Confusion..is it Ramazan, Ramadhan or Ramadan

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Guest

Confusion..is it Ramazan, Ramadhan or Ramadan

#1

Unread post by Guest » Mon Dec 18, 2000 4:39 am

Assalam Alaykum everybody and Ramazan mubarak,<br> I have this confusion as to the actual pronounciation of this holy month. In india it is Ramzan . In US, it is ramadan as well as ramadhan. There are similar variations for Zoher (noon) prayer also. It is also pronounced as dhuhr in US. Can somebody illuminate on this topic??

Guest

Re: Confusion..is it Ramazan, Ramadhan or Ramadan

#2

Unread post by Guest » Mon Dec 18, 2000 4:55 am

The dilemna arises through incorrect pronunciation of the Arabic langauge.<p>The Arabic word is Ramadhan and technically it should be pronounced that way. However, in Indian communities we tend to find it difficult to produce the "dh" sound correctly and have simplified it to "z". Now it is common practice to just say Ramzan without making an effort to say it correctly because we are all unaware of the original Arabic spelling.<p>The same applies to "dhuhr" and "zohor" and hundred of other words that we are reciting incorectly in our daily namaaz because of our ignorance of Arabic phonetics.<p>What do we do?<p>1. Go to the Arabs and learn how to pronounce Arabic properly and then start reciting our Namaz correctly all the time. Do not rely on our madrassah teachers because they are just as ignorant as us.<p>2. Do nothing and pass our errors on to our children.<br>

Guest

Re: Confusion..is it Ramazan, Ramadhan or Ramadan

#3

Unread post by Guest » Mon Dec 18, 2000 2:17 pm

To-night for the first time, I will endeavour to pray during the Lailat-ul-Qadr in either English or Gujrati with my family and some friends. We do not understand Arabic, can only read. My kids, who are born and bred in North America know English and Gujrati. They do not understand Arabic although they can read the Holy Quran. They can NOT even understand the adulterated pigeon Gujrati littered with urdu, hindustani and Arabic, now called Lisan-e-dawaat to make it more distinct!!!<p>My kids and the friends kids refuse to offer their prayers in Arabic when they do not know what they are praying etc.<p>Allah Subhanau wata'ala is gafururrahim and understands all languages.<p>Lailat-ul-Qadr Mubarak to all. Please pray for all.<p>Wassalaam

Guest

Re: Confusion..is it Ramazan, Ramadhan or Ramadan

#4

Unread post by Guest » Mon Dec 18, 2000 3:27 pm

Yes, Allah understands all languages. However, the Quran (which would form a major part of your prayers) in its pure form is in Arabic. The Quran repeatedly emphasizes its Arabic nature. See 12:2, 20:113, 39:28, 41:3, 42:7 and 43:3.<p>I urge you and your family to read it as far as possible in the beautiful Arabic language, but also at the same time attempt to understand it through the translated interpretation of whatever language you are used to.<p>Allah knows best.

