Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Consider a fart favorite ayah of the Quran. I am quoting only a part of the ayah to use it out of context.
4:34
beat your women.
Do abdes beat their wives and justify it using this ayah? Never. First of all, 99.9% of abdes are probably ignorant of this ayah of the Quran. Secondly, if questioned, they will tell you about the context of the ayah and the conditions surrounding it. It does not apply at all times.
Here is another fart favorite ayah.
9:5
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them,
Do abde idiots do this? Of course not. Again, most abdes probably do not know this ayah. But those that do, will tell you that this command was revealed in the context of war that the prophet (saw) was participating in and came with a lot of conditions. This command does not apply at all times under any context.
That is how you need to study the Quran. Not like blind abdes!!
4:34
beat your women.
Do abdes beat their wives and justify it using this ayah? Never. First of all, 99.9% of abdes are probably ignorant of this ayah of the Quran. Secondly, if questioned, they will tell you about the context of the ayah and the conditions surrounding it. It does not apply at all times.
Here is another fart favorite ayah.
9:5
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them,
Do abde idiots do this? Of course not. Again, most abdes probably do not know this ayah. But those that do, will tell you that this command was revealed in the context of war that the prophet (saw) was participating in and came with a lot of conditions. This command does not apply at all times under any context.
That is how you need to study the Quran. Not like blind abdes!!
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Adam,
Thank you for clarifying your understanding of sujood to humans.
Without going back to the language in the Quran or Kitab ul-Himma, let me summarize.
You are saying that as long as you do not believe or consider the person to whom you perform sajda to be Allah, then Allah permits it.
Furthermore, you consider this sajda to a respected human as showing respect for Allah.
Also, Rasulullah prohibited his followers to do sajda to him because he did not want them to think that he is Allah like the Abyssinians who considered their king to be Allah. (Although, I cannot imagine why Rasulullah’s followers would consider him to be Allah in the first place!)
However, if Rasulullah’s followers did sajda to him, he would permit it as long as they did not consider him to be Allah.
Is the above accurate representation of your belief?
Now, let us consider sajda to non-humans, that is, natural objects like the Sun, the Moon etc. or man-made objects such as idols. I am assuming that you do not believe that you should perform sajda to these non-human objects even if you consider them not to be Allah unlike the Abyssinians or the followers of the Queen of Sheba who performed sujood to the Sun. (However, in their case they did believe the Sun to be Allah).
Is this too an accurate summary of your belief?
Finally, as for sujood to respected humans, do you confine your sujood to Muslims and Bohras in particular, or do you extend it to respected non-Muslims as long as you do not consider them to be Allah? If that is so, you would have no objection to performing sujood to Hindu holy men like Baba Ramdev or Sai Baba. Is that so?
After you have responded to the above and confirmed that this is what you have understood both from the Quran and Kitab ul-Himma, I will get back to the Quran and Kitab ul-Himma regarding sujood, inshallah.
Thank you for clarifying your understanding of sujood to humans.
Without going back to the language in the Quran or Kitab ul-Himma, let me summarize.
You are saying that as long as you do not believe or consider the person to whom you perform sajda to be Allah, then Allah permits it.
Furthermore, you consider this sajda to a respected human as showing respect for Allah.
Also, Rasulullah prohibited his followers to do sajda to him because he did not want them to think that he is Allah like the Abyssinians who considered their king to be Allah. (Although, I cannot imagine why Rasulullah’s followers would consider him to be Allah in the first place!)
However, if Rasulullah’s followers did sajda to him, he would permit it as long as they did not consider him to be Allah.
Is the above accurate representation of your belief?
Now, let us consider sajda to non-humans, that is, natural objects like the Sun, the Moon etc. or man-made objects such as idols. I am assuming that you do not believe that you should perform sajda to these non-human objects even if you consider them not to be Allah unlike the Abyssinians or the followers of the Queen of Sheba who performed sujood to the Sun. (However, in their case they did believe the Sun to be Allah).
Is this too an accurate summary of your belief?
Finally, as for sujood to respected humans, do you confine your sujood to Muslims and Bohras in particular, or do you extend it to respected non-Muslims as long as you do not consider them to be Allah? If that is so, you would have no objection to performing sujood to Hindu holy men like Baba Ramdev or Sai Baba. Is that so?
After you have responded to the above and confirmed that this is what you have understood both from the Quran and Kitab ul-Himma, I will get back to the Quran and Kitab ul-Himma regarding sujood, inshallah.
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Adam,
Some more points for you to consider, even though I believe that I have previously covered most them.
The copy of Kitabul Himma that I have was published by Doctor Muhammad Kamil Husain. I am not sure where or when it was published, although it could be Beirut or Cairo early to middle of 20th century.
Murtaza’s excerpt at the beginning of this thread missed out several lines from the previous page (104) at the start of Chapter 8. The missing parts are follows:
(8)
ذكر الاداب في السلام على الائمة و الكلام بين أيدهم
تعظيم الائمة من تعظيم الله، إنه إن ما يراد من تعظيمهم طاعته و يبتغى فيه مرضاته لا شريك له، و قد رأينا أوصياءهم و ولاة عهودهم يقبلون الارض في سلام عليهم بين أيدهم إجلالا لهم و علما بقدرهم و معروفة بما أوجب الله لهم
I have corrected the word underlined above because I believe that the word in Murtaza’s rendition ‘yatbaloona’ is another typo. It should be 'yaqbaloona'.
The translation of the above is:
(8)
The account of the manners of greeting the Imams and speaking in front of them.
"Respect of Imams (is) in the Glorification of God; the intention being that in respecting the Imams is God’s obedience and the desire for God’s pleasure, not making them (the Imams) partners with God; (thus) their executers and friends have given us their opinion in that they kiss the earth while greeting the Imam and that is in accordance with their knowledge of what God has enjoined upon them."
Thus ‘kissing of the ground’ in front of the Imams is established as a protocol for greeting them.
Later in the chapter it is mentioned that some objected to the practice because it appeared to be sujood-like. Qadi Noman says that “In truth, sujood is not the kissing of the ground” (و للسجود حقيقة هي غير تقبيل الارض).
Finally, Qadi Noman says that:
على أنا لم تقل إنا نسجد للائمة و لا أنهم أمروأ صلوات الله عليهم بلسجود لهم
" I did not say that we perform sujood to Imams nor that they ordered us to bless them with sujood to them. But it is the kissing of the earth in front of him (that we perform)."
My conclusion is that Qadi Noman is making a distinction between sujood and taqbeel al-ard (kissing of the ground). and that it is the latter that he is recommending.
Could you please point out error in my translation or in my interpretation?
Some more points for you to consider, even though I believe that I have previously covered most them.
The copy of Kitabul Himma that I have was published by Doctor Muhammad Kamil Husain. I am not sure where or when it was published, although it could be Beirut or Cairo early to middle of 20th century.
