NASS CONFERRED

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Humsafar
Posts: 2509
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#61

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:16 pm

I tend to agree with all those who have raised doubts about the way this latest episode of Nass has come to pass. Given the history of successions - and sects and divisions it has created - modern day leaders should make all attempts to make this process as transparent as possible.
The more learned amongst us can verify whether the process as described by Insaf saheb in another thread has been prescribed in our source books. But really, that is beside the point. The way the latest Nass has been conferred is exactly the way it should NOT be done - from the privacy of a hospital bed, by a Dai who has suffered a stroke, and among his sons as only witness. This looks like a last-minute, desperate deal - which is to be expected from a Dai and his sons who have made the Dawat their family fiefdom. There is not even a pretence at transparency, such is their arrogance. And why not. They know that abde sheep will accept whatever is thrown at them. Well, they will not only accept but go epileptic on being blessed with "magnificent mansoos". Talk of slaves enjoying their slavery!
But of course all doubts can be put rest if Sayedna saheb makes a public announcement. Let's hope our Imam will advise him to do so.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#62

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:40 pm

Bro humsafar,

You have aptly put everything in its right perspective. You have described the situation very well in a nutshell.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#63

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:45 pm

Hussain_KSA wrote:Wierd information and news is arriving, I hope by the Friday everything will be clear.
Bro Hussain_KSA,

You are perfectly right as even I have got some news which cannot be made public at this time as it will unneccessarily create a furore and it will be very very difficult for many to digest the same. Hence, wait and watch. I will elaborate on the same at an appropriate time.

voice
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:08 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#64

Unread post by voice » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:13 pm

every incident that has happened seems to be planned and doubtful. why no audio-video relay/clip of nass ?
secondly, testimony of all the witness of nass except one seems to be not eligible according to shariah ?
why no news about health condition of 52nd ?

voice
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:08 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#65

Unread post by voice » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:20 pm

accountability wrote:Profastian: People on this borad has all the ideas how dawat runs, not actually how dawat is run administratively but theologically. You have been here for some times. You should appreciate the level of knowledge about fatimi, mustaali, tayebi, dawoodi doctorine, some on this board have.

They are not only well versed with religious knowledge but very educated in contemperory knowledge. When I said, that Imam's ilham is pre requisite for nass, I was quoting Syedna Saheb. I have heard him say that. Two years ago in mumbai waaz, he said that Dai will pass on dawat to next Dai with Imam's Ilham.

Dai will pass on dawat to next dai, keeping in view Imam's ilham and qualities laid out by previous dais. Dai again is in continuation of precedence before him. He is not dai in air. Though in imam's seclusion He yields his authoriy from precedence and literature left by dawat's pioneer.

Daim ul Islam is one such book. You are well aware of others. Let me put it here, so that you know that we have ideas.

Books and Risaal that Dai refers to

Kitab-ul-Iydhah,
Mukhtasar-ul-Iydhah, written by the farman of Imam Mehdi (A.S.)
Al-Akhbar fil Fiqh, in 13 sections
Mukhtasar-ul-Aasaar
Daim-ul-Islam, volumes 1 and 2
Minhaaj-ul-Fara'iz
Al Iqtisaar
Al Arjuzatul Muntakhabah
Al Ittifaaq wal Iftiraaq, containing 140 sections
Al Muqtasar, which is a short version of Al Ittifaq wal Iftiraq'
Kitab-ul-Yanbu',
Sherhul Akhbar, separated into 16 sections
Qaseeda Zaat-ul-Mahn, regarding Dajjaal' incidents
Qaseeda Zaat-ul-Minan, zikr of Imam Moiz's Barakaat
Kitabo Manaqib-e-Bani Hashim wa Mathalib-e-Bani Umaiyyah, written during the reign of Imam Moiz
Iftitah-ud-Dawat, written about the Zuhur in West Africa in 346 h.
Taaweel-ud-Daim, 16 sections
Asaas-ut-Taaweel, Taaweel of the lives of Prophets
At-Tawheed wal Imaamat, taken from Nahjul-Balaaghah
Ithbaat-ul Haqaaiq fi Ma'refat-e Tawheed-il Khaaliq
Kitabo Hudud-il Ma'refat fi Tafseeril Quran wat-Tanbeeh-e alat-Taaweel,17 sections
Kitab fil Imaamat, 4 sections
Ikhtilaaf-o Usul-il Mazaahib, 2 sections, regarding the philosophy of disagreement
Nahj-us-Sabeel ila Ma'refat-e Ilm-it-Taaweel, 2 sections
Kitabo Ibadat-e Yawmin wa Lail
Kitab-ut-Tahaarat, which has 3 sections: Tahaarat, Salaat, and Janaaiz
Qaseeda-tul Mukhtaar
Kitab-ul Himmah fi Aadaab-e Atba'il Aimmat, in two sections
Ar-Risalat-il Misriyyah fir-radd-e alash-Shafiee
Kitab-ur-radd-e an Ahmed Sareej Al-Baghdaadee, 2 sections
Risaalat Zaatul-Bayaan fir-radde ala ibne Qateebah
Damigh-ul Mujiz fir-radde alal Atqaa
Kitaab-ud-Dua, in two sections
Kitaab-ul Huly was-Siyaab
Kitaab-ush-Shurut
Kitabo Manaamaatil Aimmat
Kitabo Taawil-ir Ru'yah
Kitab-ut Tafri-it-Ta'neefe leman lam ya'lamil Ilma wa yataghatat-Ta'neef
Kitabo Kaifiyat-is-Salaat-e alan-Nabi
Tarbiyatil Momin, a letter to the Dai of Misr
Kitab-ut Ta'aqub wal Inqiyaad
Kitab-ul Majaalis wal Musairaat wal Mawaaqif wat-Tawqeefaat, 4 sections
Ma'alim-ul Huda, a collection of examples, lessons and teachings
Mafaateehun-Naemat
Kitab-ul Huruf
Kitabo Muwazat-it-Taaweel,
syedna Hatim's book Tuhfatul Qulub also deal with this subject.
In Hindi it is said "Jungle me mor nacha kisne dekha" ???

