Ikhwan ul safa and Ismailism

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udrbohri
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:02 am

Ikhwan ul safa and Ismailism

#1

Unread post by udrbohri » Tue May 10, 2011 1:49 pm

Is Ikhwan ul safa all 52 epistle available online. If anyone have link. Please send me the link.
If online version is not available, if anyone can guide me where can I obtain a full english version.



Biradar
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#2

Unread post by Biradar » Tue May 10, 2011 2:07 pm

Ikhwan as-Safa has not been completely translated into English. The Institute of Ismaili Studies has undertaken this massive project and has published 3 volumes (including an introductory volume) and hopes to publish all the volumes over the next few years. If you live in a large city in the US you can go to a public university library and get the books.

Also, there are a lot of very good overviews of the Rasil Ikwan as-Safa published over the years. Just do a keyword search on any university library catalog and you will find these books.



porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

#3

Unread post by porus » Fri May 13, 2011 10:34 am

I have a complete set of Ikhawan as-safa in pdf. Unfortunately, because it is in Arabic most of you will not benefit from it. In any case, if anyone is interested in receiving a copy, send me a pm.

They are in 4 volumes. Here is the first page from Volume 2.

The full name is Rasaa'il Ikhwan as-Safa wa Khulan al-Wafa

Image



Biradar
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#4

Unread post by Biradar » Fri May 13, 2011 12:30 pm

porus wrote:I have a complete set of Ikhawan as-safa in pdf. Unfortunately, because it is in Arabic most of you will not benefit from it. In any case, if anyone is interested in receiving a copy, send me a pm.
There are enormous amount of papers and thesis published on the Rasail of the Ikhwan. There are translations of a number of the epistles. For example, the Case of Animals v/s Man is translated into English and so are the epistles on Numbers and Music. There is also a thesis on the final volume, i.e. the one on the summation of the entire corpus. There is also a almost-complete translation into German.

One point: even if one understood Arabic or the complete corpus was translated into English, it would not mean that it would make for pleasant or easy reading. A lot of background is needed to understand the epistles and one has to do plenty of reading of secondary material. So even though there is no complete English translation there is enough material to understand and learn something about this complex medieval encyclopedia. I strongly encourage people to study these books as it shows a real rationalist (for the time), eclectic and egalitarian form of Islam.



porus
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Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

#5

Unread post by porus » Fri May 13, 2011 2:51 pm

I second everything that Biradar has stated. An internet search will yield a lot of material.

It is a medieval document and, in physical sciences, it reflects the status of knowledge of its time. One reads it to get an insight into evolution of Arab thought on diverse subjects at that time. It is encyclopedic and should be read in the same vein as one would read Plato and Socrates in the original.

Here is a page from Astronomy section showing the 'structure of the universe'. It is clearly borrowed from Ptolemy's model showing the earth at the center of the universe.

Image



murtaza2152
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:26 pm

#6

Unread post by murtaza2152 » Fri May 13, 2011 3:25 pm

Ikhwan al-Safa’
A Brotherhood of Idealists
on the Fringe of Orthodox Islam

This is an Introductory book published by Oxford (One World Publications) which deals with various points on the book
"Ikhwanus Safa" ,,,,, Its awailable online ,,,,

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&source ... MV_yPiWx6w



murtaza2152
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:26 pm

#7

Unread post by murtaza2152 » Fri May 13, 2011 3:47 pm

Ikhwan al-Safa deals with various aspects of Ismaili Philosophy and Metaphysics like ,
THE FORMATION OF THE UNIVERSE,
THE CREATION OF TIME,
COMING-TO-BE AND PASSING-AWAY
THE PLACE OF MAN IN GOD’S CREATION , etc etc !!!!

I have one thesis on Ikhwan al-Safa ,,,from which i found one image interesting on The Cosmic Hierarchy...

Image



Hussain_KSA
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

#8

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Sat May 14, 2011 5:06 am

Please post that image to admin and he would insert in your mail.

I would also like to request the other members to share whatever books, article and documents they possess about , shariat, jurisprudence, history etc in large benifil of the community.

Regards.



Doctor
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:16 am

#9

Unread post by Doctor » Sat May 14, 2011 12:11 pm

Porus: It is encyclopedic and should be read in the same vein as one would read Plato and Socrates in the original.
Doctor: The difference is: Per Dawoodi Bohras faith, Ikhwan ul safa is errorless.


Porus: Here is a page from Astronomy section showing the 'structure of the universe'. It is clearly borrowed from Ptolemy's model showing the earth at the center of the universe.

