Syedi Sadiq Ali Saheb's Nasihat

[Ismaili1000]

Brother i feel this may not be the platform to discuss the same but if you have a teacher of a good caliber please ask him else if you have access to books start reading from the begining Namat of Shariah and you will soon know.

If this is not the platform to discuss it, then why the hell did you bring it up in the first place? I have a good caliber teacher and he told me that this two types of sajda is nothing but bohra invented crap to promote idol worship of their Dai and every day I talk to people like you, my belief in that becomes stronger. Its too bad you fizzled out even before we had started.

@anajmi @porus
with all my respects to your understanding and regrets to your way of delivering your debates if Sunnah and Quran is what you wish to understand inspite of you not studied the same let me jot down a few references from Bukhari shareef a book well known amongst ahl e Sunnah wal Jamaat for its authenticated Hadees and narrations :

"KADAM BOSI...”

It is reported that Imam Muslim kissed the forehead of Imam Bukhari and then requested:
دعني حتی أقبّل رجليک، يا أستاذ الأستاذين وسيد المحدّثين وطبيب الحديث في علله.

O teacher of teachers, master of traditionists and grand scholar on hadith weaknesses, ALLOW ME TO KISS YOUR FEET!
(Ibn Nuqta, at-Taqyid, 1:33; Dhahabi, Siyar, 12:432, 436; Nawawi, Tahdhib al-asma` wal-lughat, 1:88; `Asqalani, Muqaddima fath al-bari, 488)
Suhayb (ra), slave of Abbas (ra) stated:
رَأَيْتُ عَلِيًّا يُقَبِّلُ يَدَ الْعَبَّاسِ وَرِجْلَيْهِ وَيَقُوْلُ: يَا عَمِّ ارْضَ عَنِّي.

I saw Ali (ra) kissing the hands and feet of Abbas (ra) and he would keep saying this: O my Uncle! Become pleased with me.
(Bukhari, al-Adab al-mufrad, 339, #976)
لَمَّا قَدِمْنَا الْمَدِيْنَةَ فَجَعَلْنَا نَتَبَادَرُ مِنْ رَوَاحِلِنَا، فَنُقَبِّلُ يَدَ رَسُولِ اﷲِصلی الله عليه وآله وسلم وَرِجْلَهُ.

Kissing feet is allowed by Imam Bukhari. {{{See Bukhari, alAdab ul Mufrad, Page: 339, Hadith No. 975}}}
لَمَّا قَدِمْنَا الْمَدِيْنَةَ فَجَعَلْنَا نَتَبَادَرُ مِنْ رَوَاحِلِنَا، فَنُقَبِّلُ يَدَ رَسُولِ اﷲِصلی الله عليه وآله وسلم وَرِجْلَهُ.
When we came to the holy city of Madina, we jumped down from riding animals and began to kiss the blessed hands and feet of the Holy Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him).

This hadith is related by Imam Abu Dawud in as-Sunan (vol. 4, p. 357 # 5225). Moreover Imam Bayhaqi also narrated this in as-Sunan al-Kubra (vol. 7, p. 102) and Imam Tabarani in two of his books: al-Mujam al-Kabir (vol. 5, p. 275 # 5313); and al-Mujam al-Awsat (vol. 1, p. 133 # 418).

'Sijdatain'
There are two types of Sajda (Prostration). One is the Sajda of Ibadah, and the other is Sajda-e-Tahiyyaat:

1. Sajda-e-Ibadah or Sajda-e-Mabood (سجدهء عباده): This Sajda is performed for worshiping and it is done only and solely for Allah I. It is regarded as a fundamental part of worship. This Sajda is totally forbidden for any creation. It is for the One and only Creator, that is, Almighty Allah I.

2. Sajda-e-Tazeem or Tahayyat or Shukr (سجده تعظيم يا تحيت): This Sajda is performed without the intention of worship in honour and respect of anyone other than Allah I. The parents and brothers performed such Sajdas to Sayyiduna Yusuf alaihis salaam and the Angels performed to Nabi Adam alaihis salaam.

