a kick on their back which will land them in saifee mahal with no hopes of ever returning back.

[porus]

Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin tus is Allahs Dai and noor of allah resides in him.In this sense he is our GOD on earth.

Br. Murtaza,
Allah's noor Resides in Imam and its manifested in dai due to Daur us Satr but in stricter term of Tauheed we cant say that Dai is God, he is a way to Allah. Leave it at that. Its a lengthy topic where you will not be able to write what you want to so its better if we stick to the oneness of God i.e La illaha Ilallah and not get into Ismaili metaphors conferred on Imam.

I would have preferred if aqs had strongly repudiated murtaza2152's assertion and had categorically stated that any suggestion that Imam/Dai has any qualities which other humans do not possess amounts to ascribing Allah's privileged domain to a mere mortal and that this would constitute shirk.

Instead aqs skirts around the issue and implies that there may be something in what murtaza2152 is saying. My suspicion is that murtaza2152 has, inadvertently, revealed the teaching of sabak to enhance the cult of the Dai-worship.

Quran declares that Allah creates ex-nihilo but at the same time suggests that He 'breathed' His spirit/light into Jesus. Thus there is a seeming contradiction between Allah being absolutely transcendent and allowing one of His qualities to be in His creation. Medieval Ismaili philosophers looked to non-Muslim philosophies to resolve this contradiction. They found a tool in the so-called Neoplatonism. This was that Allah is the Originator (al-Mubdi, one of His 99 names) and His essence flows out through emanation (mab'ath) in a series of creations. Thus Allah is the point of origin (munba'ith) and creates in a series of stages consisting of pure intelligence (aql awwal) to lesser material with varying levels of intelligence and matter.

Ismaili philosophers also took the Quranic ayat (inna ilayhi raji'oon) to state that lesser intelligences desire to possess the qualities of higher intelligences. This can be achieved through total submission to the higher ups in the hierarchy.

Thus, the higher intellects were associated with Prophets and Imams to which unquestioning obedience was due. Bohras have now included Dai in this hierarchy. You would not find any Dai included in this metaphysics of the Fatimid scholars.

The Neoplatonist scheme was given Ismaili flavor by al-Sijistani and further developed by al-Kirmani.

Qadi Numan transformed this metaphysics into prescriptions for conduct for Ismailies/Bohras while in presence of Imam in his book Kiab al-Himma, virtually deifying the Imam. Deification of Dai has followed in recent times because in Bohra religion there is currently no difference between Imam and Dai.

Ismaili metaphysics is interesting historical curiosity. Neoplatonism is not. But the fact that it is still being taught to Bohras as 'The Truth' serves to inculcate servitude to mere mortals by equating them with deity. That is the reason for secrecy. A Muslim would not find this acceptable.

I would add that the majority of the Shia, the twelvers, reject Ismaili philosophy altogether.

[ghulam muhammed]

Syedna Ahmad bin Muhammad also draws our attention to one more important aspect: a Da'i who attributes to himself the attributes of God, he is guilty of shirk and is ignorant of tawhid I.e. belief in unity of God. Such a person cannot be fit to be Da'i. We know from our own experience that the preceding and the present Da'is (ie. 51st and 52nd) attributed themselves with attributes of Allah like Qadi al Hajat etc. and make their followers perform sajda-e-ubudiyat before them which is open shirk and hence they cannot be fit to be Da'i as per the Risalah of Syedna Ahmad bin Muhammad Nishapuri.

Further on it is said in the Risalah that one who is incapable of bringing up his followers in the knowledge of theology and knowledge of Allah (ulum-o-maarif) cannot claim to be Da'i. Needless to say, the present hierarchy of Fatimi D'awah calling itself the Kothar is totally unconcerned with such knowledge. It is wallowing in luxury and is preoccupied with accumulation of wealth and inculcating blind belief. Such people can hardly remotely qualify for the august office of Da'i who is summoner to the way of Allah his Prophet and his family (ahl al-bayt).

According to the Risalah under discussion, a Da'i must be properly equipped with three types of siyasat: siyasat-e-khassa, siysat-e-hamma and siyasat-e-amma.

Siyasat-e-khassa is control of one's self. One should abide by all the shariah injunctions, practice what is good and keep away from what is forbidden. One should refrain from evil and should imbibe all that Allah attributes to m'umin in the Qur'an. In fact a Da'i has to be much more than a m'umin as he is to lead all of them along the straight path.