Doctor: Refer Quran 2:258 - "Allah causes the sun to rise from the east". Should Sun be at center and Earth have revolved round the sun then Prophet Ibrahim (a) must have said, "Allah causes the Earth to rise from the east".

Hence proved from Prophet Ibrahim statement (per Quran), "Sun raise" and NOT "Earth raise" i.e. Sun revolves and Earth is stationary at center.

Period of Prophet Ibrahim (a) was at least 4500 to 5500 years before Ptolemy's era (so, Ptolemy is not point of origination of above knowledge). Thus, non-Dawoodi Bohras allegation that Ikhan ul safa and other Tawil literature are copied from Greek philopsophy also proves false.



anajmi
Posts: 13400
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

#10

Unread post by anajmi » Sat May 14, 2011 1:25 pm

:wink:

Here is today's sunrise and sunset data from the US Naval Observatory. You can get this information from here.

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/cgi-bin/aa_pap.pl

U.S. Naval Observatory
Astronomical Applications Department

Sun and Moon Data for One Day
The following information is provided for Plano, Collin County, Texas (longitude W96.7, latitude N33.0):

Saturday
14 May 2011 Central Daylight Time

SUN
Begin civil twilight 6:01 a.m.
Sunrise 6:28 a.m.
Sun transit 1:23 p.m.
Sunset 8:18 p.m.
End civil twilight 8:46 p.m.

MOON
Moonrise 4:22 p.m. on preceding day
Moonset 4:07 a.m.
Moonrise 5:32 p.m.
Moon transit 11:12 p.m.
Moonset 4:46 a.m. on following day

Phase of the Moon on 14 May: waxing gibbous with 89% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated.

Full Moon on 17 May 2011 at 6:09 a.m. Central Daylight Time.

Since it says sunrise and moonrise, it means sun and moon are stationary and earth is revolving around them, as per Doctor.



porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

#11

Unread post by porus » Sun May 15, 2011 12:21 pm

Doctor wrote:Porus: It is encyclopedic and should be read in the same vein as one would read Plato and Socrates in the original.
Doctor: The difference is: Per Dawoodi Bohras faith, Ikhwan ul safa is errorless.


Porus: Here is a page from Astronomy section showing the 'structure of the universe'. It is clearly borrowed from Ptolemy's model showing the earth at the center of the universe.

Doctor: Refer Quran 2:258 - "Allah causes the sun to rise from the east". Should Sun be at center and Earth have revolved round the sun then Prophet Ibrahim (a) must have said, "Allah causes the Earth to rise from the east".

Hence proved from Prophet Ibrahim statement (per Quran), "Sun raise" and NOT "Earth raise" i.e. Sun revolves and Earth is stationary at center.

Period of Prophet Ibrahim (a) was at least 4500 to 5500 years before Ptolemy's era (so, Ptolemy is not point of origination of above knowledge). Thus, non-Dawoodi Bohras allegation that Ikhan ul safa and other Tawil literature are copied from Greek philopsophy also proves false.
You are surely joking, Doctor Sahib!!

But...., I do concede your point. When I go out and observe the sky, it is clear to me that I and the earth I am standing on are stationary and the heavens, the sun, the moon, the planets and the stars rotate above me. Clearly, I am seeing now what Nabi Ibrahim must have seen!!! :wink: :wink:



porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

#12

Unread post by porus » Sun May 15, 2011 12:25 pm

murtaza2152 wrote:Ikhwan al-Safa’
A Brotherhood of Idealists
on the Fringe of Orthodox Islam

This is an Introductory book published by Oxford (One World Publications) which deals with various points on the book
"Ikhwanus Safa" ,,,,, Its awailable online ,,,,

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&source ... MV_yPiWx6w
Excellent find, Brother Murtaza. I plan to read it sometime, Inshallah.



murtaza2152
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:26 pm

#13

Unread post by murtaza2152 » Mon May 16, 2011 10:55 am

http://www.antiochgate.com/8_rasail_ikhwan_safa.htm

Any one having above one in PDF ...Please Inform !!!!
Thanks ....



udrbohri
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:02 am

#14

Unread post by udrbohri » Fri May 20, 2011 1:45 pm

Thanks everyone for providing information.
I came across this pdf while searching on net

http://prec.110mb.com/Documents/Akhwan-us-Safa.pdf

Doing extensive research on the topic, I was only able to found a few articles in English. Others are in arabic[hard for me to completely understand the whole context].