Murtaza’s excerpt at the beginning of this thread missed out several lines from the previous page (104) at the start of Chapter 8. The missing parts are follows:
(8)
ذكر الاداب في السلام على الائمة و الكلام بين أيدهم
تعظيم الائمة من تعظيم الله، إنه إن ما يراد من تعظيمهم طاعته و يبتغى فيه مرضاته لا شريك له، و قد رأينا أوصياءهم و ولاة عهودهم يقبلون الارض في سلام عليهم بين أيدهم إجلالا لهم و علما بقدرهم و معروفة بما أوجب الله لهم
I have corrected the word underlined above because I believe that the word in Murtaza’s rendition ‘yatbaloona’ is another typo. It should be 'yaqbaloona'.
The translation of the above is:
(8)
The account of the manners of greeting the Imams and speaking in front of them.
"Respect of Imams (is) in the Glorification of God; the intention being that in respecting the Imams is God’s obedience and the desire for God’s pleasure, not making them (the Imams) partners with God; (thus) their executers and friends have given us their opinion in that they kiss the earth while greeting the Imam and that is in accordance with their knowledge of what God has enjoined upon them."
Thus ‘kissing of the ground’ in front of the Imams is established as a protocol for greeting them.
Later in the chapter it is mentioned that some objected to the practice because it appeared to be sujood-like. Qadi Noman says that “In truth, sujood is not the kissing of the ground” (و للسجود حقيقة هي غير تقبيل الارض).
Finally, Qadi Noman says that:
على أنا لم تقل إنا نسجد للائمة و لا أنهم أمروأ صلوات الله عليهم بلسجود لهم
" I did not say that we perform sujood to Imams nor that they ordered us to bless them with sujood to them. But it is the kissing of the earth in front of him (that we perform)."
My conclusion is that Qadi Noman is making a distinction between sujood and taqbeel al-ard (kissing of the ground). and that it is the latter that he is recommending.
Could you please point out error in my translation or in my interpretation?
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
anajmi,
thanks for enlightening us...
Adam buddy,
I'm waiting for your reply
thanks for enlightening us...
Adam buddy,
I'm waiting for your reply
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
@anajmi
Well, the story does tell us what the family of Yusuf AS did. They gave Sajdo to Yusuf. If you read the paragraph in Kitab al Himmah, it goes on to further say that even Yaqoob AS also gave sajdo to Yusuf AS. Syedna Noman RA straight away says, "Yaqub AS was a Nabi, and being a Nabi, he wouldn't have done anything wrong".
(Please read that paragraph, it will clarify the debate.)
Now, the Quran relates to this story, it doesn't DIRECTLY command us on the deed. BUT, the stories in the Quran are not mere stories, they are ways of guidance on how to follow in their foot steps, we must do as they did.
The Quran says :
لقد كان في قصصهم عبرة لاولي الالباب...
قد كان لكم فيهم اسوة حسنة
If you read the Fatimi Ismaili esoteric meaning of this particular verse and story, you will understand what is really meant (According to our beliefs). I cannot disclose it at this time.
Yes the Prophet has told us to respect our parents, but Sajdo to them is not permissible. Syedna Qazi Noman clearly states that the Sajdo is for a wali from Awliya Allah (ie The Leader of the time thus, a HUMAN - according to their guidance). Not any random person no matter how much we respect them. It is all under the guidance of the Sahab al Zamaan (Leader of the time).
Please read the Paragraph from Himmah again. The Abyssinians (who were Majoos) (NOT MUSLIM FOLLOWERS) were the ones giving Sajdo to their King (considering him God). The Prophet wasn't telling THEM, rather he was telling his Muslim followers not to do as THEY did.
The text is
فنهى النبي عن الاقتداء بهم
Translation : Nabi SAW prohibited (his folowers - from the Habashah people, or maybe others) to do as the Abyssinians did.
@Porus
Yes, but not ANY person.
Syedna Qazi Noman clearly states that the Sajdo is for a wali from Awliya Allah (ie The Leader of the time thus, a HUMAN - according to their guidance). Not any random person no matter how much we respect them. It is all under the guidance of the Sahab al Zamaan (Leader of the time).
Read above, I clarified that the people giving the Sajdo were not his followers, rather he was telling his followers NOT to follow suit.
Yes, that is the Fatimi Ismali Dawoodi Bohra belief. (Syedna Qazi Noman RA)
Yes, but only under Guidance of our leaders.
Fatimi Ismali Dawoodi Bohra belief is to even pray towards the Ka'ba (sajdo included), even though it is an object (man made). Syedna Moiyed Shiraazi RA has referred to this in his poetic verses.
This is incorrect.
We don't give Sajdo to ANY human as stated above. I repeat a part I said above :
"Syedna Qazi Noman clearly states that the Sajdo is for a wali from Awliya Allah (ie The Leader of the time thus, a HUMAN - according to their guidance). Not any random person no matter how much we respect them. It is all under the guidance of the Sahab al Zamaan (Leader of the time)."
Thanks, good observation. I checked with my version. It is correct
Yes he clarified the difference. Yes it may seem he is recommending "Taqbeel al Ard".
But in line 7-8 he also says that "Furthermore, if a person gives SAJDO to a wali from Awliya-Allah, with Tazeem to Allah, it is NOT wrong."
Syedna Noman RA has carefully distinguished between the two. And has permitted both. He maybe talking about the "Taqbeel al Ard" more, but he's definitely permitted both.
Question : It is OUR (Dawoodi Bohra) belief that he has permitted BOTH.
BUT, if we leave the Sajda aside, do you have a problem with "Taqbeel al Ard" in front of the wali from Awliya-Allah ie (Saheb az Zamaan)?
@anajmi
The Ayahs where the Quran talks about wife beating and killing of Infidels.
Yes, they are ayats in the Quran and they mean what is said.
Many enemies of Islam use these ayats against the Quran. They have not fully understood it's correct context.
I agree, it MUST be read in context and understand the rules and ways of how Islam has taught of its means & methods. If you read the Fatimi Ismaili interpretation, it should be clear, especially when it comes to War, there are rules, and the Imam should only permit this and there are also exceptions. There MUST be a leader. He must guide us towards the correct meaning of the verses in the Quran.
If I may repeat what I said earlier as it is connected to what I just said above :
This keen interest anajmi & porus are showing in Syedna Qazi Noman RA : does that mean you'll consider him a authentic source of belief?
If I may repeat my same burning question:
What is the base of your religion? Who is your leader? After the Quran Majeed what texts do you use as guidance?
The other kind of sajda is from a human to a human. This kind of sajda is haraam.
The story of Yusuf in the Quran allows it.
It does not allow it. It is narrating the story of Yusuf (as).
Well, the story does tell us what the family of Yusuf AS did. They gave Sajdo to Yusuf. If you read the paragraph in Kitab al Himmah, it goes on to further say that even Yaqoob AS also gave sajdo to Yusuf AS. Syedna Noman RA straight away says, "Yaqub AS was a Nabi, and being a Nabi, he wouldn't have done anything wrong".
(Please read that paragraph, it will clarify the debate.)