Siyasat-e-hamma is the control over one's own household, one's staff and servants. A Da'i has to see that his staff is properly trained in all the good qualities, is cultured and refined in every way. It should have abiding interest in and knowledge should keep away from lowly things and turpitude of character. It should be exemplary in its behaviour towards others.

The messenger of Allah has also said that one who trains people of his household properly will go to jannah along with them. Thus it behoves a Da'i that he should train people from his household and his staff properly and cultivate interest in knowledge and refine their behaviour. Again we know from our experience how the members of the Kothar behaves with us and how knowledgeable and refined they are. In fact, they are rude and violent towards the m'uminin. Thus ultimately it reflects on the Da'i and his abilities.

Siyasat-e-amma pertains to control of common people. One who is successful in this type of siyasat takes care of common peoples' requirements, their material and spiritual well-being. A successful Da'i should give attention towards cultivating the common people, making them happy and fulfilling their economic needs and refining them spiritually. He should prevent them from what is forbidden by the shariah and induce them to acquire more and more spiritual merits.

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/index.php?mac ... eturnid=97

[anajmi]

Quran declares that Allah creates ex-nihilo but at the same time suggests that He 'breathed' His spirit/light into Jesus. Thus there is a seeming contradiction between Allah being absolutely transcendent and allowing one of His qualities to be in His creation.

Can you tell me where the Quran declares that Allah creates ex-nihilo?

Also, does the Quran declare that Allah can only create something out of nothing and it is not possible for Allah to create something out of something? Does the Quran put such limitations on Allah or have these being put by humans with their own limited understanding capabilities?

Do you seriously think the Dai and his cronies put all this thought into the process before declaring him God on earth? They saw people were ready to bow down and they made it mandatory!!

[whyrangoonwala]

It is sad that the munafikeen on this website don't realise their lack of fundamental arguments, knowledge of metaphysical, ontological and theological theories that make up our beautiful deen and, sadly, don't realise their limitations - the true test of human intelligence. They seem to have fallen for the same trap as atheists have - the fear of feeling stupid if they are unable to understand something or don't know anything. Psychologists from the time of Freud and Jung to modern day 'vulnerability' specialists like Dr Brene Brown (check out her TED talk on the power of vulnerability) have strongly related the lack of vulnerability to fear, shame, a dangerous desire for certainty in anything and, most importantly, self-doubt and denial. It's not just this post but this entire website's origin that suffers from psychological disorders such as low self-esteem, hypomania (magnified view of self) and, possibly, narcissism (highlighted by most neuro psychologists as a result of deep insecurities and fear about oneself).

It's funny they call themselves non-conformists and are proud to be. When Mohammed Rasul Allah SA was, and is perhaps, the biggest non-conformist of all times. He was non-conformist to the ridicule of intellect by atheism and polytheism that society has built up for thousands of years to avoid themselves from facing reality - the truth of creation and the maqaam of Ambiya, Imams and Dais. Mumineen, don't be angry with them. Pity them for they lack belief. Self-belief. They are in need of help, of reason, not anger. Think of them as handicapped, for how can one be angry with someone who is denial of self? Their sense of self is so small that they think that if they are not explained everything, they are being treated as unimportant (I'm laughing off my seat right now!).

Now, to fundamentally de-construct and logically answer this ridiculous question (Aqa Moula TUS aap yaari dejo). The Greek philosophers from Hippocrates to Aristotle (Aristatalis) and the greates polymath of the Islamic Golden Age, Avicenna (Hakim Bu Ali Sina) and Buzasuf (whom the world knows as Buddha) who are all our Ambiya and Dais and Hudood Kiraam (I'm sure these nincompoops who are in denial didn't know this) have written i their books (recommended reading - Aristotle's Book of Metaphysics Part 1, Plato's Theory of Forms, Avicenna's Kitab Al Shifa or The Book of Healing) the idea of the states of being, i.e., there are multiple levels of states of Being with Allah or God the true, one, ultimate State of Being. Aristotle calls the spiritual reality and the 10 Aqls there (nous is Greek for Aql or the basis for existence) the Unmoved Movers of which the First Cause (Aqle Awwal) was imparted movement by Allah. Plato has clearly written that there is a world where everything is deathless, everlasting, perfect and that world is beyond human understanding. The physical world is but a mere illusion and replica of that world. That is the definition of Zahir and Baatin.

