Question to all Bohras

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
sakeena1990
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:01 am

Question to all Bohras

#1

Unread post by sakeena1990 » Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:27 pm

I'm 18 and lately a few things have been bugging me about our way of life. I will post them one by one hoping to get answers from you all. I don't classify myself as a reformist nor as a blind follower as well. I, like many of my friends have begun to seek clear reasoning for whatever we do based on Quranic teachings which in my humble opinion is our canon law.

What question is: If our's is the true faith, why don't we invite non muslims or even muslims for that matter to our Bohra faith? Isn't it simple logic, can't we make God happier by inviting people to the correct path? I mean if people out there are misled or deviated from the straight path why don't we embrace them? Instead why are we such a secretive "sect"?? Why are we encouraged to conceal our beliefs and cut ourselves off from other muslims sects?

This is my first post and I humbly ask you all not to insult or defile me. No one brainwashed me nor have I been possessed by some evil force!! So please be gentle with me. Thank you.

humble_servant_us
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#2

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:20 am

What question is: If our's is the true faith, why don't we invite non muslims or even muslims for that matter to our Bohra faith?
This question itself has a answer to it.

Why doesn't the true faith people do not invite others. A good question to ponder about. I do not want to confuse you, so leave it to you to ponder and research.

makberi
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#3

Unread post by makberi » Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:36 am

The Nizaris are known to be actively working to increase converts...atleast from wat i hve heard...i guess to attract converts u need funds and most converts wud be poor ppl so just more mouths to feed with little increase in income for the kothar!!!.....

S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#4

Unread post by S. Insaf » Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:11 am

Dear sak90,
Welcome to the board. The conversion was necessary in Abbasid period as it was the political necessity of the Imams than and Dais were employed for this purpose. Since this mission is now over there is no need of Dai. He can remain at the most as a religious guide and nothing more. Today our duty is to be faithful to our faith in teachings of Islam, Quran and our community's traditions.

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#5

Unread post by SBM » Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:07 am

Salaam
Sak has asked a very good question, When you call your self a DAWAT it means inviting, lately among Bohra hierarchy it has become acceptable norm to kick people out who asked too many questions
In USA and specially where I go for Jummah and my regular Salat in Sunni Mosques (They allow everyone)we have seen one or two non muslim Hispanics who are accepting Islam on a weekly basis.
Yes indeed our Markaz should be open to all for prayers then we can go to Non Muslim to invite.
Might be the people from Kothar who are monitoring this site can answer some of the questions.
There are non muslims who are taking Misaq since they have married a Bohra girl, but again that Misaq and their conversion is just to please the parents of the bride, Most of the cases (there are few in Tampa Jamaat "just mentioned so the animal kingdom does not ask for proof") even the girl stops coming to Markaz and other activities
once she has married a non muslim bohra.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#6

Unread post by Muslim First » Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:44 pm

Br. OB

May be on another forum we can discuss difference between Markaz and Masjid experience.

Eid Mubark and Wasalaam

Africawala0000
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#7

Unread post by Africawala0000 » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:04 pm

Makaberi,
The Nizaris are known to be actively working to increase converts...atleast from wat i hve heard...i guess to attract converts u need funds and most converts wud be poor ppl so just more mouths to feed with little increase in income for the kothar!!!.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nizaris are not actively working to increase converts. People want to convert to our faith and are converting on their own. To discourage the converts, Ismailis have a long curriculum which the converts should satisfy. They have to learn the history of Ismailism, etc. Once they have accomplished that, they are given 6 months to reconsider their decision. 99% of the time the decision is in favour of conversion. Unlike other sister faiths, Ismailis do not have a one day conversion. It takes up to 3 years. We discourage conversion because we believe all faiths are true so conversion is not necessary but if people insist then we do not block them.

Yes, there are a lot of converts but no money is spent on conversion. We do not have a budget for that.

On the other hand we have Ismailis who leave the faith only to revert after a few years and there is no stopping them, or collecting money from them to revert. 30% of them do not come back but we do not hold on to them.