Now, the Quran relates to this story, it doesn't DIRECTLY command us on the deed. BUT, the stories in the Quran are not mere stories, they are ways of guidance on how to follow in their foot steps, we must do as they did.
The Quran says :
لقد كان في قصصهم عبرة لاولي الالباب...
قد كان لكم فيهم اسوة حسنة
Allah narrates the story of Musa (as) and Khidr (as) where Khidr killed people who hadn't committed any crime yet. Does that mean killing people before they commit a crime is allowed? Which moron is teaching you the Quran?
If you read the Fatimi Ismaili esoteric meaning of this particular verse and story, you will understand what is really meant (According to our beliefs). I cannot disclose it at this time.
One other question I have asked abdes before but didn't receive an answer. How many times have you performed this sajda of respect to your parents. Respect for the parents is a command of Allah in the Quran. But I guarantee it that none of you abde idiots do this sajda to your parents.
Yes the Prophet has told us to respect our parents, but Sajdo to them is not permissible. Syedna Qazi Noman clearly states that the Sajdo is for a wali from Awliya Allah (ie The Leader of the time thus, a HUMAN - according to their guidance). Not any random person no matter how much we respect them. It is all under the guidance of the Sahab al Zamaan (Leader of the time).
The Prophet showed WHY he forbade the Abyssinians, because they did not believe in Allah (as stated above).
Now that is an idiotic statement. If they didn't believe in Allah, then why would they listen to the prophet of Allah? Only the believers listen to the prophet (saw). And you abdes do not!!
Please read the Paragraph from Himmah again. The Abyssinians (who were Majoos) (NOT MUSLIM FOLLOWERS) were the ones giving Sajdo to their King (considering him God). The Prophet wasn't telling THEM, rather he was telling his Muslim followers not to do as THEY did.
The text is
فنهى النبي عن الاقتداء بهم
Translation : Nabi SAW prohibited (his folowers - from the Habashah people, or maybe others) to do as the Abyssinians did.
@Porus
You are saying that as long as you do not believe or consider the person to whom you perform sajda to be Allah, then Allah permits it.
Yes, but not ANY person.
Syedna Qazi Noman clearly states that the Sajdo is for a wali from Awliya Allah (ie The Leader of the time thus, a HUMAN - according to their guidance). Not any random person no matter how much we respect them. It is all under the guidance of the Sahab al Zamaan (Leader of the time).
Also, Rasulullah prohibited his followers to do sajda to him because he did not want them to think that he is Allah like the Abyssinians who considered their king to be Allah. (Although, I cannot imagine why Rasulullah’s followers would consider him to be Allah in the first place!)
Read above, I clarified that the people giving the Sajdo were not his followers, rather he was telling his followers NOT to follow suit.
However, if Rasulullah’s followers did sajda to him, he would permit it as long as they did not consider him to be Allah.
Yes, that is the Fatimi Ismali Dawoodi Bohra belief. (Syedna Qazi Noman RA)
Now, let us consider sajda to non-humans, that is, natural objects like the Sun, the Moon etc. or man-made objects such as idols. I am assuming that you do not believe that you should perform sajda to these non-human objects even if you consider them not to be Allah unlike the Abyssinians or the followers of the Queen of Sheba who performed sujood to the Sun. (However, in their case they did believe the Sun to be Allah).
Yes, but only under Guidance of our leaders.
Fatimi Ismali Dawoodi Bohra belief is to even pray towards the Ka'ba (sajdo included), even though it is an object (man made). Syedna Moiyed Shiraazi RA has referred to this in his poetic verses.
Finally, as for sujood to respected humans, do you confine your sujood to Muslims and Bohras in particular, or do you extend it to respected non-Muslims as long as you do not consider them to be Allah? If that is so, you would have no objection to performing sujood to Hindu holy men like Baba Ramdev or Sai Baba. Is that so?
This is incorrect.
We don't give Sajdo to ANY human as stated above. I repeat a part I said above :
"Syedna Qazi Noman clearly states that the Sajdo is for a wali from Awliya Allah (ie The Leader of the time thus, a HUMAN - according to their guidance). Not any random person no matter how much we respect them. It is all under the guidance of the Sahab al Zamaan (Leader of the time)."
I have corrected the word underlined above because I believe that the word in Murtaza’s rendition ‘yatbaloona’ is another typo. It should be 'yaqbaloona'.
Thanks, good observation. I checked with my version. It is correct
My conclusion is that Qadi Noman is making a distinction between sujood and taqbeel al-ard (kissing of the ground). and that it is the latter that he is recommending.
Yes he clarified the difference. Yes it may seem he is recommending "Taqbeel al Ard".
But in line 7-8 he also says that "Furthermore, if a person gives SAJDO to a wali from Awliya-Allah, with Tazeem to Allah, it is NOT wrong."
Syedna Noman RA has carefully distinguished between the two. And has permitted both. He maybe talking about the "Taqbeel al Ard" more, but he's definitely permitted both.
Question : It is OUR (Dawoodi Bohra) belief that he has permitted BOTH.
BUT, if we leave the Sajda aside, do you have a problem with "Taqbeel al Ard" in front of the wali from Awliya-Allah ie (Saheb az Zamaan)?
@anajmi
The Ayahs where the Quran talks about wife beating and killing of Infidels.
Yes, they are ayats in the Quran and they mean what is said.
Many enemies of Islam use these ayats against the Quran. They have not fully understood it's correct context.
I agree, it MUST be read in context and understand the rules and ways of how Islam has taught of its means & methods. If you read the Fatimi Ismaili interpretation, it should be clear, especially when it comes to War, there are rules, and the Imam should only permit this and there are also exceptions. There MUST be a leader. He must guide us towards the correct meaning of the verses in the Quran.
If I may repeat what I said earlier as it is connected to what I just said above :
This keen interest anajmi & porus are showing in Syedna Qazi Noman RA : does that mean you'll consider him a authentic source of belief?
If I may repeat my same burning question:
What is the base of your religion? Who is your leader? After the Quran Majeed what texts do you use as guidance?
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Good now we are getting somewhere. The Quran does not command you to do sajda DIRECTLY. So now that that is out of the way, we should look at the command that the Quran does give DIRECTLY. It commands you DIRECTLY not to sajda to anything other than Allah.Now, the Quran relates to this story, it doesn't DIRECTLY command us on the deed.
Just like the story of Musa (as) and Khidr (as). The Quran doesn't DIRECTLY command you to kill innocents before they commit a crime even though Khidr (as) did that, but it does DIRECTLY command you to never kill an innocent human being.
He He He He He. Why am I not surprised? Your beliefs have been exposed as idiotic more than a few times on this board. You do not need to disclose what you believe. It is apparent!!If you read the Fatimi Ismaili esoteric meaning of this particular verse and story, you will understand what is really meant (According to our beliefs). I cannot disclose it at this time.
Good, so the sajda that you do is not the sajda of respect but a different sajda. Let us call it sajda-e-awliya or sajda-e-wali. As you can see, slowly but surely, your beliefs and your claims are being exposed.Yes the Prophet has told us to respect our parents, but Sajdo to them is not permissible.
