Dumb DB or PROGS?

[incredible]

In the name of Allah almighty...


I replied this comment on some other thread but no prog replied so here i am asking again.

If dawoodi bohra kids are dumb then....

how many scholars generate by reformist sect?

how many high positioned dignatories created from reformist sect?

how many hafiz ul Quraan or kari from reformists?

list goes on.



http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... 7&start=30

[Al Zulfiqar]

incredible,

first of all, you seem to have a strange compulsion to waiver between several personalities and ID's. you started off on this forum as a sympathiser for reform, then made a sudden switch to being virulently anti -reform, and when you were warned and blacklisted for a while because of uttering threats and using filthy words to abuse members here, you created another id to continue with your puerile and unhinged tirades.

then you came back again as a so-called fellow progressive, but have entered another phase of frenetic schizophrenia. you seriously need to have your head examined. maybe you have had a traumatic episode, dropped on your head as a baby or suffering from some dangerous std afflictions.

secondly, this thread of yours makes no sense as your basic premise itself is flawed. no one has claimed that bohra kids are dumb, although its another story that they get dumbed down and rendered impotent in using their god-given intellect as they get older.

thirdly, there is no comparison in numbers of the fanatic abdes and the reformists, so your query is stupid and nonsensical.

lastly, one wonders at the intention behind your question. you seem to be wanting to stir up fitnat and stir up a war of contrition, something that might suit your sick needs to garner attention.

[incredible]

incredible,

first of all, you seem to have a strange compulsion to waiver between several personalities and ID's. you started off on this forum as a sympathiser for reform, then made a sudden switch to being virulently anti -reform, and when you were warned and blacklisted for a while because of uttering threats and using filthy words to abuse members here, you created another id to continue with your puerile and unhinged tirades.

then you came back again as a so-called fellow progressive, but have entered another phase of frenetic schizophrenia. you seriously need to have your head examined. maybe you have had a traumatic episode, dropped on your head as a baby or suffering from some dangerous std afflictions.

secondly, this thread of yours makes no sense as your basic premise itself is flawed. no one has claimed that bohra kids are dumb, although its another story that they get dumbed down and rendered impotent in using their god-given intellect as they get older.

thirdly, there is no comparison in numbers of the fanatic abdes and the reformists, so your query is stupid and nonsensical.

lastly, one wonders at the intention behind your question. you seem to be wanting to stir up fitnat and stir up a war of contrition, something that might suit your sick needs to garner attention.

I was never a prog symphatiser,according to me progs are most retarded and jhahil sect of islaam,and yes i do have some issues with present working of kothar,but any ways do u have answer to my question? or u will just post your regular bull shiit?

[Doctor]

In the name of Allah almighty...


I replied this comment on some other thread but no prog replied so here i am asking again.

If dawoodi bohra kids are dumb then....

how many scholars generate by reformist sect?

how many high positioned dignatories created from reformist sect?

how many hafiz ul Quraan or kari from reformists?

list goes on.



http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... 7&start=30

Bhai Incredible, Kids of DB are not dumb they are otherwise indeed.

Allah mercy is general as well as special. Imam Bakir (a) said the special mercy of Allah is for our pure 'muhibs' which is Dawoodi Bohras.

Unlike all other sects the kids and adults of Dawoodi Bohras are specially blessed. In Udaipur, ask to average kid of Sunni on career: he will proudly say, "I will sell paan-beedi, I will become tempo mechanic, Iwil be helper in smuggling gang, etc". Ask to average DB kid on career they will reply, I will become CA, Engineer, etc

However Bade Mulla Taher Saifuddin and Burhanuddin have stopped the religious and scientific knowledges to DB kids.

In one post Hussain_KSA mentioned that in Jamea Saifiya passing in the examination was based on question if the candidate knows the Madah of Taher Saifuddin! Burhanuddin sahab will not allow common mumineen access to religious books, not even to translation of Quran. So Burhanuddin sahab to up keep his false throne is depriving DB kids and making them religiously dumb.

In Udaipur, where Bohra Youth and Bohra Shabab are both sizable: all the IIT students are/were of/from Bohra Youth only.

In analysing Dumbs: lets begin with Burhanuddin sahab: despite 99 years of age/experience he has not yet learned this much knowledge that he can give a public speech without refering papers. And if papers jumbels, then so will he.