Aristotle further writes that the celestial spheres were then imparted movement by the Unmoved Mover (upon which Avicenna brilliantly elaborates later saying that is just the 10th level or the 10th Mover - whom our Aqa Moula TUS and Hudood Kiraam in their ilm have defined as Aashir - the creator of this physical world. The Hindus call Him Eeshwar). So much in awe are the celestial spheres of Beings in this perfect world that they emulate them in the most perfect physical motion possible - circular movement. That's why the planets move incessantly.

Now, what do the planets move around? According to science, the sun in every solar system and galaxy, right? So, if each planet is a representation of a n incredible level of knowledge and intellect that is beyond human understanding in the spiritual world, what is the sun? The ultimate source of life - the Imam. Where does the moon derive its light from? The sun. So what does that make the moon? The Dai. Day and night are not just because there needed to be light and day. You ignorant people, it is a treatise on the story of creation, of good and sin, of self-awareness and denial. In this andheri raat of satar, it is the moon or our beloved Dai that shows the way. So, he is not some human, he is a gift from the spiritual world and is perfect, a being close to Aashir and the Messenger of God for our times. We were in that state of Being too. But we sinned. How? We denied. Exactly what you're doing even today. Now, to go back, what do you need to prove? Acceptance. Of what? that Allah is one. But with so many humans around, how do you know who knows who Allah is? That's why you can have only one, and only one Messenger at a time. But at all times, as is written in our bayaan, there will be a Moula on this planet. To guide the faithful. So, what does that make him - the one in the true and only state of being, doesn't it? So, doesn't that make him a version of Aashir? Doesn't that make him, contextually, next to God, or God? And then, how insignificant does that make us? Do you know that even your little intellect is because there is Moula? but you won't accept insignificance because your sense of self is too small. You think you're stupid if you don't have the answers. At least try and understand that it is humanly impossible. Otherwise, anyone would be God. And Moula is not human. That is just form.

If you munafikeen attended va'az, you would know the zikar of Ali beheading the Nuseri several times and bringing him back to life. The Nuseri, like you, couldn't understand what was going on and kept saying that Ali was God. And Ali kept saying No. But he behaved like God - gave life and took life. That is a huge metaphysical argument. But alas, you won't understand. None of us will. But we must believe. All the answers will come in the afterlife. You must be patient. But how can you be? You're so much in denial.

And where did all this ilm come from? How do we believers know so much? Because we read, we believe, we love. We love our Dai and always will. And, most importantly, we know so much because our Dai teaches us all this. We go to sabaqs and va'az talaqqi that he has so mercifully arranged for us. Look at the world, look at the mushrik who give form to God. Look how scared they are of imagination, intuition and the power of intellect. and look at our deen, our Dai and his ilm. He is taking us back to the world of perfection, of his ilm. And yet you question?

This post is not to explain things to you. You are too insignificant to matter. So am I. This post is to tell the mumineen who may visit this site and read your sand castles built on denial that don't get swayed. This collection of ignorance has no knowledge, no intellect. In fact, it is a mental asylum without knowing it is one. As Gandhi said, "Whatever you do will be very insignificant, but you must do it." Therefore, I write, as khidmat to my Moula and hope that he forgives all our gunaahs.

Btw, since you seem to "know" (its an abuse when written here) so much about Ahmed Ali Munshi, here's a couplet that should shut you up about the power and extent of our deen - "Tujhse gar padhe koi sabaq chaalees, toh woh hovey ikkis. Faiz-e-taleem se teri ho Arastatalis, balki kuch usse bhi zyada".

One last thing, please stop calling yourself progressive. Fear can only be regressive and destructive. And challenging your Dai and deen without fundamental syllogistic, ontological, theological arguments for the sake of democracy and social approval is a poor reflection of yourself, what you think of yourself. Get your identity issues sorted out first.


As sajadat as shukr in Hazrat Imamiyah
Abde Syedna, adna ghulam
Yousuf Rangoonwala

[anajmi]

So does that mean that the Dai is ready to give accounts of how he spends the zakat that he collects from the people? And does it mean that he will stop torturing people for non-ability to make extortion payments?

And Ali kept saying No. But he behaved like God - gave life and took life.

After all those 10 Aqls is this the best you can come up with? Another example of why you people are mushriks and idol worshippers? All you need is one aql to read and understand the Quran, but unfortunately, your Dai has taken even that from you in salaam!!