Guest

Re: Confusion..is it Ramazan, Ramadhan or Ramadan

#5

Unread post by Guest » Mon Dec 18, 2000 5:35 pm

Thanks:<p>I looked up the references in English you kindly provided which are as follows:<p>Quranic references: English translations<p>12:2, <br>Verily, We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'ân in order that you may understand<p>20:113, <br>And thus We have sent it down as a Qur'ân in Arabic, and have explained therein in detail the warnings, in order that they may fear Allâh, or that it may cause them to have a lesson from it (or to have the honour for believing and acting on its teachings).<p>39:28, <br>An Arabic Qur'ân, without any crookedness (therein) in order that they may avoid all evil which Allâh has ordered them to avoid, fear Him and keep their duty to Him.<p>41:3,<br>A Book whereof the Verses are explained in detail; A Qur'ân in Arabic for people who know.<p>And if We had sent this as a Qur'ân in a foreign language other than Arabic, they would have said: "Why are not its Verses explained in detail (in our language)? What! (A Book) not in Arabic and (the Messenger) an Arab?" Say: "It is for those who believe, a guide and a healing. And as for those who disbelieve, there is heaviness (deafness) in their ears, and it (the Qur'ân) is blindness for them. They are those who are called from a place far away (so they neither listen nor understand). <p><br>42:7 <br>And thus We have inspired unto you (O Muhammad SAW) a Qur'ân (in Arabic) that you may warn the Mother of the Towns (Makkah) and all around it. And warn of the Day of Assembling, of which there is no doubt, when a party will be in Paradise (those who believed in Allâh and followed what Allâh's Messenger SAW brought them) and a party in the blazing Fire (Hell) (those who disbelieved in Allâh and followed not what Allâh's Messenger SAW brought them)[]<p>43:3<br>We verily, have made it a Qur'ân in Arabic, that you may be able to understand (its meanings and its admonitions)<p>*******************************************<br>With due respect, the religion of Islam was brought to Arabia under directives from Allah - and hence the need for the Holy Quran to be Arabic.<p>Over the years, the Holy scriptures of Quran have been translated in numerous languages for the simple reason that it could be understood by people other than Arabia.<p>Does your argument relate to prayng in Arabic or is it just the recitation of Holy Quran.? Everyone thinks their own language is "beautiful" - why Arabic ONLY? One should <br>use one's God given brains and intellect rather than just the heart and feelings to weigh these profound personal issues. as well!!<p>I do not wish to demean people's opinions thoughts or ideas - they are free to express them. If I have hurt anyone's feelings my sincerely apologies. Please pray for all the Muslims to-night. Thanks<p>Wassalam<br>

Guest

Re: Confusion..is it Ramazan, Ramadhan or Ramadan

#6

Unread post by Guest » Mon Dec 18, 2000 10:07 pm

Let me re-phrase and expand my statements. The Quran is Arabic. A translation in another language is useful in understanding Quran just like a tafsir. However a translation is just that. It is a form of interpretation, and is not equated with the Quran itself. So we can have several different translations, but only one Quran.<p>Arabic is beautiful because it the language in which the Quran is expressed. That's my opinion and you are free to think otherwise. However, remember that there are words in the Quran which cannot easily be expressed in other languages -- one of the difficulties for the translator.<p>I am not saying we should not read translations or Tafsirs. On the contrary I feel they are essential for Arabic speakers and non-Arabic speakers alike to be able to attempt to understand the meaning of the Quran. But reading the Quran in Arabic has and should be maintained -- as Arabic is the language of its revelation.<p>In reading the Arabic Quran, you are uttering the very words revealed by Allah to the Prophet (saw). In reading a tafsir or translation, you are attempting to understand its guidance. Both carry with it blessings. Therefore, IMHO, it is not a question of one or the other. Both should be done.<p>I look forward to your opinion.<br>

Guest

Re: Confusion..is it Ramazan, Ramadhan or Ramadan

#7

Unread post by Guest » Tue Dec 19, 2000 6:44 pm

Thanks for your elaborations:<p>1. I understand what you are saying but do not entirely agree with what you are saying. I will continue to read the Holy Quran's Tafsir /translations in English or Gujrati and receive the knowledge and blessings in what I believe I understand. I am not prepared to engage in any debate or arguments on this personal issue.<p>2. Please elaborate/clarify on my query re. the offering of salaats in language other than Arabic - in my mother tongue or any in other language I can easily relate offer my suppllications and prayers to Almighty Allah.<p>3. To stretch this issue a little further, (re.your assertions "as Arabic is the language of its revelation. In reading the Arabic Quran, you are uttering the very words revealed by Allah to the Prophet (saw). In reading a tafsir or translation, you are attempting to understand its guidance. Both carry with it blessings."<br>I am wondering about the language of of discourses our Bohri priests/ vaaezins offer to the congregations during various Majlises. Why are they offered in the so-called Lisan-e-dawaat. It should be in Arabic - the language the Prophet and AhleBayt (PBUH) used to utilize whe he and the AhleBayt used to address the Muslims. <p>Wassalam

Guest

Re: Confusion..is it Ramazan, Ramadhan or Ramadan

#8

Unread post by Guest » Tue Dec 19, 2000 9:01 pm

On point 2: I don't see anything wrong with offering prayers in your own language. What I would rather do is learn Arabic, learn the meaning of the prayer, and then pray in Arabic.<p>On point 3: Yes, the Prophet (S.A.W.) spoke in Arabic, but that does not mean we must all speak in Arabic. My argument was only about the Quran, not sermons, etc. In all sects I have come across, when a Quranic reference is made, the Arabic Quran is quoted first followed by any interpretation or translation.<br>

