NASS CONFERRED

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
progticide
Posts: 469
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#91

Unread post by progticide » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:32 am

I am being informed by reliable sources in the reformist club that the reformist are bulk procuring ointments like Burnol, Silverex and other burn-relief creams for application on their private parts since last weekend.
The burns have been categorised as 100% Grade 5 burns and they are smelling so vicious and foul that the doctors have refused to treat them and so the source tells me that they are helping each other in the application of these ointments. And although its actually hurting them they are making a show of enjoyment in the act.

profastian
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#92

Unread post by profastian » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:08 am

progticide wrote:I am being informed by reliable sources in the reformist club that the reformist are bulk procuring ointments like Burnol, Silverex and other burn-relief creams for application on their private parts since last weekend.
The burns have been categorised as 100% Grade 5 burns and they are smelling so vicious and foul that the doctors have refused to treat them and so the source tells me that they are helping each other in the application of these ointments. And although its actually hurting them they are making a show of enjoyment in the act.
Good one... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Muslim
Posts: 408
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#93

Unread post by Muslim » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:42 am

1. Why do you have contact with reformists? Isn't that not allowed?
2. What's a grade 5 burn?

It sounds like you need the same ointment but for your mouth. Feel better.

Humsafar
Posts: 2509
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#94

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:35 am

progticide, your pretensions to logic and high intellect always stuck us as false. I'm glad you've abandoned them and taken to your true calling - playing the fool. Sorry to say, even that you can't do so well. You humour has no point.

Ajnabi
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:13 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#95

Unread post by Ajnabi » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:20 pm

I thank you all for welcoming me into your world. I apologize in advance for any questions/perceptions that my seem insulting.

My perspective is of a historian. I look at the impact of structured beliefs like Catholics and the schisms that led to the Protestant movement.

There are several parallels between the Shia religious structure and the Catholics. One obvious difference is the selection of the Pope occurs after the passing of a Pope, and in the case of the Bohras, it seems imperative that a "nass" is conferred before the Syedna passes away. Why is that?

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#96

Unread post by porus » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:46 pm

Ajnabi wrote:.....in the case of the Bohras, it seems imperative that a "nass" is conferred before the Syedna passes away. Why is that?
'nass' is an Arabic word meaning 'to appoint'. The one who is appointed is called 'mansoos', which is the passive participle of 'nass'.

It is the belief of Bohras, and of the Shia in general, that nass is divinely inspired and only the Dai is graced with this inspiration. This ensures continuity of divine guidance for the community. If the Dai dies without announcing a 'mansoos', this chain of divine guidance is broken and the doctrine does not allow it.

Shia believe that regardless of who is in charge of temporal or Khilafal authority, the true Imamat is always in the hands of divinely appointed members of Prophet's descendants through Imam Husain. This doctrine was elaborated by Imam Jafar al-Sadiq. Following the occultation of the last Imam al-Tayyib, the institution of nass was adopted for the Dais as well. Similar claim for the appointment of a Dai is made as for the Imams that a 'mansoos' has the necessary 'ilm' and divine authority to provide guidance and leadership.

ozmujaheed
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:14 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#97

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:48 pm

Ajnabi simple reason catholisism selection is by consensus through a panel of diverse representatives

Bohras successors are appointed by single authority and hence if not done in public any Tom Dick and harry could claim succession

The reason Mufadal has issues to overcome that his dad left it for so long, unless his paa recovers and makes the statement he will he busy cooking up a good reason for such discrete process and buying supporters from within his family

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#98

Unread post by porus » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:33 am

ozmujaheed wrote:
Bohras successors are appointed by single authority and hence if not done in public any Tom Dick and harry could claim succession

The reason Mufadal has issues to overcome that his dad left it for so long, unless his paa recovers and makes the statement he will he busy cooking up a good reason for such discrete process and buying supporters from within his family
Yes, it is essential that Sayedna makes an unequivocal statement of nass in his own record, written or audio-visual. Otherwise, the appointment of Mufaddal bhaisahib will always be suspect. It will be one more nail in the coffin of clearly fictional 'divine' authority being transferred to another human.

Yes, we are told there are witnesses from the Dai's family. But the Dai's family are clearly not independent and bias-free individuals.

Ajnabi
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:13 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#99

Unread post by Ajnabi » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:03 pm

I thank you all for your response. Let me give you a brief perspective of what I am looking at.

The Catholics do elect a Pope. However, the appointment is a result of long contemplation with the Divine power to enable a group of men to select the divinely appointed leader. Afterwords, there are virtually no instances where the election of the Pope has led to dissension, which led to another Pope being selected and a splinter Catholic Group coming to existence.

