Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
labbaikyaHussain
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#61

Unread post by labbaikyaHussain » Thu May 26, 2011 7:44 am

yusuftopiwala wrote:1. Our total population is about 200 followers.
2. We are based out at Nagpur

thankyou for all information,200 people it means this sect is almost extinct.

stranger
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#62

Unread post by stranger » Thu May 26, 2011 7:47 am

yusuftopiwala wrote:1. Our total population is about 200 followers.
2. We are based out at Nagpur
If m not wrong then u r known as Nagpuri Bohra also..Rite ?
So you people get split from the mainstream on the issue of rightful successor of 46th da'i..
but why named as 48'ers sect ?

labbaikyaHussain
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#63

Unread post by labbaikyaHussain » Thu May 26, 2011 7:51 am

More about Atba-e-Malak or Atba-e-Malak Vakil

The Atba-e-Malak is a sect of Dawoodi Boharas and according to the religious beliefs and tenets of the Dawoodi Bohras, there is cycle of 60,000 years, comprising of 3000 years being the period of Fatrat (i.e. lethargy preceding the period of Satar), the next 7000 years being the period of “Daur-us-Satar” (i.e. period of Covering or Secrecy at the end of which Maulana Qayem would appear) and the next period of 50,000 years of “Daur-us-Kashf” (i.e. the Age of Light). The Dawoodi Bohras believe in their religious texts, the Quran, the Sahifa, the Nasihat and all religious and historical manuscripts written and accepted in the time of our Imams and the Dai-ul-Mutlaqs. It is the belief of the Dawoodi Bohras that there is at all times a Command of God to carry on his Spiritual Mission on earth called “AMAR” and which “Amar” is transmitted from one to another by appointment which is termed “Nuss”, and that person to whom the “Amar” is transmitted by Nuss, alone can carry on the same in his time.

We (Atba-e-Malak) have faith and believe in all the Imams from Maulana Hasan bin Maulana Ali Saheb to 21st Imam Maulana Tayeb Saheb and thereafter Dai-ul-Mutlaqs from Sayedna Zoeb Saheb to 46th Dai-ul-Mutlaq Sayedna Mohammed Badruddin Saheb up to the Hijri year 1256 (A.D. 1840). In the Hijri year 1256, the “Amar” passed into seclusion and the four Sahebs who carried on the “Amar” in seclusion are called as Mumallekeens one after the other from the year 1256 upto the year 1309 Hijri (A.D. 1891) were: (1) Sayedna Rehmat Malak Saheb (2) Sayedna Mohammadali Saheb (3) Sayedna Hebat-e-llah Saheb and (4) Sayedna Adamji Tayebji Saheb.

In the Hijri year 1309 (A.D. 1891) a Saheb of the name Maulana Abdulhusain Jiwajee Saheb announced in Bombay that “Daur-ul-Satar” was coming to its close, and that the “Amar” had passed on to Him and He proclaimed Himself Hujjat-e-Qayem and took the appellation of Maulana Malak Saheb. The Hujjat-e-Qayem is the one in the spiritual hierarchy who precedes the Qayem and works for announcing the advent of the Qayem. Maulana Malak Saheb announced that his period as Hujjat-e-Qayem would be of 10 years duration and called it the Akher-uz-Zaman (i.e. the last of the Daur-us-Satar) after which the Qayem would manifest Himself, and the said Qayem would be the Qayem-ala-Zikre-His-Salam according to the religious texts of the Dawoodi Bohra. He caused his period to commence and started Abedi San (year).

Maulana Malak Saheb passed away at Kuhari (Korhadi) a village near Nagpur, on 26th September 1899 (22nd Jamadil-Ula of the Abedi 9th year). He was ill for some time, and when His illness took a more serious turn, Maulana Malak Saheb directed the Kothari Saheb Sheikh Hasanali Ebrahimji Saheb on 24th September, 1899 (the 20th of Jamadil-Ula of the Abedi 9th year) to make preparation for his journey to Kuhari. A short distance from Kuhari He caused His carriage to stop and when all his followers had gathered around him he declared “Sheikh Abdulkader Ebrahimji, Kheti officer is the Vakil of My Mal and Milkat”. Maulana Malak Saheb thus nominated Maulana Abdulkar Ebrahimji Chimthanawala Saheb as his spiritual successor in accordance with and in fulfillment of his desire to appoint the Vakil to carry on the “Amar” after Him as expressed by Him in the discourse delivered earlier and referred to aforesaid. The words: “Mal and Milkar” referred to the spiritual heritage of Maulana Malak Saheb. Maulana Malak Saheb passed away on the second day following the aforesaid declaration.

Our further lineage is:
Maulana Abdeali Ebrahimji Saheb
Maulana Razak Saheb
Maulana Imdadali Saheb
our present Vali-us-Zaman Saheb is Maulana Tayeb Saheb

originally posted by topiwala

yusuftopiwala
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#64

Unread post by yusuftopiwala » Thu May 26, 2011 8:17 am

labbaikyaHussain:
200 people it means this sect is almost extinct.
We are not extinct, we have just started.
stranger:
So you people get split from the mainstream on the issue of rightful successor of 46th da'i..

but why named as 48'ers sect ?
It is because in the year 1944, 48 followers of (so called) mainstream, had left the mainstream and had joined our sect, hence we are also known as 48'ers (udtalis wala).