[Doctor]

"In analysing Dumbs: lets begin with Burhanuddin sahab: despite 99 years of age/experience he has not yet learned this much knowledge that he can give a public speech without refering papers. And if papers jumbels, then so will he."

A question to you "doc"

since you name yourself "Doctor", i'm assuming you have some basic qualifications.

At the age of 99...ok 96 if it makes you happy, will you be able to even lift your finger to indicate that you want to go pee???

Lets see you answer that question before you question someone ability to do bayaan for 3 hours and more at a stretch, when otherwise young, healthy 35 year olds like me start to fidget out of discomfort in 30 to 40 minutes

A humble request to you and morons of your kind... look at his age. 96 too is a hell of an old age to live upto

Bhai Mustufa Nalwalla,

I appreciate Bade Mulla Burhanuddin sahab that he speaks for three hours in one go. The context is on dumbness - the point is he speaks throughout by looking in paper and not out of his own brain power - all through his life!

[Al Zulfiqar]

nallu,

are you suffering from dementia or alzheimers? perhaps you are hard of hearing and reading too, although you are not yet 99! what bro. doctor has said atleast a dozen times is that syedna MB has NEVER given a bayan, any bayan, without reading from pre-prepared papers. and this is not now at 99 but ever since he has taken the position of dai.

and if his papers get mixed up, he messes up his bayans, even during ashura. this has been going on since last 60 years, so stop making excuses for him now when he is 99.

[incredible]

this thread is not about age of syedna,ppl on this forum have accused kids of ortho that they are dumb and they are not allowed to gain worldly knowledge....sonow question is what progs kids have achived in last 40 years?

give a single name of famous personality from progs who gain any remarkeble achivement in last 40 years.

[Humsafar]

incredible, surely you're incredibly confused. Nobody has accused that DB kids are dumb, what reformists are saying is that they are made dumb early on by constant brainwashing and indoctrination. In that sense, yes reformist kids are not dumb. They may or may not have become scholars or dignitaries or whatever but at least they are not brainwashed into bowing and scraping before a human god, they are not part of a cult, their dignity and self-respect is intact and they do not allow themselves to be exploited by a religious mafia. DB kids are not born dumb, they are, I repeat, made dumb. You should know, you're a shining example of it. Do you ever care to read your own blabberings on this forum? Your confusion and incoherence inflicts physical pain on a reader. By just responding to you I feel mentally tortured.

[incredible]

yeah u must be feeling tortured coz time and time again i do punch in face of your prog movement which is not achiveing any thing.....in last 40 years you have done nothing but made people astray from deen and islaam.

most progs i have met in my personal life dont even know basic of islaam and shariyat...what they know is to just abuse dawat and any thing related to syedna.no matter syedna is right or wrong but definately progs have lost path of islaam.

[Al Zulfiqar]

no matter syedna is right or wrong .....

incredibly stupid,

thanks for admitting that whether syedna is right or wrong, you will remain steadfast in your idol worship to him...!! please tell me, how do you differ from the foolish and gullible millions who believed in the sai baba, no matter if he was right or wrong?

[Humsafar]

most progs i have met in my personal life dont even know basic of islaam and shariyat...

And you worship the dai. We know how much of basic of Islam and shariyat you know!!!!

[incredible]

most progs i have met in my personal life dont even know basic of islaam and shariyat...

And you worship the dai. We know how much of basic of Islam and shariyat you know!!!!

I dont worship DAI neither my family so talk about your self.

no achivement from progs in last 40 years,they are going no where.

[anajmi]

incredible,

What have you or your family achieved in the last 40 years?

[incredible]

incredible,

What have you or your family achieved in the last 40 years?

why are u getting personal?

reform as an movement havent achived any thing.

[Kaka Akela]

by incredible on Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:26 pm
-------------
why are u getting personal?
reform as an movement havent achived any thing.
---------------------------------------------------
Incerdibly Dumb:
I thought you were studying in England, you think that is an achievement? your english is so poor, how do you manage in your studies, how do you write term papers? Reform is a Movement, not an movement. look at your spellings of Havent and achievd. Please learn to write before starting such outlandish discussions.
Reform Movement has no miqaat tamashas or e-jamaat cards to collect everyone's personal info, including blood types and all other very personal details ( soon they will be asking how many times you sleep with your wife). Reform movement has no set boundaries to know who is reformist and who is not. If you come here we would like to think you are a reformist otherwise why would you waste your time here. what reform movement has achieved is opened the eyes of incredibly dumb people like which is a big accomplishment. We have lots of accomplished people of world class citizens among us i.e. Prof Zahid Ali, Prof Hamdani, Dr. Engineer and many ,many others that we don't collect data for. Who do you have? You all are drowing in " Ghulami ma humami che". Everyone is dumbed down with mola, mola mola, nothing or no one other than mola exist for you. So don't come here to distract us from our reform goals, go back to your matam and sajda and gulami ma humami che.