In the Bohras, you have a very close parallel. The Syedna, by divine intervention,unilaterally appoints the next Syedna. Yet, in the history of Bohras (and I'm focusing on Bohras as a case, not the general schism in Shias, although parallels can be drawn here as well) you have the Alavi Bohras who essentially deny the divine appointment of one Dai, and instead create a parallel system with their own Dais'.

In both Catholics and Bohras, the emphasis is on the Divinity of the Leader. Yet, whether the Leader is elected or selected seems to skew the burden of proof for the Leadership role. Why is that?

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#100

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:10 pm

However, the appointment is a result of long contemplation with the Divine power to enable a group of men to select the divinely appointed leader.
The Syedna, by divine intervention,unilaterally appoints the next Syedna.
Are you stating these as facts? They are not. Either, one of them is lying, or they are both lying. If you consider this, then the answer to your question becomes obvious.

Humsafar
Posts: 2509
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#101

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:17 pm

Ajnabi, there can't be a clear-cut answer to your question. It seems among the catholics the tradition of appointing the pope is firmly established in practice. There is no tradition of challenging such appointment. Among the Ismailis the process has always been rather loose, and the appointment of even the Imams have been routinely challenged throughout their history. So it's no big deal if a dai's "divine" appointment is challenged. I guess it all comes down to greed and power struggle, and hence a lack of transparency. The Vatican system is so strict and tight and its writ so widely accepted that a challenger would stand no chance at all. The good (or bad) news is that the Bohras too have almost reached that stage. Among the general populace there's not even a murmur regarding the validity of the current "nass". It's only on this forum you can hear people openly questioning it.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#102

Unread post by porus » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:22 pm

anajmi wrote: Are you stating these as facts? They are not. Either, one of them is lying, or they are both lying. If you consider this, then the answer to your question becomes obvious.
Yes, that is correct. If he is divinely appointed then, obviously, there is no need for a selection.

In the Dai's case, his appointment would be considered divine and it will be accepted by all Bohras without question. However, the divine Dai has not publicly declared his successor. Non-divine members of his family witnessed him doing that, we are being told. The divine appointee was not with him when he was appointed. So how did divinity get transferred?

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#103

Unread post by porus » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:22 pm

Humsafar wrote: Among the general populace there's not even a murmur regarding the validity of the current "nass". It's only on this forum you can hear people openly questioning it.
That is not my experience. There is a great deal of discussion at least amongst friends and relatives about the way the Nass was announced and there is a a great deal of dissatisfaction; but, clearly, they would not reveal their thoughts to strangers or Jamaat for the reasons we all know well.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#104

Unread post by porus » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:46 pm

My understanding is that, historically, there is already a system similar to the Catholic Convocation of Cardinals for electing the Pope amongst Bohras. This is the hierarchy of Hudood.

If the appointment to the Hudod hierarchy is as described by the Sayedna al-Kirmani, then most of its members will be knowlegeable, pious people from all sectors of the Bohra community, not just from the Dai's family. If, as it has been alleged, that the Dai-in-waiting is in training for a very long time, then Hudood can most beneficially be made privy to his identity under oath of secrecy. Identity of Hudood should be well publicised. And when the time comes to announce the nass in circumstances like the current one, Hudood could confirm it.

If someone thinks that that is exactly what has happened then why the leaked information about dissatisfaction?

Ajnabi
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:13 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#105

Unread post by Ajnabi » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:15 pm

anajmi wrote:
However, the appointment is a result of long contemplation with the Divine power to enable a group of men to select the divinely appointed leader.
The Syedna, by divine intervention,unilaterally appoints the next Syedna.
Are you stating these as facts? They are not. Either, one of them is lying, or they are both lying. If you consider this, then the answer to your question becomes obvious.
No. Merely stating the religious doctrines for the appointments. As an antropologist, our aim is to understand the basis of such belief, not to criticize it.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#106

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:18 pm

Then this is not the right forum to do that study. To understand how the pope is elected, you will have to visit the Vatican and to understand how the Dai is elected you will have to visit the Kothar. Over here you will get personal views and opinions that are skewed by the poster's own personal beliefs.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#107

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:45 pm

If you get a chance to read Dan Brown's Angels and Demons, it will give you a good idea about how a Pope is elected. The kothar will prove to be much more difficult though.

A Dai is like any other corrupt Dictator out there who wants to cling onto his power for as long as he can. And there is a perfectly rational explanation for that. If you look at the example of other corrupt dictator's out there, you will see that as soon as they are releaved of their power, they have to run and hide from their own subjects. They have to live in other countries because their own subjects despise them. It is similar with the Dai. If the Dai were to appoint his successor in public, well before hand, there would be a massive power struggle. The Dai knows this because just like his father didn't trust him, he doesn't trust his son. This is what power does to people. There is no divinity involved over here. Just plain old greed and fear!!