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#65

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu May 26, 2011 5:25 pm

Bro yusuf topiwala,

Welcome to the forum.

If my information is true then your sect is the one which wears a full white cap minus the zari work and has its headquarters at nagpur. In mumbai, the followers are mainly concentrated in vashi, navi mumbai. If this is the same sect then your estimate of 200 followers is wrong because there are much more then that in mumbai alone.

yusuftopiwala
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#66

Unread post by yusuftopiwala » Fri May 27, 2011 2:25 am

Brother Gulam,

You are right it is the same sect which you are talking about.

Hussain_KSA
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#67

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Sat May 28, 2011 6:48 am

Btrother Ghulam Mohammed.

The said sect was further divided in to two "Vakili" and Badari. The spilt took place due to nuss and property fued which is still in court. They are also known as "Mehdi Baughwala" "Nagpuri Bohras" 48 wala" Atabai Malak etc. Intresting note is that one of the group is still following is some traditions like pray, fasting etc while the other is like Khojas who don't pray or fast and their Imam does everything for them. I thin yousuf topiwala is from the minority group. During my research I had met some of the followers of this group.

I hope Yousuf topi wala will shed some light on this issue.

Regards

yusuftopiwala
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#68

Unread post by yusuftopiwala » Mon May 30, 2011 2:41 am

We are "Vakili", and we beleive in all the 7 tenants of Islam as per Dawoodi Bohra Faith in Batin.

Hussain_KSA
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#69

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Mon May 30, 2011 3:01 am

Badris are in majority and they don't follow any tenants of islam.

Ismaili1000
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#70

Unread post by Ismaili1000 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:38 am

porus wrote:
murtaza2152 wrote:Bro Porus,
Your Ilm has drowned you.

You consider yourself more superior than Doats and Hududs, As you are claiming they did shirk.....
Like you only are one who understands Tawheed,
All Doats didnt understand what Tawheed was and just teaching people to worship them,

How can you deny virtues of Duat Mutlaqeen if you have Ilm?
Either your mind has turned to Wahabi thought or Ilm has turned you to Jahil....

Sorry for harsh words but they are true for you.
We are not talking about ilm of Duaat al-Mutlaqeen. We are talking about Sadiq Ali's naseehat and sentiments expressed in them. I object to sujood for any entity except Allah and which violates the Quran.

If you wish to discuss Dai's ilm then produce some snippets from them and I will comment.
@Porus@Murtaza Brother Porus your very statement "then produce some snippets from them" proves you do not know what brother Murtaza is talking about you have not read the Ismaili doctrines at all had you, you would not need to ask anyways brother Porus since you are not well versed with the Ismaili doctrines your statement to not to bow down except to Allah subhanuhu is absolutely correct and stands undebateable no Shia no Sunni will debate this it is the law at point blank at the same time i completeley agree and stand by what brother Murtaza has quoted kitab ul himmah fi aadab al Aimaah yes he is absolutley right the chapter in which Syedna Qazi q.r. has taught the adaab for dukhul in the hazrath of the Imams he has definately mentioned sujud in front of them and i completely advocate the claim of Syedna al Qazi the founder of the Fatemi literate fundaments.

Brother Porus since you do not know and are debating fundaments of Fatemi culture thinking that they are wrong or created by those who have come lately let it be known to you that this is not the case if you read the fatimi history you will realise that it was in the culture to come into the presence of the Imam s.a with the gesture of sijda the only important point here to be noted is that there are 2 kinds of sijda's as mentioned by Syedna al Qazi q.r. one is sijda e Maabood and the second is sijda e shukr it is forbidden to perform sijda e Mabood to any one except Allah be it the Prophet be it Imam be it the Dais, the sijada e Mabood has 7 parts of the body in postrate as a mandation while sijda e shukr has only 6 and FYI the mandation of these 7 parts are not only avalable with the Ismailies but also available with the sunnis look up the bukhari and muslim you will get the references so as far as the Dawoodi's know and are educated with prostration of only 6 parts it is verily permissable and also has analogical sweetness to the act but if they are doing it in illiteracy and thinking this is the same prostrate as to the Maabood or are unknowingly prostrating sijda e Mabood then it is not correct and lawfull ....................

People in generations saw their Hududs and Dais doing the same and it followed like a trend and soon become mandation the act is sacred noble but the doers may not understand it or may change its value by giving it a new understanding ..................anyways if you ask me wether this means i say that sijda e shukr must be done in todays times i would say it depends on the Dai who prefers to be greeted like that or on the believer who wants to greet like that but compulsion for the same is not acceptable again i will repeat sijda e shukr may not be debated at all yes making is compulsory or at free will may be debated ............................

porus
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#71

Unread post by porus » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:57 am