[SBM]

whyrangonwala

This post is not to explain things to you. You are too insignificant to matter. So am I. This post is to tell the mumineen who may visit this site and read your sand castles built on denial that don't get swayed

Couple of intresting observations
1-This post is not to explain things to you; BUT YOU STILL DID
2-You are too insignificant to matter: BUT YOU STILL POSTED A LONG THESIS TO JUSTIFY YOUR SLAVERY
3- This post is to tell Mumineen; SO FINALLY AN ADMISSION FROM A DIE HARD ABDE THAT THIS FORUM IS REACHING THE ABDES AND KOTHAR IS
MONITORING AND KEEP ON SENDING THEIR PR SPIN MASTERS LIKE ADAM-EXAMINER-PROGRICIDE-PROFSTIAN AND NOW WHYRANGONWALA
THREE CHEERS TO THIS FORUM FOR A JOB WELL DONE CONGRATULATION TO ADMIN OF FINALLY GETTING AN ADMISSION FROM A DIE HARD ABDE WITH REAL ID THAT MUMINEENS ARE VISTING THIS SITE..HURRAY.HURRAY..

[abde53]

sbm bhai
i am visiting this site because i can not visit malumaat and zenifosys and i do not want to put my ejmaat and id to sign in, i am little scared.
i donot like the way you people insult our Shafiq Baw TUS and Syedi wa Maulai Muffadal BS TUS but i ignore you and pray that with wasila of panjatan pak and dua mubarak of our moula TUS and his mansoos TUS you may get to right path one day

[sixfeetunder]

@ whyrangoonwala

Someone with intelligence takes the time to understand advanced metaphysical, ontological, syllogistic and theological theories. There is something there to understand. But if you take the time to understand and justify to yourself, the present corruption and extortion in the name of religion, you will find a clever con game perpetrated by a sophisticated gang of public relations experts that figured out a great tactic to make millions.

The underlying philosophy is totally without merit, and amounts to nothing more than a misuse of language, which is sufficiently complex as to be usable in the wrong hands to justify nearly anything. If you hear their discussions of what makes the Dai and the present system great, you discover an enigma wrapped in a paradox and embedded in a quandary. With looping cadences of illogical chaotic thought, usually vocalized by individuals with flowery credentials next to their name, the average listeners, who lack self-confidence in their understanding of religion and are intimidated by their inability to understand, usually meekly back away. Or they protect themselves by proclaiming that they do fully understand, so that they too may feel part of the anointed. The effect of "prestige suggestion" could never be seen more clearly. Many of us here have said it countless times before, but apparently it needs to be said yet again.

THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES!

[Humsafar]

You Rangoonwala sir are a pedantic, pompous fool. Over the years we have seen many justifications for this decadent Dawat and its corrupt leaders, but never has anyone employed so much erudition to prove so little. Wow, simply wow. What a waste of an education. It seems that you’ve read a lot and understood little. Just curious, were you with other abdes – Adam and gang - at the Haqiqi Yoga boot camp? Or maybe you were in the advanced course where they teach you how to wrap bullshit in high-falutin language and esoteric nonsense.
Like one of those smart-ass students, you are eager to show off your knowledge, and came here and regurgitated everything you learned – from psychology to philosophy to history to cosmology, and quoted Plato and Gandhi and everyone else in between. And you put yourself through all this intellectual hoops just to prove that the Dai is a quasi God and the moon in the dark night of satr?
Looks like you’re in a place deep down in the hades where the light from the Sun (oops the Imam) never reaches you. If it did you would know that all knowledge, concepts, philosophies ever produced are mere product of the human mind. And the human mind – no matter how brilliant – can’t even being to approach the Divine or the Reality. Reality is beyond the mind and beyond its constructs of time, space and thought. As such Reality is beyond description. Its descriptions are true only to the extent you’re willing to believe in them.
The Ismaili cosmogony that you flaunt here is only one more attempt at explaining the world. And no matter how much Neoplatonic nonsense you dress it up with, it still ultimately amounts to nonsense. It is ridiculous to reduce the mystery of life and creation to a long-winded story of 10 intellects. In your case this attempt is all the more tragic because you employ the sublime in the service of the ridiculous. And do you think the average abde, brow-beaten and frightened, lining up to pay his wajebaat, ready to fall at the feet of quasi-god and his litter ever cares about your philosophical claptrap? For all practical purposes, he considers himself as a member of a private club (cult) where he must pay up to enjoy the facilities. He may have faith in Mola, and his faith is more genuine and basic than yours. At least he does not feel the need underpin his faith with heavy-footed philosophical crap. My sympathies any day are with a simple abde than an over-educated dork like you.