May be I will try to compile a list of all available articles and post it.

But summary had taught me a lot. Believe in facts and not history. Do the right thing



kseeker
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

#15

Unread post by kseeker » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:24 pm

has anyone found a complete version of this?
i would be grateful.



Biradar
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#16

Unread post by Biradar » Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:12 pm

As I state above (almost 4 years ago), the whole of the Ikhwan as-Safa has not been translated into English. The Institute of Ismaili Studies has undertaken the translation project, and now several volumes have been published. The list of these are at the Oxford University Press website:

http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/p2p/endecaSe ... f%20purity

The best option is to go to a large public university library to get a copy or read there. The books are complex, and not for everyone in that it requires significant background in classical philosophy (specially Greek philosophy) to understand. They are interesting from an historical perspective, but unless you are a scholar they won't help you much. Some parts of it are entertaining, for example, the "Case of Animals versus Man in the Court of the Jinn". The scientific parts are obviously outdated, and now only of historical interest.



kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

#17

Unread post by kimanumanu » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:28 pm

Does anyone know when they mention "haqeeqat ni kitaab" which books are these? Is it really top secret stuff or books that are in Arabic that have never been translated?



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

#18

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:38 pm

kimanumanu wrote:Does anyone know when they mention "haqeeqat ni kitaab" which books are these? Is it really top secret stuff or books that are in Arabic that have never been translated?
I only know about "Haqqeqat nu bayan" wherein Bohras who have reached the zenith of brainwashing are finally told of the ULTIMATE SECRET which is........ "Haqeeqat maa Dai aj Imamuz zaman che" !! Needless to say that they are given ULTIMATE kasams also so as not to reveal the final revelation !!



Biradar
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#19

Unread post by Biradar » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:59 pm

kimanumanu wrote:Does anyone know when they mention "haqeeqat ni kitaab" which books are these? Is it really top secret stuff or books that are in Arabic that have never been translated?
In Ismailism, and also in several Shia groups, there is the concept of zahir, taaweel and haqiqat. The essential point is that, according to these groups, the prophet brought the "tanzeel" and Ali, based on "secret" teachings of the prophet, brought the "taaweel". In a sense "taaweel" means to take something back to its origins. Hence, at this level one is explained the symbolic meaning of the external shaaria, for example.

The haqiqat literature is not really meant to be secret, but simply a level of knowledge which is to be acquired after one is an expert in taaweel. It mainly consists of cosmogony (theories on the origin and purpose the universe), the nature of human soul, etc. In some Shia groups, haqiqat also consists of the science of understanding divine secrets directly, without recourse to linguistic means. I should say that this is not unique to Islam or Ismailis.

To get a complete list of these books, one should consult the Biobibliography of Ismaili Literature by Ismail Poonawala. He is making an updated version of this book with more details. However, the old edition is also very useful and probably exists in numerous large libraries in the world.

Some of the taaweel and haqiqat literature has been translated into English. Several papers have also been written on these. You can find them in university library catalogs.

I should say that these things can be entertaining and historically interesting, but their time has gone. Obviously, if you want to know anything about the universe it is best to pick up a text-book on cosmology. However, they do have some value as they present a relatively systematic and internally consistent symbolic "geography", so to speak.
ghulam muhammed wrote:I only know about "Haqqeqat nu bayan" wherein Bohras who have reached the zenith of brainwashing are finally told of the ULTIMATE SECRET which is........ "Haqeeqat maa Dai aj Imamuz zaman che" !! Needless to say that they are given ULTIMATE kasams also so as not to reveal the final revelation !!
Someone has been pulling your leg. There is no such "revelation". These are the type of things which the enemies of Ismailis have been saying for centuries. No truth to it. No da'i has claimed he is the Imam.



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

#20

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:16 pm

Biradar wrote:Someone has been pulling your leg. There is no such "revelation". These are the type of things which the enemies of Ismailis have been saying for centuries. No truth to it. No da'i has claimed he is the Imam.
Bro Biradar,

It would be difficult for you or many others to believe this but the fact remains that I was told this by a close friend who had attended the final 'Haqeeqat nu sabak'. That person disclosed this after he drifted away from Bohraism, now it is left for anyone to believe him or not as no proof can be provided due to reasons best known to every Bohras. Needless to say that there is no written evidence or any recorded version of the Dai's statement



Al-Noor
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:55 am

#21

Unread post by Al-Noor » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:44 pm

NO actually I tell you what, ultimatly they dont say Dai is Imam infact they go one step further and claim dai is god on earth and he is the one who is running all affairs on earth....believe me this is true. and they actually are so ashamed of this that they dont allow any one to disclose this in public, this is when tawil and secrecy comes in. and this is why they ask for complete submission.