Brother Ismaili1000,

Welcome to the forum. Your contributions display a refreshing depth and breadth of knowledge and I hope you will continue making erudite contributions. Challenge and counter-challenge are the soul of any forum and with that spirit we can all learn and let learn.
Ismaili1000 wrote: .... brother Porus since you are not well versed with the Ismaili doctrines your statement to not to bow down except to Allah subhanuhu is absolutely correct and stands undebateable no Shia no Sunni will debate this it is the law at point blank at the same time i completeley agree and stand by what brother Murtaza has quoted kitab ul himmah fi aadab al Aimaah yes he is absolutley right the chapter in which Syedna Qazi q.r. has taught the adaab for dukhul in the hazrath of the Imams he has definately mentioned sujud in front of them and i completely advocate the claim of Syedna al Qazi the founder of the Fatemi literate fundaments....
Brother Murtaza did produce a snippet from Kitabul Himma in the thread 'Kitab ul Himma and Sajda' which mentioned 'taqbeel al-ard' while approaching the Imam but appeared to prohibit sujood in any form to him. Please review that thread and offer us additional information about sujood to Imam from that book or any other book written during the Fatimid times. You will find no such justification in pre-Fatimid literature. If you do, please let us know.
Ismaili1000 wrote: Brother Porus since you do not know and are debating fundaments of Fatemi culture thinking that they are wrong or created by those who have come lately let it be known to you that this is not the case if you read the fatimi history you will realise that it was in the culture to come into the presence of the Imam s.a with the gesture of sijda the only important point here to be noted is that there are 2 kinds of sijda's as mentioned by Syedna al Qazi q.r. one is sijda e Maabood and the second is sijda e shukr it is forbidden to perform sijda e Mabood to any one except Allah be it the Prophet be it Imam be it the Dais, the sijada e Mabood has 7 parts of the body in postrate as a mandation while sijda e shukr has only 6 and FYI the mandation of these 7 parts are not only avalable with the Ismailies but also available with the sunnis look up the bukhari and muslim you will get the references so as far as the Dawoodi's know and are educated with prostration of only 6 parts it is verily permissable and also has analogical sweetness to the act but if they are doing it in illiteracy and thinking this is the same prostrate as to the Maabood or are unknowingly prostrating sijda e Mabood then it is not correct and lawfull ....................

People in generations saw their Hududs and Dais doing the same and it followed like a trend and soon become mandation the act is sacred noble but the doers may not understand it or may change its value by giving it a new understanding ..................anyways if you ask me wether this means i say that sijda e shukr must be done in todays times i would say it depends on the Dai who prefers to be greeted like that or on the believer who wants to greet like that but compulsion for the same is not acceptable again i will repeat sijda e shukr may not be debated at all yes making is compulsory or at free will may be debated ............................
Those who claim that sajda to Dai is permitted in whatever form have mentioned these two different types of sajda, sajadat al-ubudiyya and sajadat as-shukr, many times in this forum. I have a copy of 'Kitabul Himma' in original Arabic and I am currently going through it. Could you please identify for me the chapter, page reference or paragraph where the distinction between these two types of sujood has been pointed out. Thank you.

I also have the original Arabic versions of Sayedna Qadi Noman's Da:aa:imut Ta:awil, in addition to his Da:aa:imul Islam. Similarly, would you care to identify the precise locations of the mention of these two types of sajda to Imam or Dai in these books? Thank you.

anajmi
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#72

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:50 am

the sijada e Mabood has 7 parts of the body in postrate as a mandation while sijda e shukr has only 6
Can you please expand on this a little bit as well? Which 7 parts and which 6 parts? Thanks

porus
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#73

Unread post by porus » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:14 am

Here is an interesting take on the subject of sajda to the Dai. It is an excerpt from an interview by al-Jazeera with the Sayedna's representative Salman Rasheed in Haraaz, San,’aa, Yemen in August 2001. Note how he flatly denies that sajda to anyone other than Allah is practised by Bohras (he does not mention different types of sujood).

http://www.aljazeera.net/news/archive/a ... veId=13380

This is a hard-hitting interview an example of which you would not see anywhere else. The following extract is about half way down the page. I have translated the excerpt for your information.


لكننا شاهدنا فيلما وثائقيا فيه بعض من جماعتكم يمارسون طقوساً مع الداعي المطلق رقم 52 برهان الدين, ورأيناهم يسجدون له, فلماذا هذا السجود للسلطان برهان الدين؟


تدخل علي عوض الخدر مدير مدرسة تابعة للبهرة في منطقة حراز بمحافظة صنعاء ليرد قائلاً سأتكلم باسم السيد سلمان رشيد: أولاً هذا الفيلم, الذي تتحدث عنه هو فيلم مدبلج. أنا أستطيع أن أصنع لك فيلما ليس واقعيا تماما، وهذا الفيلم أنتجه أعداؤنا من المنافقين الخارجين عن دعوتنا.. دبلجوا الفيلم للإساءة إلى عظمة السلطان, ونحن في عقيدتنا نقول لعنة الله على من يسجد لغير الله سبحانه وتعالى.. هذه خلاصة كلامنا في هذا الموضوع
.


But we saw a documentary film in which some of your Jamaat were exercising rituals in front odf the 52nd Da’i al’Mutlaq Burhanuddin and we we saw them performing sujood to him. Why this sujood to the Sultan Burhanuddin?

