NASS CONFERRED

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
truth seeker100
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 5:54 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#301

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:05 am

haqniwaat wrote:We don't believe in five pillars, we believe in seven. I don't even think you're Shia, so why are you even bothering us on this board. Please go away to your terrorist Wahabi friends who have ruined the name of Islam!
actually bohras have ruined the name of islam, by going back to their Hindu origins and worshipping a dai. Just show me proof of your claims. just claiming that it is a bohra belief dosent justify it. SHOW ME PROOF. and if you think I am a wahabi because I'm asking for proof then so be it!



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#302

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:47 am

Kothar Inc has used walayat concept very shrewdly to enforce their authority. There shall be walayat for everyone, its not a rocket science neither it is an intellectual property of shias towards ahle bayt. One must have walayat for everything that stands for justice, compassion and other goody goody virtues to make this world a better place. Now shiaas will jump and say that ahle bayt is the only people on this world wide entire universe to have these goody goody values and along with these the hatred for their enemies is compulsory. I disagree with shia mentality only on one point. “the Hatred” because as far as I understand, even ahle bayt did not promote any hatred towards any particular personality in-spite of those who may have caused harm or distress to them. They stood for principles be it against yazid or hitler ! today’s shia lap up hatred with convenience and in fact enjoy spewing laanat instead of genuine grief, realization and learning to take from suffering of ahle bayt.

It must be an interesting psychological study on understanding hate politics to conquer and rule. History is replete with examples of hate politics and yet we humans learn nothing. People respond to hatred more passionately than call for love and co-existence.

Have walayat for the virtues that a person holds, because those virtues will remain and the person will perish. That is why it is important to follow a leader using your intellect, because; Hitler & Mother Tereasa both are leaders but with different virtues !



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#303

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:11 pm

Excerpts from a post by Bro Porus which is relevant to the debate :-

You insist on Walayat as one of the pillars of Islam. Does Quran state that it is a pillar? It does not. Walayat is a theological extension by Fatimids of the ayat of ‘muwaddata al-qurba’ (42:23), among others, to provide a political lynchpin to their empire. The ayat has been interpreted variously. You invest emotional charge into one interpretation. As a scholar, I consider competing interpretations and their implications. Is Muhammad asking for love of ‘his’ relatives’ or is he asking for love of ‘your’ relatives? That is one difference. There are others.

And which relatives would you consider? How about the line of twelver Imams or the Aga Khan or Zaydi Imams or Imams from Hasan’s progeny. They are all from Muhammad’s qurbat. Do you love them equally? Why not? (There is no answer to that question, unless you plumb the depth of a barrel of bigotry). Add to that the fact that no Dai has ever been from within Muhammad’s qurbat. (As a matter of historical record, when did the love for Dai become a pillar? Did Hurrat al-Malika claim that for the Dai she appointed?)

As to the ayats asking you to follow ulul amr, I would argue that this is a recommendation and, in any case, there is a dispute about who ulul amr are in this day and age. Just like competing Imams and Mawlanas, it is quite arbitrary whom you follow except that you invest emotional charge with the explanation that you have been brainwashed with. That does not give you any right to deny anyone else the same benefit. Dawoodi Bohras may be brought up with strong beliefs like you or not. They retain the right to belong to community because ultimately it is a cultural group with shared traditions not primarily a group slavishly attached to the Dai.

If a person displays his love for the Dai, how can you judge if it pleases Allah? Only Allah can judge. And if a person does not display his love for the Dai but otherwise is true to the Quran as he understands it, how can anyone other that Allah judge him? And how can anyone even think that that becomes the reason for severing the familial ties that Allah Himself has created.

With regard to the pillars of Islam, if a person does not offer namaaz, does he cease being a Dawoodi Bohra? His Islam may be questioned, but only by Allah.

If a person does not fast during Ramazan, does he cease being a Dawoodi Bohra? His Islam may be questioned, but only by Allah.

If a person does not always follow the rules of ‘tahaarat’, does he cease being a Dawoodi Bohra? His Islam may be questioned, but only by Allah.

If a person does not always pay his zakaat, does he cease being a Dawoodi Bohra? His Islam may be questioned, but only by Allah. (This is a thorny one. Because it involves money for the Dai, who claims that he is not accountable for disbursement of zakaat he collects, he may well be judged by other than Allah. You may wish to enlighten us about this lack of accountability on his part with reference to the Quran. And does Quran say if you can judge the person who does not pay his zakaat to the Dai?).