1) “And remember when We ordered the Angels to prostrate to Adam.” (Surah Baqarah, verse 34)
(2) “They (the parents and brothers of Hazrat Yusuf (Alaihis Salaam) fell in prostration to him.” (Surah Yusuf, verse 100)

'Two Rakaat Nafil in front of Muqam e Ibrahim ( Alaihis salaam )'

Our intension is not worship of this Muqam but we have to bend towards or in front Muqam e Ibrahim for 2 Rakah of Nafil until which our umrah and hajj is not complete. 360 idols were of stones and muqam ibrahim is also stone. 360 stones were thrown out but one stone containing the feet of the pious has importance in Islam.

Can any muslim dare that I will not read this 2 rakaah Salah in front of this Muqam. I will not read this 2 nafil in front of the stone containing feets of the phaigambar. Then in this case he his hajj or umrah will be thrown on his face.


So here intension and Worship is of allah but the feets are of pious personality. One side people are kissing the stone and one side people are bowing in front of the stone. From this we can conclude Worship and Tazeem are two different issues..................

The very fact that Allah Subhanuhu ordered his Malaika to prostrate before Adam and punished Iblees for not doing so basically shows Sajda e Tazeem and this was not Sajda e Ibadah as he himself says 'and only me will you worship'

[Ismaili1000]

porus,

I have to admit, I thought you were a taawiler, but I am mistaken. Here is another taawiler who is even beyond you.

There are different kinds of sajdas. For eg. when you are unable to stand and pray, your sajda is different. When you pray lying down because you cannot get up, the sajda is different. The bohra taawilers have taken that to another level beyond imagination!!!

@Anjami here is a person who denies beliefs from the Quran and claims to be a Muslim the Holy Quran states:
"None knows the ‘taweel' of the Qur'an excepting God and those who are well-grounded in knowledge." has this ayat been manifested by the Fatemis ?? or is it a revelation from the Lord ??

Then there is my view. Ta:awil is literally a process of the return to the One, that is Allah. The very word Ta:wil is derived from awwal, meaning one. It is the understanding that Allah is infinite in His essence and this essence consists of infinite knowledge, wisdom, power and love. Human beings have this essence in miniscule quantities by virtue of the Quranic ayat which explains that Allah has breathed His spirit (essence) into Adam and his children.

@Porus am extremely sorry you do not know Arabic the word Taweel is derived from 'awaala' 'uawwalo' which means to interpret please refer to Misbah ul Lughat or any translated Quran like Sheikh Yusuf Ali or Sheikh Abdullah or refer to Majalis al Moayyadiyah please provide me references from ahl e sunna or the shias proving that it means one this is not done it is grametically not correct

Anyways such things are not matters of my opinion and your opinion we need to speak as per the explainations and rules penned down by authentic scholars be it sunni be it shia and i have not spoken anything in my opinion but only what the books classify, do you know in how many categories is Taweel verily described by Islamic scholars :

1. Al Taweel al Saheeh “Sound taweel”

It is based on sound principles and you are presenting evidence for the taweel.

2.Al Taweel as Faasid “Unsound taweel”

Under closes inspection you find the evidence is weak, for example hadith is not sahih. Among the four madhabs you will have saheeh or faasid taweel.

3. Al Taweel al Baatil al Mardood “False or rejected taweel”

This taweel has no basis in the Arabic language. It contradicts the apparent or dhahir meaning of the text. Some scholars call it playing with the text. Some say if you persist with this taweel then you are performing kufr.

This type of taweel is resorted by the heretic groups. One heretic group uses esoteric meaning of the Quran that contradicts the apparent meaning of the text.

4.Taweel al Qareeb - Taweel that is close to the apparent meaning. It is not a stretch of imagination.