Ali Awad al-Khidr, Director of the Madrassa for the Bohra followers in al-Haraaz region of of the Protectorate of San’aa, interfered saying:

” I will speak on behalf of Mr Salman Rasheed. First, this film, about which you are talking about, is a concoted film. I can also make you a film completely devoid of facts. And this film is the product of our enemies from Munafiqeen who have left our Da’awat. They have concocted this film to insult the greatness of the Sultan and we, in our belief, say la’anat of Allah on those who do sajda to anyone other than Allah, Subhanahu Ta’ala…This is our final word (khulasa kalaama-na) on this subject.”

anajmi
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#74

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:30 am

:mrgreen: A very interesting and I would say enlightening find. Now watch how the abdes come back with "Taqiyya".

anajmi
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#75

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:24 pm

A couple of other interesting points from this interview (courtesy Google Translate), and I paraphrase.

The money "donated" by the abdes is completely voluntary and no one is forced.

We support the Palestinian cause but do not speak it as that would be hypocrisy.


The translation might be wrong or we might be under chader and taqiyya.

Ismaili1000
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#76

Unread post by Ismaili1000 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:40 pm

@Porus Firstly many thanks for your warm gesture of welcome i hope i may be able to contribute .......

"Brother Murtaza did produce a snippet from Kitabul Himma in the thread 'Kitab ul Himma and Sajda' which mentioned 'taqbeel al-ard' while approaching the Imam but appeared to prohibit sujood in any form to him. Please review that thread and offer us additional information about sujood to Imam from that book or any other book written during the Fatimid times. You will find no such justification in pre-Fatimid literature. If you do, please let us know"

@Porus i have given a complete detail of what Syedna al Qazi teaches through his revered book i believe it does not require to be repeated and yes i have mentioned many times in my post that we all the entire Islam refuses sijda e Mabood to any one except him the allmighty .......yes there are ample number of books from the tayyabi daur both in shariah and in taweel which verily explain the difference between the two sujuds and their respective taweeli or analogical meanings in fact one of the seerats of Syedna Dawood bin ajab shah q.r. mentions how he would go to the zareeh of Duats and prostate in sijda e shukr in those times where king ship was a common phenomena sijda e shukr was a very common thing even with other than the Fatimis do read the seerat of Maulana Mustansir billah you will see how common this practice was please note i am once again saying am not advocating this practice all am saying is it is not the sijdah you happen to understand
Ismaili1000 wrote: Brother Porus since you do not know and are debating fundaments of Fatemi culture thinking that they are wrong or created by those who have come lately let it be known to you that this is not the case if you read the fatimi history you will realise that it was in the culture to come into the presence of the Imam s.a with the gesture of sijda the only important point here to be noted is that there are 2 kinds of sijda's as mentioned by Syedna al Qazi q.r. one is sijda e Maabood and the second is sijda e shukr it is forbidden to perform sijda e Mabood to any one except Allah be it the Prophet be it Imam be it the Dais, the sijada e Mabood has 7 parts of the body in postrate as a mandation while sijda e shukr has only 6 and FYI the mandation of these 7 parts are not only avalable with the Ismailies but also available with the sunnis look up the bukhari and muslim you will get the references so as far as the Dawoodi's know and are educated with prostration of only 6 parts it is verily permissable and also has analogical sweetness to the act but if they are doing it in illiteracy and thinking this is the same prostrate as to the Maabood or are unknowingly prostrating sijda e Mabood then it is not correct and lawfull ....................

People in generations saw their Hududs and Dais doing the same and it followed like a trend and soon become mandation the act is sacred noble but the doers may not understand it or may change its value by giving it a new understanding ..................anyways if you ask me wether this means i say that sijda e shukr must be done in todays times i would say it depends on the Dai who prefers to be greeted like that or on the believer who wants to greet like that but compulsion for the same is not acceptable again i will repeat sijda e shukr may not be debated at all yes making is compulsory or at free will may be debated ............................
"Those who claim that sajda to Dai is permitted in whatever form have mentioned these two different types of sajda, sajadat al-ubudiyya and sajadat as-shukr, many times in this forum. I have a copy of 'Kitabul Himma' in original Arabic and I am currently going through it. Could you please identify for me the chapter, page reference or paragraph where the distinction between these two types of sujood has been pointed out. Thank you."

@Porus Brother i want you to know that kitab ul Himmah is just one of the works of Syedna al Qazi q.r. there are hundreds of books written by him most of them lost in time and it is imppossible to understand any of his statements by just reading one book as he is one author who has left little piece of explaination of a single topic spread over many books for e.g. just by reading the Daim one cannot claim of knowing the entire shariah there is the Hawashi the Iftekhar the Usul the Tauheed the Nasaeh the Yanboo the Fikh the Mukhtasar the Eezah and i can go on and on once you have the good fortune of completing his Namat you will have a complete tassavur of what he says on a particular topic .......as i have mentioned in my earlier post look into the chapter which explains dukhul in the Hazrath of the Imams and please keep in mind what you find in this book is just a part of what he has spread over various books .........The Duats of Yemen were asked by the Hududs of Hind on both the sujuds and their identification and they (Duats) clarified the difference between them and that is exactly what i have posted mentioning the difference of 6 and 7 aaza .......not only this but in fact Syedna Dawood bin Ajab Shah ji also explains the taweeli meaning to the sijda e shukr in one of his books based on questions and answeres on taweel .......