If a person does not engage in Jihad, does he cease being a Dawoodi Bohra? His Islam may be questioned, but only by Allah.

If a person does not perform Haj, does he cease being a Dawoodi Bohra? His Islam may be questioned, but only by Allah.

I think that you will find Dawoodi Bohras in categories ranging from those absolutely devoted to pillars to those who could not care less. I am sure you know some yourself.

For practical purposes, the difference between Dawoodi Bohras is between those who have paid their dues to the Jamaat and those who have not. If a Bohra wants to use facilities of the Jamaat then, he will have to pay up. The quality of his ‘faith’ is immaterial.

I think that I have demonstrated that your stance is unacceptable and has an aura of fanaticism and bigotry associated with it. A Dawoodi Bohra is the one who is born to Dawoodi Bohra parents. That is Allah’s wish. You have no say in severing that bond. If you do, it can never be in service of Allah but an action of a political dupe.

Let me repeat, if you invest emotional charge into what are simply specific interpretations of history you have been brain-washed with and consider them exclusive ‘truth’, you become a potential pawn in power games of the rich and powerful. And you should be aware of Quran’s warnings to the rich and powerful.



haqniwaat
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:06 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#304

Unread post by haqniwaat » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:33 pm

Mr. Ghulaam Muhammad,
I don't understand why you continue to hang around this group because you are neither Bohra (Sulaimani, Alia, or Dawoodi) nor are you Shia (all Shias believe in 7 pillars).
And here the subject is "Nass Conferred". So I would kindly request you to either talk about the subject or find another subject group. Your SHOUTING out loud is deafening my ears. There are lots of Wahabi groups; go join one, please! And yes, terrorist Wahabis have caused more harm to Islam than anyone else. I suppose you've never been to the West.



truth seeker100
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 5:54 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#305

Unread post by truth seeker100 » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:17 pm

haqniwaat wrote:Mr. Ghulaam Muhammad,
I don't understand why you continue to hang around this group because you are neither Bohra (Sulaimani, Alia, or Dawoodi) nor are you Shia (all Shias believe in 7 pillars).
And here the subject is "Nass Conferred". So I would kindly request you to either talk about the subject or find another subject group. Your SHOUTING out loud is deafening my ears. There are lots of Wahabi groups; go join one, please! And yes, terrorist Wahabis have caused more harm to Islam than anyone else. I suppose you've never been to the West.
mr haqnidawat, this is a public forum and anyone can join and express their views here. you don't own this forum so u don't have the right to tell people not to visit this forum. and wahabis maybe causing problems in the west but in India it is your dai and kothar who are making bohras their slave. and again I'm asking you show me proof. I bet you don't have any that's why you go trying to call other people names like wahabi and trying to change the subject



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#306

Unread post by humanbeing » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:03 am

Abdes are the “wahabi” of bohradom



haqniwaat
Posts: 516
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:06 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#307

Unread post by haqniwaat » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:29 pm

Is anyone going to take this topic back to the topic?
And truthseeker101, no, I am not required to give you proof of anything regarding Bohra beliefs since you obviously are not a Bohra. You have the right to believe what you want, nobody is stopping you, but you are filling up this board with things that have nothing to do with Bohras. I'm sorry you cannot understand that.



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#308

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:59 pm

haqniwaat wrote:And here the subject is "Nass Conferred". So I would kindly request you to either talk about the subject or find another subject group.
Read your earlier posts wherein you were bent on harping on the "walayat" issue in the debate with Bro Humsafar and since YOU had raised the "walayat" issue on the "Nass Conferred" thread, I posted excerpts of an earlier post which were relevant to your debate.
haqniwaat wrote:Your SHOUTING out loud is deafening my ears.
I didn't know that just ONE post from me made you deaf !!
haqniwaat wrote:There are lots of Wahabi groups; go join one, please!
Aha and here you reveal your true colours of an abde who are famous for labelling anyone a wahabi when you fall short of arguments. If you cannot debate rationally then better pack up instead of making foolish remarks.
haqniwaat wrote: And yes, terrorist Wahabis have caused more harm to Islam than anyone else. I suppose you've never been to the West.
No one in the right mind would deny the above but please direct your ire to the Talibans and other such groups as this site doesn't have anyone from these groups as its members.



alam
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:15 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#309

Unread post by alam » Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:01 pm

truth seeker100 wrote:
love for the imam isn't going to get you to heaven. following the five pillars and doing good deeds will. I can show you proof if you want.
I would certainly like to see "proof" of this too. While at it, what is the yardstick to measure "proof"?
How does one have Proof of such things?