Poor people do not convert to Ismailism. What I have seen is highly educated people, and well read people. A twelver Sheikh/Scholar converted to Ismailism recently and has written a book on his research and his reasons. So kindly do not twist your facts. Provide facts that poor people have converted to Ismailism.

Africawala

turbocanuck
Posts: 1531
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#8

Unread post by turbocanuck » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:16 pm

Dear Makberi,
not true AT ALL. Nizari Ismailis are NOT seeking converts...i dont know where you get this information from, but please post facts about this if you can find any. please no......"he said, she said, friend of a friend". FYI, the procedure to convert to Ismailis is a VERY long drawn out.

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#9

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:27 pm

Welcome Sak. The claim that ours is a 'true faith' is no more than doctrinal propaganda. They can say what they want but it doesn't make it true. Besides, the act of calling people to faith - which was the original purpose of the Dawat - is not only old-fashioned but seems to have outlived its historical purpose as Inasf Sahab says.

More to the point, why don't they recruit people if they think theirs is true faith? Because they no longer treat faith as a cause or mission that they need to spread (which is a good thing actually) but more importantly, they treat it as a means to an end: to control and fleece the community. Religion is more of a business than all the high-falutin rhetoric they mouth about it. What they need to do is not so much spread their 'true faith' but actually try to live up to it. That is a minimum requirement, and that's what Bohras should be agitating about.

Smart
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#10

Unread post by Smart » Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:54 pm

@sak90

Till the beginning of the reign of Syedna Taher Saifuddin, the present incumbent's father, most of the theological issues were known to most bohras and in a majlis or waaz, Bohras could stand up and ask questions. The whole edifice was based on a set of principles and references which were the touch stones of the arguments.

With Syedna Taher Saifuddin arranging to collect all books and references of the daawat, with a contention that education without raza was dangerous. Now, no books remain with the laity. Over the last two generations this knowledge which was partly transmitted orally was lost.

I remember about 40 years ago the Muharram waaz would consists of a discourse based on the Fatemi dawat. Parables would be told, references cited, but now the waaz has basically three agendas, the first is a very abridged version of the Kerbala massacre of Imam Husain and his family. The second is a big ego trip based on how great the Syedna is. The third is very high intensity marsiya and maatam. The knowledge content is gradually tending to zero.

So if you observe carefully the bohra beliefs have systematically been transformed from being based on a certain set of principles to being based on loyalty to the person and not the position.

With this being the case, how is it possible to convert others? People will convert if they have a clearly defined set of principles and values to convert to. They don't convert if it is all about being loyal to a person. It is only those who are born into the system and conditioned from their childhood who continue. Even amongst them, some thinking individuals drift away and the gradual attrition is continuously happening.

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#11

Unread post by Aarif » Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:53 pm

What question is: If our's is the true faith, why don't we invite non muslims or even muslims for that matter to our Bohra faith? Isn't it simple logic, can't we make God happier by inviting people to the correct path?
My answer is as follows:

Even if Dawoodi Bohra clergy decide to convert all the muslims and non-muslims into bohras, I think muslims and non-muslims might not want to do that. Even though our community follows 7 pillers of Islam we are slowly moving away from true Islam. For most Bohras syedna is god. Our community has become a bunch of cult followers. Today bohras have become a laughing stock in the eyes of other muslims. Anybody who understands the basics of Islam would quickly be able to figure out that syedna has introduced endless innovations of his own. So definitely muslims understanding the pillers of Islam will never want to get converted into bohras because our community has deviated quite a bit from true Islam due to meherbani of syedna. Apart from that a non-muslim who wants to embrace Islam will go with the mainstream muslims. Our community is very small and many people do not even know about our existence. In fact we are not even 1% of the entire muslim population in the world.

BTW: Who told you that ours is true faith??? I am sure he/she is abde syedna. Otherwise he/she would never have said this in first place... ;)

sakeena1990
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#12

Unread post by sakeena1990 » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:35 am

Almost all of you are of the opinion that ismailism is an elitist/rich sect and therefore ordinary muslims won't convert. My problem is Prophet, his early followers and his household were all poor and we are giving them a wrong precedence by shutting the poor out. If we build this false pride we are destined to perish sooner than later.