"I also have the original Arabic versions of Sayedna Qadi Noman's Da:aa:imut Ta:awil, in addition to his Da:aa:imul Islam. Similarly, would you care to identify the precise locations of the mention of these two types of sajda to Imam or Dai in these books? Thank you.[/quote]"

@Porus Which versions from the arabic Daim do you have is it a printed version or is it a manuscript as if it is a printed version check who is the muhaqiq and from where is it printed as many muhaqiqs whos name would not be appropriate to mention have carelessly printed the book and left mistakes which actually change the essense and meaning of a subject ..........Brother it makes no sense that i or any one gives you pages and paraghs if you have really read the Himmah thoroughly you will know as its not just one paragh or chapter but the entire book only teaches to be abeed or literal meaning slaves to the Prophet and his Sons and whom so ever represents them this is the entire tassawur of the entire book it has been written to teach u how to become slaves.
Last edited by Ismaili1000 on Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ismaili1000
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#77

Unread post by Ismaili1000 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:46 pm

@anajmi
anajmi wrote:
the sijada e Mabood has 7 parts of the body in postrate as a mandation while sijda e shukr has only 6
Can you please expand on this a little bit as well? Which 7 parts and which 6 parts? Thanks
Brother i feel this may not be the platform to discuss the same but if you have a teacher of a good caliber please ask him else if you have access to books start reading from the begining Namat of Shariah and you will soon know.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#78

Unread post by porus » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:15 pm

Brother ismaili1000,

Your reply is not satisfactory. The argument that the book I have may not be authentic has been made before, notably by our brother aqs on this forum. If the justification for sajadat ash-shukr is spread all over the Fatimid books then clearly one such snippet must be available in one of the books that you can reproduce here. It is not like it says that one part of your body should be on the floor in one book and another part of your body should be on the floor in another book. There is bound to be a complete description and justification of this type of sajda in one place just as is described in the arkaan of namaaz for sajda to Allah.

Please do not skirt round the question. I do not care which Imam or which Dai has performed sajda to another human being. You must show that Rasulullah has performed such sajda and that he has asked Muslims to follow him in performing sajadat ash-shukr to another human being. Or that Rasulullah has approved sajda to him by other human beings. You must also show that it does not violate several ayats in the Quran which prohibits sajda to any one other than Allah in any form whatsoever.

Regarding the members of the body involved in sajda, let us count them.

Foar a sajda in namaaz they are:

1. forehead 2. nose 3. hands 4. knees 5. feet.

That makes 5. Which is the sixth one?

Or

1. forehead 2. nose 3. hand one 4. hand two 4. knee one 5. knee two 6. foot one 7. foot two

That makes 7

Now sujood for shukr. If you include kissing of earth or the Imam's or Dai's feet they become 6 and 8 respectively. The additional member being lips.

If you consider a Dai's acceptance of sajda to him as ok, then no further justification is needed apart from the practice of the 51st and the 52nd Dais. The question is are they following the Quran and Prophet? That question applies all people including Imams and Dais. No exception.

Name dropping of books is not enough. Please produce evidence if you want me to take you seriously. Thanks.

Ismaili1000
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#79

Unread post by Ismaili1000 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:10 pm

@Porus
porus wrote:Brother ismaili1000,

Your reply is not satisfactory. The argument that the book I have may not be authentic has been made before, notably by our brother aqs on this forum. If the justification for sajadat ash-shukr is spread all over the Fatimid books then clearly one such snippet must be available in one of the books that you can reproduce here. It is not like it says that one part of your body should be on the floor in one book and another part of your body should be on the floor in another book. There is bound to be a complete description and justification of this type of sajda in one place just as is described in the arkaan of namaaz for sajda to Allah.

ok Brother suit your self .......by the way what are you looking for in the Daim it has nothing to do with this topic and i mentioned about its editing issues as i have personall edited 3 versions so i thought this info would be usefull to you

Please do not skirt round the question. I do not care which Imam or which Dai has performed sajda to another human being. You must show that Rasulullah has performed such sajda and that he has asked Muslims to follow him in performing sajadat ash-shukr to another human being. Or that Rasulullah has approved sajda to him by other human beings. You must also show that it does not violate several ayats in the Quran which prohibits sajda to any one other than Allah in any form whatsoever.

@Porus i guess you do not know the subject so it would be in vain to debate over the issue as i am saying apple and you are saying banana you are still making the sijda e shukr sijda e Mabood

Regarding the members of the body involved in sajda, let us count them.

Foar a sajda in namaaz they are:

1. forehead 2. nose 3. hands 4. knees 5. feet.

That makes 5. Which is the sixth one?