[ghulam muhammed]

I found this post on another thread :-

Imam and his family's significance derives from Shia doctrine regarding Imamat. Specifically, Imam must be from the progeny of Imam Husain. Imam Husain's family are referred to Ahl-e-bayt in relation to events of Karbala. This designation has survived to indicate families of all subsequent Imams although it is strictly incorrect according to Quran.

The better term to describe Imams and their families is 'Aal-e-Muhammad'. That is the term Imam Jafar al-Sadiq has used to refer exclusively to Imams according to Daaim al-Islam. That is confirmed by Sayedna's constant reference to himself as 'Mamluk -e-aal-e-Muhammad' meaning 'Servant of Imams'.

There is no parallel significance, at least in dogma, to a Dai al-Mutlaq and his family. However, as we shall see, dogma is being revised to give the the families of the last two Dais a significance equivalent to that given to Imam's families. Thus, increasingly, there is a mention of Bayt-e-Zaini and Qasr-e-Aali in the same breath as Ahl-e-bayt.

Hurrat al-Malika was daughter-in-law of Ali al-Sulayhi, a ruler of Yemen appointed by Imam Mustansir. She became the ruler of Yemen after the death of Ali al-Sulayhi. Neither were related to Imams but they were very loyal to Imamat.

Hurrat al-Malika appointed Dhuaib bin Musa as the first Dai al-Mutlaq when it became clear that the rule of Imam Aamir and his designated heir, Imam al-Tayyib had come to an end. Dhuaib bin Musa was no relation to Imam or Hurrat al-Mulaika.

Dhuaib bin Musa was followed by 3 Dais who were father, son and grandson. They were Ibrahim al-Hamidi, Hatim bin Ibrahim and Ali Shamshuddin. This was the first family of Dais.

The 5th Dai was Ali bin Waleed. The next 18 Dais, including the 5th, were from the family of Ali bin Waleed. This can be considered the second family of Dais.

This brings us to the 24th Dai, Yusuf Najmuddin. He was the first Dai of India following the shift of Daawat from Yemen to India. From then on, Dais came from different families until the 45th Dai, Tayyib Zainuddin.

All the Dais since then, with the exception of 46th, who was son-in-law of 45th, are from the family of the 45th Dai, Tayyib Zainuddin, the third and final family of Dais. These Dais, especially 51st and 52nd, have elevated themselves to almost divine status. After Tayyib Zainuddin, they call themselves Bayt-e-Zaini. (Because of a large number in Bayt-e-Zaini, 51st Dai distinguished his family by a different name, Qasr-e-Aali.)

So none of the Dais and their families are from ahl-e-bayt or from progeny of Hurrat al-Malika

This is a shrewd political attempt to revise dogma to prepare Bohras to accept 'bayt-e-zaini/qasr-e-aali' as a feature of divine providence. This will allow the family to retain absolute power over faith and wealth of Bohras. And you can bet that any Imam, if there is one, initiating his zuhoor will be vehemently resisted and will have his work cut out for him by the third family.

[porus]

...claptrap...

What an idiot!

In Haqiqi Yoga Boot Camp, this new graduate learned that Imam is the Sun and Dai is the Moon! Oh, wow! Not even a pretense that it might just be a metaphor!

If that is the case, it appears that we have been in Total Lunar Eclipse of the Sun for a thousand years, seeing that Imam has decided to eclipse himself for that period. As for Sun's light, it is nowhere to be seen. You might barely discern the dark outline of the Moon. We can conclude that 'not so bright' moon outshines the Sun!

A vulgar name-dropper!!

[truebohra]

Are Dawoodi Bohra Muslims?
Was it not the same question raised by Aurangzeb (l.a) again Sayedna Qutubuddin Shaheed (r.a) by calling him rafzi (nauzubillah)

[mnoorani]

....."Chehraa si hame che mumin ,
libaas se hame mughal,
Aqa Mola ne Khuda maane ,
pan public ma hame muslim.".............

[mnoorani]

....."Chehraa si hame che mumin ,
libaas se hame mughal,
Aqa Mola ne Khuda maane ,
pan public ma hame muslim.".............