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#13

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:26 am

sakeena1990 wrote:Almost all of you are of the opinion that ismailism is an elitist/rich sect and therefore ordinary muslims won't convert.
Yes, the Bohra priesthood is rich and elitist but in a highly persverse and corrupt way. I fail to understand why "ordinary muslims" have to covert to anything. They are Muslims, isn't that good enough?

Muslim
Posts: 408
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#14

Unread post by Muslim » Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:53 pm

Sakeena,
Good questions. The title of the 'dai' apparently means missionary but the mission appears to be restricted internally. I don't think anybody in their right mind would want to convert to Bohraism in its current form with its current obsession with Syedna. It would stand a better chance once its returns to its core Ismaili beliefs. Secondly, I don't think the clergy sees it in its best interest to attract the attention of outsiders who would undoubtedly challenge the doctorine of blind faith and therefore affect its earnings and control of the community.

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#15

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:24 pm

Hey Muslim,

Good to see you again. It's been a long while.

Improvisator
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:37 pm

Re: Question to all Bohras

#16

Unread post by Improvisator » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:43 pm

The doors for accepting our religion are wide open. If you accept the customs then you come and join our community, if not, there is no force. Stay where you are, rather than joining and then mocking.

East Africawalla
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#17

Unread post by East Africawalla » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:52 am

Our religion is now based on you being part of it if you are born in it, we do not try to convert people to join us , its not part of our agenda
Only on special cases of marrying into the community we request conversion.

We are more now like the Jewish faith.You are lucky to be born in it.

Also we have tried to bring back the reformist back into the fold and are having success as they are also momeens.

If you believe in our faith then surely you will accept this.

sakeena1990
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#18

Unread post by sakeena1990 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:23 am

"Our religion is now based on you being part of it if you are born in it, we do not try to convert people to join us , its not part of our agenda.
Only on special cases of marrying into the community we request conversion.
We are more now like the Jewish faith.You are lucky to be born in it"

I don't know if this is a healthy attitude. How can you say its not in our agenda? If the Prophet (s) had the same attitude islam would have been extinct long time ago. He set missionaries abroad, he spread the message of God to all corners of the world didn't he?

So if you wanna go to heaven all you have to have is luck???????

S. Insaf
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#19

Unread post by S. Insaf » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:55 pm

If you accept the customs then you come and join our community.
Dear Improvisator, can you define the customs that you are talking about.

I believe they are 1) Apology 2) Misaq 3) unconditional submission to exploitative Kothar, Sajda to mortal human beings, silently paying the wajebat, sabil, najwa, demanded amount for vadhavni, kadambosi, darees, Ziyafat, salams, musallah spaces, renovation of mosques and mazar and zarihs. Further remain silent when valuable properties of the community are sold off, converted in commercial projects like shopping malls. Stop questioning the functioning in various institutes like hospital, schools, Jamia etc. Accepting the foolish ideas of immature Amils. Bear every humiliation inflicted by arrogant Amils upon Jamat members. In short supporting all money-making schemes of Kothar and overlooking the degeneration of the community.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#20

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:08 pm

We are more now like the Jewish faith.
If the Syedna had allowed his slaves to read and understand the quran, they wouldn't be making statements like this. If the bohras are now like the jewish faith, the sooner people start getting out of it, the better. The quran has made the destiny of the jewish faith, as it is practiced today and during the time of the prophet, pretty clear in the quran.

Smart
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#21

Unread post by Smart » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:03 pm

@sakeena
It is a fact that Bohras don't preach and convert others. Yet they claim that nobody will go to heaven without the Syedna. Which really means you have to be a Bohra by birth to go to heaven. Anybody with a modicum of sense of Justice will not be convinced of this. Bohras are 0.02% of the world's population. Does it mean Allah has created 99.98% of the population just to send them to hell?