Or

1. forehead 2. nose 3. hand one 4. hand two 4. knee one 5. knee two 6. foot one 7. foot two

That makes 7

Now sujood for shukr. If you include kissing of earth or the Imam's or Dai's feet they become 6 and 8 respectively. The additional member being lips

@Porus he he he he he he he he he he do you believe that this is how our Duats jotted down their knowledge they would sit think calculate do trials and errors then decide what to write where as the entire Ismaili sect believes that the Dai writes through ilhaam do you think that without learning you are of the caliber to match the ilhaam ? the very fact that you dont know how many aaza go into the sujud proves that you pray with naqs your sijdas are not complete

If you consider Dai's acceptance of sajda to him then no justification is needed apart from the practice of the 51st and the 52nd Dais. The question is are they following the Quran and Prophet? That question applies all people including Imams and Dais. No exception.

@Porus all i know is what i have learned and spend years reading and writing and researching the Fatemis and accordingly i said yes the sijda e shukr is there and it is permitted and lawfull in fact it has taweeli meanings to it which i have been repeatedly mentioning.......please do not talk like that brother do not say are they following the Quran and the Prophet you may not understand or agree to their practice's thats fair enough but do not talk like that as before you raise a finger on any one of them be it the Fatemi Duat or Aimah compare your self and your religious study with them see the number of efforts and years they have dedicated in studying and practicing many of them are authors to fabulous books which include poetry and literature how many books have you read how many books have you authored comparitively ask your self if not then you must not speak like that you are very much free to form your opinions but do not try to decide who is following the Quran and who is not i know by your doubts and basic questions that you are not a trained Fatemi you have not read our manuscripts and that is what makes you so uneasy .......Please do not talk about following the Prophet and the Quran when you dont know what sujud is ......just through this forum you have been introduced to 2 kinds in them and you are not ready to accept them or understand them where as the Duats have mentioned many other sujuds which actually dont involve any parts of a human body which am very sure is now again very mysterious and a doubtfull issue for you still i will not explain as you are not here to understand you are here to prove that you are right

Name dropping of books is not enough. Please produce evidence if you want me to take you seriously. Thanks.
@Porus dropping names of books is a very small thing the Fatemis have kept the names of the sons of the Holly Prophet secret do you know that and Allah subhanuhu has dropped writing the inner meanings of his book clearly and never cared what if tommorow a whole bunch of Muslims stand up claiming there is no inner meaning to it in fact he made fruits with hard nut shell covers and hid sweet water inside it and never cared what the ungratefull would say looking at a hard shell like that as he knew that the intelligent would find a way to the water inside even before i bring home some one to my house i think a thousand times as i cannot keep my house open for every one only the deserving are taken inside and i guess every one does the same.Evidence has been given in an open forum it requires some one from the forensic feild to judge it lame people cannot see or judge evidence inspite of it being available as its not their field.Please Sir do not take me seriously as from your replies i have stopped taking you seriously i genuinely thought there was a researcher trying to fullfill his educational gaps so i thought might as well help

seeker110
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#80

Unread post by seeker110 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:18 pm

It is getting way too deep for my comfort level.Islam was suppose to easy.One kind of sajda is good enough.This five and six kind is too much specially when they forget the envalope in one hand,facing Mecca or what ever.

porus
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#81

Unread post by porus » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:33 pm

Thank you brother ismaili1000.

I accept that you have the knowledge but you have chosen not to impart it. My wife always argues with me in your fashion. She says "Do you think that you excel all the du'aats and a:immat in their knowledge? You must sit at their feet to understand the taawil behind our religion." And I say "Quite so, quite so!"

I would have asked you how you perform sujood without bending down. Rumi stopped praying namaaz. He said he was always with Allah and every part of his body was in sajda to Allah all the time. I think that that is great 'ta:awil'.

I will remind my children to be on watch when Mulla teaches them how to perform sujood. He might be a ta:awil adept and may forget to tell them to put forehead and nose on the floor! :)

Good bye, sir!

Ismaili1000
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#82

Unread post by Ismaili1000 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:40 pm

porus wrote:Thank you brother ismaili1000.

I accept that you have the knowledge but you have chosen not to impart it. My wife always argues with me in your fashion. She says "Do you think that you excel all the du'aats and a:immat in their knowledge? You must sit at their feet to understand the taawil behind our religion." And I say "Quite so, quite so!"

I would have asked you how you perform sujood without bending down. Rumi stopped praying namaaz. He said he was always with Allah and every part of his body was in sajda to Allah all the time. I think that that is great 'ta:awil'.

I will remind my children to be on watch when Mulla teaches them how to perform sujood. He might be a ta:awil adept and may forget to tell them to put forehead and nose on the floor! :)

Good bye, sir!
@Porus :D :lol:

SBM
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#83

Unread post by SBM » Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:05 pm

Brother i feel this may not be the platform to discuss the same but if you have a teacher of a good caliber please ask him
why do not you become the teacher?and what other platform can you discuss the same?
Ismaili
You sound like one of those abdes who always hide behind Sabak and the secret oath. What good the knowledge is if you can not share it
Think if NASA Scientists would not have shared their knowledge, you would not have this forum to discuss anything(part of wireless technology)
Remember spring water which is flowing is always fresh while water in ponds become stinking as they do not flow, I am not scholar of Islam and I do not have depth of knowledge shown by Porus, Aqs, Hussain, Anajmi and Profstatin, GM and others but I learned something even though members from Abde side always hide behind secret oath of their Sabaks whenever confronted with questions.