Biradar
Posts: 866
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#66

Unread post by Biradar » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:58 pm

Humsafar wrote:I tend to agree with all those who have raised doubts about the way this latest episode of Nass has come to pass. Given the history of successions - and sects and divisions it has created - modern day leaders should make all attempts to make this process as transparent as possible.
It is actually irrelevant if the da'i himself makes the announcement or does it through someone else. There is no particular requirement and choosing his successor is entirely his choice. Even in cases when the nass has been declared publicly there have been instances of disputes and schisms have occurred. Also, it is not unlikely that the nass was actually performed a long time ago and the sayedna has now chosen to make it public. Also, it is possible that he personally will make it public in a few days. After all, he is still sick and can not just hobble out to satisfy the skeptics.

Anyway, as far as bohras are concerned, this is fait accompli. They have now someone else to worship for the rest of their lives. Things will just be as usual, nothing really will change. Perhaps da'i worship will get even stronger as a generation of those who knew otherwise is being swept aside. As you said, it is business as usual.

asif786
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:40 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#67

Unread post by asif786 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:48 am

ghulam muhammed wrote:
Hussain_KSA wrote:Wierd information and news is arriving, I hope by the Friday everything will be clear.
Bro Hussain_KSA,

You are perfectly right as even I have got some news which cannot be made public at this time as it will unneccessarily create a furore and it will be very very difficult for many to digest the same. Hence, wait and watch. I will elaborate on the same at an appropriate time.
Br GM

What is this important information you are not sharing? Yesterday somebody ask me what will happen if syedna passes away without proclaming the nass on audio or video , will the bohras except the nass based on the words of Qaid Joher? how will mazum sahed and his family react to this? There are many questions like this which needs to be answered very soon .....

ozmujaheed
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:14 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#68

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:25 am

All of a sudden the tech savy Abdes have no live broadcast no audio

What could be more critical than nass unless this is a scam

Where were his mazuim and mukasir as witnesses or independent hudud

So until there is proper handover like 52 got from 51 where he publicly delegated authority and god forbid the next will always be questioned and future splits are on the horizon

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#69

Unread post by accountability » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:09 am

As I said, now they are saying it is nass jali. Though in Dawat e hadiya communique it did not say that Maula has done nass jali.
well like biradar said, it will be business as usual, But I do think that Syedi Muffadal Bhaisaheb will not have such strong grip over affairs, as Syedna Burhanuddin had. But for some time it will remain same.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#70

Unread post by porus » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:15 am

accountability wrote:As I said, now they are saying it is nass jali.
Brother, please spell this is 'nass jalli' with two l's. jali (actually, jaali) means false in Urdu! :)

Or did you really mean 'false'?

An e-mail forwarded to me from Jeddah:

date Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 2:38 AM
subject Syedi Molai Mufaddal Bs
signed-by yahoo.com

"Aqa Maula (TUS) Ye Syedi Molai Mufaddal Bs Saifuddin Saheb Par 4th Rajab 1432H Ye Nas Farmavi (04/07/1432H = 4+7+1+4+3+2 = 21 ).