5.Taweel al Baeed- Taweel that is further away from the apparent meaning, now you have to present evidence to show why the taweel is so further away.

all this is what is there amongst the Islamic scholars the 4 major sunni sects not from my pocket or from the pockets of Bohras and is widely accepted by Muslims shias and sunnis alike i have only quoted from sunni scholars as your knowledge even towards ahl e sunna wal jammat is not there..........how can u just mock your beliefs your fundaments just because a few Mullas dont practice them correctly will you make the entire base of your religion wrong for a few wrong doers ??

"wa ma alaina ilal balaagh"

[Ismaili1000]

Brother i feel this may not be the platform to discuss the same but if you have a teacher of a good caliber please ask him else if you have access to books start reading from the begining Namat of Shariah and you will soon know.

If this is not the platform to discuss it, then why the hell did you bring it up in the first place? I have a good caliber teacher and he told me that this two types of sajda is nothing but bohra invented crap to promote idol worship of their Dai and every day I talk to people like you, my belief in that becomes stronger. Its too bad you fizzled out even before we had started.

@anjami this forum is open to discussions its not a university campus i have put forward my post which is meant to only create awareness if you want education look for it else where and you seriously need it dont waste your time trying to criticize and malinging religions instead use that time in appreciating and knowing the religion that you follow and feel is best for you since you are not doing that you are busy looking at faults of others.........

[Ismaili1000]

Rumi stopped praying namaaz. He said he was always with Allah and every part of his body was in sajda to Allah all the time. I think that that is great 'ta:awil'.

I don't think Rumi understood the Quran better than the prophet (saw), and if the prophet (saw) chose to do sajda and asked his followers to do the same, then I would consider Rumi to be a deviant and not a great taawiler.

@anjami@porus

It is so sad both of you have only heard from here and there and taken the liberty to spread what you like without any authenticity .......anjami do you even know al Sheikh Jalal ud Deen Rumi q.r. ???!!! a man who loved Allah more than any one in his times and died for his beloved lest Allah may not like the way you speak about his faithfull servant al Syed al Akbar Jalal ud Deen followed the Prophet more than many generations that passed away ...........He verily prayed 5 times wrote beutifull books and emphasised and explained the essence of salah both for the body and for the soul i am noting dow a few translations i have selected from a few of his books woe be upon those who do not care to learn and are busy proving themselves closest to God these passage's will be more than enough to let the readers of this forum know wether the Sheikh prayed or not, please respect all cultures and communities believe in what you feel is the best but respect all .......anjami you keep on saying i have researched ??? my teacher told me ?? is this what you have researched ??? you know nothing keep it that way :

Jalal al-Din Rumi calls to the praying person:

“You pray standing as a candle in the niche of a mosque indicating the direction of Mecca. Be wise and know the meaning of the first recitation while beginning prayer as “Allah is Great.” It means: “O our Lord! We sacrifice ourselves in your presence! And by putting our hands to our ears we put everything behind us, and we direct ourselves to You!”
The recitation of ‘Allah is Great’ while beginning prayer is like the recitation of ‘Allah is Great’ while slaughtering a sacrifice. By saying ‘Allah is Great’ while beginning prayer you are supposed to slaughter your sensuality.”

“At that moment your body is like Ishmael and your soul is like Abraham. When your soul says ‘Allah is Great’ your body gets rid of all sensuality and passions. And when you say ‘In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficient, and the Most Merciful’, they get sacrificed.”

“Those who pray stand in line as they would do on the Day of Judgment; they begin to account for their actions and appeal to Allah.”
“Standing in prayer while weeping corresponds to standing before Allah on the Day of Judgment after arising from the grave. Allah will question you and ask: ‘What have you done in your worldly life? What have you earned and what have you brought to Me?’”
“Such questions come to mind in Allah’s presence in prayer.”

“While standing in prayer the servant feels ashamed, and then bows down as he cannot manage to stand because of the shame he feels. While bowing down he glorifies Allah by saying ‘Glory to my Lord, the Great’.”

“Then Allah orders the servant: ‘raise your head and answer the questions!’”