Last time I checked, proof is not a word even scientists use in their evidence. They use terms like their studies "support" Their theories, or "support" their Assumptions A, B, C etc.. Of course, one might claim religion is not a science.
Really? There are people who do scientific studies on religion, and the science behind religion, etc.

We merely chose to include instances that support our theories as "proof", and safely provide other instances that disprove our opponents theories or assumptions. And we think we are engaging in intelligent discussion.

By Using words such as "proof" and "evidence" our discussions get quite skewed. It gives us the illusion of credibility when there is none.

Truthseeker100, haqniwaat, GM, etc, Anyone, if you can discuss hell/heaven existence along lines of credibility, at least we can then have an honest discussion. Otherwise we are talking about faith under the guise of pseudo-scientific terms like "proof".



ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#310

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:26 pm

alam wrote:Truthseeker100, haqniwaat, GM, etc, Anyone, if you can discuss hell/heaven existence along lines of credibility, at least we can then have an honest discussion.
I don't think there is anything more credible then the Holy Quran which mentions its existence in many ayahs.



khokawala
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:49 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#311

Unread post by khokawala » Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:49 am

nice to see this succession issue was correctly discussed even before.



kimanumanu
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#312

Unread post by kimanumanu » Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:39 am

Only stumbled on to this thread whilst searching for something else. A very good historical record of the current split and hopefully it will help to educate others.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#313

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:09 am

Extract taken from "Board Lurching Towards Oblivion? " thread and expressing thoughts in the related thread of nuss
Biradar wrote:As we know, within a generation of the Prophet, Muawiya (LA) and Aisha rose against Ali, Hassan was poisoned by his own wife, and soon after Imam Hussain had to take a stand against the corrupt and wicked rule of Yazid (LA). Hence, it is clear, that even the immediate family of the Prophet, in this case his son-in-law and his wife rose against the rightful successor. So can we claim that the Prophet was weak? Not infallible? Not the Perfect Man? We live in the physical world, with all the weaknesses and limitations that implies.
In case of SMB-SKQ –SMS these are relationship by blood, I mean, SMS upbringing happened in the household of SMB. STS and SMB were in supreme command of their family’s upbringing. A wife, A son in Law etc join the family from outside and carry different upbringing perspectives and develop opinions as they explore the newly joined family. Where as SMS and his gang are the kids raised by STS and SMB themselves. Their tarbiyat happened at the hands of duats and yet they could harbor hatred, jealousy and insecurity towards their brethren and/or uncle who is appointed at higher rutba.

This hatred and shameless mockery is very unmannerly for a “royal” duaat and his hudoods to display … One cannot totally blame STS and SMB for these brat and shameless bullying behavior, but somewhere SMS and his gang has been raised unchecked of their personality traits that got developed. I would somewhat do blame STS and SMB for the oversight and free hand that turned into the monster it is today.

If one is to refer STS and SMB history, they too have bullied and defamed their opponents …so these personality trait would have been engrained in their upbringing of kids.. STS and SMB would not have imagined that their own child/brother would be bullied, ostracized and defamed by their own kinds.

One can say … SMB did try and maintain secrecy of internal conflicts not to spill in public and shake the confidence for simple reason that it would affect loyality and fund collections, nothing to do with people’s Imaaan and spiritual dependence on them. If SMB had been concerned, cautious and foresighted for the community’s spiritual guidance (which does not require divine power of unknown) given the situation in the family he was privy to. He would have made a clear declaration of his successor as mansoos or next dai whicheve applicable.