Imagine now that idiot like muffy is enjoying status of god in bohra world, what will happen to this community? Nauzobillah



Biradar
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

#22

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:44 am

Al-Noor wrote:NO actually I tell you what, ultimatly they dont say Dai is Imam infact they go one step further and claim dai is god on earth and he is the one who is running all affairs on earth....believe me this is true. and they actually are so ashamed of this that they dont allow any one to disclose this in public, this is when tawil and secrecy comes in. and this is why they ask for complete submission.

Imagine now that idiot like muffy is enjoying status of god in bohra world, what will happen to this community? Nauzobillah
I had a strange interaction with an Amil once. He was giving some sabaak to just two people, including me. It was mostly stuff I already knew. In the middle he said that SMB was "raab". I stopped him and asked him to clarify. To make sure he would not beat around the bush, I asked him if he meant "raab" as in the Quranic word. He stumbled a little and then told me that no, what "raab" means is "Master". He clarified that when one adds the definitive article "ar" to make is Ar-Raab it indicates Allah. He said he only meant "raab" as in "master". He said further, that the head of a household can be called "raab" for his household, for example.

Now, technically what is said is true. If one looks at an Arabic dictionary, "raab" does mean "master" (among other things). I was not convinced of this explanation, however. What I think happened is that slowly, over the last few decades the fundamentals of the religion have been changed, and the da'i elevated to a position which is way beyond it is meant to be. I believe this was started by Mr. Yusuf Najmudin and his cohorts in an attempt to increase the power of the da'i and slowly eliminate the positions and importance of the mazoon and mukasir. I have elaborated on this before.

In any case, my feeling is that this exaggeration is one of the reasons the current schism has occurred. I think that the faction which was attached to SKQ did not agree with this (among many other things), and was sidelined and humiliated. The schism, I hope, corrects these things. I am not convinced, although I have not heard any use of the word "raab" from the Fatmidawaat people.



Al-Noor
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:55 am

#23

Unread post by Al-Noor » Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:08 am

In bohra fake theology, cheating and lying in order to save dai secret is perfectly fine. so if some one has brain and if he will caught them making dai god they will not hesitate to lie and start twisting definition of words in order to save his dai. its a kind of losers game. most jamiya student no longer understand dai is just a slave and support for Imam, they are strongly believing that dai is god on earth. and this is what they preach when they get mic in hand in masjid.

ever wonder why these idiots never talk more about ALLAH but rather prefer to pass time talking dai? because for them ALLAH is not important anymore....Nauzobillah.



Al-Noor
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:55 am

#24

Unread post by Al-Noor » Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:11 am

I know true bohra books dont teach all this, but our great TS and MB has made few little changes in last 200 years and now we are here. :roll:



kseeker
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 am

#25

Unread post by kseeker » Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:46 pm

kimanumanu wrote:Does anyone know when they mention "haqeeqat ni kitaab" which books are these? Is it really top secret stuff or books that are in Arabic that have never been translated?
@biradar: thanks for the link. way to expensive for me to afford.. but thanks anyways.

@kimanumanu: In bohra theology, the 4 streams in jannat in reality refer to the four sorts of knowledge.

water - zaahir
alcohol - baatin or taweel us zaahir
milk - hikmat
honey - haqeeqat

haqeeqat is mainly the theology explaining these topics:

1. how did it start.
2. why are we here
3. how do we get back
4. how does it end. (this part of the theology is the rarest i believe)

main sub topics are:

1. who is the imam
2. why can there be no moment on earth without one.



these theologies are shared across a few sects.. the ismaili one is supposed to be the most indepth...


@ ghulam mohammed : yes i have heard of that.. it is appalling that such vile things are being spread... though i will say that in this day and age these punters would never dare to claim imammate. they would start a war.. and abdes are not good warriors...

It is such a shame that bohras are falling to this bullshit just because they have been denied knowledge of our sect... If only they were to know that there were 4 more martabas between imaam and dai al mutlaq, they would stop worshiping this guy...



@ al - noor: i doubt they will ever say the dai is god... this would throw us in the same group as ahmadis which will signal a war with the rest of the world the abdes will not take part in...