Guest

Re: Confusion..is it Ramazan, Ramadhan or Ramadan

#9

Unread post by Guest » Wed Dec 20, 2000 1:37 pm

Several points. Pray in any language or pray without a language,pray from your heart. There are people without speach,who pray and there are animals who have no tongue and still pray ie. praise their creator Almighty Allah. Allah only needs the language of your heart,your naik niat. Allah understands all. Flase physical exercise of namaz in any language is of no use ubless your feelings are with it.<p>We refer to correct pronunciations. Zohor and Duar is a far away cry. If you have an opportunity sometimes listen to some of the gujrati speaking marsia parties recite urdu marsias. They make a complete mockery of the marsias of Anis and mir. And some of the marsias are translated along the same baher in the so called lissane dawat.ie gujrati language written in arabic alphabets.<br>Some of these marsia parties should not be allowed to recite, if they cannot pronouce the words. imagine instead of zainab they say jainab and instead of phirti they will say firti.

Guest

Re: Confusion..is it Ramazan, Ramadhan or Ramadan

#10

Unread post by Guest » Thu Dec 21, 2000 9:23 am

You may wish to pray any how you like, but I prefer to do salaat following the example (sunnah) of our Prophet (SAW). But I do agree that salaat are no use unless your heart is with it.

Guest

Re: Confusion..is it Ramazan, Ramadhan or Ramadan

#11

Unread post by Guest » Thu Dec 21, 2000 6:22 pm

Assalamu alaykum Dear Brothers/Sisters<p>Although I agree that one should know what one is reciting in anything, be it salat or Qur'an, but it is considered wajib when the person is able to recite in Arabic to do so. The reason I say it is wajib once your able to recite in Arabic is because when the Prophet and the Imams took control and brought people to Islam of all different ethnic backgrounds and languages they taught the recitation both of salat and Qur'an in only Arabic when they were able.<p>If your pronouncing things wrong then we must learn to pronounce the words correctly..not just give-up the language because it is to hard to understand. Claiming ignorance in not an excuse when you know it is wrong.<p>In addition, a person who recites in Arabic and doesn't know Arabic receives 7 times more barakat the one who recites knowing Arabic.<p>Was salam

Guest

Re: Confusion..is it Ramazan, Ramadhan or Ramadan

#12

Unread post by Guest » Thu Dec 21, 2000 6:23 pm

Assalamu alaykum Dear Brothers/Sisters<p>Although I agree that one should know what one is reciting in anything, be it salat or Qur'an, but it is considered wajib when the person is able to recite in Arabic to do so. The reason I say it is wajib once your able to recite in Arabic is because when the Prophet and the Imams took control and brought people to Islam of all different ethnic backgrounds and languages they taught the recitation both of salat and Qur'an in only Arabic when they were able.<p>If your pronouncing things wrong then we must learn to pronounce the words correctly..not just give-up the language because it is to hard to understand. Claiming ignorance in not an excuse when you know it is wrong.<p>In addition, a person who recites in Arabic and doesn't know Arabic receives 7 times more barakat the one who recites knowing Arabic.<p>Was salam

Guest

Re: Confusion..is it Ramazan, Ramadhan or Ramadan

#13

Unread post by Guest » Thu Dec 21, 2000 9:00 pm

Excuse me!!!!!!!<p>Where does Husayn get his following assertions from? The so-called LAL QITAAB or does he make it up as he goes along like the rest of the Kothari Bohris - the flavour of the day, so to say.<br>a) "it is considered wajib (mandatory)when the person is able to recite in Arabic to do so. "<br>b) "a person who recites in Arabic and doesn't know Arabic receives 7 times more barakat the one who recites knowing Arabic."<p>It will help if he can substantiate this by some documentary evidence such as the Holy Quran, Hadith or Shariah.