Actually, if you look at my posts, you will not find me quoting Syedna Qazi Noman. I am not interested in what he has to say. Just like you have invented ways of worshipping your idols, Qazi Noman invented ways to worship his idols. There is no need to kiss the earth for any human being. The prophet (saw) has made this clear. The prophet (saw) has stated in his hadith that a person who is sitting shouldn't stand up while giving salaam to the one who is standing even if the one who is standing is a king. The prophet (saw) never allowed anyone to kiss the earth when approaching him. And neither did Hazrat Ali. And your Dai is nothing compared to either of those two and neither are any Imams/rulers that came after them.This keen interest anajmi & porus are showing in Syedna Qazi Noman RA
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Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Really ? Which Hadith did he write ?The prophet (saw) has stated in his hadith
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Actually, he just stated it. Someone else wrote it down.
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Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
So he dictated "his Hadith" ?
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Unfortunately, understanding hadith, how they were captured, who captured them, their authenticity etc is beyond the understanding of those who are mentally retarded. Stick to 4:34 for a few more years and let this discussion continue without your farts.
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Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Did he dictate "his Hadith" ?Anajmi wrote:Actually, he just stated it. Someone else wrote it down.
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Adam,
Having said that, I have decided to subject differences in beliefs among various Muslim sects solely on the basis of the Quran. I will try to understand the Quran by myself with the help of over 1400 years of scholarship that is available to us but not confined to one sect alone.
Having answered those questions, I am interested at this point in my life to understand the basis of current Bohra beliefs as they are laid out in their 'authentic' books. In particular, I am studying Kitabul Himma at present but I find its language, which is archaic, a bit difficult to understand. I find its classical sentence structures to be very different from Modern Standard Arabic.
You appear to be well-versed in classical Arabic. I would like your help in translating some sentences of Kitabul Himma. If you agree, we could do this through exchange of private messages on this board. In the meanwhile, could you translate this sentence from the extract that Murtaza published at the start of this thread? Thank you.
فأتباعهم أحق من اقتدى في ذلك بهم و يتقرب الي الله بتعظيم أوليائه غير مستنكفين و لا مستكبرين عنه
I think it says:
"So, pursuant to them (that is their kissing earth in salutation for Imams), the more deserving among those who followed it (that is kissing the earth in salutation of Imams) themselves, approaches God through the practice of (this form of) ta'azeem of his awliya. These (followers) were not rejectors of the practice nor were they arrogant."
I have another question for you. Was Kitabul Himma commissioned by a Fatimid Imam or was it written at Wadi Noiman;s own initiative?
I consider Qadi Noman to be an authentic source of his, that is, Qazi Noman's beliefs. To what extent are these beliefs held to be true by Bohra divines and their followers today is a question I am unsure about. The only authentic source of my belief is me. If I adopt off-the-shelf belief system such as Islam in any of its sectarian variants, then it becomes mine and I would be solely responsible for it.Adam wrote:
If I may repeat what I said earlier as it is connected to what I just said above :
This keen interest anajmi & porus are showing in Syedna Qazi Noman RA : does that mean you'll consider him a authentic source of belief?
Having said that, I have decided to subject differences in beliefs among various Muslim sects solely on the basis of the Quran. I will try to understand the Quran by myself with the help of over 1400 years of scholarship that is available to us but not confined to one sect alone.
I do not subscribe to any religion. I do not follow any leader all the time but may choose to follow different leaders at different times. I subject the Quran to same critical scrutiny as any other book. I am sympathetic to the Shia view of succession of Ali to Imamat and Khilafat. But I am not emotionally tied up to history like a devoted Bohra is. As far as other books after the Quran are concerned, my interests range far and wide and are very eclectic. I am much more invested in 'spiritual' as opposed to 'religious' mode of life. One of the persons I admire most is Neale Donald Walsch and I devour his 'Coversations with God' series of books.Adam wrote:
If I may repeat my same burning question:
What is the base of your religion? Who is your leader? After the Quran Majeed what texts do you use as guidance?[/b]
Having answered those questions, I am interested at this point in my life to understand the basis of current Bohra beliefs as they are laid out in their 'authentic' books. In particular, I am studying Kitabul Himma at present but I find its language, which is archaic, a bit difficult to understand. I find its classical sentence structures to be very different from Modern Standard Arabic.
You appear to be well-versed in classical Arabic. I would like your help in translating some sentences of Kitabul Himma. If you agree, we could do this through exchange of private messages on this board. In the meanwhile, could you translate this sentence from the extract that Murtaza published at the start of this thread? Thank you.
فأتباعهم أحق من اقتدى في ذلك بهم و يتقرب الي الله بتعظيم أوليائه غير مستنكفين و لا مستكبرين عنه
I think it says:
"So, pursuant to them (that is their kissing earth in salutation for Imams), the more deserving among those who followed it (that is kissing the earth in salutation of Imams) themselves, approaches God through the practice of (this form of) ta'azeem of his awliya. These (followers) were not rejectors of the practice nor were they arrogant."
I have another question for you. Was Kitabul Himma commissioned by a Fatimid Imam or was it written at Wadi Noiman;s own initiative?
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
The last sentence in the previous post should be read as:
"I have another question for you. Was Kitabul Himma commissioned by a Fatimid Imam or was it written at Qadi Noman's own initiative?"
"I have another question for you. Was Kitabul Himma commissioned by a Fatimid Imam or was it written at Qadi Noman's own initiative?"
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
. Now, that translation is a bit of mouthful. Too cumbersome!!porus wrote:Adam,
You appear to be well-versed in classical Arabic. I would like your help in translating some sentences of Kitabul Himma. If you agree, we could do this through exchange of private messages on this board. In the meanwhile, could you translate this sentence from the extract that Murtaza published at the start of this thread? Thank you.
فأتباعهم أحق من اقتدى في ذلك بهم و يتقرب الي الله بتعظيم أوليائه غير مستنكفين و لا مستكبرين عنه
I think it says:
"So, pursuant to them (that is their kissing earth in salutation for Imams), the more deserving among those who followed it (that is kissing the earth in salutation of Imams) themselves, approaches God through the practice of (this form of) ta'azeem of his awliya. These (followers) were not rejectors of the practice nor were they arrogant."
Let me simplify it:
فأتباعهم أحق من اقتدى في ذلك بهم و يتقرب الي الله بتعظيم أوليائه غير مستنكفين و لا مستكبرين عنه
"So, in pursuant to them, the more deserving of Imam's followers kiss the earth in salutation to Imams. Through this form of respect (ta'azeem) to their awliya, they seek to be close to God. Thus, they were neither among those who rejected it (this practise) nor were they arrogant."
What do you think?