anajmi
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#84

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:35 pm

Brother i feel this may not be the platform to discuss the same but if you have a teacher of a good caliber please ask him else if you have access to books start reading from the begining Namat of Shariah and you will soon know.
If this is not the platform to discuss it, then why the hell did you bring it up in the first place? I have a good caliber teacher and he told me that this two types of sajda is nothing but bohra invented crap to promote idol worship of their Dai and every day I talk to people like you, my belief in that becomes stronger. Its too bad you fizzled out even before we had started.

anajmi
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#85

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:42 pm

Now sujood for shukr. If you include kissing of earth or the Imam's or Dai's feet they become 6 and 8 respectively. The additional member being lips.
Actually, they still remain 5 and 6 because no matter how hard I try, I cannot touch my forehead, nose and lips on the ground at the same time. If my lips touch the ground, then the forehead is raised and if my forehead touches the ground, my lips are raised. Maybe it's just me and my nose getting in the way.

anajmi
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#86

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:53 pm

After doing extensive research on the subject, I have found references from Muslims that cannot be doubted either by shias or sunnis, that there is no kind of sajda that is allowed for anyone other than Allah. Sajda of 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 parts can only be done for Allah. Anyone, doing such a sajda for any human is doing shirk. Again, this is from muslim that are revered by both shias and sunnis and they cannot be doubted.

anajmi
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#87

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:20 pm

porus,

I have to admit, I thought you were a taawiler, but I am mistaken. Here is another taawiler who is even beyond you.

There are different kinds of sajdas. For eg. when you are unable to stand and pray, your sajda is different. When you pray lying down because you cannot get up, the sajda is different. The bohra taawilers have taken that to another level beyond imagination!!!

anajmi
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#88

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:41 pm

Rumi stopped praying namaaz. He said he was always with Allah and every part of his body was in sajda to Allah all the time. I think that that is great 'ta:awil'.
I don't think Rumi understood the Quran better than the prophet (saw), and if the prophet (saw) chose to do sajda and asked his followers to do the same, then I would consider Rumi to be a deviant and not a great taawiler.

porus
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#89

Unread post by porus » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:09 am

anajmi wrote:porus,

I have to admit, I thought you were a taawiler, but I am mistaken. Here is another taawiler who is even beyond you.

There are different kinds of sajdas. For eg. when you are unable to stand and pray, your sajda is different. When you pray lying down because you cannot get up, the sajda is different. The bohra taawilers have taken that to another level beyond imagination!!!
anajmi,

Your cynicism with respect to the current debate with Ismaili1000 is perfectly understandable. Let me summarize what went on between him and me.

There are two versions of ta:awil. His ta:wil is concerned with performing sajda to Imam and Dai and presumably to Dai's children and grandchildren too. The 'ilm' behind the ta:wil is secret and can only be imparted to a select few. They are in books but the books cannot be revealed to anyone. They are written by du'aat. And the ta:wil is like a jig-saw puzzle spread over many pieces, each piece being located in a separate book. The books are by different authors and they are authored through a special process of 'ilhaam' . the complete view cannot be had by anyone except by a Dai. So it is useless to try even to piece it together. Yours is but to obey. You are like a monkey who can see a hard walnut but cannot even guess that there is nutritious food hidden inside the shell. You would be very lucky to have learned it and if you did you cannot tell anyone about it.

Then there is my view. Ta:awil is literally a process of the return to the One, that is Allah. The very word Ta:wil is derived from awwal, meaning one. It is the understanding that Allah is infinite in His essence and this essence consists of infinite knowledge, wisdom, power and love. Human beings have this essence in miniscule quantities by virtue of the Quranic ayat which explains that Allah has breathed His spirit (essence) into Adam and his children.

However his ability to exercise this essence has been greatly diminished by his Fall and his descent into negativity by inventing polarities of essence where he suffers opposite of knowledge, wisdom, power and love. He forgets that he is from Allah and to Allah he must return. In other words, he forgets his essence and that the way back to it is available. While help is available for the asking it must be given and taken with no strings attached. Every one is responsible for one's own salvation. If one is offered help by abdicating personal essence to someone else, he is falling into even deeper fall and away from taawil. He must not give power to anyone and he must in the end seek power only from Allah. His essence is infinite and it is available everywhere. No parasites are needed in Allah's scheme. No sajda to any human otherwise Prophet would have taught us to do it like he taught us to do Allah's zikr. Allah's mercy pours out in all directions continually and its yours for the taking, no strings attached.

Ta:awil has its place in Islam as revealed to Prophet. It has also political and social use, illegitimate I might add, where it is used to keep the ignorant masses in submission. One thing is certain. Those who cannot share Allah's essence of wisdom, power, knowledge and love freely, then they do not have the real thing because the very nature of the real thing is that it demands izhaar, the flowing out. It cannot be held back. Such is its power.

That is the why Prophet revealed the Quran. That is why mystics, Jesus, Buddha and countless others have shown the way. None claimed you must study for years to get the essence but offered techniques freely because they could not dam the flow of essence which they partook of from the Almighty.