Guest

Re: Confusion..is it Ramazan, Ramadhan or Ramadan

#14

Unread post by Guest » Thu Dec 21, 2000 11:26 pm

'mumineen' brother,<p>There's no need to be offensive. Husayn is sharing his knowledge as I am. If you need clarification there are ways to say it.<p>Reciting Salaat in Arabic is wajib, even according to major Sunni scholars.<p>The Prophet (SAW) allowed for Salman Al-Farsi to translate parts of the Quran into Farsi but never was he allowed to recite his Salaat in Farsi.<p>Now, keeping in mind that the Quran is only the Quran if it is in the "plain Arabic language" [Quran 26:195], read the following Hadiths:<p>--------------<p>Abu Dawood from Rifaa’ah ibn Raafi’, who said that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "When you get up to pray, if you know some Qur’aan, recite it, otherwise say al-hamdu Lillaah (praise be to Allaah), and La ilaaha ill-Allaah (there is no god but Allaah), and Allaahu akbar (Allaah is Most Great)."<p>Abu Dawood reported that a man came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said: "I cannot learn anything of the Qur’aan. Teach me something that will suffice me." He said, "Say Subhaan Allaah wa’l-hamdu Lillaah wa Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah wa Allaahu akbar wa Laa hawla wa laa quwwata illa Billaah."<p><br>--------------<p>I look forward to your thoughts.<p>

Guest

Re: Confusion..is it Ramazan, Ramadhan or Ramadan

#15

Unread post by Guest » Fri Dec 22, 2000 7:17 pm

Husyan:<br>you said ""a person who recites in Arabic and doesn't know Arabic receives 7 times more barakat the one who recites knowing Arabic."<p>To me it seems that Allah bestows more blessings to the ignorent than to a person who is more knowlegeable or practics correct.<br>Therefore it is better for me , not to know anything and be ignorent, because Allah will reward me more. ??? <p><br>Hyder.<br>

Guest

Re: Confusion..is it Ramazan, Ramadhan or Ramadan

#16

Unread post by Guest » Tue Dec 26, 2000 1:26 pm

Assalamu alayk Br. Hyder,<br>Actually it is blessing for encouragement. A muslim who practices Islam without knowing the language of the religion is in one way more faithful in Islam by trusting in Allah and His Quran or His Prophet. This doesn't mean a person must remain ignorant and not learn the "in & out" of the faith. <p>Was salam

Guest

Re: Confusion..is it Ramazan, Ramadhan or Ramadan

#17

Unread post by Guest » Tue Dec 26, 2000 1:27 pm

Assalamu alayk Br. Hyder,<br>Actually it is blessing for encouragement. A muslim who practices Islam without knowing the language of the religion is in one way more faithful in Islam by trusting in Allah and His Quran or His Prophet. This doesn't mean a person must remain ignorant and not learn the "in & out" of the faith. <p>Was salam

Guest

Re: Confusion..is it Ramazan, Ramadhan or Ramadan

#18

Unread post by Guest » Tue Dec 26, 2000 7:31 pm

Salam all,<p>Lots of points to make...<p>Firstly, it might be that both points of views are correct, that Namaz in Arabic or in local language. I have a bias towards one but that does not matter as much.<p>As for translation, see if anyone can find an english translation for "majlis". Thats the problem with translations. I am not saying that reading in a language other than Arabic is not allowed. But I would say its much better if its in Arabic, for two reasons. Firstly, all translations lose the original meanings. This I realized after learning Arabic. Secondly, because I want to play safe; just in case it was not right and especially because I made this decision on my own (I have been thinking along these lines before making an effort to learn Arabic).<p>As for ahadith quoted, almost all hadith literature is in Arabic anyways. Those Arabic supplications do not imply the requirement of using Arabic in supplications or Namaz. Supplications, I do in Arabic because I better ask for God what I want. And those I can keep changing over time.<p>As for actions and intentions, Islam requires both. Heart is purified through Salat, and a sincere heart must offer Salat.<p>But the actual point that I want to make is following. Why learn Gujrati? How about making it compulsory to learn Arabic instead. Learn Gujrati just so one can communicate with other Bohra members? That can be done using English, Urdu, Hindi etc. How about making sure that one's children learn Arabic so they can understand Qur'an and communicate with Allah instead?<p>This is just an idea ... I think this is where the actual problem lies.<p>Regards

Guest

Re: Confusion..is it Ramazan, Ramadhan or Ramadan

#19

Unread post by Guest » Tue Dec 26, 2000 7:35 pm

Errata:<br>=======<p>I said I do supplications in Arabic, nopes I meant I do those in Urdu, for I understand that better.<p>Secondly, one might learn Gujrati as well, but much more emphasis should be on Arabic, for we must understand Qur'an.<p>Regards