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Thank you for clearly articulating your views, Adam. You have stated that sajda to anyone or anything other than Allah is only for one or several human beings whom the 'saheb uz-zamaan' nominates. My observation is that Bohras do not currently 'kiss the ground' before the Dai or anyone else but that they do perfom sujood to Dai and members of his family. As far as prostrating to Kaaba is concerned, your view is incorrect. It is not to Kaaba that Muslims prostrate but to Allah. Kaaba is only a Qibla, a direction that Allah has commanded Muslims to face when performing prostration only to Him and to no one else.Adam wrote:
My conclusion is that Qadi Noman is making a distinction between sujood and taqbeel al-ard (kissing of the ground). and that it is the latter that he is recommending.
Yes he clarified the difference. Yes it may seem he is recommending "Taqbeel al Ard".
But in line 7-8 he also says that "Furthermore, if a person gives SAJDO to a wali from Awliya-Allah, with Tazeem to Allah, it is NOT wrong."
Syedna Noman RA has carefully distinguished between the two. And has permitted both. He maybe talking about the "Taqbeel al Ard" more, but he's definitely permitted both.
Question : It is OUR (Dawoodi Bohra) belief that he has permitted BOTH.
BUT, if we leave the Sajda aside, do you have a problem with "Taqbeel al Ard" in front of the wali from Awliya-Allah ie (Saheb az Zamaan)?
As far as sajda is concerned, it boils down to how one translates the words "lam yakun dhalika bi-munkar". I translate it as "it was not considered as undesirable". You translate it as "it is not considered undesirable". In standard Arabic, I believe that my translation is more correct. It refers to past practise not considered desirable any more by Qadi Noman in his time.
So, Qadi Noman refers to past practise and goes on to say that Prophet did not allow, in fact forbade, Muslims to perform sajda to himself. There is no mention here about taqbeel al-ard (kissing of ground) before the Prophet.
Therefore, my conclusion, in keeping with tawheed of the Quran, is that neither sajda to Prophet nor kissing of earth before Prophet is allowed by Qadi Noman. I will continue investigating this issue in Himma and other Qadi Noman's books.
As far as 'kissing the earth' is concerned, it appears to be an innovation by Qadi Noman and does not have any sanction in the Quran or practices of Prophet, Wasi, pre-Fatimid or even Fatimid Imams.
So, I can safely say that Bohras today have misinterpreted Himma in performing sajda to Dai and members of his family. If their justification is Himma, then it is incorrect.
Personally, I would not object to taqbeel al-ard for the Dai just like I do not object to 'aarti' to him. But neither of these are Islamic practises approved by Quran or Prophet. Taqbeel is Qadi Noman's innovation. Sujood for a human is different. I object to it because I believe that the Quran forbids it.
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
I have this theory..
Since Syedna Saheb has announced many time in his speech, that he is an angel.. and just maybe, the abdes are taught in the their secret sabak, that they are angels too and it's ok for them to give sajda to the Dai
Since Syedna Saheb has announced many time in his speech, that he is an angel.. and just maybe, the abdes are taught in the their secret sabak, that they are angels too and it's ok for them to give sajda to the Dai
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Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Brother Porus,
I do agree with you that Qadi Noman is differentiating between Taqbeel al Arad and Sajda. However, a common bohra doesn’t go in details and I bet few in millions bothers about that. It is good to have people like you, adam and Ismaili on this forum who has quest for knowledge and because of you people other readers of this forum getting some knowledge. I must admit that I have learned a lot from you.
I am sending you the scan version of Majalis Masayraat today. I am still working on scanning some other books which is quite time consuming. However if you need any particular book let me know so I can send it with priority. Other books in this regards could be100 majalis of Moyyad Shirazi (five volumes). I have done some 50% of that and would forward you soon.
Regards.
I do agree with you that Qadi Noman is differentiating between Taqbeel al Arad and Sajda. However, a common bohra doesn’t go in details and I bet few in millions bothers about that. It is good to have people like you, adam and Ismaili on this forum who has quest for knowledge and because of you people other readers of this forum getting some knowledge. I must admit that I have learned a lot from you.
I am sending you the scan version of Majalis Masayraat today. I am still working on scanning some other books which is quite time consuming. However if you need any particular book let me know so I can send it with priority. Other books in this regards could be100 majalis of Moyyad Shirazi (five volumes). I have done some 50% of that and would forward you soon.
Regards.
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
I second Hussain_KSA. Really great argument and counter arguments happening here and the style of dialogue is exemplary. Calm, Composed, no name calling and not abusive. I pray it remains that way, except for some off the cuff and not relevant remarks by other boarders. You know who you are.
Wassalam
Wassalam
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Brs. Hussain and DMY,
Thank you for your inputs. I too value contributions by Adam and Ismaili and I hope that they continue their discussions. Only, I prefer not to challenge anyone to state their faith and belief which can be judged from their posts. I am against inquisitorial attitude favored by religiously oriented people throughout history.
This is the only forum where Bohras can discuss their faith in a critical fashion. Criticism is a two-edged sword. It can weaken faith or strengthen it. Avoiding criticism out of fear is rendering personal disservice to the only valid goal of life and that is being true to oneself.
Br Hussain, you have already previously sent me kitab al-majaalis wa_l-musaayaraat. Thank you for repeating the :irsaal. I look forward to receiving other books and Shirazi's majaalis would be a very welcome addition to my library.
I wondered if you have Qadi Noman's Iftitah (kitab iftitaH ad-da'wa wa :ibtita'a_d-dawla). If you do, please send it to me. That would supplement kitab ul-himma well, I think.
Thank you for your inputs. I too value contributions by Adam and Ismaili and I hope that they continue their discussions. Only, I prefer not to challenge anyone to state their faith and belief which can be judged from their posts. I am against inquisitorial attitude favored by religiously oriented people throughout history.
This is the only forum where Bohras can discuss their faith in a critical fashion. Criticism is a two-edged sword. It can weaken faith or strengthen it. Avoiding criticism out of fear is rendering personal disservice to the only valid goal of life and that is being true to oneself.
Br Hussain, you have already previously sent me kitab al-majaalis wa_l-musaayaraat. Thank you for repeating the :irsaal. I look forward to receiving other books and Shirazi's majaalis would be a very welcome addition to my library.
I wondered if you have Qadi Noman's Iftitah (kitab iftitaH ad-da'wa wa :ibtita'a_d-dawla). If you do, please send it to me. That would supplement kitab ul-himma well, I think.
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Thank you for all your time and effort.
@anajmi
@porus
Anajmi seems to have a hardcore anti Ismail Fatimi Dawoodi Bohra belief. I don't have much joy/interest in conversing with him.
Porus, I respect your views, and your current endeavor to study the Bohra sect. Although, according to our belief, even a "Shia" belief must have a physical leader in todays times. But that's a whole new chapter. Syedna Qazi Nomand dedicated most of his work in proving the necessity of a leader for every age with a constant continuity. We stand by this simple but extremely important belief, and this is the simple reason there are differences today. Those with a leader, and those without.
Since you'll both have nothing to do with Fatimi Ismaili Dawoodi Bohra belief (so you'll aren't Progressives also - if that were even a justified sect), and we don't have any common ground to discuss, there's really no point going further. I'll just answer what I think is necessary and rest my case.
@anajmi
I don't know whom you are observing, but no true Dawoodi Bohra gives Sajda to his parents.