Ye Dalalat Kare Che Ke Imam U Zaman Na Dai Ye Imam U Zaman Na Ilham Si Nas Farmavi..."


Color added by me.

Biradar
Posts: 866
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#71

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:49 am

porus wrote:"Aqa Maula (TUS) Ye Syedi Molai Mufaddal Bs Saifuddin Saheb Par 4th Rajab 1432H Ye Nas Farmavi (04/07/1432H = 4+7+1+4+3+2 = 21 ).

Ye Dalalat Kare Che Ke Imam U Zaman Na Dai Ye Imam U Zaman Na Ilham Si Nas Farmavi..."
Color added by me.
Yes, that absolutely proves that the Imam has inspired this nass. Also, one must also notice that 04/07/1432 can be split as 4+7 = 11, 1+4 = 5 and 3+2 = 5. Then, we split 11 as 1+1 = 2. Then, we subtract this from 5 = 5-2 = 3. Then we put this together with 5 to get 53!!!

See the nirali shaan!! Even the date the nass was conferred was picked to say that the dai got ilham from the Imam (21) to appoint his mansoos (53). Please no more doubts, just accept this miraculous facts and fall on your knees and beseech both molas to forgive your sins and hold your hand and lead you into janaat.

Also notice that 53 - 2 (2 from 1+1) gives 51. Taher Saifuddin mola has predicted by writing on a notebook that Ali Qadar Muffadul would be the da'i after 52. Also, he is once credited to have said that "after Saifuddin there will be Saifuddin". See, all these signs were there for everyone to see. The ones having a veil over their eyes never saw the obvious, but of course all this was predestined, written in the Ummul Kitab.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#72

Unread post by porus » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:05 am

Biradar,

That was absolutely brilliant! A smashing piece of analysis! I am convinced!! :wink:

Sort of Al Zulfiqaresque, wouldn't you say? And where is he? I do miss his comments.

Humsafar
Posts: 2509
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#73

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:11 am

Nice. Now that I see the numbers I'm convinced too! :)

SBM
Posts: 6226
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#74

Unread post by SBM » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:08 pm

04/07/1432
Let us create the formula
(4 multiply by 7) + (1)+ (4 multiply by 3 multiply by 2) equal 53 which is wow wow wow

Ajnabi
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:13 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#75

Unread post by Ajnabi » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:46 pm

Hello everyone,

I was referred to this site by my friend Jonah Blank. I am a doctoral student at Harvard working on the impacts of centralized leadership on perceptions and beliefs in monotheistic religions, particularly Islam and Christianity. I have been following the "nass" topic here, and I would like to ask you guys a few questions. Please acknowledge if that is O.K. with you guys.

Many thanks for your assistance.

Ajnabi

SBM
Posts: 6226
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#76

Unread post by SBM » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:06 pm

Dear Ajnabi
Good Luck and any help please feel free to contact me via PM or open discussion and for all those who think this Forum or the movement is doomed, here is the answer, this forum is a nice referral for scholars
Last edited by SBM on Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#77

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:06 pm

Please fire away.

Humsafar
Posts: 2509
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#78

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:37 pm

Welcome Ajnabi. You've come to the right place. It's more than OK with us if you ask questions. In fact, this is the only place in the "bohra universe" where one can ask questions without the fear of being rebuked and ex-communicated. Ironically, even adbes (the orthodox blind followers of Sayedna) come here to exercise their much denied freedom of speech. So, as anajmi says, fire away!!

profastian
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#79

Unread post by profastian » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:55 pm

I guess you should ask questions from a Dawoodi Bohra rather than these Munafiqs. They have no idea what Bohraism is about

SBM
Posts: 6226
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#80

Unread post by SBM » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:31 pm

Pro
That is why Jonah Blank referred him as he was not given free access to Syedna for his book Mullah on the mainframe. Jonah Blank knows very well and gave the right advice for the best information one can get at this forum rather that Kothari controlled websites

Humsafar
Posts: 2509
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#81

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:33 pm

profastian wrote:I guess you should ask questions from a Dawoodi Bohra rather than these Munafiqs. They have no idea what Bohraism is about
Do you have a public forum where we can ask questions?