@ biradar: SKQ is also an imposter. trust me, if he had no competition and would have got the throne, he would be another mufaddal.. it is only to seperate himself from muffy that SKQ is acting so much 'better' and 'cleaner'.... he might be lesser of the two evils...but an imposter none the less... yes, if he were to claim that he is dai nazim and not dai al mutlaq, that would be a game changer.. but that would mean calling his brother and father a fraud .. and he would never dare do that.



true_bohra
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:19 am

#26

Unread post by true_bohra » Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:24 am

ghulam muhammed wrote:
kimanumanu wrote:Does anyone know when they mention "haqeeqat ni kitaab" which books are these? Is it really top secret stuff or books that are in Arabic that have never been translated?
I only know about "Haqqeqat nu bayan" wherein Bohras who have reached the zenith of brainwashing are finally told of the ULTIMATE SECRET which is........ "Haqeeqat maa Dai aj Imamuz zaman che" !! Needless to say that they are given ULTIMATE kasams also so as not to reveal the final revelation !!
ghulam muhammed wrote:
Biradar wrote:Someone has been pulling your leg. There is no such "revelation". These are the type of things which the enemies of Ismailis have been saying for centuries. No truth to it. No da'i has claimed he is the Imam.
Bro Biradar,

It would be difficult for you or many others to believe this but the fact remains that I was told this by a close friend who had attended the final 'Haqeeqat nu sabak'. That person disclosed this after he drifted away from Bohraism, now it is left for anyone to believe him or not as no proof can be provided due to reasons best known to every Bohras. Needless to say that there is no written evidence or any recorded version of the Dai's statement
Gulam Mohammed we have been tired of your and Saifuddin Insaf's secret khabris and the news that they communicate it to you. Have you ever heard in any sabaq that in Haqiqat Dai is the Imam. Being such educated person, do you believe in hearsay??
or as some one pointed out some one is pulling your leg. My genuine advice "TAKE WHAT IS PURE AND THEN BELIEVE"

No da'i has claimed he is the Imam[/b] you cannot bring any self made inference to this statement. This was and will always remain the fact.



Al-Noor
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:55 am

#27

Unread post by Al-Noor » Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:53 am

@ biradar: SKQ is also an imposter. trust me, if he had no competition and would have got the throne, he would be another mufaddal.. it is only to seperate himself from muffy that SKQ is acting so much 'better' and 'cleaner'.... he might be lesser of the two evils...but an imposter none the less... yes, if he were to claim that he is dai nazim and not dai al mutlaq, that would be a game changer.. but that would mean calling his brother and father a fraud .. and he would never dare do that.
so true I agree with it. there is no dai mutlaq.....SKQ must put things correct and call him self dai nizam and give up on all every fancy titles which his father and brother created for them self. none of them posses any quality of dai mutlaq.

I wont even mention muffy name because he dont even have quality of a momeen.



Maqbool
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 4:01 am

#28

Unread post by Maqbool » Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:57 pm

"Have you ever heard in any sabaq that in Haqiqat Dai is the Imam."

But we do hear that dai is ILAHUL ARD.



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

#29

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:04 pm

@true_bohra,

Actually it is senseless to argue with someone who has worn blinders on his eyes and it doesn't make any difference whether a miniscule set of abdes like you agree to what I say and write and BTW you have deliberately chosen to ignore the comments of another member :-
kseeker wrote:@ ghulam mohammed : yes i have heard of that.. it is appalling that such vile things are being spread... though i will say that in this day and age these punters would never dare to claim imammate. they would start a war.. and abdes are not good warriors...It is such a shame that bohras are falling to this bullshit just because they have been denied knowledge of our sect... If only they were to know that there were 4 more martabas between imaam and dai al mutlaq, they would stop worshiping this guy...



true_bohra
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:19 am

#30

Unread post by true_bohra » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:12 am

ghulam muhammed wrote:@true_bohra,

Actually it is senseless to argue with someone who has worn blinders on his eyes and it doesn't make any difference whether a miniscule set of abdes like you agree to what I say and write and BTW you have deliberately chosen to ignore the comments of another member :-
kseeker wrote:@ ghulam mohammed : yes i have heard of that.. it is appalling that such vile things are being spread... though i will say that in this day and age these punters would never dare to claim imammate. they would start a war.. and abdes are not good warriors...It is such a shame that bohras are falling to this bullshit just because they have been denied knowledge of our sect... If only they were to know that there were 4 more martabas between imaam and dai al mutlaq, they would stop worshiping this guy...
and aren't you the one who views everything with JUST hate