Ismaili1000
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Re: Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

#90

Unread post by Ismaili1000 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:54 am

anajmi wrote:
Brother i feel this may not be the platform to discuss the same but if you have a teacher of a good caliber please ask him else if you have access to books start reading from the begining Namat of Shariah and you will soon know.
If this is not the platform to discuss it, then why the hell did you bring it up in the first place? I have a good caliber teacher and he told me that this two types of sajda is nothing but bohra invented crap to promote idol worship of their Dai and every day I talk to people like you, my belief in that becomes stronger. Its too bad you fizzled out even before we had started.
@anajmi @porus
with all my respects to your understanding and regrets to your way of delivering your debates if Sunnah and Quran is what you wish to understand inspite of you not studied the same let me jot down a few references from Bukhari shareef a book well known amongst ahl e Sunnah wal Jamaat for its authenticated Hadees and narrations :

"KADAM BOSI...”

It is reported that Imam Muslim kissed the forehead of Imam Bukhari and then requested:
دعني حتی أقبّل رجليک، يا أستاذ الأستاذين وسيد المحدّثين وطبيب الحديث في علله.

O teacher of teachers, master of traditionists and grand scholar on hadith weaknesses, ALLOW ME TO KISS YOUR FEET!
(Ibn Nuqta, at-Taqyid, 1:33; Dhahabi, Siyar, 12:432, 436; Nawawi, Tahdhib al-asma` wal-lughat, 1:88; `Asqalani, Muqaddima fath al-bari, 488)
Suhayb (ra), slave of Abbas (ra) stated:
رَأَيْتُ عَلِيًّا يُقَبِّلُ يَدَ الْعَبَّاسِ وَرِجْلَيْهِ وَيَقُوْلُ: يَا عَمِّ ارْضَ عَنِّي.

I saw Ali (ra) kissing the hands and feet of Abbas (ra) and he would keep saying this: O my Uncle! Become pleased with me.
(Bukhari, al-Adab al-mufrad, 339, #976)
لَمَّا قَدِمْنَا الْمَدِيْنَةَ فَجَعَلْنَا نَتَبَادَرُ مِنْ رَوَاحِلِنَا، فَنُقَبِّلُ يَدَ رَسُولِ اﷲِصلی الله عليه وآله وسلم وَرِجْلَهُ.

Kissing feet is allowed by Imam Bukhari. {{{See Bukhari, alAdab ul Mufrad, Page: 339, Hadith No. 975}}}
لَمَّا قَدِمْنَا الْمَدِيْنَةَ فَجَعَلْنَا نَتَبَادَرُ مِنْ رَوَاحِلِنَا، فَنُقَبِّلُ يَدَ رَسُولِ اﷲِصلی الله عليه وآله وسلم وَرِجْلَهُ.
When we came to the holy city of Madina, we jumped down from riding animals and began to kiss the blessed hands and feet of the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him).

This hadith is related by Imam Abu Dawud in as-Sunan (vol. 4, p. 357 # 5225). Moreover Imam Bayhaqi also narrated this in as-Sunan al-Kubra (vol. 7, p. 102) and Imam Tabarani in two of his books: al-Mujam al-Kabir (vol. 5, p. 275 # 5313); and al-Mujam al-Awsat (vol. 1, p. 133 # 418).

'Sijdatain'
There are two types of Sajda (Prostration). One is the Sajda of Ibadah, and the other is Sajda-e-Tahiyyaat:

1. Sajda-e-Ibadah or Sajda-e-Mabood (سجدهء عباده): This Sajda is performed for worshiping and it is done only and solely for Allah I. It is regarded as a fundamental part of worship. This Sajda is totally forbidden for any creation. It is for the One and only Creator, that is, Almighty Allah I.

2. Sajda-e-Tazeem or Tahayyat or Shukr (سجده تعظيم يا تحيت): This Sajda is performed without the intention of worship in honour and respect of anyone other than Allah I. The parents and brothers performed such Sajdas to Sayyiduna Yusuf alaihis salaam and the Angels performed to Nabi Adam alaihis salaam.

1) “And remember when We ordered the Angels to prostrate to Adam.” (Surah Baqarah, verse 34)
(2) “They (the parents and brothers of Hazrat Yusuf (Alaihis Salaam) fell in prostration to him.” (Surah Yusuf, verse 100)

'Two Rakaat Nafil in front of Muqam e Ibrahim ( Alaihis salaam )'

Our intension is not worship of this Muqam but we have to bend towards or in front Muqam e Ibrahim for 2 Rakah of Nafil until which our umrah and hajj is not complete. 360 idols were of stones and muqam ibrahim is also stone. 360 stones were thrown out but one stone containing the feet of the pious has importance in Islam.

Can any muslim dare that I will not read this 2 rakaah Salah in front of this Muqam. I will not read this 2 nafil in front of the stone containing feets of the phaigambar. Then in this case he his hajj or umrah will be thrown on his face.


So here intension and Worship is of allah but the feets are of pious personality. One side people are kissing the stone and one side people are bowing in front of the stone. From this we can conclude Worship and Tazeem are two different issues..................

The very fact that Allah Subhanuhu ordered his Malaika to prostrate before Adam and punished Iblees for not doing so basically shows Sajda e Tazeem and this was not Sajda e Ibadah as he himself says 'and only me will you worship'