Yeah, the last sentence is okay, It just means that the followers carried out this deed (kissing the earth) without having takabbur & istinkaaf (ie with acceptance & obedience)
He was commisioned by his "teacher" as mentioned in the introduction.
Yes, I said they do both. Kiss the earth sometimes & perfrom sujood at times. Both are practiced. Syedna Qazi Noman says both are allowed. (Line 7-8). That is our belief.
I disagree. It is a general sentence for all times. The verb maybe in the past because of the word لم but it's very general. For example, if I said "if I rocked a child, he wouldn't cry". (I'm not sure if that's the best example), basically, even though "rocked" and "wouldn't" are considered passed tenses, it's actually a general sentence of an action that is followed today. It's just a figure of speech.
So, I repeat, considering the person Allah and giving Sajda is wrong. To a Human it is allowed The Quran (Surah Yusuf) and Syedna Noman RA approves it (according to our belief) in guidance with the leader of our time.
Syedna Qazi Noman may not "have any sanction in the Quran or practices of Prophet, Wasi, pre-Fatimid or even Fatimid Imams". His works are a compilation of what he was told by his Imam, with his permission @ guidance (he states that in almost all of his books), and/with documentation from the Imams of the past. He is just compiling it. Thus we, the Bohras (as per the guidance of our Syedna TUS - who is a Fatimi Dai) use his works as a foundation to our belief.
I vehemently disagree. We practice exactly what he documented. He belived in the Leader of his time, we too. It is the same dawat, same rules, same everything. I have stated what we believe in. Quran and Line 7-8 (I really don't mean to harp on these things, but that's all that needs to be said, I believe!)
I don't agree with the words "aarti" and "innovation" you have used.
I cannot do more than respect/accept your views & beliefs, as you must reciprocate for ours.
@anajmi
Believe all you want. It is the Ismaili Fatimid Dawoodi Bohra belief, not to disclose esoteric taweel meanings without permission to anyone, especially non believers. This has been a practice from the earliest of ages, and many of OUR texts emphasize on it. For example, we believe in the following:
لا تلقوا الجواهر الى الكلاب
"Do not throw Jewels in front of dogs" - (for the will never be able to understand its value).
So, whether you like it or not, I cannot/will not disclose.
I appreciate porus comment in this manner. He seems like a better/ more mature human and intellectual than you. He said:
If I may conclude. The argument was fruitful.
We all knew (at least I did) that at the end of the day, nothing was going to change in anyones minds, and I accepted that. Whatever is in Allah will.
I too am not the type who likes to pick or answer and argument. I only responded/will respond (in the future), if I feel that that the Dawoodi Bohra beliefs are being completely distorted.
I do not by any means consider myself to be an authority on the Dawoodi Bohra belief, (Important note: to the distortion loving people out there), I can only speak of what I know.
واسلام
@anajmi
Actually, if you look at my posts, you will not find me quoting Syedna Qazi Noman. I am not interested in what he has to say. Just like you have invented ways of worshipping your idols, Qazi Noman invented ways to worship his idols.
@porus
I do not subscribe to any religion. I do not follow any leader all the time but may choose to follow different leaders at different times. I subject the Quran to same critical scrutiny as any other book. I am sympathetic to the Shia view of succession of Ali to Imamat and Khilafat. But I am not emotionally tied up to history like a devoted Bohra is.....Having answered those questions, I am interested at this point in my life to understand the basis of current Bohra beliefs as they are laid out in their 'authentic' books....
Anajmi seems to have a hardcore anti Ismail Fatimi Dawoodi Bohra belief. I don't have much joy/interest in conversing with him.
Porus, I respect your views, and your current endeavor to study the Bohra sect. Although, according to our belief, even a "Shia" belief must have a physical leader in todays times. But that's a whole new chapter. Syedna Qazi Nomand dedicated most of his work in proving the necessity of a leader for every age with a constant continuity. We stand by this simple but extremely important belief, and this is the simple reason there are differences today. Those with a leader, and those without.
Since you'll both have nothing to do with Fatimi Ismaili Dawoodi Bohra belief (so you'll aren't Progressives also - if that were even a justified sect), and we don't have any common ground to discuss, there's really no point going further. I'll just answer what I think is necessary and rest my case.
@anajmi
Yes the Prophet has told us to respect our parents, but Sajdo to them is not permissible.
Good, so the sajda that you do is not the sajda of respect but a different sajda. Let us call it sajda-e-awliya or sajda-e-wali. As you can see, slowly but surely, your beliefs and your claims are being exposed.
I don't know whom you are observing, but no true Dawoodi Bohra gives Sajda to his parents.
فأتباعهم أحق من اقتدى في ذلك بهم و يتقرب الي الله بتعظيم أوليائه غير مستنكفين و لا مستكبرين عنه
"So, in pursuant to them, the more deserving of Imam's followers kiss the earth in salutation to Imams. Through this form of respect (ta'azeem) to their awliya, they seek to be close to God. Thus, they were neither among those who rejected it (this practise) nor were they arrogant."
Yeah, the last sentence is okay, It just means that the followers carried out this deed (kissing the earth) without having takabbur & istinkaaf (ie with acceptance & obedience)
I have another question for you. Was Kitabul Himma commissioned by a Fatimid Imam or was it written at Wadi Noiman;s own initiative?
He was commisioned by his "teacher" as mentioned in the introduction.
@porus
Thank you for clearly articulating your views, Adam. You have stated that sajda to anyone or anything other than Allah is only for one or several human beings whom the 'saheb uz-zamaan' nominates. My observation is that Bohras do not currently 'kiss the ground' before the Dai or anyone else but that they do perfom sujood.
Yes, I said they do both. Kiss the earth sometimes & perfrom sujood at times. Both are practiced. Syedna Qazi Noman says both are allowed. (Line 7-8). That is our belief.
As far as sajda is concerned, it boils down to how one translates the words "lam yakun dhalika bi-munkar". I translate it as "it was not considered as undesirable". You translate it as "it is not considered undesirable". In standard Arabic, I believe that my translation is more correct. It refers to past practise not considered desirable any more by Qadi Noman in his time.
I disagree. It is a general sentence for all times. The verb maybe in the past because of the word لم but it's very general. For example, if I said "if I rocked a child, he wouldn't cry". (I'm not sure if that's the best example), basically, even though "rocked" and "wouldn't" are considered passed tenses, it's actually a general sentence of an action that is followed today. It's just a figure of speech.
So, I repeat, considering the person Allah and giving Sajda is wrong. To a Human it is allowed The Quran (Surah Yusuf) and Syedna Noman RA approves it (according to our belief) in guidance with the leader of our time.
As far as 'kissing the earth' is concerned, it appears to be an innovation by Qadi Noman and does not have any sanction in the Quran or practices of Prophet, Wasi, pre-Fatimid or even Fatimid Imams.