[incredible]

by incredible on Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:26 pm
-------------
why are u getting personal?
reform as an movement havent achived any thing.
---------------------------------------------------
Incerdibly Dumb:
I thought you were studying in England, you think that is an achievement? your english is so poor, how do you manage in your studies, how do you write term papers? Reform is a Movement, not an movement. look at your spellings of Havent and achievd. Please learn to write before starting such outlandish discussions.
Reform Movement has no miqaat tamashas or e-jamaat cards to collect everyone's personal info, including blood types and all other very personal details ( soon they will be asking how many times you sleep with your wife). Reform movement has no set boundaries to know who is reformist and who is not. If you come here we would like to think you are a reformist otherwise why would you waste your time here. what reform movement has achieved is opened the eyes of incredibly dumb people like which is a big accomplishment. We have lots of accomplished people of world class citizens among us i.e. Prof Zahid Ali, Prof Hamdani, Dr. Engineer and many ,many others that we don't collect data for. Who do you have? You all are drowing in " Ghulami ma humami che". Everyone is dumbed down with mola, mola mola, nothing or no one other than mola exist for you. So don't come here to distract us from our reform goals, go back to your matam and sajda and gulami ma humami che.

Prof Zahid Ali, Prof Hamdani, Dr. Engineer ---this is the best reply you got to defend your self? NO body even knows them.yeah we know engineer just because he is beaten up multiple time for very obvious reasons.


chien stupide tsk tsk tsk

[anajmi]

incredible,

So no one in your family, including you, has achieved anything in 40 years? I think it is pretty shameful to ask someone else of their achievements when you have nothing to show for yourself.

One of the biggest achievements of the progressive movement is that it has given a free and open platform for people to speak their minds without any repercussions and that even includes people like you. What do you or your family have to show?

[ghulam muhammed]

NO body even knows them.yeah we know engineer just because he is beaten up multiple time for very obvious reasons.

Bro incredible,

I agree with Kaka Akela that people like you are dumb to the core due to the constant hammering on chests and mind for which your brains have turned into pulp and you cannot see anything above your more-la and his zaadas. You'll are "kuva me medak" capable of doing trr trr trr in the well and are deprived of the beauty of the vast oceans existing outside your "kuva", youll are dazzled by the glamour and glitterati of more-la and his zaadas and their expensive palaces, high end cars and gold taps fitted in their toilets and their contacts with goonda politicians forgetting the fact that all of these have been acquired thru your hard earned money. Slavery was abolished years ago and people have given up their lives for this just cause but DUMB people like you are PROUD being called slaves.

Now tell me how many people accross the globe know your more-la and how many people know his zaadas as compared to Asghar Ali Engineer ? DUMB Bohras know Engineer due to some unknown kothari goondas beating him up whereas the world knows him for his intellect. To transform your pulp into a human brain, read this:-

Asghar Ali Engineer, an Indian Muslim, is an Islamic scholar, reformist-writer and activist. Internationally known for his work on liberation theology in Islam, he leads the Progressive Dawoodi Bohra movement. The focus of his work is on (and action against) communalism and communal and ethnic violence in India and South Asia. He is an advocate of a culture of peace, non-violence and communal harmony, and has lectured all over world.[1] He is presently the head of the 'Institute of Islamic Studies' and the 'Centre for Study of Society and Secularism', both of which he founded in 1980 and 1993 respectively.[2][3] He currently contributes to The God Contention, a web site comparing and contrasting various worldviews.

Asghar Ali Engineer was born 10 March 1939 in Salumbar, Rajasthan, India as the son of a Bohra priest, Shaikh Qurban Hussain. He was given training in Qur'anic tafsir (commentary), tawil (hidden meaning of Qur'an), fiqh (jurisprudence) and hadith (Prophet's sayings), and learnt the Arabic language.[4]

He graduated in civil engineering from Vikram University in Ujjain, Madhya Pradesh),[5] and served for 20 years as an engineer in the Bombay Municipal Corporation before taking voluntary retirement in 1972, to devote himself to the Bohra reform movement.