“The servant raises his head ashamedly, but he cannot bear that condition and this time he prostrates.”
“Then he raises his head again, but he cannot bear that condition and he prostrates again.”

“Then Allah says: ‘Raise your head and answer. I will question you about what you have done in your earthly life.’”

“Allah’s Word to him is so forceful that he cannot bear to stand. And therefore he sits with his knees bent. Allah says: ‘I provided you with favor and benefaction, how did you make use of them? Did you return thanks for them? I provided you with material and spiritual wealth; what did you earn with them?

“Then the servant turns his face right; and greets the soul of the Prophet (pbuh) and the angels. And tells them: ‘O masters of the spiritual world! Please intercede with Allah for this poor servant; this poor servant’s feet and dress are.’”

“The Prophet (pbuh) answers to the greeting person: ‘The time for help and comfort is over. It should all have been done in worldly life. You have not performed good deeds there, you have not worshipped, you have wasted your time!’”

“Then the servant turns his face left. He asks for help from his relatives. They answer: ‘Do not ask help from us. Who are we? You are supposed to answer your Lord on your own!’”

“The servant who cannot find help from any side gets disappointed. Having abandoned all hope to find help he resorts to Allah, to seek refuge in Him and opening his hands for prayer.he says: ‘O my Lord! I have abandoned any hope from anybody. You are the First, the Last, and the Unique for the servants to appeal to, and the last to turn to. I seek refuge in Your Eternal Mercy and Compassion.’”
Rumi goes on:
“See these pleasant signs of prayer and be aware of what you would be facing. Gather yourselves together and try to benefit from your prayer both physically and spiritually! Do not put your head like a bird collecting grain on the ground!.. Take heed of the saying of the Prophet: ‘The most wicked thief is the one who steals from prayer.’” (Hakim, Mustadrak, I, 353).
“If one prays in pious reverence and beseeches Allah in awareness of His Love, Allah pays him a compliment saying that ‘I am at your service.’”

The Prophet (pbuh) says about the degrees of prayer in terms of pious reverence:
“Two people pray separately at the same place and at the same time. However, there is so huge a difference between them as between the sky and the earth.” (Ihya).

Therefore, the Qur’an points out that true believers are those who justly do their prayer in pious reverence: “And those who guard (the sacredness) of their worship.” (Al-Maarij 70: 34).

It is again said in the same chapter of the Qur’an:
“Those who remain steadfast to their prayer.” (Al-Maarij 70: 23).

Those who spiritually experienced think that:
“The intent of this verse is to express the spirit of prayer as only an outward manifestation of prayer cannot remain permanently. But it is the spirit that bows down and prostrates. Permanent prayer means remembering Allah all the time.”

Mawlana Jalal al-Din Rumi, also, interprets this verse metaphorically:
“The servant keeps his state at prayer and also afterwards. In this way he spends all his life in pious reverence and decency; and also watches his mouth and soul. This is the way of the lovers of Allah.”
Rumi goes on:

“The prayer that keeps us away from evil acts is done five times a day. Whereas the lovers of Allah always remain in prayer for the love in their soul and the Divine fondness that kindles their lungs does not calm down with praying five-times a day.”

[Ismaili1000]

[porus]

Ismaili1000,

All those explanations about sajda ta'azeem quoting hadith and Quran have been put forward before you by others in this forum. I have considered and rejected them. I will not respond to them again as they can be searched.

Regarding the derivation of the word ta:weel, let me correct myself. It is derived from the same root alif, waaw, laam as awwal, which means one. Allah is also referred to as al-awwal.

ta:aweel is a verbal noun derived from Form II of the verb aala (same root, alif waaw, laam). This verb is awwala (alif, waaw with shadda, laam).

Form I verb aala means to return.
Form II verb awwala means either 'to return' or 'to interpret' and ta:weel is verbal noun from Form II verb.

Thus, ordinarily, without referring to its theological meaning, ta:weel means a Return or an Interpretation.