Syedna Qazi Noman may not "have any sanction in the Quran or practices of Prophet, Wasi, pre-Fatimid or even Fatimid Imams". His works are a compilation of what he was told by his Imam, with his permission @ guidance (he states that in almost all of his books), and/with documentation from the Imams of the past. He is just compiling it. Thus we, the Bohras (as per the guidance of our Syedna TUS - who is a Fatimi Dai) use his works as a foundation to our belief.
So, I can safely say that Bohras today have misinterpreted Himma in performing sajda to Dai and members of his family. If their justification is Himma, then it is incorrect.
I vehemently disagree. We practice exactly what he documented. He belived in the Leader of his time, we too. It is the same dawat, same rules, same everything. I have stated what we believe in. Quran and Line 7-8 (I really don't mean to harp on these things, but that's all that needs to be said, I believe!)
Personally, I would not object to taqbeel al-ard for the Dai just like I do not object to 'aarti' to him. But neither of these are Islamic practises approved by Quran or Prophet. Taqbeel is Qadi Noman's innovation. Sujood for a human is different. I object to it because I believe that the Quran forbids it.
I don't agree with the words "aarti" and "innovation" you have used.
I cannot do more than respect/accept your views & beliefs, as you must reciprocate for ours.
@anajmi
If you read the Fatimi Ismaili esoteric meaning of this particular verse and story, you will understand what is really meant (According to our beliefs). I cannot disclose it at this time.
He He He He He. Why am I not surprised? Your beliefs have been exposed as idiotic more than a few times on this board. You do not need to disclose what you believe. It is apparent!!
Believe all you want. It is the Ismaili Fatimid Dawoodi Bohra belief, not to disclose esoteric taweel meanings without permission to anyone, especially non believers. This has been a practice from the earliest of ages, and many of OUR texts emphasize on it. For example, we believe in the following:
لا تلقوا الجواهر الى الكلاب
"Do not throw Jewels in front of dogs" - (for the will never be able to understand its value).
So, whether you like it or not, I cannot/will not disclose.
I appreciate porus comment in this manner. He seems like a better/ more mature human and intellectual than you. He said:
Thank you for your inputs. I too value contributions by Adam and Ismaili and I hope that they continue their discussions. Only, I prefer not to challenge anyone to state their faith and belief which can be judged from their posts. I am against inquisitorial attitude favored by religiously oriented people throughout history.
If I may conclude. The argument was fruitful.
We all knew (at least I did) that at the end of the day, nothing was going to change in anyones minds, and I accepted that. Whatever is in Allah will.
I too am not the type who likes to pick or answer and argument. I only responded/will respond (in the future), if I feel that that the Dawoodi Bohra beliefs are being completely distorted.
I do not by any means consider myself to be an authority on the Dawoodi Bohra belief, (Important note: to the distortion loving people out there), I can only speak of what I know.
واسلام
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Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Brother Porus,porus wrote:Brs. Hussain and DMY,
Thank you for your inputs. I too value contributions by Adam and Ismaili and I hope that they continue their discussions. Only, I prefer not to challenge anyone to state their faith and belief which can be judged from their posts. I am against inquisitorial attitude favored by religiously oriented people throughout history.
This is the only forum where Bohras can discuss their faith in a critical fashion. Criticism is a two-edged sword. It can weaken faith or strengthen it. Avoiding criticism out of fear is rendering personal disservice to the only valid goal of life and that is being true to oneself.
Br Hussain, you have already previously sent me kitab al-majaalis wa_l-musaayaraat. Thank you for repeating the :irsaal. I look forward to receiving other books and Shirazi's majaalis would be a very welcome addition to my library.
I wondered if you have Qadi Noman's Iftitah (kitab iftitaH ad-da'wa wa :ibtita'a_d-dawla). If you do, please send it to me. That would supplement kitab ul-himma well, I think.
Thank you very much for you contribution on this forum. Regarding the Qadi Noman's Iftitah (kitab iftitaH ad-da'wa wa :ibtita'a_d-dawla). Yes I do have it. I will send it within couple of hours.
Regards.
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Brother Hussain,Hussain_KSA wrote:
Brother Porus,
Thank you very much for you contribution on this forum. Regarding the Qadi Noman's Iftitah (kitab iftitaH ad-da'wa wa :ibtida'a_d-dawla). Yes I do have it. I will send it within couple of hours.
Regards.
Thank you very much. I very much appreciate that.
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Most people in the world follow their own views in their everyday life but come together to express and emphasize religious, political or social solidarity at specific events. Bohras celebrate their devotion to their religious leadership in a fashion that seems extreme to me but only at religious functions led by Amils. In social gatherings Bohras tend to be like everyone else and function, at least in my contacts with them, by ignoring Sayedna and his family altogether or ridicule their Jamaat functionaries with contempt primarily over financial issues.Adam wrote:Thank you for all your time and effort.
Although, according to our belief, even a "Shia" belief must have a physical leader in todays times. But that's a whole new chapter. Syedna Qazi Nomand dedicated most of his work in proving the necessity of a leader for every age with a constant continuity. We stand by this simple but extremely important belief, and this is the simple reason there are differences today. Those with a leader, and those without.
Yes, the necessity for a leader (Imam) from 'ahl-e-bayt' is a Shia dogma and he is considered to be always present on earth, either hidden or present among his followers. He is 'divinely' appointed. I understand that Bohras now believe that during the absence of their Imam, his deputy, the Dai, and his family (or some of his nominees within his family) are 'spiritual' heirs of 'ahl-e-bayt' and are also 'divinely' appointed. And the Dai inherits the mantle of infallibility from the Imam, who is sinless.
I have made it clear that I do not regard any Imam after Imam Husain to be 'sinless'. let alone any Dai. This is not a Shia dogma. The latter extends the Quranic term 'ahl-e-bayt' to include descendants of Imam Husain but I do not find any justification in the Quran for that view. Justification of 'sinlessness' of Panjatan is the hadith of Ahl-e-Kisaa.
While there is nothing controversial about the dogma about the necessity of Imam to be physically present on earth all the time, any ritual, like sajda, deemed to be for Allah alone in the Quran, can never be justified by any scholar for a human.
I believe that Qadi Noman has not justified sujood to Imam and as far as 'taqbeel-al-ard' is concerned, it is Qadi Noman's innovation and we do not find him quoting any Imam justifying this practise in Himma unlike his copious quotes from Imams in his Da'aimul Islam.
As far as sujood is concerned, Qadi Noman tells us that Nabi forbade sujood to himself. And whenever he refers to history or Quran (such as the episode of Yusuf), he says that it was not, or in Adam's view, it is not, considered undesirable. Why doesn't Qadi Noman say that it is actually desirable? That would be more logical if Qadi Noman wants Imam's followers to do the 'desirable', which is the main objective of Kitabul Himma.