All this secretbaazi and talwaro chaali jaati fears coming from their own brethren and kids is sad state of royal family and does not make them fit to lead a community … STS, SMB or SKQ have to raise themselves above the petty hate mongering amongst the family if they wished to hold rutba of divine leadership and stuff. These guys are suppose to be guided and protected by allah and noor of imam .. declare themselves dai of imam hussein …

Citing example of Imam ali, Imam hussein and prophet does not make sense as they fought diligently against any atrocity that came from outside or inside of family … in whichever way they upheld the virtues of Islam over and above petty family issues and were not restricted in their decision making for bigger good,

We can only console ourselves to secure our fears stating that .. “Allahs knows best, why SMB, STS and SKQ behaved the way they did” while the situation clears up pretty much exposing their incompetence to claim divine and supreme leadership with infallibility and perfection.



humanbeing
Posts: 2195
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:30 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#314

Unread post by humanbeing » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:43 am

One would rather respect a leader who admits to be human, fallible, open to audit, criticism and corrections rather than pompous, arrogant and cocky about his divine infallibility in face of glaring incompetence seen.

SMS has damaged the community psyche a lot. Nice, affable and tolerant folks have become aggressive, hate mongers and intolerant in zeal of following this grumpy SMS.

While SKQ camp has weak evidences of their successor ship to gain loyalty of masses. only hope is over time their conduct will differentiate them as real leadership material or just another messed up family. as the practices remains same. Kadambosi, bowing and bending, self glorification ...



bohra_manus
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:37 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#315

Unread post by bohra_manus » Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:29 am

humanbeing wrote:Extract taken from "Board Lurching Towards Oblivion? " thread and expressing thoughts in the related thread of nuss
Biradar wrote:As we know, within a generation of the Prophet, Muawiya (LA) and Aisha rose against Ali, Hassan was poisoned by his own wife, and soon after Imam Hussain had to take a stand against the corrupt and wicked rule of Yazid (LA). Hence, it is clear, that even the immediate family of the Prophet, in this case his son-in-law and his wife rose against the rightful successor. So can we claim that the Prophet was weak? Not infallible? Not the Perfect Man? We live in the physical world, with all the weaknesses and limitations that implies.
In case of SMB-SKQ –SMS these are relationship by blood, I mean, SMS upbringing happened in the household of SMB. STS and SMB were in supreme command of their family’s upbringing. A wife, A son in Law etc join the family from outside and carry different upbringing perspectives and develop opinions as they explore the newly joined family. Where as SMS and his gang are the kids raised by STS and SMB themselves. Their tarbiyat happened at the hands of duats and yet they could harbor hatred, jealousy and insecurity towards their brethren and/or uncle who is appointed at higher rutba.

This hatred and shameless mockery is very unmannerly for a “royal” duaat and his hudoods to display … One cannot totally blame STS and SMB for these brat and shameless bullying behavior, but somewhere SMS and his gang has been raised unchecked of their personality traits that got developed. I would somewhat do blame STS and SMB for the oversight and free hand that turned into the monster it is today.

If one is to refer STS and SMB history, they too have bullied and defamed their opponents …so these personality trait would have been engrained in their upbringing of kids.. STS and SMB would not have imagined that their own child/brother would be bullied, ostracized and defamed by their own kinds.

One can say … SMB did try and maintain secrecy of internal conflicts not to spill in public and shake the confidence for simple reason that it would affect loyality and fund collections, nothing to do with people’s Imaaan and spiritual dependence on them. If SMB had been concerned, cautious and foresighted for the community’s spiritual guidance (which does not require divine power of unknown) given the situation in the family he was privy to. He would have made a clear declaration of his successor as mansoos or next dai whicheve applicable.

All this secretbaazi and talwaro chaali jaati fears coming from their own brethren and kids is sad state of royal family and does not make them fit to lead a community … STS, SMB or SKQ have to raise themselves above the petty hate mongering amongst the family if they wished to hold rutba of divine leadership and stuff. These guys are suppose to be guided and protected by allah and noor of imam .. declare themselves dai of imam hussein …

Citing example of Imam ali, Imam hussein and prophet does not make sense as they fought diligently against any atrocity that came from outside or inside of family … in whichever way they upheld the virtues of Islam over and above petty family issues and were not restricted in their decision making for bigger good,

We can only console ourselves to secure our fears stating that .. “Allahs knows best, why SMB, STS and SKQ behaved the way they did” while the situation clears up pretty much exposing their incompetence to claim divine and supreme leadership with infallibility and perfection.
Very well said bhai Humanbeing.



think
Posts: 1764
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:15 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#316

Unread post by think » Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:58 pm

It is cowardice to say Allah knows best. Allah has given you the brains , make use of it. Imam Bakir was once asked how to know if a religious leader is real or fake. His response" if he does anything against the quran , then he is not a religious leader.