Now, if someone interpretes some text, you may judge it by applying different adjectives like sahee, daaif etc just as Sunnis apply them to ahadith. For the Shia, all their ahadith are sahee and likewise all their ta:weel are sahee.

If you wish to move this debate forward, you must relate fatimi, tayyibi doctrine of sajda to human beings to Quran and Prophet's commands to human beings. I do not much care what Allah asked angels to do to Adam and whether Nabi Yaqub fell prostate to Nabi Yusuf. The latter is a mis-interpretation of the ayat and I have covered it before. You must justify sajda to humans by invoking Allah's commands to Muslim humans (not to angels) and to Prophet's practice.

By the way I reject all those hadiths about qadam bosi involving Prophet or Ali. You expect me to believe that the Master of Ta:weel, Ali, would kiss anyone's feet? That is preposterous. If it was the other way round, someone kissing Ali's feet, I might momentarily take notice but that too is unacceptable in the light of the Quran as I understand it.

Also, you sound so similar to our earlier participant al Uqul that I suspect that you are him. God knows.

Lastly, I do commend you on the breadth and depth of your knowledge. I am sure we can all learn from it.

[porus]

To summarize Arabic in previous post:

awwal is a noun meaning one and awwala is verb meaning to interpret. The noun ta:weel is derived from awwala, the verb. All are from root alif, waaw, laam.

[Ismaili1000]

To summarize Arabic in previous post:

awwal is a noun meaning one and awwala is verb meaning to interpret. The noun ta:weel is derived from awwala, the verb. All are from root alif, waaw, laam.

@porus "None knows the ‘taweel' of the Qur'an excepting God and those who are well-grounded in knowledge." pleae tell me the meaning of the word taweel in this ayat does it mean as per what u want it to be 'oneness of Quran' or does it mean what the entire Muslim world says 'interpretation of the Quran'

[Ismaili1000]

@porus u mentioned "I do not much care what Allah asked angels to do to Adam and whether Nabi Yaqub fell prostate to Nabi Yusuf. "

If you do not care what Allah asked the angels to do and what the Prophets like Nabi Yaquib did there is nothing more to say my point is proven ...........

[porus]

To summarize Arabic in previous post:

awwal is a noun meaning one and awwala is verb meaning to interpret. The noun ta:weel is derived from awwala, the verb. All are from root alif, waaw, laam.

@porus "None knows the ‘taweel' of the Qur'an excepting God and those who are well-grounded in knowledge." pleae tell me the meaning of the word taweel in this ayat does it mean as per what u want it to be 'oneness of Quran' or does it mean what the entire Muslim world says 'interpretation of the Quran'

You have quoted me out of context. I never said ta:weel means 'oneness of Quran' as you allege.

I have said that interpretation is one meaning of ta:weel. It can also mean discovery, detection, revelation, development, disclosure, explanation and return.

A very important meaning of ta:weel in the Quran is allegory or allegorical interpretation. It also means 'that to which something can be reduced' or 'that which leads to the core or its origin'.

You also quoted a portion of ayat 3:7 out of context. In this ayat the word ta:weel is used twice. The first meaning is allegory and the second is the 'core or final or original meaning'. I would advise that you read Note 5 in Asad's translation of this ayat.

3:7 describes two types of ayat. Those it describes as clear are Umm ul-kitab meaning that, despite variations of interpretation, it admits to just one core meaning. Those it describes as allegorical are those that admit to different allegorical treatments but cannot convey messages that are different from the clear ayats. 'Those who are well versed in knowledge' can apply different allegorical treatments but the 'final' meaning is known only to Allah. Note 'those well veresed in knowledge' cannot claim to know the 'final' meaning. Only Allah knows that.

Finally, I use the word 'ta:weel' to also mean the process of drawing out the original meaning through allegorical interpretation in an attempt to seek nearness to Allah. This leads us to another meaning of the term ta:weel, which means Return, that is seeking to go back to partake of Allah's essence.

[Humsafar]

porus, your post on taawil and the essence of Allah is a real gem, a brilliant synopsis of the human condition. thank you.