By "teacher", do you mean the Imam and which Imam was it? My view is that with respect to the great scholars of the Fatimid period like Qadi Noman, Sijistani, Kirmani etc, the roles were reversed and that they were the "teachers" and Imams were the "students". Ignoring the justification based on esoteric knowledge of what the Fatimid scholars produced as having 'divine' origin in a'alam-e-ibdaa, there is a distinct lack of continuity of the teachings of Imam Jafar al-Sadiq and his predecessors and what was produced by these scholars. This becomes very clear when you compare Ismaili and Ithna-ashari traditions.Adam wrote:
I have another question for you. Was Kitabul Himma commissioned by a Fatimid Imam or was it written at Qadi Niman's own initiative?
He was commisioned by his "teacher" as mentioned in the introduction.
As I wrote before, Qadi Noman wrote "Himma" but there is no evidence that any Imam has approved it. If he did, then why did he refer to his "teacher" and not the Imam?
So, with respect to sujood to humans, Adam is basically saying, "To you your beliefs, and to me mine." And he then goes on to say in response to anajmi:
Many secret societies have used secrecy as a tool for control. However, slowly but surely, there is enough activity and interest in scholarly circles, both Muslim and non-Muslim including Ismailies, in Ismaili esoteric literature that it will all come out in the end. Bohras are noticeably absent from this endeavor except for a few like Poonawa and Hamdanis, both father and daughter.Adam wrote:
So, whether you like it or not, I cannot/will not disclose.
I will end with an extreme example of secrecy in the face of a possible backlash against Bohra beliefs by other Muslims. While we have current justification of sujood to humans by devoted Bohras on this forum, Sayedna's representatives, in an interview with al-Jazeera, not only denied that Bohras perform sujood to the Dai but went on to invoke Allah's la'anat on anyone who does it.
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... era#p81193
It is clear that in the age of information where ideas spread like wild flowers, it makes no sense to deny your beliefs. However, it would have been better if Sayedna's representative had defended his beliefs on the basis of Kitabul Himma just as Adam has done here on this forum.
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Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Again gross generalization. The bohras I meet (which must surely be more numerous than the ones you meet as I am a bohra myself) hold no such comtempt. As you are a rotten apple, you are more prone to meeting more of your ilk.porus wrote:
Most people in the world follow their own views in their everyday life but come together to express and emphasize religious, political or social solidarity at specific events. Bohras celebrate their devotion to their religious leadership in a fashion that seems extreme to me but only at religious functions led by Amils. In social gatherings Bohras tend to be like everyone else and function, at least in my contacts with them, by ignoring Sayedna and his family altogether or ridicule their Jamaat functionaries with contempt primarily over financial issues.
There is no such thing as "his family". The DAI is the only appointed deputy of the Imam. No authority extends to his family at all. Authority do extend to the Hudood of Dawat (which happen to be from his family in this case). You use "his family and amils" too much. This is just an childish attempt to misguide.porus wrote: Yes, the necessity for a leader (Imam) from 'ahl-e-bayt' is a Shia dogma and he is considered to be always present on earth, either hidden or present among his followers. He is 'divinely' appointed. I understand that Bohras now believe that during the absence of their Imam, his deputy, the Dai, and his family (or some of his nominees within his family) are 'spiritual' heirs of 'ahl-e-bayt' and are also 'divinely' appointed. And the Dai inherits the mantle of infallibility from the Imam, who is sinless.
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
porus/Adam,
Excellent work guys. I'm enjoying and learning from your scholarly discussion. It was all going well until Adam pulled out the secret weapon: taawil.
Dr. Faust wrote:
Excellent work guys. I'm enjoying and learning from your scholarly discussion. It was all going well until Adam pulled out the secret weapon: taawil.
Dr. Faust wrote:
Now, that is very convinient. Ain't it doctor?Authority do extend to the Hudood of Dawat (which happen to be from his family in this case).
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Adam,So, whether you like it or not, I cannot/will not disclose.
There is nothing to disclose. The actions of Khidr (as) are already explained in the Quran when he himself explains them to Musa (as). Whatever great secrets you are taught, are nothing but fiction.
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Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Yes it is convenient . In fact it is common sense. Someone is not born a Had. He has to be taught books of Dawat before he is inducted as an Had. And it is much convenient for a DAI to teach his own sons and daughters(living in his own house) rather than outsiders. So you will find in history that DAIs sons and daughters being a Had na sahab is a rule rather than a exception.Humsafar wrote:porus/Adam,
Excellent work guys. I'm enjoying and learning from your scholarly discussion. It was all going well until Adam pulled out the secret weapon: taawil.
Dr. Faust wrote:Now, that is very convinient. Ain't it doctor?Authority do extend to the Hudood of Dawat (which happen to be from his family in this case).
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
I have referred to 'innovation' in the sense that it is a new practice introduced in Himma by Qadi Noman. I do not load the term with emotional baggage and do not consider it good or bad.Adam wrote:
Personally, I would not object to taqbeel al-ard for the Dai just like I do not object to 'aarti' to him. But neither of these are Islamic practises approved by Quran or Prophet. Taqbeel is Qadi Noman's innovation. Sujood for a human is different. I object to it because I believe that the Quran forbids it.
I don't agree with the words "aarti" and "innovation" you have used.
As for "aarti", I could use "Wadhawwanu" or "Wadhamni" instead which are favored by Bohras but those too are words with origins in Hindu religious practices. And I do not consider any word either good or bad.
Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Not only are the Dai's sons and daughters taught to enter 'Had'-ship, but as soon as they stop being toddlers, the rest of the Bohras are taught to kneel down with folded hands and prostrate before them.profastian wrote: Yes it is convenient . In fact it is common sense. Someone is not born a Had. He has to be taught books of Dawat before he is inducted as an Had. And it is much convenient for a DAI to teach his own sons and daughters(living in his own house) rather than outsiders. So you will find in history that DAIs sons and daughters being a Had na sahab is a rule rather than a exception.
How any Bohra outside bayt-e-zayni or qasr-e-aali ever gets to conduct an independent study of Bohra doctrines without slavish obedience to the Dai and his family and dare to get an invitation to be initiated into the Hudood hierarchy is a greater esoteric mystery than all the taawil Profaner and his similarly jaahil friends can lay their hands on!
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Re: Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada
Well the aptly named porus again manages to make sense sieve through him. Again there isn't any prostating before shahzadas. And again, there are many non qasr-e-Aali and non bayt-e-zani people whoporus wrote:Not only are the Dai's sons and daughters taught to enter 'Had'-ship, but as soon as they stop being toddlers, the rest of the Bohras are taught to kneel down with folded hands and prostrate before them.profastian wrote: Yes it is convenient . In fact it is common sense. Someone is not born a Had. He has to be taught books of Dawat before he is inducted as an Had. And it is much convenient for a DAI to teach his own sons and daughters(living in his own house) rather than outsiders. So you will find in history that DAIs sons and daughters being a Had na sahab is a rule rather than a exception.
How any Bohra outside bayt-e-zayni or qasr-e-aali ever gets to conduct an independent study of Bohra doctrines without slavish obedience to the Dai and his family and dare to get an invitation to be initiated into the Hudood hierarchy is a greater esoteric mystery than all the taawil Profaner and his similarly jaahil friends can lay their hands on!
porus wrote: get to conduct an independent study of Bohra doctrines