In 2004 due to criticism of the Dawoodi Bohra religious establishment he was expelled. In 1980, he set up, Institute of Islamic Studies, in Mumbai, to create a platform for progressive Muslims in Indian and else where. Subsequently, through the 1980s, he wrote extensively on Hindu-Muslim relations, and growing communal violence in India. Asghar Ali Engineer has been instrumental in publicizing the Progressive Dawoodi Bohra movement through his writings and speeches. In 1993, he founded, 'Center for Study of Society and Secularism' to promote communal harmony.[4]

Over the years, he has authored more than 50 books [6] and many articles in various national and international journals, and is founding chairman of the 'Asian Muslim Action Network', director of the 'Institute of Islamic Studies', and head of the 'Center for Study of Society and Secularism' in Mumbai, where he works closely with scholar and scientist Professor Dr Ram Puniyani.

He believes that people who support an unjust order, or remain silent in view of gross injustices is not a religious person. He goes as far to say that people need to wage jihad against all forms of exploitation and injustices and to Engineer women’s inequality is top on his priority list of injustices.

He has been awarded several awards, including the Dalmia Award for communal harmony in 1990, honorary D.Litt. by the University of Calcutta in 1993, the 'Communal Harmony Award' in 1997 and the Right Livelihood Award in 2004 (with Swami Agnivesh) for his 'strong commitment to promote values of co-existence and tolerance'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asghar_Ali_Engineer

[Smart]

incredible,

What have you or your family achieved in the last 40 years?

why are u getting personal?

reform as an movement havent achived any thing.

Reform movement has achieved quite a lot in the last 40 years. The only thing you need to do is to take of the blinkers put up by your slave masters.People like me who are not formally into the reform movement have been able to break the mental shackles imposed on abdes. The fact is that I am not alone. 75% of those born in bohra families are like me. Only about 25% are card holding abdes. Many of these 25% are also not happy, but feel stuck due to various reasons.

Taking away 75% of followers is no mean achievement!

If you are interested in knowing how I have arrived at this figure of 75%, please let me know. I have already explained earlier and will do so again.

[aqs]

Reform movement has achieved quite a lot in the last 40 years. The only thing you need to do is to take of the blinkers put up by your slave masters.People like me who are not formally into the reform movement have been able to break the mental shackles imposed on abdes. The fact is that I am not alone. 75% of those born in bohra families are like me. Only about 25% are card holding abdes. Many of these 25% are also not happy, but feel stuck due to various reasons.

Taking away 75% of followers is no mean achievement!

If you are interested in knowing how I have arrived at this figure of 75%, please let me know. I have already explained earlier and will do so again.

I am interested, please do explain the figure. and if its not personal then please state what has stopped you from joining the reform movement officially also.

[Smart]

I have done it many times and will do it again as you ask.

When the 51st dai expired about 45 years ago, Bohras numbered about 12 lakhs then, which means 1.2 million. Looking at the natural growth in the population, worldwide, it should have doubled at the least, considering no new converts. The world population then was 3.3 billions and now it is 6.9 billions.

This means that the present population should have been approximately 2.4 millions. Instead the card holding abdes number only about 6 lakhs, i.e. 0.6 million. The question is where have the rest of the 18 lakhs, i.e. 1.8 million gone?

This means that this number of persons who were born in a bohra family have drifted away. It in no way implies that all of them are progressive bohras. People have moved away according to their predilections. Thus the number of those born in a bohra family but going away from this foot kissing cult is huge and almost 75%.

Considering that 75% have left and gone, if you are intelligent enough, you will be able to calculate the half life of the cult. You can also calculate how much more time will be required to reduce the numbers to negligible values, say a few thousand persons, which would be size of the present syedna's family.

Who do you think is responsible for all these people drifting away? The dai is supposed to bring people into the dawaat, here we have the case of the father + son duo pushing people away. By what definition of the word can they be called dais?

[aqs]

I have done it many times and will do it again as you ask.

When the 51st dai expired about 45 years ago, Bohras numbered about 12 lakhs then, which means 1.2 million. Looking at the natural growth in the population, worldwide, it should have doubled at the least, considering no new converts. The world population then was 3.3 billions and now it is 6.9 billions.