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#82

Unread post by porus » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:04 pm

Ajnabi wrote:Hello everyone,

I was referred to this site by my friend Jonah Blank. I am a doctoral student at Harvard working on the impacts of centralized leadership on perceptions and beliefs in monotheistic religions, particularly Islam and Christianity. I have been following the "nass" topic here, and I would like to ask you guys a few questions. Please acknowledge if that is O.K. with you guys.

Many thanks for your assistance.

Ajnabi

Ajnabi,

Let me add my support to those who have welcomed your questions. From this forum, you are most likely to get insights into the working of the Dawoodi Bohra centralized leadership and how they manage to steer religious beliefs of the Bohras, especially those related to Baatini interpretation of religious texts, to serve the interests of the ruling elite. In this, Bohras are similar to other 'cultish' organizations like the Ismailies (Aga Khanis) and the Druze. They may have views on other cults but, I suspect, not much knowledge of their internal working as they tend to be secretive.

I am assuming you are concentrating mainly, or only, on religious leadership, although it would be difficult to separate religious leadership from other types of leadership in Muslim countries.

As this thread is specifically for Nass, you may wish to start another thread with the subject you wish to discuss.

profastian
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#83

Unread post by profastian » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:14 pm

porus wrote:
Ajnabi wrote:Hello everyone,

I was referred to this site by my friend Jonah Blank. I am a doctoral student at Harvard working on the impacts of centralized leadership on perceptions and beliefs in monotheistic religions, particularly Islam and Christianity. I have been following the "nass" topic here, and I would like to ask you guys a few questions. Please acknowledge if that is O.K. with you guys.

Many thanks for your assistance.

Ajnabi

Ajnabi,

Let me add my support to those who have welcomed your questions. From this forum, you are most likely to get insights into the working of the Dawoodi Bohra centralized leadership and how they manage to steer religious beliefs of the Bohras, especially those related to Baatini interpretation of religious texts, to serve the interests of the ruling elite. In this, Bohras are similar to other 'cultish' organizations like the Ismailies (Aga Khanis) and the Druze. They may have views on other cults but, I suspect, not much knowledge of their internal working as they tend to be secretive.

I am assuming you are concentrating mainly, or only, on religious leadership, although it would be difficult to separate religious leadership from other types of leadership in Muslim countries.

As this thread is specifically for Nass, you may wish to start another thread with the subject you wish to discuss.
And who is going to provide this insight. deluded oafs like you?

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#84

Unread post by accountability » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:10 pm

Porus, I dare not say Jali(.....) Next time I will say Jalli, actually you know the email I got from my jamat spells "Jali". Heaven knows what did they mean.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#85

Unread post by accountability » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:13 pm

Biradar, ingenious nemerology

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#86

Unread post by porus » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:22 pm

accountability wrote:Porus, I dare not say Jali(.....) Next time I will say Jalli, actually you know the email I got from my jamat spells "Jali". Heaven knows what did they mean.
Your jamaat was referring to Progressives/Reformists when they wrote 'nass jali'. As you know this is literally 'burnt vein' meaning 'blood in their veins is burning with jealousy'., Hasad ni aag ma jale chhe. :lol:

musti952
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:12 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#87

Unread post by musti952 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:11 pm

i heared one thing also as nass is conferred mazoon saheb locked the raudat tahera in mumbai and angry about this nass can any body confirm it is true?

Safiuddin
Posts: 546
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#88

Unread post by Safiuddin » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:36 pm

Your jamaat was referring to Progressives/Reformists when they wrote 'nass jali'. As you know this is literally 'burnt vein' meaning 'blood in their veins is burning with jealousy'., Hasad ni aag ma jale chhe.
So Porus, now are you saying that Burhanuddin purposely conferred Nass Jali, knowing full well what the phrase means (since he's a scholar, fluent in Arabic, blah, blah). Hmmmm. It's clear to see who's veins are burning.

Safiuddin
Posts: 546
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#89

Unread post by Safiuddin » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:44 pm

I have to say this - while it's seems apparent that this whole issue of Burhanuddin's successor, etc.
was wholly fabricated by the zaadas, et al.. . . .I've noticed that many Bohris/Reformist Bohris are starting to ask questions
about Mufaddal and his qualifications, the reasons for the absence of Mazoon and Mukasir, etc.

I think that's a really good thing. People need to keep asking questions. I'm no expert on Sharia law, but I would bet
that having three/four "shahid gawa" with a conflict of interest may not be allowed.

Safiuddin
Posts: 546
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#90

Unread post by Safiuddin » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:47 pm

Ajnabi,

I think that it's great you are here. Your perspective, I believe, will be invaluable.
I hope that you comment on that - as we'll all gain from it.