[anajmi]

They are in books but the books cannot be revealed to anyone. They are written by du'aat. And the ta:wil is like a jig-saw puzzle spread over many pieces, each piece being located in a separate book. The books are by different authors and they are authored through a special process of 'ilhaam' . the complete view cannot be had by anyone except by a Dai.

porus,

Than you for that wonderful explanation. I have to say though that I am relieved that bohras were not in charge of compiling the Quran after the passing of the prophet (saw)!!

[anajmi]

Kissing hands or feet has nothing to do with Sajda. I kiss my children's hands and feet as well, doesn't mean I am doing sajda to them. As I have explained before, based upon the teachings of revered sunni and shia scholars, Sajda of any type to any human is haraam. Doesn't matter if it involved 6 parts or 7 parts.

'Two Rakaat Nafil in front of Muqam e Ibrahim ( Alaihis salaam )'

This is another misunderstanding amongst Dai worshippers. You are not supposed to say namaaz facing the Muqam e Ibrahim. You are still facing the kaaba but as close to the Muqam as possible. The namaaz you are praying is regular nafil namaaz. The reason you try to get as close to this position is simply because that is where Prophet Ibrahim prayed. Even if the muqam is between you and the kaaba, you are not offering your salaah to the maqam but to kaaba. Have you seen any one praying in front of the maqam but facing away from the kaaba?

[porus]

porus, your post on taawil and the essence of Allah is a real gem, a brilliant synopsis of the human condition. thank you.

Hey Humsafar. Thank you for the compliment. That is quite gratifying. I hope we can all learn from each other.

They are in books but the books cannot be revealed to anyone. They are written by du'aat. And the ta:wil is like a jig-saw puzzle spread over many pieces, each piece being located in a separate book. The books are by different authors and they are authored through a special process of 'ilhaam' . the complete view cannot be had by anyone except by a Dai.

porus,

Than you for that wonderful explanation. I have to say though that I am relieved that bohras were not in charge of compiling the Quran after the passing of the prophet (saw)!!

anajmi, I am glad you thought well of it. That was my take on Ismaili1000's explanation of ta:weel!

[porus]

Even if the muqam is between you and the kaaba, you are not offering your salaah to the maqam but to kaaba. Have you seen any one praying in front of the maqam but facing away from the kaaba?

You are right of course. But a slight correction. You are not offering your salaah to Kaaba but to Allah. You are merely facing the Kaaba as commanded by Allah.

[anajmi]

My mistake. Thank you for correcting me.

[porus]

@porus u mentioned "I do not much care what Allah asked angels to do to Adam and whether Nabi Yaqub fell prostate to Nabi Yusuf. "

If you do not care what Allah asked the angels to do and what the Prophets like Nabi Yaquib did there is nothing more to say my point is proven ...........

Again, you quote me out of context. I meant that what Allah asked angels to do, sujood to Adam, has no bearing on what Allah is asking Muslims to do. I have covered this point in details previously. We have to separate Quranic 'history' from Quranic 'prescription'.

Regarding Nabi Yaqub prostrating to Nabi Yusuf, it is a misinterpretation of the ayat. Refer to Asad's translation of the ayat and his Note on it. Even if we admit, for sake of argument, that Yaqub prostrated before Yusuf, it is Quranic history, not prescription. Allah clearly states in the Quran that sajda to anyone other than Him is not permissible.

[profastian]

Even if the muqam is between you and the kaaba, you are not offering your salaah to the maqam but to kaaba. Have you seen any one praying in front of the maqam but facing away from the kaaba?

You are right of course. But a slight correction. You are not offering your salaah to Kaaba but to Allah. You are merely facing the Kaaba as commanded by Allah.

Why? Why do you have to face Mecca? Did the prophet explain this?

[Muslim First]

Why? Why do you have to face Mecca? Did the prophet explain this?

You do not know this? Are you a muslim?

Here read this what your Ismaili cousins are saying.

Facing Kaba
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... opic&t=858