This means that the present population should have been approximately 2.4 millions. Instead the card holding abdes number only about 6 lakhs, i.e. 0.6 million. The question is where have the rest of the 18 lakhs, i.e. 1.8 million gone?

This means that this number of persons who were born in a bohra family have drifted away. It in no way implies that all of them are progressive bohras. People have moved away according to their predilections. Thus the number of those born in a bohra family but going away from this foot kissing cult is huge and almost 75%.

Considering that 75% have left and gone, if you are intelligent enough, you will be able to calculate the half life of the cult. You can also calculate how much more time will be required to reduce the numbers to negligible values, say a few thousand persons, which would be size of the present syedna's family.

Who do you think is responsible for all these people drifting away? The dai is supposed to bring people into the dawaat, here we have the case of the father + son duo pushing people away. By what definition of the word can they be called dais?

thanks,

kindly do mention your source from which you arrived at the figure of 12 lacs at the demise of Syedna Taher Saifuddin (aq), and also from where did you get the number of 6 lac card holders at present.

[Smart]

This figure, I got from the vaez, of the present syedna, when he took over. I was a grown up child then and was very much into the cult then.

[aqs]

This figure, I got from the vaez, of the present syedna, when he took over. I was a grown up child then and was very much into the cult then.

and the six lac card holder figure??

[Smart]

This is what abdes have posted elsewhere on this forum. If you think I am wrong, please correct me with an authentic reference.

[aqs]

This is what abdes have posted elsewhere on this forum. If you think I am wrong, please correct me with an authentic reference.

So your whole premises is based on two things first on Syedna's waez 45 years back for which obviously you will not have any record to authenticate and in whom you dont believe in, and second a misplaced notion that its abdes who have claimed to be 6 lac card holders, which again is not true.

between its not abdes but progs who always claim that the card holder abdes are 6 lac in number, like you are trying to do over here in vain.

[Maqbool]

This is what abdes have posted elsewhere on this forum. If you think I am wrong, please correct me with an authentic reference.

So your whole premises is based on two things first on Syedna's waez 45 years back for which obviously you will not have any record to authenticate and in whom you dont believe in, and second a misplaced notion that its abdes who have claimed to be 6 lac card holders, which again is not true.

between its not abdes but progs who always claim that the card holder abdes are 6 lac in number, like you are trying to do over here in vain.

Then dear AQS will you please enlighten us the correct number of bohras at present and -since now all is recorded- why kothar has not published the exact figure?

The 6 lacks figure was revilled to us by a person who was working in the ejamat office but it was not offiicial and I can not produce proof.

[aqs]

Then dear AQS will you please enlighten us the correct number of bohras at present and -since now all is recorded- why kothar has not published the exact figure?

Dear Maqbool,
To start with it was not me who stated any numbers, i was just countering the fallacy in 'Smart' post that 1.8 million people have left the fold,

The 6 lacks figure was revilled to us by a person who was working in the ejamat office but it was not offiicial and I can not produce proof.

A lot is revealed to you by your friends but they never provide any substantial proof to back any claims. As far as i know no one including Syedna(tus) has ever commented on the number of DB's

[Smart]

@Aqs,
if you are honest, please counter my contention, by statistics that are authentic and not your opinion. Ridiculing the statistics by means of your opinions, is not a honest discussion.

I have quoted what I heard personally from the present dai. If you have any better references, please bring it forwards, otherwise My contention that 75% of those born as bohras have left, stands.

[aqs]

@Aqs,
if you are honest, please counter my contention, by statistics that are authentic and not your opinion. Ridiculing the statistics by means of your opinions, is not a honest discussion.

I have quoted what I heard personally from the present dai. If you have any better references, please bring it forwards, otherwise My contention that 75% of those born as bohras have left, stands.

Smart,

please be intellectually honest and more forthcoming then this crap. i dont mind accepting facts but they should be facts and not based on opinions and hearsay. Are you alone or Progressives believe your facts, if that is the case then i will put a more detailed analysis of your FACTS

You tell me that present Dai said that we were 12 lacs some 45 years back and you have based your whole premises on this. and i have mentioned that i have not heard any one including Syedna(tus) mentioning the number of DB's.
Now if i produce a weblink where Progressives leader A. A. Engineer says that Bohras are 1.2 million strong community will you agree to it.