You have raised a very valid point. The conclusion that can be drawn from this is that either
1. Allah does not believe in Justice, he punishes people for his acts - Astaghferullah. OR
2. The claim is not valid.

Common sense, tells me that the first alternative cannot be right. Which means...

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#22

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:12 pm

East Africawalla wrote:...we have tried to bring back the reformist back into the fold ....
Those who have gone back to the so-called "fold" are the ones who have abandoned the reformist cause. You're having some successes because it takes guts, patience and perseverance to stay the course and fight the corrupt priestly class.
sakeena1990 wrote:I don't know if this is a healthy attitude. How can you say its not in our agenda? ....
So if you wanna go to heaven all you have to have is luck???????
Sakeena, pls understand that the Bohra mission is not worth spreading, and even if they tried nobody in the right mind would want to become a Bohra. Muslims (non-Arab) already have enough burdens to bear - alien religion and culture, ignorance, poverty, illiteracy, social and political discrimination - why do want to add another layer of priestly oppression in their lives?

As for heaven, there ain't one to go to. It's a figment of conventional human imagination.
anajmi wrote:The quran has made the destiny of the jewish faith, as it is practiced today and during the time of the prophet, pretty clear in the quran.
Actually, the truth and destiny of the whole universe/reality is pretty clear: emptiness.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#23

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:23 pm

Actually, the truth and destiny of the whole universe/reality is pretty clear: emptiness.
Emptiness all around means you've got nowhere to go. Would that be the reason why the progressive cause is going nowhere?

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#24

Unread post by Danish » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:24 pm

anajmi wrote:
Would that be the reason why the progressive cause is going nowhere?
The progressives are furtively and cautiously advancing and evolving. I may not agree with everything they profess but they are a sure sign of reformation, which speaks volumes over stagnant, incurable and degraded regimes like yours.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#25

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:32 pm

Danish,

I am the example of an evolved and advanced progressive, no longer trying to cling onto a corrupt Dai :D

Danish
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#26

Unread post by Danish » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:41 pm

anajmi wrote:Danish,

I am the example of an evolved and advanced progressive, no longer trying to cling onto a corrupt Dai :D
What??? Only a foolish person would utter the above statement after making the following statement:
anajmi wrote:Would that be the reason why the progressive cause is going nowhere?

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#27

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:25 pm

I am a progressive, not the progressive cause. LOL :lol:

like_minded
Posts: 1260
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#28

Unread post by like_minded » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:38 am

What question is: If our's is the true faith, why don't we invite non muslims or even muslims for that matter to our Bohra faith? Isn't it simple logic, can't we make God happier by inviting people to the correct path? I mean if people out there are misled or deviated from the straight path why don't we embrace them? Instead why are we such a secretive "sect"?? Why are we encouraged to conceal our beliefs and cut ourselves off from other muslims sects?


Faith is something which every human being is born with, It is there and it will remain till ofcourse one dies. There is no need to emphasize on faith, as it is already very strong in every individual.

Imagine if we had no faith in us at all... It'd be almost impossible to live as we'd then start doubting everything and it'd be practically impossible to survive.

Religion of the worlds have deliberately taken us far from this reality, therefore inducing false sense of fear and then have projected this "faith" which acts like opium.

If we talk about dawoodi bohras... It has gone far beyond all this.. It has turned into a CULT.

Smart
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#29

Unread post by Smart » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:34 am

^
Yes Bohras have evolved into a cult. It has all the attributes of one.
See this thread http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=79

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Question to all Bohras

#30

Unread post by accountability » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:32 pm

"So if you wanna go to heaven all you have to have is luck"

Add khushi and raza along, and give some fakhir wajebat.

On the serious note: Quran describes the path to heaven

Wamay ya'mal miskala zarratin khayrayyara
Wamay ya'mal miskal zarratin sharrayyara

every good deed will be rewarded
every evil deed will be punished.

mind it, it does not say, that only bohra's good deeds, or muslim's good deed will be rewarded. it gives a universal value to enter the place of peace and tranquility (religion(s) call it heaven).