I read a book a long time back about an american/british conspiracy to fool the muslims into believing in a Mahdi who would be a western puppet. They stage a miracle through one of their satellites firing a laser as if a sign from heavens. I think the book was called "The Mahdi". The bohras do not have to worry about the west, their own leaders are doing a great job fooling them!!
Last edited by anajmi on Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.


profastian
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#109

Unread post by profastian » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:18 am

anajmi wrote:If you get a chance to read Dan Brown's Angels and Demons, it will give you a good idea about how a Pope is elected. The kothar will prove to be much more difficult though.
So thats where you get all your information from. Angels and Demons. lolz. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

seeker110
Posts: 1726
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#110

Unread post by seeker110 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:26 am

Prof. where do YOU get your info. from?Read any books lately.Any suggestions.

Humsafar
Posts: 2509
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#111

Unread post by Humsafar » Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:32 am

...to understand how the Dai is elected you will have to visit the Kothar
That's correct. There you'll learn the whole drama behind the making of a dai - the intrigue, politicking, backstabbing, betrayal, conspiracy and what not. And of course, all divinely inspired! And in the meantime, the system of hudud laid out by Saydena Kirmani (as explained by porus) can rot on the very parchment it is written on.

truebohra
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 5:01 am

The Official Positon....

#112

Unread post by truebohra » Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:06 pm

Well Now it would be Interesting to see if Progressive are accepting the Nass of Syedi wa Molai Muffadal Bhaisaheb Saifuddin. Or are contemplating a new brreak away group as they claim current Nass to be controversial.

We can see the history repeating itself. Well it reminds incident from the period of 46th Dai how the mischeif monger created the non existing controversy. But now & here we are wtiness to the same on this forum..


I See the official Mouth Piece (S.Insaf) missing from the forum...

Kaka Akela
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am

Re: The Official Positon....

#113

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:05 pm

This will bring an end to the claims of being a progressive Dawoodi bohra and even to this forum in this name as they will not give misaq to the new Dai. Unless you give new misaq to new Dai you have no right to call yourself a Dawoodi bohra. The Progresswive DB Group as a whole will have to adapt a new name for themselve disengaging from the Dawoodi bohra lineage.

ozmujaheed
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:14 am

Re: The Official Positon....

#114

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:42 pm

I am waiting for someone within the kasreali claiming even in private there was really no nass this tamasha was just to give a sense of continuity so the big revenue stream does not dry up or get deflected somewhere else

This shows abdes don't really care who occupies the seat as long as someone assures them and they feel comfortable on their bus ride to namaste.
Because otherwise they will have to slog it out on their own
About splitting well any chance of mufaddal bohras vs kuzema khandan

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#115

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:53 pm

There is complete silence and absolutely no updates with regard to the dai's health after the stroke on 4th June on kothar sponsored websites viz. malumat, mumineen.org and zeninfosys, whereas every move of his was meticulously tracked by these sites, be it ziyafats or his trips to neighbouring countries or even to other cities of India. It seems that a well rehearsed story is being prepared by the zaadas to dismiss various questions with regard to nass, a story which looks genuine and original although the blind followers dont need much of it.

Has any "raiyat" member of london done deedar of the dai after he proclaimed nass on his son ?

truebohra
Posts: 413
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 5:01 am

Re: The Official Positon....

#116

Unread post by truebohra » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:53 am

Ozmujaheed, So please keep on waiting....... & hallucinating regarding the split within the mainstream.
But still we are waiting the official Progressive 'Bhompu' (trumpet) to blow regarding the nass.

stranger
Posts: 517
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:27 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#117

Unread post by stranger » Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:43 am

anajmi wrote: The Dai knows this because just like his father didn't trust him.
I guess, you might have read this in Novel titled ''My Hallucinations''. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Hussain_KSA
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

Re: The Official Positon....

#118

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:58 am

Kaka Akela wrote:This will bring an end to the claims of being a progressive Dawoodi bohra and even to this forum in this name as they will not give misaq to the new Dai. Unless you give new misaq to new Dai you have no right to call yourself a Dawoodi bohra. The Progresswive DB Group as a whole will have to adapt a new name for themselve disengaging from the Dawoodi bohra lineage.

Kaka Akela,

Dai is still there and only nass conferred. Progressive never disputed the nass and this time too I think there will be no problem about it. Regarding the misaq, it is for Imam and not for Dai. Dawoodi bohra lineage is not personal property of an indiviual or family. So it is out of question diengaging from it. Our problem is not with office of the dai but managment of affairs specially finance. So please dont creat further rift and hope for the new era of prosperity and brotherhood. We don't want further spilit.

anajmi
Posts: 13402
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#119

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:29 pm

No. I got that from "52,000 ways to enslave abde idiots".

alifiya09
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 1:02 pm

Re: NASS CONFERRED

#120

Unread post by alifiya09 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:40 pm

what does abdee mean?? what do they do?
i mean i find most of the people against them.....why?